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Thai Air Force seals deal for Swedish Gripen jets
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- verdverm 1y agoA lot of countries are learning lessons from the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the world's reaponses
- alephnerd 1y agoThailand wanted the F-35 [0], but the we will not give it to them given how close the Thai government has become to China after the junta [1]. Their junta and King wants to keep Thailand as an authoritarian illiberal democracy. The Biden admin on the other hand strongly opposed democratic backsliding in Thailand [2] As a result, they - like Cambodia - decided to flip to China. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/thailand-air-force-says-us-has-denied-request-buy-f-35-jets-2023-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/thailand-... [1] - https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/06/17/china-thailand-submarines-military-influence/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/06/17/china-thailand-submarin... [2] - https://asia.nikkei.com/politics/turbulent-thailand/thailand-belittled-again-as-u.s.-ostracizes-it-from-democracy-summit https://asia.nikkei.com/politics/turbulent-thailand/thailand...
- Hikikomori 1y agoI for one welcome our new Chinese overloads.
- alephnerd 1y agoIt's a side effect of democracy promotion. We the US cannot have a values based foreign policy - all that matters is power. Cambodian and Thai leadership wants to retain power, so they decided to work with the Chinese - who don't care if you are an autocracy or a democracy, while we tried to make an example out of Thailand (and Cambodia) for regressing into authoritarian military governments. We the US need to return to the same mercenary foreign policy. We are starting to do that again with rappoachment to Pakistan, shielding Israel, and arm twisting the Europeans. Welcome to a multipolar world - only the powerful can set the rules.
- Cyph0n 1y agoNo, it’s a side effect of US hypocrisy. We apply “standards” - or at least claim to - in some cases but not others. We apply or seek to apply international law in some cases but not others. There was never a true values-based foreign policy. It has always been nothing more than holier than thou posturing.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoAny sufficiently complex system has hypocrisy.
- Hikikomori 1y agoCrazy take if you know anything about Americas meddling in South America and other parts of the world.
- Barrin92 1y ago>arm twisting This is exactly why countries are deciding to reduce their dependence on the US. If you're one president or one policy away from being cut off from technology, tariffed to death or otherwise bullied you're going to choose other partners. Politics is about power, that much is true. But power exercised with restraint. China isn't increasing its influence by arm twisting but the opposite. Simply saying "we're open for business" and not interfering in the domestic politics of other countries as long as that's reciprocated. This is effectively a reversal of the Cold War, which they learned a lesson from. Acting like the Soviet Union isn't going to serve the US well. The more you look like a desperate empire in its late stages losing its grip, replacing mutual benefit with brutality the faster you're done. That ought to be the lesson of the 20th century.
- jacquesm 1y agoYou forgot about 'or threatened with invasion'. That's the big one.
- axus 1y agoInteresting that Cambodia is the recent adversary they want the jets for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Cambodia%E2%80%93Thailand_border_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2025_Cambodia%E2%80%93Thailand... My brief research says Cambodia was using old Soviet and Chinese stuff, with some UAV support.
- alephnerd 1y agoYep! They are! But in the 2010s we helped Cambodia transition into a democracy, build an independent press (a number of Cambodian journalists used to be HN users back in the day), invest in rural healthcare expansion, and even sponsored Hun Sen's son to study in the US. The Cambodian leadership didn't want any of that. They wanted to continue to rule as an oligarchy, and Western development funds came with oversight requirements and American firms followed the FCPA. On the other hand, Chinese vendors were fine paying bribes to leadership in Cambodia and ignoring rising criminality (it was a win-win for China as well - they were able to "convince" organized crime to leave China). China's elite centric approach [0][1] to foreign relations is better than grassroots democracy promotion that a subset of Americans believed in. If Cambodia or Serbia or Thailand's leadership want to remain a dictatorship or oligarchy, let them. It's not our problem. Our commitment to democracy should be within our borders. Let other countries be dictatorships or democracies as long as they align with our interests. This is what China and Russia does. [0] - https://www.iseas.edu.sg/articles-commentaries/iseas-perspective/2023-101-reviewing-chinas-elite-centric-approach-in-its-relations-with-cambodia-by-chhay-lim/ https://www.iseas.edu.sg/articles-commentaries/iseas-perspec... [1] - https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/lost-translation-china-s-elite-centric-approach-cambodia https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/lost-translati...
- throwaway7801 1y agoYes, the Chinese are horrible people. Only if these countries could look into Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Vietnam, and on and on, they would realise that the Americans are indeed the trustworthy and reliable partner.
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- MaxPock 1y agoThe real joke is that the US or Biden cared about democracy in Thailand.
- pimlottc 1y agoWhat do you mean specifically here?
- alephnerd 1y agoHe's implying the Gripen deal was a result of Trump. In reality, the US-Thailand relationship has been dead since the Junta took over in Thailand, and for domestic brownie points we decided to make an example out of them and Cambodia for democratic backsliding during the Biden admin [3] Edit: cannot reply below (@Dang am I being rate limited) The US has consistently rejected Thailand's F-35 request under the Biden admin [0][1]. If forced to buy a 4th gen jet, may as well buy the cheapest option on the market, which is the Gripen, as they have been using the Gripen for decades [2]. European affairs have little to do with affairs in Asia. [0] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/thailand-air-force-says-us-has-denied-request-buy-f-35-jets-2023-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/thailand-... [1] - https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/thailand-f35-02162022155156.html https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/thailand-f35-02162022... [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/business/autos-transportation/thailand-to-buy-six-swedish-gripen-fighters-idUSBKK122272/ https://www.reuters.com/article/business/autos-transportatio... [3] - https://asia.nikkei.com/politics/turbulent-thailand/thailand-belittled-again-as-u.s.-ostracizes-it-from-democracy-summit https://asia.nikkei.com/politics/turbulent-thailand/thailand...
- culi 1y agoBut Thailand is far from alone in this move away from US weapons. Spain cancelled their bid for F-35s and Switzerland is looking into doing the same. Denmark recently expressed regret over their purchase of F-35s. Portugal and Canada also both lost interest in American F-35s recently. It could just be tariff backlash—aircraft have historically been the US' largest export. But I do wonder if the recent tests of US military tech in Russia/Iran had any hand in this
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- fabian2k 1y agoNo idea what the reasons are in this specific case, but these kinds of military procurements are inherently tied to the political side. Planes like this quickly become paperweights if you can't get replacements parts, support and ammunition. And most buyers won't be able to get significant parts of the construction into their countries. So you must trust the political stability of the country you're buying from, that they're still your friend in a decade or a few and support your planes. Trump and his administration are anything but reliable partners.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- neonate 1y agohttps://archive.md/y6jr5 https://archive.md/y6jr5
- culi 1y agoToday, Thailand decided to go with Swedish Gripen jets over F-16s. A week ago, Spain chose the Eurofighter over the F-35[0] and Switzerland seems to be considering a similar move.[1] Before that the Pentagon halved its funding for the F-35 program.[2] Criticism of the F-35's status as a "hangar queen" have been around a long time[3] and seem to be increasingly prominent. California—the world's 4th largest economy—'s biggest export is airplane parts.[4] Is California in for a reckoning as the world seems to be increasingly rejecting US weapons technology? [0] https://www.businessinsider.com/spain-rejects-f-35-for-european-alternative-continent-anxious-us-2025-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/spain-rejects-f-35-for-europ... [1] https://breakingdefense.com/2025/08/switzerland-weighs-cuts-to-f-35-order-amid-cost-dispute-tariff-pressure/ https://breakingdefense.com/2025/08/switzerland-weighs-cuts-... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-slashes-half-its-request-lockheeds-f-35-fighter-jets-bloomberg-news-reports-2025-06-11/ https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/us-slashe... [3] https://web.archive.org/web/20210317192541/https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/mar/15/its-time-to-divorce-the-f-35-hangar-queen/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210317192541/https://www.washi... [4] https://www.worldstopexports.com/californias-top-10-exports/ https://www.worldstopexports.com/californias-top-10-exports/
- dralley 1y ago>Before that the Pentagon halved its funding for the F-35 program.[2] This is so misleading. They cut this year's orders of the F-35 in half. That's not even close to the same thing as cutting funding for the program in half. Part of that funding was even reallocated towards streamlining the supply chains and improving maintainence practices.
- mongol 1y agoBrazil chose Gripen very soon after it Snowden leaks had revealed had intercepted Dilma Rouseff personal communications. I will be lazy here and paste a ChatGPT summary since I recalled the outline but not the details: It’s very likely it played a significant role in the final choice — not necessarily as the only reason, but as a decisive tie-breaker. Here’s why: 1. Timing was suspiciously close Snowden’s NSA revelations came out in mid-2013. Rousseff’s UN speech condemning U.S. spying was in September 2013. Brazil announced the Saab Gripen NG selection in December 2013 — just three months later. 2. Boeing’s bid was politically radioactive Even if the Air Force had rated the F/A-18 highly, the president would have had to approve the purchase. After the scandal, a U.S. fighter buy would have looked domestically like ignoring a national insult. 3. Public and congressional pressure Brazilian media hammered the NSA issue for months, and opposition politicians would have used a U.S. aircraft deal as evidence of weakness or hypocrisy. 4. The other contenders were “good enough” Gripen NG wasn’t the cheapest in sticker price (Rafale was more expensive), but it was competitive in capability and far stronger in technology transfer terms. That made it easy to justify dropping the U.S. option without taking a big performance hit. My assessment: If the NSA scandal hadn’t happened, Boeing would still have faced challenges on tech transfer, but it would likely have been the Gripen or F/A-18 in the final decision. With the scandal, the F/A-18 had near-zero chance — the scandal probably moved the Gripen from “contender” to “winner.”
- daveaiello 1y agoThis deal is for four (4) jets, according to the SCMP. With respect to everybody reading this, I'm not prepared to read anything into a purchase of four jets.
- John23832 1y agoTotal thai airfare is 112 capable aircraft. That includes the various types. 4 fighters in the context of a small airforce is a lot.
- daveaiello 1y agoI can appreciate that perspective as well.
- hunglee2 1y agoYou basically cannot trust the US at this point - Trump is so mercurial, that any possible scenario, however ostensibly unrealistic, now has to be factored into the equation. Doesn't get better when Trump gets removed in 3 years, it has been proven now that US democracy can produce any kind of result and hence persistent unreliability most now be the default
- Fordec 1y agoIf removed in 3 years. So many societal norms are being broken, what's one more. It sounds hyperbolic to say out loud because it usually is, but we're dealing with any possible scenario here.
- RajT88 1y agoTrump will be gone in 3 years, dead or degraded into a bowl of racist jello. It seems clear that the plan is to game the system as much as possible before then so Republicans never have to win an election again. If they can do that, they don't need Trump - the Trump administration will live on.
- tyleo 1y agoI agree with this though I wouldn’t be surprised if they can’t manage without Trump. Republicans aren’t some consistent viewpoint. It’s a big tent that’s (somehow) united by Trump. Even if Republicans came to completely dominate politics, they may have their own schism and we end up back in two party land. Thought that may still be a more chaotic two party land than we have today. Who knows what the future brings.
- Hikikomori 1y agoIt's not so much the republican party anymore, it's project 2025 people and the federalist society, Christian fascists funded by people like Thiel and built on the plans of Curtis Yarvin. They'll still be there after trump as they are his entire cabinet, Vance is in deep on it so succession is already secured, they'll rig or cheat elections to keep political power. Part of project 2025 was a CV database so they could insert sycophants in all levels of unelected government positions as well. They're entrenched and chipping away at election integrity every day.
- mensetmanusman 1y agoGood, the EU needs its own defense industry.
- zppln 1y agoMore specifically, we could use our own engine. Gripen E still rely on the GE F414. Europe has nothing to rival the P&W F135.
- cm2187 1y agoMy limited understanding is that the F135 is massively over-powered to be capable of VTOL + push through the bulky shape of the F35, resulting in a disappointing range. I don't know that it would make sense to use it on a different platform.
- zppln 1y agoI was thinking more in terms of it being a newer design. From what I've gathered there's some work being done on new engine designs within the FCAS program, but I have no idea how it's going.
- adgjlsfhk1 1y agoThat just means it's the right size engine for a bigger plane without vtol.
- rjsw 1y agoThe Gripen could have been designed around one Eurojet EJ200 or Snecma M88.
- ta20240528 1y agoNo longer: Gripens are now offered with the Rolls Royce EJ230 engine.
- jeffrallen 1y agoOoh, now do Switzerland! We stupidly chose the stupid F-35, an airplane that couldn't even fly even if the Americans ssh'd in to let it.
- john-h-k 1y agoThe F35 overran on time and budget, sure, but it’s still an insanely good aircraft. I think the public perception that it’s a “failure” is a mistake
- jeffrallen 1y agoThen maybe ask the pilots who doubt whether it can keep them alive, let alone accomplish a mission. Or look at the ready time versus maintenance time ratio. Military hardware exists to achieve a certain mission. Having some insanely great engineering figures Mena's nothing if the hardware is too unreliable to get the job done.
- bigyabai 1y ago"insanely good" is still an exaggeration. It performs worse than the Gripen to carry a smaller payload a shorter distance, all sacrifices for a stealth feature you won't need outside hostile airspace or to launch standoff attacks. It is a suitable fit for America's JSF program, and a pretty dubious platform for almost everyone else. You don't see the F-35 in deployment abroad too often because it's not really needed unless you intend to molest neighboring airspace. Unless you're Washington or Tel Aviv, it's hard justifying the cost.
- namuol 1y agoCambodia nominated Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize for his administration’s apparent role in their recent ceasefire negotiations with Thailand: https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501734313/cambodia-officially-nominates-donald-trump-for-nobel-peace-prize/ https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501734313/cambodia-officially-n... Unclear if this is some kind of reactionary retaliation for perceived favorability toward Cambodia or if Trump’s apparently favorability toward Cambodia is retaliation for what he may have already known about Thailand’s shift toward EU weaponry. They’re hardly the first country to start shopping around, so the latter wouldn’t surprise me.
- throwaway5752 1y agoThis is not some reciprocal action, it's just logical fallout that the US is no longer reliable as a military ally under this administration, and capable of electing similar leadership in the future. Much, much more of this is ahead. It will impact the USD.
- nxobject 1y agoLooks like Thailand's no longer in a rush to get a "final" tariff deal, even if we're stuck at a 19% rate. (I think our flag carrier might be refreshing its fleet exclusively with Boeing to sweeten the deal.)
- sureglymop 1y agoSwitzerland also has an open fixed-price deal for 36 F-35s. The US are trying to alter the deal and raise the price to ~1 billion USD more than agreed to. I wish Switzerland would do the same and cancel the deal. On top of that Switzerland should go a step further and impose a tax on gold exported to the united states if they don't stop with their silly little 39% tariffs on imported Swiss goods. Just ridiculous and embarrassing to sever long running trade relationships out of ignorance.
- mcmcmc 1y agoThere is no such thing as a tariff on exports. Tariffs are specifically an import tax intended to increase domestic demand for domestically produced goods by shifting it away from imported goods
- blktiger 1y agoI think he meant export taxes or export duties.
- mrandish 1y ago> There is no such thing as a tariff on exports. That's correct, or at least it was until this week. Did you happen to see the recent announcement where NVidia and AMD are now apparently required to pay 15% of the revenue from GPUs exported to China to the U.S. government? This is apparently GPUs which were, prior to this new 15% payment, "too harmful to our national security" to export to China. Frankly, I only saw the headlines and haven't looked into it myself yet - mostly because it makes my head hurt trying to even tally the laws, policies and trade agreements doing this would probably violate. So, I'm admittedly unclear on the details but it sure sounds like an "export tariff".
- singleshot_ 1y agoMy limited understanding is that this is going to be an offset against the applicable import tariff, not an export tariff.
- deadbabe 1y agoHow does one become a broker for military jets and does it pay well?
- poniko 1y agoWhen we want to sell fighter jets and Karl Gustav rockets we send the King of Sweden to pander the deal. There have been some debacle over a few suitcases with bribes as well but hey that's probably a good paying job.
- bdhcuidbebe 1y agoIn Sweden, by being prime minister, aka arms dealer Göran Persson selling JAS to south africa: https://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/bokrecensioner/a/Rx6p1r/jas-affaren-en-krasch-for-svensk-demokrati https://www.aftonbladet.se/kultur/bokrecensioner/a/Rx6p1r/ja... magdalena andersson wants to sell JAs to phillipines: https://www.svd.se/a/y6lrBg/sverige-kan-salja-jas-gripen-till-filippinerna https://www.svd.se/a/y6lrBg/sverige-kan-salja-jas-gripen-til... the current Ulf Kristersson government is making money under the table selling jas to hungary: https://www.placera.se/telegram/saab-statssekreterare-kopte-saab-aktier-dagen-innan-jas-affaren-med-ungern-aftonbladet-20250514 https://www.placera.se/telegram/saab-statssekreterare-kopte-... sweden also sold jas to brazil. notice how sweden is selling arms to dictators and crap countries?
- actionfromafar 1y ago900 dollar profit. Heads should roll.
- Stevvo 1y agoAll of those countries are democracies. Hungary is a member of the EU and NATO. "Crap countries" is just vague racism.
- impossiblefork 1y agoWe don't just sell Gripens to Brazil. They're our friends.
- Animats 1y agoThe Gripen is a good choice for geographically small countries. It's able to operate from airstrips that are no more than roads, with modest mobile ground equipment for support. Saab commercial for the Gripen: [1] The USAF's force model involves basing at big, well-equipped, well-protected air bases. Those are now hard to protect from drone attacks, as Russia recently found out. From now on, air forces have to be able to operate from improvised bases, or build very strong bunkers at major bases. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyD0liioY8E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyD0liioY8E
- echelon 1y ago> It's able to operate from airstrips that are no more than roads I can understand this argument. > The USAF's force model involves basing at big, well-equipped, well-protected air bases. But I don't understand this one. Isn't a drone attack a drone attack? The same drones that could take out F-16s could take out Gripens. You'd have to defend your expensive weapon systems in either case. Don't we need a new strategy that isn't entirely reliant upon extremely powerful, but extremely expensive hardware? I'd imagine you still want your expensive pieces, but that you want a compliment of inexpensive combat items and fortified bunkers as a line of defense to protect them when not deployed.
- freeopinion 1y agoI admit I didn't read the article. Is the Gripen 40% cheaper so that countries can own more of them? Also smaller airbases can mean more airbases. So a single drone attack might take out one or two bases worth of Gripen. But it takes a lot more drones and a lot more sophisticated attack to take out all the Gripen spread across so many small bases.
- dralley 1y agoGripen is more expensive to purchase than the F-35 and F-16. The operating costs are a bit cheaper than the F-16 and substantially cheaper than the F-35 however.
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- more_corn 1y agoI wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that nobody wants to do business with a damned bully.
- reactordev 1y agoI mean, I would buy a Gripen over an F-16 anyday. However, the view from the F-16 cockpit is matched only by the F-22/F-35. damn near 360 degree bubble view.
- bdhcuidbebe 1y agoDisgusting war profitering. Sweden should not make such deals with a country attacking their neighbor.
- itsmartapuntocm 1y agoGood thing Sweden isn’t selling jets to Cambodia then.
- ta20240528 1y agoAny idea if its with the GE engine or the Roll Royce engine recently announced?