6 ms·
Coffee-shop pitch change helped founder unlock traction for laptop campers
- carlosjobim 1y agoHaven't coffee shops since the beginning two hundred years ago been places where people might hang out for a long time without spending much? In the 1800s and beginning of the 1900s? It shouldn't be a problem that people spend time there without spending money, as long as there's plenty of empty tables available, as I see it. And most laptop patrons are conscious to spend some money and not overstay their welcome. The idea pitched in the article would probably only work with Dutch or central Europeans in general, who unfortunately lack a lot in culture after WWII. Europeans love rules and regulations, and will follow them and take any opportunity to abuse things when there's no explicit rule. Such as overstaying your welcome with your laptop in a café. If this idea with a minimum spend would be pitched in a more mature culture, people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café.
- hintklb 1y agoAgreed. This article seem to be centered on Dutch culture (Which I have discovered the hard way is one of the most stingy frugal culture you could ever imagine).
- jszymborski 1y agoAt some point we need to realize when generalizations of cultures and peoples becomes problematic and cool it, not add on to it.
- hintklb 1y agoThe Dutch being frugal is well-documented and well-known [1]. Are you suggesting we should just pretend it is not the case and act as if we all thought exactly the same way? This article is only relevant because it takes place in that exact culture. [1] https://www.moneyonthemind.org/post/how-the-dutch-handle-money https://www.moneyonthemind.org/post/how-the-dutch-handle-mon...
- mrgoldenbrown 1y agoI see the same problem of coffee shops overcrowded with laptop using "squatters" here in the US, at least in dense urban areas.
- JSR_FDED 1y agoStingy or frugal? Very different things.
- jorgen123 1y agoMy (American) brother in law calls me cheap. Which is what frugal sounds like to me. As a native Dutch I call myself cheaper than the Scottish. When I go out shopping, I will spend hours looking and not buying anything. I don't think stingy fits the bill per se since that would be saving money at the expense of others. Almost like the coffee shop customers who are not buying anything?
- tzarko 1y agoWould love to know which cultures are mature and which aren’t, just so I can keep it in mind when I’m deciding how much I have to push rules and regulations onto users from different cultures.
- carlosjobim 1y agoIt's a very delicate issue to put in practice, because as a business you rarely want to price discriminate along cultural lines. But for example, when dealing with customers from some countries, you know that they will demand the best product or service and don't mind paying through the nose for it. While for some other countries they mainly want to pay as little as possible and don't expect much. Americans for example are big spenders and are used to be very well treated by businesses as customers. Europeans live in a mixed economy, where what they spend has little correlation to customer experience. In Europe you can get some great benefits for a low or no price, due to government subsidies or nationalization. You can also be treated like garbage by a company, even though you are a high spending customer. The easiest way to beat competition in Europe is to just train your staff for a couple of days to be friendly and give nice service. Because nobody else does that.
- mrgoldenbrown 1y ago>people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café. That would be to the benefit of the shop - scaring away non paying customers who are hogging a scarce resource is a good thing, not a bad thing.
- carlosjobim 1y agoBut you're also scaring away good customers who would spend money at your café and not overstay their visit.
- kaffekaka 1y agoWhy do you think that?
- carlosjobim 1y ago"A Badge would place a discreet flyer with a QR code: “Planning to stay and work? Great! A minimum spend of €12 every three hours keeps the Wi‑Fi flowing.” Staff could simply point to the flyer—no awkward confrontations, no hard feelings." If I'm a respectful customer with a laptop and I sit down and some staff comes and does this, I would simply leave. People will go to cafés where they feel welcome.
- NoboruWataya 1y agoThey used to be places for people to meet and socialize, yes, but that means that you generally had multiple people per table, buying multiple drinks, and adding to the lively and social atmosphere. Compare that to laptop users, who are generally taking up a table by themselves and making the place feel like an office. So it is different, not to mention that skyrocketing rents compound the problem. I've been in cafés in New York that looked like open plan offices because everyone was on a laptop (and there were no free tables), and many cafés in London now have laptop policies so I think the problem is broader than you suggest.
- bloomingeek 1y agoYep, on a recent vacation to my favorite city, London, we couldn't find a seat for a coffee break because of the laptop users. If they're drinking a beverage and it's packed, we didn't worry so much.
- carlosjobim 1y agoIt was before my time, but my idea of these coffee houses was that people would also sit and read a book or newspaper by themselves. > I've been in cafés in New York that looked like open plan offices because everyone was on a laptop (and there were no free tables), and many cafés in London now have laptop policies so I think the problem is broader than you suggest. I agree it's bad taste to sit there with your laptop when there's no tables available, and establishments who suffer from this should implement laptop policies. But I've also been many times to cafés which would be completely empty if it wasn't for the people working on their laptops.
- ptaffs 1y agoYes customers over-staying, complaining, not spending enough seems to be the problem Cafe owners have. One near me had a threatening sign that "if you're sitting, you need to be sipping" (you're welcome, but not for long). The solution of a printed-flyer to tell specific customers to move on seems like the good idea here, and I would think a cafe owner could print a card which says "we need to pay the bills, you've taken this table for an hour, please come get another drink." or maybe ask two laptop users to share one table. Also noteworthy is the Capital One (ING Direct (USA)) model where laptop users are welcome, but the Capital One Cafes are brand enforcing, not profit making coffee shops. This 2005 Slate article is one of my favorite on the topic: https://slate.com/human-interest/2005/12/my-coffeehouse-nightmare.html https://slate.com/human-interest/2005/12/my-coffeehouse-nigh...
- carlosjobim 1y agoA more delicate solution would be to keep bothering overstayers with "Would you like another coffee?", "Is there anything else I can bring you?". A popular restaurant / café near me found the perfect solution. They ban laptops during lunch hours until early afternoon.
- dylan604 1y ago> If this idea with a minimum spend would be pitched in a more mature culture, people would just scoff at it and not visit such a café. I don't think this would be the negative you're implying it to be. That empty seat would be of much more benefit to the café.
- card_zero 1y agoEarlier, even. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_coffeehouses_in_the_17th_and_18th_centuries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_coffeehouses_in_the_17... The first coffeehouses established in Oxford were known as penny universities, as they offered an alternative form of learning to structural academic learning, while still being frequented by the English virtuosi who actively pursued advances in human knowledge. The coffeehouses would charge a penny admission, which would include access to newspapers and conversation. That's in the 1650s. Then 60 years later in London the coffeehouses were involved in the rise of printed daily newspapers, they distributed them. (Several of these had advertiser in the name, and were more ads than news, because access to adverts in the early days was desirable and worth paying for.)
- carlosjobim 1y agoThat's very interesting! A modern equivalent could be the internet cafés, which of course were never social in the same sense, but charged by the hour.
- card_zero 1y agoI feel like I'm slighting the Dutch, who to be fair were also a little bit involved in early coffee culture, but they don't seem to get an article on en wiki. Internet cafes were social once! I remember making an exciting group excursion to one to participate in some kind of debate over IRC. Pffft.
- beepbopboopp 1y agoThe problem shes going to have even if she hits a grand slam on execution is that most sides are generally broke. Thats bad for business.
- mc32 1y agoThe WF”H” crowd have money and some will mooch. This minimizes the mooching by such folks.
- Papazsazsa 1y agoDystopian.
- WD-42 1y agoI try to buy one item an hour at a cafe, coffee or food. Sometimes that means too much caffeine. But I’ve not received any annoyed looks, at least that I’m aware of.
- Scoundreller 1y agoOne cafe kinda foiled my attempt at that scheme because they were militant that refills were free. Guess I could’ve done espressos or something. Later i’d just tip heavily up-front.
- bombcar 1y agoI try to be respectful, and will pack up and leave if there are only one or two tables left. I also try to be polite and unobtrusive. But then again I rarely work out at coffee shops or gas stations; usually only when stopping for a drink/meal anyway.
- dlojudice 1y agoI got the impression that if the strategy works, the market positioning of cafes will shift from selling coffee and cookies to selling workstations with food perks.
- e12e 1y agoJapanese manga kissaten entered the chat ;) See also cybercafes/internet cafes.
- bombcar 1y agoWe even had those in the USA for awhile, when computers that could play games cost quite a bit so $5 to play red alert wasn’t a horribly bad option. The proliferation of laptops means that people are bringing their own workstations.
- JSR_FDED 1y agoThis is one of the reasons I signed up for a coworking space - it is so distracting having to mentally keep track of whether I’m spending the minimum amount. If I have a proper meal at the coffeeshop it easily costs more than one coffee an hour. But then after an hour nobody remembers I bought the big meal so I feel compelled to buy another drink (that I don’t want). Then there’s a shift change and again I feel I need to prove I’m not a freeloader.
- nemomarx 1y agohas an employee ever actually asked you to do this?
- edgineer 1y agoI have seen a sign saying one coffee per hour minimum. That was at a place people would linger to chat and smoke, though.
- 1123581321 1y agoIt’s the silent resentment from the staff that is most feared.
- seanw265 1y agoCoffee shops are fine for a change of scenery, but they get expensive fast if you're there all day. I also switched to a coworking space but mainly for these two reasons: 1. It’s much cheaper if you’re regularly working 8-hour days outside your apartment. 2. I hated having to pack up my stuff just to use the bathroom or step out for a call. The ones near me are secure and have free (passable) coffee, which is all I really need.
- caro_kann 1y agoI don't usually work from the coffee shops, but when I'm grateful enough to order some coffee (that amount I'd spend it anyway if I were somewhere else). Also coworking spaces are expensive for irregular visitors like me. In my city, even a day pass is 4-5 times the price of a cappuccino. So a couple of days of visit to a cafe is excellent for me.
- iancmceachern 1y agoIMO this is the kind of tech we should be avoiding. Let's follow the money. The sales generated for this thing come from somewhere. The idea is the coffee shops make more by forcing "squatters" to order one drink an hour or whatever. That additional money, a portion of it, goes to pay for this app that enforces it. I think that money is better spent making the coffee better, paying the baristas better, and maybe even allowing customers to "squat". Extracting money out of everyday life to make our world less friendly and more expensive.
- oulipo 1y agoIn theory we should "cut intermediates" indeed, but if you read the article, she explains her product: a way to avoid confrontational conversations in coffee-shops, all while ensuring people who are staying a long time are not blocking a table without ordering. This is "orthogonal" to improving the coffee. If anything this should "displace" (obviously it won't) some of the salary of waiters, who were before tasked to go yell at people with laptops, and now no longer need to do it. So it shouldn't theoretically take from the "money" for better coffee, but rather smooth out the atmosphere in the coffee shops
- iancmceachern 1y agoI get it, I just don't agree. I would say we should just have the uncomfortable interaction. Why do we need to pay to make our world less interpersonal?
- bombcar 1y agoIt really depends if it’s “rent seeking” - getting money from people occupying seats that would normally be empty (no revenue loss) or if it’s encouraging people to “pay what’s being lost” - the laptop campers are using seats that are causing other people to NOT buy coffee. If it’s the latter, it’s not really rent seeking as much as trying to enforce an existing social contract.
- iancmceachern 1y agoI've never mot bought a coffee somewhere because there were people using a laptop. If the seats are full I still buy my coffee and go sit on a bench nearby. It's not cut and dry, someone using a laptop doesn't reduce the spending of others. It's not a formal restaurant where you need the table to make the sale.
- throwawayohio 1y agoSo turning cafes into coworking spaces? They even use AirBnb as the base example, and we've seen how that's gone for cities around the world. This sounds tragic.
- Angostura 1y agoCafés already are coworking spaces. Much to the annoyance of the cafes. This tackles that.
- bombcar 1y agoI’m now imagining an art installation-tables designed so you can set a cup of coffee on them but any attempt to use a laptop will cause it to continually tip and rock while typing. We’ve weaponized furniture against the homeless, why not against the laptop class?
- Hemospectrum 1y agoThis already sounds like every independent coffee shop I've been to in the continental US.
- bombcar 1y agoI want to find the factory that is making small three-legged tables that somehow still easily tip.
- horsawlarway 1y agoAnd they always have been. If you want people to just sit and eat - you're a restaurant. If you want people to just order and leave - you're a food stall/truck. Cafe's have always been the intermediate. A place to sit and read/discuss/write/work/hang out. While also occasionally going to the counter to buy small food or drinks. If you're annoyed by this... don't run a cafe. Simple & sane rules like "you have to order something to sit at a table" are hardly novel.
- tbrake 1y agoWhat if we're just not onboard with the premise that campers/squatters need to be pandered to in the first place?
- Joker_vD 1y agoWhat, and force people to work in rooms (so-called "offices") specifically set up to work in? No.
- __turbobrew__ 1y agoI have considered going the extreme other way and building a faraday cage around a cafe — no wifi, no cellular, just the people who are physically present in the cafe like it used to be. I personally stopped going to my favourite cafe because all the tables were taken up by people using laptops, I think the value proposition is just not there. You are always going to be better off catering to people who are just dropping in for 5-10 minutes over someone who spends several hours and maybe buys 2 things and jeopardizes a table which could have been used by 10 people.
- nicoburns 1y agoI think both models work. As a cafe you just need to pick one or the other and not try to od both. The laptop cafe model probably works best with a "cover charge" to make up the shortfall.
- afavour 1y agoA much simpler option here (as many cafes near me have done) is simply put a sign up saying "no laptops". If someone is using one you tell them to leave. > You are always going to be better off catering to people who are just dropping in for 5-10 minutes over someone who spends several hours and maybe buys 2 things and jeopardizes a table which could have been used by 10 people. I assume there's a balance. Never run a coffee shop but it seems that a lot of the sales are takeout, so exactly what does and doesn't go on in your seating might well be a secondary concern. If you prioritise folks staying for 5-10 minutes you might just end up with a lot of empty tables.
- wink 1y agoI know I'm the complete majority here but I kinda don't go to cafes on my own - so the only chance I'm a customer at all (unless with company) is if I have to kill an hour waiting for something when I also have work to do. It's unfortunate I have to completely stop going to some cafes with a no laptop policy for three times one hour per year.
- gadders 1y agoNot sure if I'd pay EUR 12 for 3 hours wifi, but if it was, say, EUR 12 of store credit that you can draw down on for coffees etc while there (and the store keeps any unused portion) I might do that.
- oulipo 1y agoI think that's the idea if you read the article, the 12 eur is the minimum spend on coffee
- gadders 1y ago>> “Planning to stay and work? Great! A minimum spend of €12 every three hours keeps the Wi‑Fi flowing.” You might be right. I read that as a minimum spend on wifi originally.
- gchamonlive 1y agoHow much do you think you'd have to pay for 3h WiFi in an actual coworking space?
- gadders 1y agoNever worked from one in my life but google tells me £25/day for Regus in my area.
- gchamonlive 1y agoGreat then, if people are unhappy with having great coffee and WiFi for virtually the same price as a cowork, I think they can always default to just going to a coworking space and leave his place empty for an actual paying customer in the café.
- ipv6ipv4 1y agoOne more app to replace basic social etiquette and community that seem to be inexorably dissolving thanks to people too preoccupied with their screens.
- nikolayasdf123 1y agogreat app. but whole thing is easily killed with single button filter in Google Maps (if they so decide to add it)
- walterbell 1y agoGoogle Maps once had a useful button called "Local Favorites", presumably based on traffic data from local residents.
- coelen 1y agoWhich I doubt they ever will. They rarely launch new revenue models on legacy Google Services, such as maps.
- nikolayasdf123 1y ago> legacy Google Services that's like saying gmail or google.com is legacy services
- coelen 1y agoYea, I haven't seen them launch a consumer faced revenue model recently inside one of their legacy apps (calendar, maps) in years.
- nikolayasdf123 1y agothey actually trying. I am getting PMs pinging me about how to monetize Google Maps all the time.
- coelen 1y agoWhat are they talking about?
- renewiltord 1y agoAmusingly, SF’s planning commission shut down a bustling cafe that did this. The approval was for a cafe not a coworking space. So in the end Workshop Cafe had to shut down and a bustling corner became a blighted empty spot for 5 years. Ah, but perhaps they were just protecting the neighbors from the noise? Well, it was in the financial district. On the ground floor of a bank, which never had a problem with all this.
- ptaffs 1y ago>>The laptop workers using Badge pledge a minimum spend. Badge gets a commission of that minimum spend. Cafe owners get more people and revenue, so they are happy to pay that. A user books a space using Badge, and promises to spend, and the Cafe owner pays Badge a commission on a pledge. This seems ripe for a disputes process (the customer didn't spend) and Cafe owner actually not being "happy to pay that."
- caro_kann 1y agoCafe owner can pay the commission after/if the user spends. Also a user who books a space and skips the spending can be marked in the app so that next time booking can be impossible or hard.
- ptaffs 1y agoAnd if the user deliberately or accidentally doesn't spend their money, or if the Cafe doesn't attribute spend to the right user, or even that owner begins to resent the further sliver of profit, there's incentive to game the system. Badge might ask users to upload receipt images for disputes, but that's an expensive business overhead. The problem is based on the problem that cafe staff can't or won't gently enforce the social contract that you pay if you take a table, and the proposed system is that cafe staff are doing exactly the same thing and the owner is paying Badge a commission. Might a user complain to the staff that they were "marked" unfairly? We live in a world where store owners add 3% to credit card transactions because of the loss to the Banks but would they want to return to the days of stores managing their own customer tab/lending?
- devonsolomon 1y agoOn the contrary, I spoke with a local coffee shop branch owner who said that squatters are essential to keeping the space lively, popular, and “cool.” This atmosphere draws in passersby and casual visitors, who are the real source of their revenue. My guess is that coffee shops fall into one of two categories: 1. Those in high foot traffic areas, where a no-laptop policy helps maintain turnover, or 2. Those in low foot traffic areas, where it makes sense to do everything possible to fill seats and cultivate an appealing, vibrant environment.
- dismalaf 1y agoAlso don't forget that in North America a typical retail space in a city is like 2000 sq ft, whereas in Europe it's more like 500 sq ft.
- gpnt 1y agoThis is the routine I perfected for myself as a nomad after a lot of trial and error: - In the morning, I work at the Airbnb/hotel. I start the day without worries about packing/unpacking or preparations: a solid three to four hours of work. (Requirements: get a room with a workstation and a good chair. Tables are usually easy to find, but if the chair isn’t good enough, buy one.) - Natural stop to have lunch, usually with a longer walk. - Start work again around 2 PM at some coffee shop and order a coffee. Another three hours of solid work. - Natural stop to use the bathroom (always a problem as a solo nomad, but not anymore), stretch my legs, and head to a different coffee shop. - Final batch of work. Order something light to eat. No more caffeine. Another three hours of solid work. In the end, I can get between nine and ten hours of solid work per day. I spend around three hours in one place, so I didn’t notice any uncomfortable looks. I also don’t rely on power outlets or local Wi-Fi never. The laptop needs to last the entire time, but it’s easy because it’s only in the afternoon (around six hours, not the whole day). For Wi-Fi, I always get a good mobile package with unlimited data if possible. This makes it easy to sit anywhere, really. My setup is usually my laptop, an iPad as a second screen, earbuds, and a mobile phone. It works like a charm.
- kevinventullo 1y ago15 years ago Peet’s Coffee enforced this on me, killing the WiFi after an hour despite the fact that I was the only person in the store. Haven’t been back since. The best model I’ve seen is to just have some tables marked as “no laptop”.
- RainyDayTmrw 1y agoI would like something in between a cafe, a network cafe, and a coworking space. Ideally, I would like to pay per time for a desk space with an internet connection, and I would like to be able to order food and drinks a la carte.
- Nifty3929 1y agoWhy not just have a table charge? I think maybe a red light at your table, which you extinguish for a time by paying money. If the red light is on, then you start getting those dirty looks, and eventually asked to leave. If you buy something you get a 30min credit or something.