7 ms·

Are you willing to pay $100k a year per developer on AI?

64 points by rntn 1y ago

austin-cheney 1y ago
Nope. I would consider the opposite. I would pay more for candidates not reliant on frameworks, AI, and other helpers.
- taylodl 1y ago
  That's just being silly. We've been using frameworks for over 30 years. I remember the days before frameworks. Software was developed at a pace nobody would tolerate today. They're a productivity boost - a significant productivity boost. AI? In the hands of a craftsman AI is just another tool that can help boost productivity. In the hands of a junior developer trying to use AI to make it appear that they're a senior developer - no. There are too many downside risks in that scenario because the junior developer doesn't have enough experience to know when the tool is providing bad results.
  - austin-cheney 1y ago
    I hear this a lot and it is mathematically incorrect. Frameworks solve two business problems: 1. Candidate selection 2. Clearer division of labor That’s it. Everything else is an imaginary quality from the developer. In most cases the well reasoned arguments from developers in favor of large frameworks can be performed faster without the frameworks, both in human writing speed and software execution speed. Typically these imaginary qualities taken a defensive tone from developers who have never learned to execute without the frameworks, which becomes an argument from ignorance because you know what you are arguing for but not what you are arguing against. At any rate the result is the same that the article makes about AI: output of brittle toolchains.
    - orsorna 1y ago
      I'll take a bite and be a defensive developer. I really can't put frameworks in the same bucket as AI. At least frameworks describe an abstract model for a developer to rationalize and think through. AI allows (but doesn't mandate) a developer to write code that they don't understand. Perhaps I've worked on business logic so long instead of esoteric efforts; what real world use case would benefit from not leveraging a framework where applicable? In fact, I see your publicly posted resume; are there really developers out there rawdogging Javascript? What problem space do you hire for that mandates the ignorance of >15 years of JS libraries? And does your business pays above market rate for these skilled developers? Without understanding the problem space I just assume your business tries to hire talented people at exploitative wages. Regardless it appears to be a staggering waste of talent unless the higher quality significantly reduces the cost center of downtime, bugs etc (I find this hard to believe)
      - austin-cheney 1y ago
        > In fact, I see your publicly posted resume; are there really developers out there rawdogging Javascript? What problem space do you hire for that mandates the ignorance of >15 years of JS libraries? Performance, security, and portability to start. If you work in a high security environment you should expect to NOT have access to things like Maven or NPM. I hear so very many people on HN and the real world complain about web bloat. Even the people who contribute to that bloat and cannot live without the contributing factors complain about it. As somebody who is only writing personal software now and working in a completely unrelated field I certainly wouldn't punish myself with bloat that requires far more work than executing without it.
    - taylodl 1y ago
      Okay. I've been developing software for 40 years now. Frameworks became a thing a little over 30 years ago. Industry productivity soared - so much so that that was our last big productivity boost in the industry. There are a myriad of other benefits from using frameworks, so many in fact that to me it's a red flag when someone advocates against them. With regards to AI, like I said in my original comment it's a tool, not a panacea. Experienced software tradesmen are learning how to effectively wield AI - hint: it's not for writing all your code. I'm kind of excited because we could be on the verge of another great productivity boost like we experienced 30 years ago when we adopted frameworks.
      - austin-cheney 1y ago
        The biggest red flag I have against frameworks is that its a leaky abstraction that induces human insecurity. I have been doing this a very long time and it always comes up. Always. People cannot architect because they expect this to be a solved problem. People cannot execute outside what the framework provides, because they are deathly afraid of writing original code. People can't measure things because they have no reason to once they are locked into their framework conventions. Every decision point becomes a defensive game reasoned around the idea of "I can't*. That is the primary reason I wanted to change employment from writing JavaScript to something else. If I could find JavaScript employment without this insanity then maybe I will reconsider my options. I see AI as more of the same.
    - brianmcc 1y ago
      I mean maybe if you hear it a lot, there's a reason for that? Frameworks may not bring magical perfection but they bring a lot of objective benefit to the table.
      - austin-cheney 1y ago
        Yes, many developers cannot program.
- reactordev 1y ago
  I don't think you want a web service written in assembly.
  - austin-cheney 1y ago
    I honestly don't think the user cares.
- AtlasBarfed 1y ago
  At the stage of the AI is currently which really is a very good code generator, what you really should see is a higher valuation of people with all the fundamentals of computer science and a breadth of experience about what you can do in programming. Contrasted with specific acronyms frameworks, languages and similar buzzwords that dominate computing recruitment. If you have a tool that can basically take someone who's really good at programming, architecture, analysis, etc, and eliminates the barriers of domain specific knowledge, syntax idiosyncracies, library peculiarities away .. It should mean a talented IT professional should actually be more useful across more domains. And hiring should reflect that. It's hard to tell right now because hiring is zero apparently. For example, I haven't coded at rust. I have encoded in c++ in 20 years. Assuming of course that I am a genius, which of course I am right? Assuming that, llm should allow me to both code in a language I don't have a lot of experience in, and adapt to you or enterprises particular code base far more quickly. Does my value go up? Probably not. Because now I compete with everyone else. That's pretty smart without domain barriers. That's a large increase in supply. However, large amounts of IT people who don't even know the basics of computer science architecture or those types of things, Will not have any real value compared to an llm. With the hypnosis of the executives, they do not see a difference between those two different types of professional. They see an IT budget that they want to axe. One of the fundamental tensions in it management/labor dispute is that someone that manages and maintains a service and codes... is actually a manager. Good it professionals are providing both technical service and managerial service to a company. Consider what computers used to do. There used to be a room full of actual human computers on calculators doing things, and of course, a manager that oversight oversaw them. That manager was clearly considered part of the managerial class. Then came computers and the room of people disappeared and you still had a manager managing an IT application. But without the head count, Management decided that that person wasn't a manager or a member of the manager class. Yet they had to pay him like that. See. I think ultimately llms are taking away some of the technical overhead on managing and Enterprise system for a company. But it still needs to be managed. And that person will still be "IT". And if you don't pay that person reasonably well, your Enterprise will suffer.
  - austin-cheney 1y ago
    The first half of your comment mentioned the word should 5 times. This sounds like wishful thinking. Yes, there are some fundamental skill deficits and a lot of liars out there. The historical solution to this problem is to ignore it, use some tool to flatten the bell curve, and then hope for the best. If AI is just an evolution of things already tried, then we already know what the results will look like: less accountability, less credibility, less selection risks for candidate selection, and more expensive development processes. For example frameworks allowed substantially wider developer participation at lower product quality and high costs without change to business ambitions. We should expect developers to become more of a less capable commodity than they already were. Then when the technical debt becomes to expensive to maintain just call in consultants to tell everybody what is already commonly known.
felipeerias 1y ago
To save you a click: no, the author does not provide any source for the headline.
- Jedd 1y ago
  > To save you a click: no, the author does not provide any source for the headline. TFA kind of did, with the '20-30 dollars per person, per month, across an organisation' quote / comment - though they didn't do the math for you. But that range of monthly spend only needs 220-400 ish people to reach the headline figure of $100k. Whether that's good value, who can say.
  - malfist 1y ago
    With a large code base and big context windows, it's easy to blow past the $20-30 allocation in an hour
  - CamelCaseName 1y ago
    100K, per developer?
    - Jedd 1y ago
      Oh, I overlooked that bit. The math on the 'if costs keep rising' bit of the story would take a hefty amount of (the bad type of) oversight to get to that figure per developer, yes.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  I think they read this nonsense: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44867312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44867312
  - felipeerias 1y ago
    Possibly, although at least that article tried to justify the $100k with some handwaving about multiple agents working in parallel with minimal human supervision. Unfortunately, people are swallowing the headline without any critical thinking.
reactordev 1y ago
>Smarter financial people than me, which wouldn't take much At least they admit they have no idea what they are talking about.
- Quarrelsome 1y ago
  for me, an admission of lack of authority is a green flag, not a red one.
htrp 1y ago
you're basically recreating contract dev model at this point.
jvanderbot 1y ago
I'm fairly certain these companies should pivot to selling / licensing AI "s/w drivers" for commodity consumer hardware that enables all these apps to run local-first or local-only. The token cost stopped decaying as expected, as mentioned by the original 100,000k post on HN, and the move nowadays is towards more context to keep building functionality. The cost is just going to go up for inference. These companies might be better off splitting their focus between training and tooling, and canning all the capex/opex associated with inferrence. Forget S/W engineers for a moment ... Every white collar worker I know, especially non technical folks, use ChatGPT all the time, and believe that is AI at this point. That demand isn't going to vanish overnight. The counter argument is usually "They'll sell data", but I'm not sure you can double the number of trillion dollar data companies without some dilution of the market, and reach a billion devices / users without nation-state level infra.
- stingraycharles 1y ago
  It’s basically the old “what Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away” but then with NVidia and AI shops. Models get more computationally expensive as they start doing more things, and an equilibrium will be found what people are willing to pay per token. I do expect the quality of output to increase incrementally, not exponentially, as models start using more compute. The real problem begins when companies like NVidia can’t make serious optimizations anymore, but history has proven that this seems unlikely.
  - keeda 1y ago
    What Jensen giveth, Altman taketh away.
- msgodel 1y ago
  Has it? Google has free inference for their smallest hosted model now. I'm pretty sure that's where this ends.
  - jvanderbot 1y ago
    Has what? The smallest networks are probably cheap enough they are a decent loss leader.
Suzuran 1y ago
We don't even want to pay $100k a year per developer for developers.
- amelius 1y ago
  That's because with human developers we can't get our money back if they make mistakes.
  - rootnod3 1y ago
    Can you get money back with AI if they make mistakes? They are more prone to mistakes especially on larger scales in my opinion.
JCM9 1y ago
This is all a familiar pattern. In the early days of ride share it was an amazing advancement and very cheap, because it was highly subsidized. The quality was decent, and certainly better than taxi and car services in most cities. Tons of ride share app companies popped up. Then reality set in. Costs were raised so they weren’t losing money anymore. Rideshare became more of a commodity and competitors got squeezed out as there wasn’t much room to compete and make money. Service quality went downhill. Uber is generally reliable but the quality has fallen off a cliff. My last car smelled bad and the rear axel sounded like was about to fall off the car. In most cities at the airport I just walk outside and get an old fashioned taxi at the rank vs dealing with all the nonsense regulations forcing one to walking to some remote corner of a parking garage for the “ride share pickup” zone. GenAI is entering that pivot point. The products have plateaued. There’s pressure to stop the loss leaders and set prices to a more realistic level. Services are becoming commoditized. It’s not going away but we’re entering a period of rapid consolidation. GenAI will still be here in a few years and will be useful, but like rideshare the allure will wear old and we’ll look at these things like we do spell checkers today. Something everyone uses but ultimately boring commoditized tech where there’s not a lot of money to be made. A useful feature to add to actual products. I do think there’s some good opportunity to shift to locally run small models, but that too will just become commoditized spell-checker level tech.
- JimDabell 1y ago
  > In the early days of ride share it was an amazing advancement and very cheap, because it was highly subsidized. This is not an analogous situation. Inference APIs aren’t subsidised, and I’m not sure the monthly plans are any more either. AI startups burn a huge amount of money on providing free service to drive growth. That’s something they can reduce at any time without raising costs for their customers at all. Not to mention the fact that the cost of providing inference is plummeting by several orders of magnitude. Uber weren’t providing free service to huge numbers of people, so when they wanted to turn a profit they couldn’t reduce there and had to raise prices for their customers. And the fees they pay to drivers didn’t drop a thousandfold so it wasn’t getting vastly cheaper to provide service.
  - 1y ago
ramesh31 1y ago
I do think there will be a great de-skilling in software as we know it currently, essentially equivalent to the shift from craftsman manufacturing to assembly line production in the physical world. There will of course always be niches for high skill experts, but the vast majority of enterprise CRUD work will be done by people with far less expertise, whose salary will be some diminished percentage based on their reliance on AI. Will the results be "better"? No, but they will be good enough, and faster and more reliably tracked/scheduled and allow capital more control. The bosses have wanted to be able to "add X dollars to a project to speed it up by Y" forever, and now they finally can.
- samsonradu 1y ago
  But will they be good enough? That’s a question that can only be answered after many years in a project’s lifecycle. Not sure about allowing for more control, what happens when a complex/exotic issue that an AI is not able to solve arises? The bosses will have to pay a premium to whatever expert is left to address the problem.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ramesh31 1y ago
    >Not sure about allowing for more control, what happens when a complex/exotic issue that an AI is not able to solve arises? What happens when a complex piece of machinery breaks down at the factory? You call in an expensive mechanic to fix it. You also still have engineers overseeing the day to day operations and processes to make sure that doesn't happen, but the bulk of the work is carried out by semi-skilled labor. It's not hard to imagine software going this way, as it's inevitably what capital wants.
- Disposal8433 1y ago
  > the vast majority of enterprise CRUD work Why are people always speaking about CRUD? In 30 years, I haven't done anything related to CRUD. And I'm also very confused about it.
chiffre01 1y ago
Commented on this the other day, I think AI is fundamentally different from ride share apps and Uber for X services. It's more likely to follow a Moore's law trajectory. Getting cheaper and better over time? Or at least cheaper.
- Larrikin 1y ago
  It will only get cheaper if the models can run locally. Anything that is a subscription service will always get more expensive over time.
  - tjr 1y ago
    Local and preferable Free. It seems odd that the majority of the software development world is gleefully becoming dependent upon proprietary tools running on someone else's machine. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...
  - celeritascelery 1y ago
    While running locally will no doubt get cheaper over time (and hence become much more viable), cloud compute cost will also drop significantly as better hardware and more specialized models are created. We have seen this process already where the cost per million tokens has been falling rapidly.
  - simianwords 1y ago
    This is untrue simply based on the so many past instances of Gemini, OpenAI making their products cheaper. The ratelimits for GPT 5 are pretty high. The API costs have decreased by 50% over and above o3's reduction which was also massive. This is not even considering the fact that the performance has also increased.
- VerminOctopus1 1y ago
  It feels like a lot of the core LLM progress has plateaued or is approaching the end of the asymptote. We’re seeing a ton of great tooling being built around LLMs to increase their utility, but I wonder how much more juice we can really squeeze out of these things.
abotsis 1y ago
I feel like people almost pay that already with pair programming.
amelius 1y ago
If everybody does it, maybe there is no other choice ...
esarbe 1y ago
No.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 1y ago
> Because instead of writing code, they’re spending - wasting? - a ton of time fixing AI coding blunders. This is not a productive use of mid-level, never mind senior, programmers. It’s amazing to think that humans have been writing blunder-free code all this time and only AI is making mistakes. Humans coders, including good ones, make errors all the time and I don’t fully trust the code written by even my strongest team members (including myself; I’m far from the strongest programmer).
- jncfhnb 1y ago
  Problem is juniors are now pushing code that they don’t understand and have concluded they cannot understand because the AI is smarter than them
  - Ancapistani 1y ago
    That is clearly a failure on the part of the seniors on their team - not AI.
    - jncfhnb 1y ago
      I don’t blame the stupidity multipliers but I don’t love having them around
- n4r9 1y ago
  The claim is not that humans write fewer bugs than AI. The claim is that devoting senior time to fixing bugs in mass-produced AI code lowers overall quality.
- ericyd 1y ago
  This is true, but when good human developers introduce bugs, at least their code adheres to a thoughtful software design that matches expectations. My experience with AI code is its much less likely to meet that criteria.
senko 1y ago
One SEO content writer pulls a random number out of their behind, next thing you know it's stated as a fact by IT news sites, and I fully expect to see it parroted by mainstream media in a week. And we blame AI for slop and hallucination...
getnormality 1y ago
> Companies deny they're doing this, of course. Take Microsoft, for example. CEO Satya Nadella claims AI tools like GitHub Copilot now write up to 30 percent of Microsoft’s software code. Simultaneously, Microsoft has laid off over 15,000 people, nearly 7% of its workforce. Coincidence? I think not. This is why we need the discipline of history. People's memories are nonexistent. The world hasn't stood still during the past few years! During the pandemic, the tech companies went on a hiring binge for demand that didn't materialize. Then interest rates skyrocketed as the Fed buckled down to fight inflation. Then Elon Musk bought Twitter and laid off 80% of the staff without the service collapsing, showing twitchy tech executives that their companies could get by with less. There were also massive tax code changes, only very recently reversed, that further encouraged less headcount. We've had so many headwinds against tech employment completely unrelated to AI. Big companies have been responding, but they don't move fast, so they likely still haven't done everything they want to do. AI is just a convenient excuse, and it's amazing how well it's worked on so many people!
Ukv 1y ago
> Funny. GPT-5 will confidently tell you that Willian H. Brusen is a former US president Checking the link, it seems this mistake occurred when generating an image of the names of all the presidents, I believe using gpt-image-1 (the model which GPT-5 will call, but which predates GPT-5). Not to say inaccuracies in generated image text shouldn't also be addressed, but I feel it's relevant context when judging progress. > The verdict of some users is in. They hate GPT-5. [...] OpenAI to bring back the older, but more reliable, GPT4o model GPT-5 is top of https://livebench.ai/#/ https://livebench.ai/#/ and top of https://lmarena.ai/leaderboard https://lmarena.ai/leaderboard (blind user-preference ratings). Those leaderboards aren't the be-all-and-end-all, but I feel narratives formed within particular groups can be prone to confirmation bias (with different groups having different narratives and seeing the others as delusional). > and an Arizona State University study indicate that our current ways of improving LLMs have gone as far as they can go Unclear to me that a study of a 4-layer GPT-2 on a synthetic task implies specifically now is the stopping point. I don't believe in a singularity/intelligence explosion or that we're close to replacing all human labor, but it does seem that incremental progress has continued through over a decade of people saying deep learning is hitting a wall. > Kilo Code blog observed, people have been assuming that since "the raw inference costs were coming down fast, the applications' inference costs would come down fast as well but this assumption was wrong." > [...] Of course, Sam Altman, OpenAI's CEO, can predict "The cost to use a given level of AI falls about 10x every 12 months," but I believe that just as much as I would an Old West snake oil huckster who'd guaranteed me his miracle elixir would grow my hair back. Wouldn't necessarily trust Altman's predictions in general, but the fact that the cost of a fixed level of capability decreases dramatically over time seems fairly uncontroversial and easy to verify across providers. That's not inconsistent with the fact that the per-token price of the current best model has stayed approximately the same, which is what the quoted blog post is referring to. I believe that's mostly just determined by how much people are willing to pay (if people are willing to pay more to be a couple months ahead of the current progress curve, scale up the model or increase context/CoT to squeeze out extra performance).
nunez 1y ago
from the article: > Other companies, like Microsoft and Google, are sneaking AI charges into your existing software-as-a-service (SaaS) bills They really are. My Google Workspace bill was increased by $5/month purely because of the "value add" that AI provides. I turned Gemini off in my tenant (like, chatted with customer support to REALLY turn it off). I have no desire to turn it back on. There is no way to remove the $5/month increase. At this point, they are literally just stealing $60/year from me (and others) to fund their AI bullshit. As soon as I find an alternative to Drive and Docs, I am gone. I found this unacceptable.
daft_pink 1y ago
This is what I believe is happening: 1. AI adoption has outpaced expectations relative to Moore's law. Silicon Valley startups typically price their services based on anticipated future costs rather than current ones. While it was clear that AI inference costs would decline substantially, the rate of adoption was faster than projections, creating a gap where usage scaled faster than costs could decrease. 2. As companies like Cursor began recruiting talent from Claude, Claude responded by raising prices, recognizing that they were now competing directly with services built by their former employees.
Helmut10001 1y ago
I am willing to buy AI Hardware (=TUPs/GPUs) and put it in my own rack at home, powered by my own pv plant. My limit would be (atm) about 10k, but I would expect a quality level / feature set on par with aistudio's 1 Million token context.
hoppp 1y ago
No, I pray a big company gifts us with a very good local model that I can just run offline and its good enough. I know its a hard ask since releasing FOSS models will eat onto their profit margins, but eventually something should happen

64 points by rntn 1y ago

austin-cheney 1y ago

Nope. I would consider the opposite. I would pay more for candidates not reliant on frameworks, AI, and other helpers.

taylodl 1y ago
That's just being silly. We've been using frameworks for over 30 years. I remember the days before frameworks. Software was developed at a pace nobody would tolerate today. They're a productivity boost - a significant productivity boost. AI? In the hands of a craftsman AI is just another tool that can help boost productivity. In the hands of a junior developer trying to use AI to make it appear that they're a senior developer - no. There are too many downside risks in that scenario because the junior developer doesn't have enough experience to know when the tool is providing bad results.
- austin-cheney 1y ago
  I hear this a lot and it is mathematically incorrect. Frameworks solve two business problems: 1. Candidate selection 2. Clearer division of labor That’s it. Everything else is an imaginary quality from the developer. In most cases the well reasoned arguments from developers in favor of large frameworks can be performed faster without the frameworks, both in human writing speed and software execution speed. Typically these imaginary qualities taken a defensive tone from developers who have never learned to execute without the frameworks, which becomes an argument from ignorance because you know what you are arguing for but not what you are arguing against. At any rate the result is the same that the article makes about AI: output of brittle toolchains.
  - orsorna 1y ago
    I'll take a bite and be a defensive developer. I really can't put frameworks in the same bucket as AI. At least frameworks describe an abstract model for a developer to rationalize and think through. AI allows (but doesn't mandate) a developer to write code that they don't understand. Perhaps I've worked on business logic so long instead of esoteric efforts; what real world use case would benefit from not leveraging a framework where applicable? In fact, I see your publicly posted resume; are there really developers out there rawdogging Javascript? What problem space do you hire for that mandates the ignorance of >15 years of JS libraries? And does your business pays above market rate for these skilled developers? Without understanding the problem space I just assume your business tries to hire talented people at exploitative wages. Regardless it appears to be a staggering waste of talent unless the higher quality significantly reduces the cost center of downtime, bugs etc (I find this hard to believe)
    - austin-cheney 1y ago
      > In fact, I see your publicly posted resume; are there really developers out there rawdogging Javascript? What problem space do you hire for that mandates the ignorance of >15 years of JS libraries? Performance, security, and portability to start. If you work in a high security environment you should expect to NOT have access to things like Maven or NPM. I hear so very many people on HN and the real world complain about web bloat. Even the people who contribute to that bloat and cannot live without the contributing factors complain about it. As somebody who is only writing personal software now and working in a completely unrelated field I certainly wouldn't punish myself with bloat that requires far more work than executing without it.
  - taylodl 1y ago
    Okay. I've been developing software for 40 years now. Frameworks became a thing a little over 30 years ago. Industry productivity soared - so much so that that was our last big productivity boost in the industry. There are a myriad of other benefits from using frameworks, so many in fact that to me it's a red flag when someone advocates against them. With regards to AI, like I said in my original comment it's a tool, not a panacea. Experienced software tradesmen are learning how to effectively wield AI - hint: it's not for writing all your code. I'm kind of excited because we could be on the verge of another great productivity boost like we experienced 30 years ago when we adopted frameworks.
    - austin-cheney 1y ago
      The biggest red flag I have against frameworks is that its a leaky abstraction that induces human insecurity. I have been doing this a very long time and it always comes up. Always. People cannot architect because they expect this to be a solved problem. People cannot execute outside what the framework provides, because they are deathly afraid of writing original code. People can't measure things because they have no reason to once they are locked into their framework conventions. Every decision point becomes a defensive game reasoned around the idea of "I can't*. That is the primary reason I wanted to change employment from writing JavaScript to something else. If I could find JavaScript employment without this insanity then maybe I will reconsider my options. I see AI as more of the same.
  - brianmcc 1y ago
    I mean maybe if you hear it a lot, there's a reason for that? Frameworks may not bring magical perfection but they bring a lot of objective benefit to the table.
    - austin-cheney 1y ago
      Yes, many developers cannot program.
reactordev 1y ago
I don't think you want a web service written in assembly.
- austin-cheney 1y ago
  I honestly don't think the user cares.
AtlasBarfed 1y ago
At the stage of the AI is currently which really is a very good code generator, what you really should see is a higher valuation of people with all the fundamentals of computer science and a breadth of experience about what you can do in programming. Contrasted with specific acronyms frameworks, languages and similar buzzwords that dominate computing recruitment. If you have a tool that can basically take someone who's really good at programming, architecture, analysis, etc, and eliminates the barriers of domain specific knowledge, syntax idiosyncracies, library peculiarities away .. It should mean a talented IT professional should actually be more useful across more domains. And hiring should reflect that. It's hard to tell right now because hiring is zero apparently. For example, I haven't coded at rust. I have encoded in c++ in 20 years. Assuming of course that I am a genius, which of course I am right? Assuming that, llm should allow me to both code in a language I don't have a lot of experience in, and adapt to you or enterprises particular code base far more quickly. Does my value go up? Probably not. Because now I compete with everyone else. That's pretty smart without domain barriers. That's a large increase in supply. However, large amounts of IT people who don't even know the basics of computer science architecture or those types of things, Will not have any real value compared to an llm. With the hypnosis of the executives, they do not see a difference between those two different types of professional. They see an IT budget that they want to axe. One of the fundamental tensions in it management/labor dispute is that someone that manages and maintains a service and codes... is actually a manager. Good it professionals are providing both technical service and managerial service to a company. Consider what computers used to do. There used to be a room full of actual human computers on calculators doing things, and of course, a manager that oversight oversaw them. That manager was clearly considered part of the managerial class. Then came computers and the room of people disappeared and you still had a manager managing an IT application. But without the head count, Management decided that that person wasn't a manager or a member of the manager class. Yet they had to pay him like that. See. I think ultimately llms are taking away some of the technical overhead on managing and Enterprise system for a company. But it still needs to be managed. And that person will still be "IT". And if you don't pay that person reasonably well, your Enterprise will suffer.
- austin-cheney 1y ago
  The first half of your comment mentioned the word should 5 times. This sounds like wishful thinking. Yes, there are some fundamental skill deficits and a lot of liars out there. The historical solution to this problem is to ignore it, use some tool to flatten the bell curve, and then hope for the best. If AI is just an evolution of things already tried, then we already know what the results will look like: less accountability, less credibility, less selection risks for candidate selection, and more expensive development processes. For example frameworks allowed substantially wider developer participation at lower product quality and high costs without change to business ambitions. We should expect developers to become more of a less capable commodity than they already were. Then when the technical debt becomes to expensive to maintain just call in consultants to tell everybody what is already commonly known.

felipeerias 1y ago

To save you a click: no, the author does not provide any source for the headline.

Jedd 1y ago
> To save you a click: no, the author does not provide any source for the headline. TFA kind of did, with the '20-30 dollars per person, per month, across an organisation' quote / comment - though they didn't do the math for you. But that range of monthly spend only needs 220-400 ish people to reach the headline figure of $100k. Whether that's good value, who can say.
- malfist 1y ago
  With a large code base and big context windows, it's easy to blow past the $20-30 allocation in an hour
- CamelCaseName 1y ago
  100K, per developer?
  - Jedd 1y ago
    Oh, I overlooked that bit. The math on the 'if costs keep rising' bit of the story would take a hefty amount of (the bad type of) oversight to get to that figure per developer, yes.
IshKebab 1y ago
I think they read this nonsense: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44867312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44867312
- felipeerias 1y ago
  Possibly, although at least that article tried to justify the $100k with some handwaving about multiple agents working in parallel with minimal human supervision. Unfortunately, people are swallowing the headline without any critical thinking.

reactordev 1y ago

>Smarter financial people than me, which wouldn't take much At least they admit they have no idea what they are talking about.

Quarrelsome 1y ago
for me, an admission of lack of authority is a green flag, not a red one.

htrp 1y ago

you're basically recreating contract dev model at this point.

jvanderbot 1y ago

I'm fairly certain these companies should pivot to selling / licensing AI "s/w drivers" for commodity consumer hardware that enables all these apps to run local-first or local-only. The token cost stopped decaying as expected, as mentioned by the original 100,000k post on HN, and the move nowadays is towards more context to keep building functionality. The cost is just going to go up for inference. These companies might be better off splitting their focus between training and tooling, and canning all the capex/opex associated with inferrence. Forget S/W engineers for a moment ... Every white collar worker I know, especially non technical folks, use ChatGPT all the time, and believe that is AI at this point. That demand isn't going to vanish overnight. The counter argument is usually "They'll sell data", but I'm not sure you can double the number of trillion dollar data companies without some dilution of the market, and reach a billion devices / users without nation-state level infra.

stingraycharles 1y ago
It’s basically the old “what Intel giveth, Microsoft taketh away” but then with NVidia and AI shops. Models get more computationally expensive as they start doing more things, and an equilibrium will be found what people are willing to pay per token. I do expect the quality of output to increase incrementally, not exponentially, as models start using more compute. The real problem begins when companies like NVidia can’t make serious optimizations anymore, but history has proven that this seems unlikely.
- keeda 1y ago
  What Jensen giveth, Altman taketh away.
msgodel 1y ago
Has it? Google has free inference for their smallest hosted model now. I'm pretty sure that's where this ends.
- jvanderbot 1y ago
  Has what? The smallest networks are probably cheap enough they are a decent loss leader.

Suzuran 1y ago

We don't even want to pay $100k a year per developer for developers.

amelius 1y ago
That's because with human developers we can't get our money back if they make mistakes.
- rootnod3 1y ago
  Can you get money back with AI if they make mistakes? They are more prone to mistakes especially on larger scales in my opinion.

JCM9 1y ago

This is all a familiar pattern. In the early days of ride share it was an amazing advancement and very cheap, because it was highly subsidized. The quality was decent, and certainly better than taxi and car services in most cities. Tons of ride share app companies popped up. Then reality set in. Costs were raised so they weren’t losing money anymore. Rideshare became more of a commodity and competitors got squeezed out as there wasn’t much room to compete and make money. Service quality went downhill. Uber is generally reliable but the quality has fallen off a cliff. My last car smelled bad and the rear axel sounded like was about to fall off the car. In most cities at the airport I just walk outside and get an old fashioned taxi at the rank vs dealing with all the nonsense regulations forcing one to walking to some remote corner of a parking garage for the “ride share pickup” zone. GenAI is entering that pivot point. The products have plateaued. There’s pressure to stop the loss leaders and set prices to a more realistic level. Services are becoming commoditized. It’s not going away but we’re entering a period of rapid consolidation. GenAI will still be here in a few years and will be useful, but like rideshare the allure will wear old and we’ll look at these things like we do spell checkers today. Something everyone uses but ultimately boring commoditized tech where there’s not a lot of money to be made. A useful feature to add to actual products. I do think there’s some good opportunity to shift to locally run small models, but that too will just become commoditized spell-checker level tech.

JimDabell 1y ago
> In the early days of ride share it was an amazing advancement and very cheap, because it was highly subsidized. This is not an analogous situation. Inference APIs aren’t subsidised, and I’m not sure the monthly plans are any more either. AI startups burn a huge amount of money on providing free service to drive growth. That’s something they can reduce at any time without raising costs for their customers at all. Not to mention the fact that the cost of providing inference is plummeting by several orders of magnitude. Uber weren’t providing free service to huge numbers of people, so when they wanted to turn a profit they couldn’t reduce there and had to raise prices for their customers. And the fees they pay to drivers didn’t drop a thousandfold so it wasn’t getting vastly cheaper to provide service.
- 1y ago

ramesh31 1y ago

I do think there will be a great de-skilling in software as we know it currently, essentially equivalent to the shift from craftsman manufacturing to assembly line production in the physical world. There will of course always be niches for high skill experts, but the vast majority of enterprise CRUD work will be done by people with far less expertise, whose salary will be some diminished percentage based on their reliance on AI. Will the results be "better"? No, but they will be good enough, and faster and more reliably tracked/scheduled and allow capital more control. The bosses have wanted to be able to "add X dollars to a project to speed it up by Y" forever, and now they finally can.

samsonradu 1y ago
But will they be good enough? That’s a question that can only be answered after many years in a project’s lifecycle. Not sure about allowing for more control, what happens when a complex/exotic issue that an AI is not able to solve arises? The bosses will have to pay a premium to whatever expert is left to address the problem.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ramesh31 1y ago
  >Not sure about allowing for more control, what happens when a complex/exotic issue that an AI is not able to solve arises? What happens when a complex piece of machinery breaks down at the factory? You call in an expensive mechanic to fix it. You also still have engineers overseeing the day to day operations and processes to make sure that doesn't happen, but the bulk of the work is carried out by semi-skilled labor. It's not hard to imagine software going this way, as it's inevitably what capital wants.
Disposal8433 1y ago
> the vast majority of enterprise CRUD work Why are people always speaking about CRUD? In 30 years, I haven't done anything related to CRUD. And I'm also very confused about it.

chiffre01 1y ago

Commented on this the other day, I think AI is fundamentally different from ride share apps and Uber for X services. It's more likely to follow a Moore's law trajectory. Getting cheaper and better over time? Or at least cheaper.

Larrikin 1y ago
It will only get cheaper if the models can run locally. Anything that is a subscription service will always get more expensive over time.
- tjr 1y ago
  Local and preferable Free. It seems odd that the majority of the software development world is gleefully becoming dependent upon proprietary tools running on someone else's machine. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-s...
- celeritascelery 1y ago
  While running locally will no doubt get cheaper over time (and hence become much more viable), cloud compute cost will also drop significantly as better hardware and more specialized models are created. We have seen this process already where the cost per million tokens has been falling rapidly.
- simianwords 1y ago
  This is untrue simply based on the so many past instances of Gemini, OpenAI making their products cheaper. The ratelimits for GPT 5 are pretty high. The API costs have decreased by 50% over and above o3's reduction which was also massive. This is not even considering the fact that the performance has also increased.
VerminOctopus1 1y ago
It feels like a lot of the core LLM progress has plateaued or is approaching the end of the asymptote. We’re seeing a ton of great tooling being built around LLMs to increase their utility, but I wonder how much more juice we can really squeeze out of these things.

abotsis 1y ago

I feel like people almost pay that already with pair programming.

amelius 1y ago

If everybody does it, maybe there is no other choice ...

esarbe 1y ago

No.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

sokoloff 1y ago

> Because instead of writing code, they’re spending - wasting? - a ton of time fixing AI coding blunders. This is not a productive use of mid-level, never mind senior, programmers. It’s amazing to think that humans have been writing blunder-free code all this time and only AI is making mistakes. Humans coders, including good ones, make errors all the time and I don’t fully trust the code written by even my strongest team members (including myself; I’m far from the strongest programmer).

jncfhnb 1y ago
Problem is juniors are now pushing code that they don’t understand and have concluded they cannot understand because the AI is smarter than them
- Ancapistani 1y ago
  That is clearly a failure on the part of the seniors on their team - not AI.
  - jncfhnb 1y ago
    I don’t blame the stupidity multipliers but I don’t love having them around
n4r9 1y ago
The claim is not that humans write fewer bugs than AI. The claim is that devoting senior time to fixing bugs in mass-produced AI code lowers overall quality.
ericyd 1y ago
This is true, but when good human developers introduce bugs, at least their code adheres to a thoughtful software design that matches expectations. My experience with AI code is its much less likely to meet that criteria.

senko 1y ago

One SEO content writer pulls a random number out of their behind, next thing you know it's stated as a fact by IT news sites, and I fully expect to see it parroted by mainstream media in a week. And we blame AI for slop and hallucination...

getnormality 1y ago

> Companies deny they're doing this, of course. Take Microsoft, for example. CEO Satya Nadella claims AI tools like GitHub Copilot now write up to 30 percent of Microsoft’s software code. Simultaneously, Microsoft has laid off over 15,000 people, nearly 7% of its workforce. Coincidence? I think not. This is why we need the discipline of history. People's memories are nonexistent. The world hasn't stood still during the past few years! During the pandemic, the tech companies went on a hiring binge for demand that didn't materialize. Then interest rates skyrocketed as the Fed buckled down to fight inflation. Then Elon Musk bought Twitter and laid off 80% of the staff without the service collapsing, showing twitchy tech executives that their companies could get by with less. There were also massive tax code changes, only very recently reversed, that further encouraged less headcount. We've had so many headwinds against tech employment completely unrelated to AI. Big companies have been responding, but they don't move fast, so they likely still haven't done everything they want to do. AI is just a convenient excuse, and it's amazing how well it's worked on so many people!

Ukv 1y ago

> Funny. GPT-5 will confidently tell you that Willian H. Brusen is a former US president Checking the link, it seems this mistake occurred when generating an image of the names of all the presidents, I believe using gpt-image-1 (the model which GPT-5 will call, but which predates GPT-5). Not to say inaccuracies in generated image text shouldn't also be addressed, but I feel it's relevant context when judging progress. > The verdict of some users is in. They hate GPT-5. [...] OpenAI to bring back the older, but more reliable, GPT4o model GPT-5 is top of https://livebench.ai/#/ https://livebench.ai/#/ and top of https://lmarena.ai/leaderboard https://lmarena.ai/leaderboard (blind user-preference ratings). Those leaderboards aren't the be-all-and-end-all, but I feel narratives formed within particular groups can be prone to confirmation bias (with different groups having different narratives and seeing the others as delusional). > and an Arizona State University study indicate that our current ways of improving LLMs have gone as far as they can go Unclear to me that a study of a 4-layer GPT-2 on a synthetic task implies specifically now is the stopping point. I don't believe in a singularity/intelligence explosion or that we're close to replacing all human labor, but it does seem that incremental progress has continued through over a decade of people saying deep learning is hitting a wall. > Kilo Code blog observed, people have been assuming that since "the raw inference costs were coming down fast, the applications' inference costs would come down fast as well but this assumption was wrong." > [...] Of course, Sam Altman, OpenAI's CEO, can predict "The cost to use a given level of AI falls about 10x every 12 months," but I believe that just as much as I would an Old West snake oil huckster who'd guaranteed me his miracle elixir would grow my hair back. Wouldn't necessarily trust Altman's predictions in general, but the fact that the cost of a fixed level of capability decreases dramatically over time seems fairly uncontroversial and easy to verify across providers. That's not inconsistent with the fact that the per-token price of the current best model has stayed approximately the same, which is what the quoted blog post is referring to. I believe that's mostly just determined by how much people are willing to pay (if people are willing to pay more to be a couple months ahead of the current progress curve, scale up the model or increase context/CoT to squeeze out extra performance).

nunez 1y ago

from the article: > Other companies, like Microsoft and Google, are sneaking AI charges into your existing software-as-a-service (SaaS) bills They really are. My Google Workspace bill was increased by $5/month purely because of the "value add" that AI provides. I turned Gemini off in my tenant (like, chatted with customer support to REALLY turn it off). I have no desire to turn it back on. There is no way to remove the $5/month increase. At this point, they are literally just stealing $60/year from me (and others) to fund their AI bullshit. As soon as I find an alternative to Drive and Docs, I am gone. I found this unacceptable.

daft_pink 1y ago

This is what I believe is happening: 1. AI adoption has outpaced expectations relative to Moore's law. Silicon Valley startups typically price their services based on anticipated future costs rather than current ones. While it was clear that AI inference costs would decline substantially, the rate of adoption was faster than projections, creating a gap where usage scaled faster than costs could decrease. 2. As companies like Cursor began recruiting talent from Claude, Claude responded by raising prices, recognizing that they were now competing directly with services built by their former employees.

Helmut10001 1y ago

I am willing to buy AI Hardware (=TUPs/GPUs) and put it in my own rack at home, powered by my own pv plant. My limit would be (atm) about 10k, but I would expect a quality level / feature set on par with aistudio's 1 Million token context.

hoppp 1y ago

No, I pray a big company gifts us with a very good local model that I can just run offline and its good enough. I know its a hard ask since releasing FOSS models will eat onto their profit margins, but eventually something should happen