7 ms·
Industrial espionage has to be totally insane to defend against these days.
by ants_everywhere 1y ago
Industrial espionage has to be totally insane to defend against these days.
- monkeyelite 1y ago[flagged]
- onlyrealcuzzo 1y agoWe are doing much better off with the status quo than TSMC firing everyone who isn't of the same religion, and even then, it's not hard for a spy to pretend to be <insert religion here>.
- monkeyelite 1y ago> We are doing much better off I’m not making a value judgement. I’m making a prediction about material conditions. > TSMC firing everyone who isn't of the same religion I didn’t say that. But circles of a trust around important information. > it's not hard for a spy to pretend to be <insert religion here>. Yes it is.
- bitzun 1y agoCan you explain why? I have pretended to be multiple kinds of Christian with success despite being none of them.
- monkeyelite 1y agoBecause religious vocabulary, etiquette, and clothing are learned from decades of involvement usually as a small child. It’s kind of like saying you’re going to pretend to be a different class, but more particular. > I have pretended to be multiple kinds of Christian with success I don’t know what context you mean. But I guarantee others can tell you aren’t a member of the group even if Christianity aims to be open in inviting new people. Another common situation is they recognize you have some connection but can tell you aren’t an active participant.
- dmbche 1y agoHarder to pretend when speaking with colleagues that are the real deal. Also very likely to "step out of line" accidentally over time as lot of time is spent with colleagues. It's not hard to pretend to be anything for 5 minutes to someone who doesn't know anything about what you're doing.
- onlyrealcuzzo 1y agoNaively, I was assuming TSMC would still operate like TSMC, not the Taliban, and that they'd focus on doing their work, not religious performance, but I guess anything is possible! Suggesting TSMC start operating like the Taliban to protect their trade secrets seems like an obviously bad idea, though. But we don't live in a vacuum, so I guess it's all just opinion pieces.
- monkeyelite 1y agoPlease don’t be facetious
- onlyrealcuzzo 1y agoOkay, substitute Taliban for the Church of Scientology or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's a marginally less absurd proposal. My point stands. Proposing extreme religious nepotism as a good counter-measure to deal with espionage 1) would be minimally effective (see the IDF infiltrating Hamas and Iran regularly), and 2) is ridiculous.
- monkeyelite 1y ago> Proposing extreme religious nepotism as a good counter-measure Please read the thread again. This is not a prescription. This is a description of how high trust markets work. See this classic economics paper “Jewish Diamond Merchants in New York”: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=349040 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=349040
- dmbche 1y ago
- meindnoch 1y ago>even then, it's not hard for a spy to pretend to be <insert religion here>. There are religious groups which you can only be born into. Some people believe that one such religious group wields the most power on our planet.
- FirmwareBurner 1y agoThe religion installing wires above NY so they can cheat it?
- mananaysiempre 1y agoIs there a Druze world government out there that I’m not aware of? :) It’s absolutely possible to convert to Judaism, for reference, though the faith is non-proselytizing (not actively seeking converts) and the status of converts is disputed among the more extreme Orthodox groups (but what isn’t).
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ants_everywhere 1y ago> groups have to return to more traditional forms of trust (family, religion, creed, etc) a relevant acronym is MICE (money, ideology, compromise/coercion, ego). Religion would fall under ideology. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterintelligence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterintelligence
- monkeyelite 1y agoMoney and coercion is what corporations have now and it doesn’t work very well because the incentive is to violate it as soon as a better offer comes along. I’m saying it has to be deeper and more durable.
- sneak 1y agoI frequently wonder what steps SpaceX security has to take, given the insane geopolitical significance of reusable rockets and cheap access to orbit.
- oldpersonintx2 1y ago[dead]
- pythonguython 1y agoSpacex rocketry tech is subject to ITAR regulations. That restricts who they’re allowed to contract with, data encryption and handling, but altogether those regulations are quite bare. It likely wouldn’t be enough to stop a state actor or rogue employees.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- pc86 1y agoI think ITAR is mostly just to stop the outright sale of controlled items to foreign entities, not necessarily to prevent IP theft or corporate espionage.
- blackguardx 1y agoI worked on an ITAR-controlled camera once and it was drilled into me than even allowing a non-US person to view the output images of the camera constituted an ITAR violation.
- 0xffff2 1y agoRight, which is all well and good if you're a benevolent actor, but ITAR really doesn't do anything at all to stop you from intentionally committing (corporate or actual) espionage if you want to. There should still be controls to prevent you from violating ITAR either accidentally or on purpose.
- tjpnz 1y agoJust knowing how the thing is built doesn't seem to be enough. Comac still sources its jet engines from Pratt and Whitney for instance, despite many years of trying no local manufacturer has been able to build them to the same spec.
- Cyph0n 1y agoAre P&W and Rolls Royce the only companies in the world capable of manufacturing high-end jet engines end-to-end?
- seanmcdirmid 1y agoNo, but they provide the best efficiency/performance for the buck. China can produce its own jet turbines, but they have to trade off performance or longevity to do it.
- Cyph0n 1y agoInteresting. Thanks.
- prussian 1y agoDon't forget GE Aerospace. It gets a bit weirder too since you have joint ventures like CFM and Engine Alliance.
- 1y ago
- duxup 1y agoIt seems to me companies ... don't care out side some easy to do basic things. But when push comes to shove if manufacturing is cheaper in a country where lots of folks want to steal your things. -shrug- Short term profits win.
- 93po 1y agoam i crazy for not caring if a company in a foreign country obtains trade secrets and manufactures the same thing? like we're all humans and we all want access to whatever it is they're building, it seems like more people building the thing is a good thing. if that impacts Samsung's profits, why do I care? its not like corporations give a shit about me
- duxup 1y agoI really can't answer that, it's your call if you care or not. I think that the more of a free for all folks stealing tech as they wish will push companies who do the development work towards more proprietary / DRM and similar solutions ... I don't like that. Allowing people to profit from their inventions / investments encourages more such development, and without that discourages it or encourages less good options.
- echelon 1y agoSome countries have all the talent and manufacturing and sourcing advantages. Once they take the lead, you might never be able to keep up. Your engineers lose their jobs, your businesses go bankrupt, you exit that entire field entirely for your entire population. Slowly your ability to do work begins to evaporate. It's happened before and it'll continue to happen.
- zozbot234 1y ago> Slowly your ability to do work begins to evaporate. To be clear about this, you can still physically do the work same as before, it's just become uneconomic/not competitive. It's not all bad though. Having another country take the bulk of the market leaves you free to differentiate and specialize in one or more profitable niches that are not being served well by what is now the main supplier. You might end up dominating some fraction of what's now a vastly bigger market, with improved economies of scale that you're free to exploit as well.
- amelius 1y agoCompartmentalize your company. Make sure people from one compartment are unaware about things people from other compartments are doing. Don't transfer/hire across compartment boundaries.
- ujkhsjkdhf234 1y agoThis is such a bad idea.
- amelius 1y agoCare to say why? Security always comes at a cost ...
- ujkhsjkdhf234 1y agoYou don't need to deliberately create silos in order to secure a project. We've had people working on top secret projects and while people may not have known the specifics the company was kept up to date on the progress and outcomes of the project. We brought people in from other teams after an extra vetting process and additional NDA specific to that project.
- amelius 1y agoWith industrial espionage, NDAs aren't going to cut it ...
- xxpor 1y agoFor the vast vast majority of companies, their success comes down to culture and execution rather than "the tech secret". You can't really steal that. I will grant you, the specific case of TSMC is definitely in the rarer case where there are true tech secrets.
- nunez 1y agoApple does this.