14 ms·

ThinkPad designer David Hill on unreleased models

204 points by LorenDB 1y ago

gjvc 1y ago
golf tee (aka soft rim cap) trackpoint ftw
mananaysiempre 1y ago
> "It's very difficult to make a seven-row keyboard anymore because of the aspect ratio of the display and the whole arrangement of the pieces on the inside," he said. "It's a decision that was not made lightly, however. I still like the seven-row keyboard and, as aspect ratios change, and they continue to change, I don't know. Maybe someday somebody will be interested in it again." The sad part is, the Framework 13 has a 3:2 display (with a stupidly large bottom bezel, too, for good reasons), but still uses a bog-standard modern laptop keyboard, including (unlike the ThinkPad) the miserable half-height arrow keys. They did bother to make a Copilot key, though. Just not a better keyboard.
- walterbell 1y ago
  > aspect ratio of the display Meanwhile, Apple sold 500+ million HiDPI 4:3 displays on iPads. Do they have a supply chain lock on 4:3 screens?
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    Possibly. It’s hugely expensive to order a completely custom screen, and I know Framework waited for a long time for a better 3:2 display to come onto the market after the initial one—the current better panel is actually a compromise that loses some pixels to rounded corners, which is fine but IMO not “pay $270+tax+shipping for the upgrade” fine. Looking at the specs of the screens, I’m almost sure that both the original 2256×1504 one and the rounded-corners 2880×1920 one are actually identical to the ones in the Microsoft Surface (changed to a matte finish), so it’s Microsoft footing the custom-screen bill in this case. (I’ve heard we’re not getting small phones for a similar reason: you would need to sell a lot of phones to justify a new screen, and all the small-phone people will still begrudgingly buy a large one if there are no small ones.)
    - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
      The big selling point of the higher tier FW13 screen option is that it’s conducive to 2x/200% UI scaling, which is surprisingly rare in x86 laptops and is desirable under Linux. Fractional scaling displays technically work but have some notable quirks, where 2x scaling has worked flawlessly for a long time.
  - masklinn 1y ago
    I’m pretty sure it’s just that 16:9 are so ubiquitous they’re by far the cheapest option. Hell, Apple shipping millions of 4:3 should keep them reasonable affordable. Same with 16:10 back when those were still a thing (because of the notch Apple now uses 9:5.85 displays to retain a rectangular 16:10 fullscreen).
- ginko 1y ago
  No one asked for a 16:9 thinkpad though.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    16:9 displays were inevitable due to the economies of scale form the TV industry. It's a shame they had to be 1366x768 for so long. I remember many eons ago in the last 2000s to early 2010s when I wanted a 16:10 monitor for my PC and the price difference between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 or between 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 was massive, that it made no sense to get the few extra vertical pixels of the 16:10 unless you were loaded and money was no issue. Even 4k 16:9 monitors a few years after launch, were cheaper than 16:10 2560x1600 ones which have already been on the market far longer. Crazy.
    - 4ad 1y ago
      I call BS on that, as Macbooks somehow always kept being 16:10. In fact you could easily buy 16:10 panels, I know because for many years I upgraded old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        Nothing what I said is BS, the price differences on external 16:10 monitors were significantly more expensive than 16:9 ones. Look it up. > old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays. Yes you're talking about the really old 16:10 ones from the mid to late 2000s, right before they switched to 16:9 cause they were cheaper to make due to the HD TV era. Add then today they switched back to 16:10. So no, it's no BS that scale allows for much cheaper products, but Apple could stick to 16:10 since they never catered to cheap and it would probably cost them more in SW dev and tooling to reengineer their OS GUI and chassis for 16:9 than to keep the production lines as is since their product line back then had like 3 laptops total. And maybe start with good faith before screaming BS. No need to be rude just because people have different opinions and experiences than you.
        1y ago
- wpm 1y ago
  The Framework keyboard is precisely why I haven’t bought one. The mixed height arrow key thing sucked on the touchbar MacBook Pros, they suck on FWs too. The second the 13 gets a normal inverted T, I buy one. In the meantime, I’m waiting on a display converter board to show up from China so I can install a modernish 1440p display in my T420.
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    The “normal” inverted T is just another variation of the same suckage as far as I’m concerned (slightly worse, if anything, because I tend to wear away the paint—and eventually plastic—on a tiny left-arrow key faster than on a normal one). Look at the photos in TFA[1] for how good arrow keys are arranged. [1] e.g. https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg (the presence of a Break key almost makes me cry)
    - normie3000 1y ago
      > https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg Doesn't this photo show an inverted T?
      - notpushkin 1y ago
        I think a “normal” inverted T consists of half-height keys (i.e. used on most current laptops). ThinkPads used slightly higher arrow keys for a while, not sure about now.
        layer8 1y ago
        A normal inverted T is what is on a standard desktop PC keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_keys.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_ke... While half-height arrow keys have become common on laptops, that's probably not what GP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440) meant by "normal". ThinkPads generally use slightly smaller keys for the arrow keys, but still significantly taller than half-height, like for example here: https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49493/4Y40X49493-560x450-01.8449bcbf5e5aa641.png https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49... What people really want is a full-height inverted T like on this Lenovo gaming laptop: https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszorypehb4ern6ol5r2lur937054.png https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszoryp...
- nrp 1y ago
  We have 1.5mm key travel, the keyboard is replaceable, and the vast majority of our keyboard artwork options don’t have a Copilot logo.
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    All true. My previous laptop was a 2014 MBP, and the two basically feel the same. I’d say the MBP’s layout is marginally worse because of the stupid power key and the half-size left and right arrows, and of course the MBP’s construction makes your life hell if you spill liquid on the keyboard and need to replace it. (Framework’s prohibition on freight forwarding makes my life difficult in the same situation, but that’s a me problem—I should have taken the hint that I wasn’t wanted when I was jumping through hoops to buy it in the first place.) It’s not a bad keyboard. As far as laptops of the last decade go, it’s even a good one. But the up/down arrows sucked on the MBP and they (though not left/right) suck on the FW13, I expect(?) because a rectangular keyboard ends up cheaper than one with protruding arrows. Furthermore, my (grandparent) comment was about how vertical shrinkage made the keyboard smaller but the FW13’s taller screen didn’t restore the missing keys, and if half-size up/down arrows just suck to use, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn hidden behind Fn suck to a Pavlovian extent: I didn’t realize how much the MBP trained me out of using them before I had to use an older ThinkPad for a bit that had them on separate keys. I won’t even mention Ctrl-Break except to look in its direction wistfully. Finally, the Copilot key is of course a distraction. I don’t know what it actually sends on those keyboards, but if I can map that to Compose I couldn’t care less about what’s drawn on it. It’s just sad that, after everything, that distraction is what ended up being the first substantial change to the FW13’s keyboard.
  - nh2 1y ago
    Please just give us an option to buy a 7 row Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint. There are talented keyboard makers like Tex that already pulled this off, making better hardware than Lenovo itself, and you could instantaneously win most Thinkpad users over, likely permanently.
  - dogcow 1y ago
    Please offer a good TrackPoint keyboard. Please.
- spankibalt 1y ago
  Turn the ThinkPad X12 into a modernized and more maintainable HP ZBook x2 G4, complete with EMR stylus. Keep the size or make it even smaller. Offer a bunch of first-rate keyboard options. For both machine's got the best form factor in that size-class there is: the detachable, the evolution of the convertible of yesteryear. It's really not hard to figure out. Whatcha get instead? Garbage like silly rolling-display laptops. Or even worse, The Homer of the laptop world: these bizarre contraptions with two or three foldout displays. It's just missing a cup holder. Framework borked it here as well. I just don't understand why you waste time, energy and money on developing and building a substandard machine (Framework 12) in an outdated form factor.
raffael_de 1y ago
There is something about the classic Thinkpad design which strikes me as more than just nostalgia. More like a Jungian archetype. Honest, virtuous and sturdy. The ultimate example of form follows function. The Stroke 8 of computers. A masculine counterpart to the femininity of Apple products (nttawwi).
- WillAdams 1y ago
  The irony is, back when Steve Jobs first came back to Apple from NeXT, the Apple press on at least one occasion complained of him using a ThinkPad, even stating it was running Windows 95, w/o considering the NeXT compatibility list, that that model was on it, and that it actually ran NeXTstep and Lighthouse Design's Concurrence.app for presentations.
- marttt 1y ago
  > More like a Jungian archetype. Honest, virtuous and sturdy. +1, comparison of the day for sure!
WillAdams 1y ago
The fibrous Trackpoint is still my absolute favourite. For folks who want more in-depth backstory, going all the way back to the beginning and the origin of the "ThinkPad" name see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483933.ThinkPad https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483933.ThinkPad I really wish that there would be a true heir to the mantle, and a return to some of the original ideas, esp. the early stylus models and variants such as the TransNote --- if Lenovo would do a version of their Yogabook 9i under the ThinkPad brand and use a Wacom EMR stylus and put a Trackpoint on the keyboard it'd be an instabuy for me --- as it is, I use a Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 and only get a Trackpoint when using my docking setup w/ https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd026745-thinkpad-compact-usb-keyboard-with-trackpoint-overview-and-service-parts https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd026745-thinkpad... (need to find time to buy an updated one (and a spare) w/ USB-C)
- neilv 1y ago
  > (need to find time to buy an updated one (and a spare) w/ USB-C) Once you find a TrackPoint keyboard model that you like, buy spares, since you might have a hard time getting a good design in the future. For example, they went to a lot of trouble to develop TrackPoint keyboard SK-8855, with community input, and then discontinued it. To cries of anguish, scalpers and price-gouging on last remaining stock, and, years later, people selling filthy broken used ones for more than they cost new. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd005137-thinkpad-usb-keyboard-with-trackpoint-overview https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd005137-thinkpad... I don't think Lenovo has quite the same design sensibilities as IBM ThinkPad team had: * "You, the user, want to throw away IBM's famed keyboards, and have a chiclet keyboard as the only option." (No.) * "You want to remove the function keys that aren't necessary for Twitter." (No.) * "You want to remove the tactile cues from TrackPoint buttons, so it looks more sleek, for your TikTok scrolling." (No. This is not a mindless "content consumer" device. "Think" is right there, in the name.) * "You want to remove the TrackPoint buttons altogether, from a workstation laptop, so you can get RSI from clicking with your thumb on the touchpad below instead." (No, and now I think you are just trying to sabotage all the smart people who were using ThinkPads before.) I'm still surprised that IBM was even allowed by the US gov't to sell ThinkPad to China. It was beloved fleet tech of US big business and government, as well beloved by techies ("innovators"). And maybe also a source of technology excellence pride, like fewer companies are now. Imagine the iPhone business being sold to China. Or Cisco being sold.
jmclnx 1y ago
All I need is the trackpoint, I would never consider buying a laptop without one.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
michalpleban 1y ago
I have never used the butterfly keyboard 700C (my first ThinkPad was the 365X) but I immediately fell in love with the trackpoint since day one. I will never go back to a mouse. Fortunately you can buy USB keyboards with trackpoints so that's what I'm using for my desktop. It's also kinda funny when other people ask me to use my computer, and then hunt around my desk for the mouse ;)
p_ing 1y ago
Is anyone aware of a similar type of article for the ThinkPad Power 800 series? I know the trackpoint was popular but I could never get used to it; the pressure I felt I needed to apply eventually hurt my fingertip.
mxuribe 1y ago
Man, i love me some Thinkpad laptops! For me, its the overall sturdiness, the historic ability to more easily swap out components, and the keys and keyboard combo. I haven't had so many Thinkpads as others have had, but of the few i have owned, i think so far the T420 from i think circa 2011 (?) seemed to have the best balance of sturdy boxy goodness and wonderful keys and keyboard. While i would not say that i am a keyboard snob, i can certainly appreciate differences between the different types of keyboards like chiclets, or mechanical dedicated keyboards, etc. I'm sure beyond functional aspects, there is no doubt a nostalgia that i feel for these machines that is solely based on emotion...but who cares, since i always get more value than whatever i paid for them! On another aspect to this, it feels like Framework laptops has a chance to perhaps capture at least some of the positive sentiment that folks have/had for Thinkpads. I mean, sure, the swap-ability of the components is the most obvious comparison...but, i think Framework has also fostered a following by a community, that, if they play their cards right - and produce good, solid products - can turn into a successor to Thinkpads. I mean, obviously thinkpads are still here and all...but the folks at Framework have a big chance here, and i welcome the competition (since we all win as consumer if there is good, solid choices in the marketplace). Let's hope both Thinkpads and Framework (and any other competitors) keep moving the needle forward to empower users with more options for good solid design, easy/self-repair, component swap-ability, sturdy/dependable hardware, and fair pricing!
karaterobot 1y ago
> Hill said that the X300 is the favorite ThinkPad he worked on, not only because of its thinness, but also because it proved that, under Lenovo, he could build an even better product than he had for IBM. > "There was a giant scare that this Chinese company was going to destroy ThinkPad, and it was going to become cheerful and ruin it and all this kind of stuff," he said. 'As good' can mean different things. My first two laptops were IBM Thinkpads. In 2000 or so, I was carrying one in my hands down some concrete stairs. I tripped, bounced the laptop down 2-3 stairs, then landed on my knee on top of it. No visible marks, and it booted right up and worked flawlessly for years afterward. This was with a platter hard drive, too. I don't remember the X300, but the current Lenovo Thinkpads don't strike me as being quite as robust as the tanks they used to make.
1970-01-01 1y ago
The forced redesign story was the icing on the cake. You never redesign a best selling item. If you try, the changes will be made to you.
garciansmith 1y ago
I miss the ThinkLight (and the dual-light idea he had sounds great). Useful when working in a dark environment to look at papers and whatnot, or just to provide a nice amount of ambient light to smooth out the contrast between the screen itself and your surroundings. Most modern laptops have backlit keys, but those don't help in those cases; they are pretty much only useful for people who can't touch type.
- bobson381 1y ago
  I actually used to work at a place that had regular power outages because it was remote and ran on hydropower. We had a bunch of old think pads with the think light at the time that were standard staff issue, and they were awesome for working on any technology or system stuff when power was out but wireless was on with the UPSs. Such a cool feature and I do wish they still had it. Along with the locking lids, the 430 and 530s were tanklike.
- marttt 1y ago
  Yeah, it has got me "in the zone" for writing many times. On a side note, I also like the "click" when I close the lid on my T42. Mentally balancing for sure :). I bought a used P50 for our son, and while it's allright (even the keyboard -- although it doesn't give that particular feel of the T4x era keyboards), it lacks both of those extra-relevant features. No click on closing, and a mere backlit keyboard. But, that's life!
- Melatonic 1y ago
  Exactly - the light was far more useful than just for illuminating the keyboard
- theandrewbailey 1y ago
  All the ThinkLights I've used were dim, barely brighter than the backlight bleed from the screen. I would have to be in a pitch black room (at night with no light, not even a street light outside) for it to be useful.
Izkata 1y ago
> However, at this point, the Soft Dome design has won out with a rather large, flat top that's filled with dots for texture and an easy grip. I've only ever used the original eraser head and the current soft dome, and remember the original being nice because it was tall enough to tilt my finger slightly and push, while the current one is annoying to use because they're too short to do that and my fingers get almost no grip on them and slip around.
- esseph 1y ago
  You can order packs of different shapes and sizes on Amazon
tonydav 1y ago
I can't have a laptop without the trackpoint. But why can't my fulloption P16 gen2 have a working suspend sleep S3? It's a furnace in my backpack. Also why lose the RJ45? Sadly there is no better laptop.. - ecc - trackpoint +3buttons, could be without touchpad - camera shutter privacy - smartcard reader - 2 nvme (<3 zfs mirror) - big battery <3 NixOS
- microtonal 1y ago
  My T14 Gen 5 has RJ45, so they are not completely gone.
dehrmann 1y ago
A general takeaway from this is that there were a number of innovations that made sense at the time, but as the landscape changed, they lost their utility. The butterfly keyboard wasn't needed once screens got larger. The switch to widescreen mean the 7th row of keys competed with the trackpad for real estate. The lid latch was no longer needed as screens got lighter. Top-of-screen keyboard lighting got replaced by backlighting. Don't get married to once-smart ideas that no longer make sense. Also surprised there was no mention of docking HDD heads when the in-device accelerometer (I think this even predates the Wii and iPhone) detects a drop or the keyboard that had drain holes that bypass the much more expensive motherboard, protecting it from spills. And I'm glad there was no mention of the adaptive keyboard (touchscreen F keys) that Apple also tried and failed at making a thing.
- ktallett 1y ago
  I question why the butterfly keyboard wouldn't be needed once screens were larger. I use a MNT Reform and a mechanical keyboard is still vastly superior.
  - duskwuff 1y ago
    You may be thinking of butterfly keyboard switches, which aren't what is being discussed here. The Thinkpad "butterfly keyboard" was a design which moved pieces of the keyboard around to make a keyboard wider than the laptop pop out when the laptop was opened. This video has a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVrpRgKS2x4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVrpRgKS2x4 The purpose of this design was to allow a small laptop, with a small screen, to have a near full-size keyboard. Once larger screens forced laptops to become larger as well, this design was no longer needed.
    - ktallett 1y ago
      Ah yes! My mistake. I didn't realise that was what that was called. I did have one of those for a little while as a lab computer as it beat the size requirements allowed into the lab. I mean it was old for it's time when I used it but plugged in, it would do text files and csv.
rs186 1y ago
Interesting that we have tons of interviews, podcasts and books about how Apple design their hardware and software, but barely anything when it comes to other PCs or OSes. I have read some books and they are disappointing.
- hakfoo 1y ago
  I assumed much of the PC industry wasn't doing "design" so much as "what's available in stock and quantity." Only the largest players-- the Dells and HPs and Acers-- really made much design decisions with custom cases and peripherals, but their teams might have some interesting stories to tell. It might be hard to turn it into a mainstream appeal story, rather than a industrial design tech-journal one.
dehrmann 1y ago
> There was a giant scare that this Chinese company was going to destroy ThinkPad It's been long enough to say that Lenovo really did right by the Thinkpad name. I recently switched from an X1 Carbon to a Macbook Pro because of Windows issues, and I miss the Thinkpad is built and feels. The case isn't as sharp, I prefer the trackpoint, plastic is weirdly more durable because it can flex, and all the parts are replaceable.
scrlk 1y ago
> When designing the 25th anniversary ThinkPad, which came out in 2017, Hill brought back the ThinkLight, but he actually wanted to have – for the first time – two LEDs instead of one. The dual lights would have eliminated shadows and provided even better illumination, but unfortunately, this effort proved too costly to make it into the final product. Dual ThinkLights appeared on two models - W700 & W701: https://youtu.be/LSHP7VRs0bI?t=658 https://youtu.be/LSHP7VRs0bI?t=658 There was also a dual screen variant, which had a secondary screen that popped out to the right of the primary screen: https://youtu.be/mzhZH9LK1ac?t=26 https://youtu.be/mzhZH9LK1ac?t=26
- ktallett 1y ago
  Too costly to have two LEDs? I question if that is the case.
  - scrlk 1y ago
    The 25th Anniversary ThinkPad was a modified T470. I assume that the cost issues were related to a requirement to minimise the number of case modifications required from the stock T470. Incorporating a ThinkLight would require a redesigned display lid.
    - ktallett 1y ago
      I get what you mean but still, it's a one off special edition. A company as big as Lenovo doesn't need to do everything for profit. I would understand if it was a new model design that could sell tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands but the T25 was a limited run, make it beautiful.
drooopy 1y ago
I love how he also doesn't care about the X9.
divbzero 1y ago
I still have my 2005 ThinkPad X41 which has both a TrackPoint and a ThinkLight. The laptop has a dead battery, but works as good as new when plugged in.
- marttt 1y ago
  On my trusty T42 (bought ~10 years ago for about 30 euros) the GPU finally died last winter (heavy, unreadable screen flicker during every slightly more intensive task). It has an IPS panel which itself still seems to be in order, though. Luckily, I accidentally saw a similar one (no IPS, though) for 26 euros, so I'm rocking again. Those 4:3 screens and T4x series keyboards are really hard to let go, and if your activities allow for more text-oriented operating systems (I installed 9front on mine, but used to be a dedicated Tinycore Linux user, and the T42 is also nice with the various open source DOSes we have these days), they're still perfectly capable machines for 90% of relevant tasks. CF cards make very nice poor man's SSDs, so the machine is also very quiet with this setup, so far the fan rarely turns on. As for my previous T42, I think I really squeezed a lot out of it, including using it to produce (and, on a few occasions, record live) 1-hour radio shows for my country's public broadcasting (honored to contribute to a "landmark" series where high production quality is a must). It was always fun to think that here I am, working on a 30€ 15-year-old machine, whereas other guys are doing their exact same montages on 2000€ Macbooks -- and regarding the resulting production, the radio listener will notice no difference whatsoever. :) Obviously, though, this is a geek thing, those Macs probably do make a lot of sense for serious audio production. It's completely crazy, though, how you can get a more or less perfectly working (!) Thinkpad for 25-30 euros, whereas that same brand new machine cost something like 2k in 2007.
  - jtwaleson 1y ago
    I believe you can reflow the soldering on the GPU on the T42 by heating it up, this was a common problem.
penguin_booze 1y ago
One gripe I have with Lenovo keyboards is that the Fn key is at the left-most edge of the bottom row. Per my muscle memory, it's the Control key that ought to be there, not Fn.
- normie3000 1y ago
  This can be switched in BIOS.
  - maratc 1y ago
    Not on my T42 from 2005 :(
- scrlk 1y ago
  Starting in 2024, Lenovo adopted the 'conventional' control/function key layout for ThinkPads.
  - jtwaleson 1y ago
    The keys are identical though, so if you're careful you can swap the physical ones back to the proper way ;)
- dralley 1y ago
  They're trying to ape the Apple layout. I agree, it's annoying.
  - maratc 1y ago
    They were trying to ape the Apple layout without even understanding the Apple layout. Apple layout works because the most used modifier is "Command". There are two of them, on both sides of Space. You can quickly find them without looking at the keyboard: put a thumb on the (extra-wide) space and move to the side until you get to the next button. That's "Cmd". Less-used button is Option, there are two of them, next to Command further away from Space, you can find them in a similar manner by moving over two buttons. (Option is mostly used together with Command.) Even less used is Control, there's only one, and it's even farther away from left Option. Finally, the thing that's hardly ever used is Fn which is stuck in the most remote location -- down-left corner. On PCs, Ctrl is the most used button, there are two of them, on extreme left and right, you can quickly find them without looking at the keyboard: put a pinky on the "no keys" space outside of keys and move it towards where the keys are. Once you hit the key, it's Ctrl. What ThinkPad designers did was to break this in the most brutal manner: by putting the least used button in the most used position. If they wanted to ape the Apple layout, they would do great by understanding the Apple layout first.
elric 1y ago
I think optimising for thinness is a stupid goal. I get wanting to reduce weight, but volume and mass are two different metrics. Thicker laptops can have better cooling, bigger batteries, easier maintenance, a bloody ethernet port, and probably better keyboards. For some reason Lenovo has made the ThinkPad keyboard worse with every new generation. They're still better than other laptop keyboards, but my goodness the margin is shrinking. And while David Hill may claim that Lenovo TPs are as good as (or better than) IBM's, the number of repairs mine have had tell a different story. Since the x230, every single ThinkPad I've owned had to have its mainboard replaced. Sometimes even twice.
- somanyphotons 1y ago
  Thickness does change the ergonomics when typing
  - throw_m239339 1y ago
    Thicker keys absolutely do change the ergonomics when typing.
- al_borland 1y ago
  When something is large and light, the consumer view is that it is cheaply made. That's a problem when trying to sell an expensive product.
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    I believe that impression comes from the laptop feeling “hollow” more than it does from it being light. This could probably be engineered around by doing things like holding the battery up against the laptop’s palm rest with a rim of TPU or similar between the battery and the case to deaden vibrations and make it feel more “solid”.
    - al_borland 1y ago
      Haven’t some products been found to have weights inside just to make them feel more premium?
Elfener 1y ago
The trackpoint and the nice keys are one thing, but what I really want all laptops to have is dedicated home/end/pgup/pgdn keys and in a normal-looking layout (as in 7-row or as in a full keyboard). I find it weird that even framework has gone with a keyboard where a bunch of keys are missing. (Sent from my Thinkpad T410)
- taskforcegemini 1y ago
  for that very reason I got a t25 and recently an old used x220 and two x220t (the latter two for the superior screen)
boomskats 1y ago
I'm just gonna leave this here https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/ https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
bArray 1y ago
> However, Hill said, he thought about putting a butterfly keyboard on a netbook when they were a viable product category in the late aughts. I really want to see sub-11" notebooks again. They were super cool travel laptops. > The dual lights would have eliminated shadows and provided even better illumination, but unfortunately, this effort proved too costly to make it into the final product. Ridiculous. Function must be allowed to win sometimes.
- goosedragons 1y ago
  GPD has some. Particularly the GPD Pocket 4. 8.8" Notebook with a AMD HX 370 processor and up to 64GB RAM. Can even work as a KVM.
  - nosrepa 1y ago
    I have one and I love it, but damn do I hate the key layout on it. Which is a shame because they have saner layouts on some of their smaller offerings.
    - Fluorescence 1y ago
      I hate that they deliberately obscure the keyboard in all their product pictures. I couldn't see what was wrong until looking at a review. Sounds great otherwise but that's disappointingly deceptive. I wish such devices had hot-swappable plates and key caps to let us choose our own compromises. Key layout seems like such a trivial, almost cosmetic, aspect that can make a device a misery overshadowing much higher complexity/cost tech like the screen and internals.
    - goosedragons 1y ago
      Yeah, I don't have one but it is tempting. I was thinking maybe of using Kmonad or something to turn the ; key into some sort of layer shift if I got one. But I'm already pretty used to using key layers. I think they did it that way to make a more usable keyboard for touch typing at that size? The smaller devices like the Win Mini seem to have more like thumb keys.
spankibalt 1y ago
https://archive.ph/rJprW https://archive.ph/rJprW
yc-kraln 1y ago
Definitely had fun as I was scrolling the article with a Trackpoint using the scrolling button. 100% my preferred way to laptop.
dekhn 1y ago
In England the nub was referred to as the nipple. I had a series of think pads. I think the last one was a t61p running Lennox and it was truly glorious. I can't remember if it was that model or an earlier one which had a battery known as the tumor which stuck out the back. You could hibernate the laptop and swap in another battery and turn the laptop back on and keep working without rebooting. Everything since then for me has been MacBooks or Dell laptops. Neither brings me as much joy.
- theandrewbailey 1y ago
  I went to a college in Utah (USA) that issued ThinkPads to every student. Since 90% of the students were guys, of course it was called the nipple.
ofalkaed 1y ago
I wish lenovo would make a modern 700c, nice and thin, no trackpad, 11" screen and three mouse buttons. Would be the ideal portable for me.
musicale 1y ago
4:3 did nothing wrong.
brikym 1y ago
I have always found thinkpads to be the most overrated laptops ever. I far prefer Macbooks in all aspects beit ergonomics, aesthetics or performance. I don't get the love for Thinkpads. Maybe it's just nostelgia clouding people's judgement because I just see something which is clunky, ugly, plastic, noisy with a crap screen and crap battery life. The keyboard is the only thing I like more, but the macbook keyboards are okay these days.
- strix_varius 1y ago
  I use both daily (work/personal) and I've come to agree. My work MBP is just better than my personal Thinkpad in all respects, despite having nearly identical pricetags. I bought it because I wanted frankly, something different than the Mbps I've had from work for 15 years, and to go Linux-first. OSX annoys me about as much as Linux does, so the software is on par, but the hardware just can't touch Apple hardware. I wish this weren't the case, but it is.
- microtonal 1y ago
  I have both and would say that they just have different priorities. ThinkPad is an open platform, so you can run Linux. If you want to run Linux, modern MacBooks are no good. Yes, you could run Asahi on an M1/M2, but things like DP-Alt and Thunderbolt are still not supported. Whereas I could plug in my T14 Gen 5 AMD with Linux to a Thunderbolt display and it worked on day 1. ThinkPads are also much more upgradable and serviceable than a MacBook. I popped in 64GiB RAM, 2 TB NVMe SSD, and a WWAN modem and it cost me almost nothing. However. doing so requires a less flat, less glued, etc. system, which requires other compromises. Getting a MacBook with similar memory and storage would cost 5300 Euro (compared to ~1400-1500 for the ThinkPad) and I still wouldn't have WWAN (far better CPU/GPU though, but I especially want the RAM/storage). I fully agree though that for the price MacBooks have far better screens, cooling systems, and the unibody aluminium case is pretty much unbeatable. CPU-wise, AMD APUs have caught up a lot. clunky, ugly, plastic, noisy with a crap screen and crap battery life I think that's not really a fair characterization. There is are wide gap between a good ThinkPad and e.g. a cheap Acer (to which your description would apply). My T14 even gets 6-7 hours on Linux (which isn't exactly known for great battery life), so it would probably do 10 hours on Windows. I only head the fan when I load the system a lot and even then it's fairly quit. And the case, even though it's not aluminium is still pretty nice/robust. I have M1 Pro and M3 Pro MacBooks to compare to. IMO MacBook and ThinkPads are great in different ways. Ideally I'd want to have a MacBook with the upgradeability/repairability of a ThinkPad that can run NixOS with all peripherals supported.
whyenot 1y ago
Maybe I’m just sentimental, but My Thinkpad x300 was the toughest, most productive laptop that I have owned. I took that laptop deep into the Amazon where it was exposed to near 100% humidity for months. It’s plastic / polycarbonate shell stood up to a tremendous amount of abuse, and it’s keyboard was awesome. Times have changed and now I mostly use Apple products, but they are not nearly as tough, or have as nice of a keyboard as that X300.
- lproven 1y ago
  I run Fedora 42 on one, and it's surprisingly nippy even today.
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    Even my x200 is ticking along fine here on the latest Debian.
theandrewbailey 1y ago
> After the sale, Hill got to work on building the ultimate ThinkPad, the X300. When it launched in early 2008, the X300 was one of the thinnest and lightest laptops made... It was also the first ThinkPad to ship without an IBM logo on it. I swear that the ThinkPad z61p I got in July 2007 had Lenovo branding on it.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

204 points by LorenDB 1y ago

gjvc 1y ago

golf tee (aka soft rim cap) trackpoint ftw

> "It's very difficult to make a seven-row keyboard anymore because of the aspect ratio of the display and the whole arrangement of the pieces on the inside," he said. "It's a decision that was not made lightly, however. I still like the seven-row keyboard and, as aspect ratios change, and they continue to change, I don't know. Maybe someday somebody will be interested in it again." The sad part is, the Framework 13 has a 3:2 display (with a stupidly large bottom bezel, too, for good reasons), but still uses a bog-standard modern laptop keyboard, including (unlike the ThinkPad) the miserable half-height arrow keys. They did bother to make a Copilot key, though. Just not a better keyboard.

walterbell 1y ago
> aspect ratio of the display Meanwhile, Apple sold 500+ million HiDPI 4:3 displays on iPads. Do they have a supply chain lock on 4:3 screens?
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  Possibly. It’s hugely expensive to order a completely custom screen, and I know Framework waited for a long time for a better 3:2 display to come onto the market after the initial one—the current better panel is actually a compromise that loses some pixels to rounded corners, which is fine but IMO not “pay $270+tax+shipping for the upgrade” fine. Looking at the specs of the screens, I’m almost sure that both the original 2256×1504 one and the rounded-corners 2880×1920 one are actually identical to the ones in the Microsoft Surface (changed to a matte finish), so it’s Microsoft footing the custom-screen bill in this case. (I’ve heard we’re not getting small phones for a similar reason: you would need to sell a lot of phones to justify a new screen, and all the small-phone people will still begrudgingly buy a large one if there are no small ones.)
  - cosmic_cheese 1y ago
    The big selling point of the higher tier FW13 screen option is that it’s conducive to 2x/200% UI scaling, which is surprisingly rare in x86 laptops and is desirable under Linux. Fractional scaling displays technically work but have some notable quirks, where 2x scaling has worked flawlessly for a long time.
- masklinn 1y ago
  I’m pretty sure it’s just that 16:9 are so ubiquitous they’re by far the cheapest option. Hell, Apple shipping millions of 4:3 should keep them reasonable affordable. Same with 16:10 back when those were still a thing (because of the notch Apple now uses 9:5.85 displays to retain a rectangular 16:10 fullscreen).
ginko 1y ago
No one asked for a 16:9 thinkpad though.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  16:9 displays were inevitable due to the economies of scale form the TV industry. It's a shame they had to be 1366x768 for so long. I remember many eons ago in the last 2000s to early 2010s when I wanted a 16:10 monitor for my PC and the price difference between 1920x1080 and 1920x1200 or between 2560x1440 and 2560x1600 was massive, that it made no sense to get the few extra vertical pixels of the 16:10 unless you were loaded and money was no issue. Even 4k 16:9 monitors a few years after launch, were cheaper than 16:10 2560x1600 ones which have already been on the market far longer. Crazy.
  - 4ad 1y ago
    I call BS on that, as Macbooks somehow always kept being 16:10. In fact you could easily buy 16:10 panels, I know because for many years I upgraded old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Nothing what I said is BS, the price differences on external 16:10 monitors were significantly more expensive than 16:9 ones. Look it up. > old 16:10 Thinkpads with modern displays. Yes you're talking about the really old 16:10 ones from the mid to late 2000s, right before they switched to 16:9 cause they were cheaper to make due to the HD TV era. Add then today they switched back to 16:10. So no, it's no BS that scale allows for much cheaper products, but Apple could stick to 16:10 since they never catered to cheap and it would probably cost them more in SW dev and tooling to reengineer their OS GUI and chassis for 16:9 than to keep the production lines as is since their product line back then had like 3 laptops total. And maybe start with good faith before screaming BS. No need to be rude just because people have different opinions and experiences than you.
      - 1y ago
wpm 1y ago
The Framework keyboard is precisely why I haven’t bought one. The mixed height arrow key thing sucked on the touchbar MacBook Pros, they suck on FWs too. The second the 13 gets a normal inverted T, I buy one. In the meantime, I’m waiting on a display converter board to show up from China so I can install a modernish 1440p display in my T420.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  The “normal” inverted T is just another variation of the same suckage as far as I’m concerned (slightly worse, if anything, because I tend to wear away the paint—and eventually plastic—on a tiny left-arrow key faster than on a normal one). Look at the photos in TFA[1] for how good arrow keys are arranged. [1] e.g. https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg (the presence of a Break key almost makes me cry)
  - normie3000 1y ago
    > https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg https://regmedia.co.uk/2025/07/30/hill7.jpg Doesn't this photo show an inverted T?
    - notpushkin 1y ago
      I think a “normal” inverted T consists of half-height keys (i.e. used on most current laptops). ThinkPads used slightly higher arrow keys for a while, not sure about now.
      - layer8 1y ago
        A normal inverted T is what is on a standard desktop PC keyboard: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_keys.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Arrow_ke... While half-height arrow keys have become common on laptops, that's probably not what GP (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44769440) meant by "normal". ThinkPads generally use slightly smaller keys for the arrow keys, but still significantly taller than half-height, like for example here: https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49493/4Y40X49493-560x450-01.8449bcbf5e5aa641.png https://p3-ofp.static.pub/ShareResource/560x450/SSNP/4Y40X49... What people really want is a full-height inverted T like on this Lenovo gaming laptop: https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszorypehb4ern6ol5r2lur937054.png https://p1-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2025/05/21/uft1eixrszoryp...
nrp 1y ago
We have 1.5mm key travel, the keyboard is replaceable, and the vast majority of our keyboard artwork options don’t have a Copilot logo.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  All true. My previous laptop was a 2014 MBP, and the two basically feel the same. I’d say the MBP’s layout is marginally worse because of the stupid power key and the half-size left and right arrows, and of course the MBP’s construction makes your life hell if you spill liquid on the keyboard and need to replace it. (Framework’s prohibition on freight forwarding makes my life difficult in the same situation, but that’s a me problem—I should have taken the hint that I wasn’t wanted when I was jumping through hoops to buy it in the first place.) It’s not a bad keyboard. As far as laptops of the last decade go, it’s even a good one. But the up/down arrows sucked on the MBP and they (though not left/right) suck on the FW13, I expect(?) because a rectangular keyboard ends up cheaper than one with protruding arrows. Furthermore, my (grandparent) comment was about how vertical shrinkage made the keyboard smaller but the FW13’s taller screen didn’t restore the missing keys, and if half-size up/down arrows just suck to use, Home/End/PgUp/PgDn hidden behind Fn suck to a Pavlovian extent: I didn’t realize how much the MBP trained me out of using them before I had to use an older ThinkPad for a bit that had them on separate keys. I won’t even mention Ctrl-Break except to look in its direction wistfully. Finally, the Copilot key is of course a distraction. I don’t know what it actually sends on those keyboards, but if I can map that to Compose I couldn’t care less about what’s drawn on it. It’s just sad that, after everything, that distraction is what ended up being the first substantial change to the FW13’s keyboard.
- nh2 1y ago
  Please just give us an option to buy a 7 row Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint. There are talented keyboard makers like Tex that already pulled this off, making better hardware than Lenovo itself, and you could instantaneously win most Thinkpad users over, likely permanently.
- dogcow 1y ago
  Please offer a good TrackPoint keyboard. Please.
spankibalt 1y ago
Turn the ThinkPad X12 into a modernized and more maintainable HP ZBook x2 G4, complete with EMR stylus. Keep the size or make it even smaller. Offer a bunch of first-rate keyboard options. For both machine's got the best form factor in that size-class there is: the detachable, the evolution of the convertible of yesteryear. It's really not hard to figure out. Whatcha get instead? Garbage like silly rolling-display laptops. Or even worse, The Homer of the laptop world: these bizarre contraptions with two or three foldout displays. It's just missing a cup holder. Framework borked it here as well. I just don't understand why you waste time, energy and money on developing and building a substandard machine (Framework 12) in an outdated form factor.

raffael_de 1y ago

There is something about the classic Thinkpad design which strikes me as more than just nostalgia. More like a Jungian archetype. Honest, virtuous and sturdy. The ultimate example of form follows function. The Stroke 8 of computers. A masculine counterpart to the femininity of Apple products (nttawwi).

WillAdams 1y ago
The irony is, back when Steve Jobs first came back to Apple from NeXT, the Apple press on at least one occasion complained of him using a ThinkPad, even stating it was running Windows 95, w/o considering the NeXT compatibility list, that that model was on it, and that it actually ran NeXTstep and Lighthouse Design's Concurrence.app for presentations.
marttt 1y ago
> More like a Jungian archetype. Honest, virtuous and sturdy. +1, comparison of the day for sure!

WillAdams 1y ago

The fibrous Trackpoint is still my absolute favourite. For folks who want more in-depth backstory, going all the way back to the beginning and the origin of the "ThinkPad" name see: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483933.ThinkPad https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483933.ThinkPad I really wish that there would be a true heir to the mantle, and a return to some of the original ideas, esp. the early stylus models and variants such as the TransNote --- if Lenovo would do a version of their Yogabook 9i under the ThinkPad brand and use a Wacom EMR stylus and put a Trackpoint on the keyboard it'd be an instabuy for me --- as it is, I use a Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 and only get a Trackpoint when using my docking setup w/ https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd026745-thinkpad-compact-usb-keyboard-with-trackpoint-overview-and-service-parts https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd026745-thinkpad... (need to find time to buy an updated one (and a spare) w/ USB-C)

neilv 1y ago
> (need to find time to buy an updated one (and a spare) w/ USB-C) Once you find a TrackPoint keyboard model that you like, buy spares, since you might have a hard time getting a good design in the future. For example, they went to a lot of trouble to develop TrackPoint keyboard SK-8855, with community input, and then discontinued it. To cries of anguish, scalpers and price-gouging on last remaining stock, and, years later, people selling filthy broken used ones for more than they cost new. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd005137-thinkpad-usb-keyboard-with-trackpoint-overview https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd005137-thinkpad... I don't think Lenovo has quite the same design sensibilities as IBM ThinkPad team had: * "You, the user, want to throw away IBM's famed keyboards, and have a chiclet keyboard as the only option." (No.) * "You want to remove the function keys that aren't necessary for Twitter." (No.) * "You want to remove the tactile cues from TrackPoint buttons, so it looks more sleek, for your TikTok scrolling." (No. This is not a mindless "content consumer" device. "Think" is right there, in the name.) * "You want to remove the TrackPoint buttons altogether, from a workstation laptop, so you can get RSI from clicking with your thumb on the touchpad below instead." (No, and now I think you are just trying to sabotage all the smart people who were using ThinkPads before.) I'm still surprised that IBM was even allowed by the US gov't to sell ThinkPad to China. It was beloved fleet tech of US big business and government, as well beloved by techies ("innovators"). And maybe also a source of technology excellence pride, like fewer companies are now. Imagine the iPhone business being sold to China. Or Cisco being sold.

jmclnx 1y ago

All I need is the trackpoint, I would never consider buying a laptop without one.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

michalpleban 1y ago

I have never used the butterfly keyboard 700C (my first ThinkPad was the 365X) but I immediately fell in love with the trackpoint since day one. I will never go back to a mouse. Fortunately you can buy USB keyboards with trackpoints so that's what I'm using for my desktop. It's also kinda funny when other people ask me to use my computer, and then hunt around my desk for the mouse ;)

p_ing 1y ago

Is anyone aware of a similar type of article for the ThinkPad Power 800 series? I know the trackpoint was popular but I could never get used to it; the pressure I felt I needed to apply eventually hurt my fingertip.

mxuribe 1y ago

Man, i love me some Thinkpad laptops! For me, its the overall sturdiness, the historic ability to more easily swap out components, and the keys and keyboard combo. I haven't had so many Thinkpads as others have had, but of the few i have owned, i think so far the T420 from i think circa 2011 (?) seemed to have the best balance of sturdy boxy goodness and wonderful keys and keyboard. While i would not say that i am a keyboard snob, i can certainly appreciate differences between the different types of keyboards like chiclets, or mechanical dedicated keyboards, etc. I'm sure beyond functional aspects, there is no doubt a nostalgia that i feel for these machines that is solely based on emotion...but who cares, since i always get more value than whatever i paid for them! On another aspect to this, it feels like Framework laptops has a chance to perhaps capture at least some of the positive sentiment that folks have/had for Thinkpads. I mean, sure, the swap-ability of the components is the most obvious comparison...but, i think Framework has also fostered a following by a community, that, if they play their cards right - and produce good, solid products - can turn into a successor to Thinkpads. I mean, obviously thinkpads are still here and all...but the folks at Framework have a big chance here, and i welcome the competition (since we all win as consumer if there is good, solid choices in the marketplace). Let's hope both Thinkpads and Framework (and any other competitors) keep moving the needle forward to empower users with more options for good solid design, easy/self-repair, component swap-ability, sturdy/dependable hardware, and fair pricing!

karaterobot 1y ago

> Hill said that the X300 is the favorite ThinkPad he worked on, not only because of its thinness, but also because it proved that, under Lenovo, he could build an even better product than he had for IBM. > "There was a giant scare that this Chinese company was going to destroy ThinkPad, and it was going to become cheerful and ruin it and all this kind of stuff," he said. 'As good' can mean different things. My first two laptops were IBM Thinkpads. In 2000 or so, I was carrying one in my hands down some concrete stairs. I tripped, bounced the laptop down 2-3 stairs, then landed on my knee on top of it. No visible marks, and it booted right up and worked flawlessly for years afterward. This was with a platter hard drive, too. I don't remember the X300, but the current Lenovo Thinkpads don't strike me as being quite as robust as the tanks they used to make.

1970-01-01 1y ago

The forced redesign story was the icing on the cake. You never redesign a best selling item. If you try, the changes will be made to you.

garciansmith 1y ago

I miss the ThinkLight (and the dual-light idea he had sounds great). Useful when working in a dark environment to look at papers and whatnot, or just to provide a nice amount of ambient light to smooth out the contrast between the screen itself and your surroundings. Most modern laptops have backlit keys, but those don't help in those cases; they are pretty much only useful for people who can't touch type.

bobson381 1y ago
I actually used to work at a place that had regular power outages because it was remote and ran on hydropower. We had a bunch of old think pads with the think light at the time that were standard staff issue, and they were awesome for working on any technology or system stuff when power was out but wireless was on with the UPSs. Such a cool feature and I do wish they still had it. Along with the locking lids, the 430 and 530s were tanklike.
marttt 1y ago
Yeah, it has got me "in the zone" for writing many times. On a side note, I also like the "click" when I close the lid on my T42. Mentally balancing for sure :). I bought a used P50 for our son, and while it's allright (even the keyboard -- although it doesn't give that particular feel of the T4x era keyboards), it lacks both of those extra-relevant features. No click on closing, and a mere backlit keyboard. But, that's life!
Melatonic 1y ago
Exactly - the light was far more useful than just for illuminating the keyboard
theandrewbailey 1y ago
All the ThinkLights I've used were dim, barely brighter than the backlight bleed from the screen. I would have to be in a pitch black room (at night with no light, not even a street light outside) for it to be useful.

Izkata 1y ago

> However, at this point, the Soft Dome design has won out with a rather large, flat top that's filled with dots for texture and an easy grip. I've only ever used the original eraser head and the current soft dome, and remember the original being nice because it was tall enough to tilt my finger slightly and push, while the current one is annoying to use because they're too short to do that and my fingers get almost no grip on them and slip around.

esseph 1y ago
You can order packs of different shapes and sizes on Amazon

tonydav 1y ago

I can't have a laptop without the trackpoint. But why can't my fulloption P16 gen2 have a working suspend sleep S3? It's a furnace in my backpack. Also why lose the RJ45? Sadly there is no better laptop.. - ecc - trackpoint +3buttons, could be without touchpad - camera shutter privacy - smartcard reader - 2 nvme (<3 zfs mirror) - big battery <3 NixOS

microtonal 1y ago
My T14 Gen 5 has RJ45, so they are not completely gone.

dehrmann 1y ago

A general takeaway from this is that there were a number of innovations that made sense at the time, but as the landscape changed, they lost their utility. The butterfly keyboard wasn't needed once screens got larger. The switch to widescreen mean the 7th row of keys competed with the trackpad for real estate. The lid latch was no longer needed as screens got lighter. Top-of-screen keyboard lighting got replaced by backlighting. Don't get married to once-smart ideas that no longer make sense. Also surprised there was no mention of docking HDD heads when the in-device accelerometer (I think this even predates the Wii and iPhone) detects a drop or the keyboard that had drain holes that bypass the much more expensive motherboard, protecting it from spills. And I'm glad there was no mention of the adaptive keyboard (touchscreen F keys) that Apple also tried and failed at making a thing.

ktallett 1y ago
I question why the butterfly keyboard wouldn't be needed once screens were larger. I use a MNT Reform and a mechanical keyboard is still vastly superior.
- duskwuff 1y ago
  You may be thinking of butterfly keyboard switches, which aren't what is being discussed here. The Thinkpad "butterfly keyboard" was a design which moved pieces of the keyboard around to make a keyboard wider than the laptop pop out when the laptop was opened. This video has a demonstration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVrpRgKS2x4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVrpRgKS2x4 The purpose of this design was to allow a small laptop, with a small screen, to have a near full-size keyboard. Once larger screens forced laptops to become larger as well, this design was no longer needed.
  - ktallett 1y ago
    Ah yes! My mistake. I didn't realise that was what that was called. I did have one of those for a little while as a lab computer as it beat the size requirements allowed into the lab. I mean it was old for it's time when I used it but plugged in, it would do text files and csv.

rs186 1y ago

Interesting that we have tons of interviews, podcasts and books about how Apple design their hardware and software, but barely anything when it comes to other PCs or OSes. I have read some books and they are disappointing.

hakfoo 1y ago
I assumed much of the PC industry wasn't doing "design" so much as "what's available in stock and quantity." Only the largest players-- the Dells and HPs and Acers-- really made much design decisions with custom cases and peripherals, but their teams might have some interesting stories to tell. It might be hard to turn it into a mainstream appeal story, rather than a industrial design tech-journal one.

dehrmann 1y ago

> There was a giant scare that this Chinese company was going to destroy ThinkPad It's been long enough to say that Lenovo really did right by the Thinkpad name. I recently switched from an X1 Carbon to a Macbook Pro because of Windows issues, and I miss the Thinkpad is built and feels. The case isn't as sharp, I prefer the trackpoint, plastic is weirdly more durable because it can flex, and all the parts are replaceable.

scrlk 1y ago

> When designing the 25th anniversary ThinkPad, which came out in 2017, Hill brought back the ThinkLight, but he actually wanted to have – for the first time – two LEDs instead of one. The dual lights would have eliminated shadows and provided even better illumination, but unfortunately, this effort proved too costly to make it into the final product. Dual ThinkLights appeared on two models - W700 & W701: https://youtu.be/LSHP7VRs0bI?t=658 https://youtu.be/LSHP7VRs0bI?t=658 There was also a dual screen variant, which had a secondary screen that popped out to the right of the primary screen: https://youtu.be/mzhZH9LK1ac?t=26 https://youtu.be/mzhZH9LK1ac?t=26

ktallett 1y ago
Too costly to have two LEDs? I question if that is the case.
- scrlk 1y ago
  The 25th Anniversary ThinkPad was a modified T470. I assume that the cost issues were related to a requirement to minimise the number of case modifications required from the stock T470. Incorporating a ThinkLight would require a redesigned display lid.
  - ktallett 1y ago
    I get what you mean but still, it's a one off special edition. A company as big as Lenovo doesn't need to do everything for profit. I would understand if it was a new model design that could sell tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands but the T25 was a limited run, make it beautiful.

drooopy 1y ago

I love how he also doesn't care about the X9.

divbzero 1y ago

I still have my 2005 ThinkPad X41 which has both a TrackPoint and a ThinkLight. The laptop has a dead battery, but works as good as new when plugged in.

marttt 1y ago
On my trusty T42 (bought ~10 years ago for about 30 euros) the GPU finally died last winter (heavy, unreadable screen flicker during every slightly more intensive task). It has an IPS panel which itself still seems to be in order, though. Luckily, I accidentally saw a similar one (no IPS, though) for 26 euros, so I'm rocking again. Those 4:3 screens and T4x series keyboards are really hard to let go, and if your activities allow for more text-oriented operating systems (I installed 9front on mine, but used to be a dedicated Tinycore Linux user, and the T42 is also nice with the various open source DOSes we have these days), they're still perfectly capable machines for 90% of relevant tasks. CF cards make very nice poor man's SSDs, so the machine is also very quiet with this setup, so far the fan rarely turns on. As for my previous T42, I think I really squeezed a lot out of it, including using it to produce (and, on a few occasions, record live) 1-hour radio shows for my country's public broadcasting (honored to contribute to a "landmark" series where high production quality is a must). It was always fun to think that here I am, working on a 30€ 15-year-old machine, whereas other guys are doing their exact same montages on 2000€ Macbooks -- and regarding the resulting production, the radio listener will notice no difference whatsoever. :) Obviously, though, this is a geek thing, those Macs probably do make a lot of sense for serious audio production. It's completely crazy, though, how you can get a more or less perfectly working (!) Thinkpad for 25-30 euros, whereas that same brand new machine cost something like 2k in 2007.
- jtwaleson 1y ago
  I believe you can reflow the soldering on the GPU on the T42 by heating it up, this was a common problem.

penguin_booze 1y ago

One gripe I have with Lenovo keyboards is that the Fn key is at the left-most edge of the bottom row. Per my muscle memory, it's the Control key that ought to be there, not Fn.

normie3000 1y ago
This can be switched in BIOS.
- maratc 1y ago
  Not on my T42 from 2005 :(
scrlk 1y ago
Starting in 2024, Lenovo adopted the 'conventional' control/function key layout for ThinkPads.
- jtwaleson 1y ago
  The keys are identical though, so if you're careful you can swap the physical ones back to the proper way ;)
dralley 1y ago
They're trying to ape the Apple layout. I agree, it's annoying.
- maratc 1y ago
  They were trying to ape the Apple layout without even understanding the Apple layout. Apple layout works because the most used modifier is "Command". There are two of them, on both sides of Space. You can quickly find them without looking at the keyboard: put a thumb on the (extra-wide) space and move to the side until you get to the next button. That's "Cmd". Less-used button is Option, there are two of them, next to Command further away from Space, you can find them in a similar manner by moving over two buttons. (Option is mostly used together with Command.) Even less used is Control, there's only one, and it's even farther away from left Option. Finally, the thing that's hardly ever used is Fn which is stuck in the most remote location -- down-left corner. On PCs, Ctrl is the most used button, there are two of them, on extreme left and right, you can quickly find them without looking at the keyboard: put a pinky on the "no keys" space outside of keys and move it towards where the keys are. Once you hit the key, it's Ctrl. What ThinkPad designers did was to break this in the most brutal manner: by putting the least used button in the most used position. If they wanted to ape the Apple layout, they would do great by understanding the Apple layout first.

elric 1y ago

I think optimising for thinness is a stupid goal. I get wanting to reduce weight, but volume and mass are two different metrics. Thicker laptops can have better cooling, bigger batteries, easier maintenance, a bloody ethernet port, and probably better keyboards. For some reason Lenovo has made the ThinkPad keyboard worse with every new generation. They're still better than other laptop keyboards, but my goodness the margin is shrinking. And while David Hill may claim that Lenovo TPs are as good as (or better than) IBM's, the number of repairs mine have had tell a different story. Since the x230, every single ThinkPad I've owned had to have its mainboard replaced. Sometimes even twice.

somanyphotons 1y ago
Thickness does change the ergonomics when typing
- throw_m239339 1y ago
  Thicker keys absolutely do change the ergonomics when typing.
al_borland 1y ago
When something is large and light, the consumer view is that it is cheaply made. That's a problem when trying to sell an expensive product.
- cosmic_cheese 1y ago
  I believe that impression comes from the laptop feeling “hollow” more than it does from it being light. This could probably be engineered around by doing things like holding the battery up against the laptop’s palm rest with a rim of TPU or similar between the battery and the case to deaden vibrations and make it feel more “solid”.
  - al_borland 1y ago
    Haven’t some products been found to have weights inside just to make them feel more premium?

Elfener 1y ago

The trackpoint and the nice keys are one thing, but what I really want all laptops to have is dedicated home/end/pgup/pgdn keys and in a normal-looking layout (as in 7-row or as in a full keyboard). I find it weird that even framework has gone with a keyboard where a bunch of keys are missing. (Sent from my Thinkpad T410)

taskforcegemini 1y ago
for that very reason I got a t25 and recently an old used x220 and two x220t (the latter two for the superior screen)

boomskats 1y ago

I'm just gonna leave this here https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/ https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/

bArray 1y ago

> However, Hill said, he thought about putting a butterfly keyboard on a netbook when they were a viable product category in the late aughts. I really want to see sub-11" notebooks again. They were super cool travel laptops. > The dual lights would have eliminated shadows and provided even better illumination, but unfortunately, this effort proved too costly to make it into the final product. Ridiculous. Function must be allowed to win sometimes.

goosedragons 1y ago
GPD has some. Particularly the GPD Pocket 4. 8.8" Notebook with a AMD HX 370 processor and up to 64GB RAM. Can even work as a KVM.
- nosrepa 1y ago
  I have one and I love it, but damn do I hate the key layout on it. Which is a shame because they have saner layouts on some of their smaller offerings.
  - Fluorescence 1y ago
    I hate that they deliberately obscure the keyboard in all their product pictures. I couldn't see what was wrong until looking at a review. Sounds great otherwise but that's disappointingly deceptive. I wish such devices had hot-swappable plates and key caps to let us choose our own compromises. Key layout seems like such a trivial, almost cosmetic, aspect that can make a device a misery overshadowing much higher complexity/cost tech like the screen and internals.
  - goosedragons 1y ago
    Yeah, I don't have one but it is tempting. I was thinking maybe of using Kmonad or something to turn the ; key into some sort of layer shift if I got one. But I'm already pretty used to using key layers. I think they did it that way to make a more usable keyboard for touch typing at that size? The smaller devices like the Win Mini seem to have more like thumb keys.

spankibalt 1y ago

https://archive.ph/rJprW https://archive.ph/rJprW

yc-kraln 1y ago

Definitely had fun as I was scrolling the article with a Trackpoint using the scrolling button. 100% my preferred way to laptop.

dekhn 1y ago

In England the nub was referred to as the nipple. I had a series of think pads. I think the last one was a t61p running Lennox and it was truly glorious. I can't remember if it was that model or an earlier one which had a battery known as the tumor which stuck out the back. You could hibernate the laptop and swap in another battery and turn the laptop back on and keep working without rebooting. Everything since then for me has been MacBooks or Dell laptops. Neither brings me as much joy.

theandrewbailey 1y ago
I went to a college in Utah (USA) that issued ThinkPads to every student. Since 90% of the students were guys, of course it was called the nipple.

ofalkaed 1y ago

I wish lenovo would make a modern 700c, nice and thin, no trackpad, 11" screen and three mouse buttons. Would be the ideal portable for me.

musicale 1y ago

4:3 did nothing wrong.

brikym 1y ago

I have always found thinkpads to be the most overrated laptops ever. I far prefer Macbooks in all aspects beit ergonomics, aesthetics or performance. I don't get the love for Thinkpads. Maybe it's just nostelgia clouding people's judgement because I just see something which is clunky, ugly, plastic, noisy with a crap screen and crap battery life. The keyboard is the only thing I like more, but the macbook keyboards are okay these days.

strix_varius 1y ago
I use both daily (work/personal) and I've come to agree. My work MBP is just better than my personal Thinkpad in all respects, despite having nearly identical pricetags. I bought it because I wanted frankly, something different than the Mbps I've had from work for 15 years, and to go Linux-first. OSX annoys me about as much as Linux does, so the software is on par, but the hardware just can't touch Apple hardware. I wish this weren't the case, but it is.
microtonal 1y ago
I have both and would say that they just have different priorities. ThinkPad is an open platform, so you can run Linux. If you want to run Linux, modern MacBooks are no good. Yes, you could run Asahi on an M1/M2, but things like DP-Alt and Thunderbolt are still not supported. Whereas I could plug in my T14 Gen 5 AMD with Linux to a Thunderbolt display and it worked on day 1. ThinkPads are also much more upgradable and serviceable than a MacBook. I popped in 64GiB RAM, 2 TB NVMe SSD, and a WWAN modem and it cost me almost nothing. However. doing so requires a less flat, less glued, etc. system, which requires other compromises. Getting a MacBook with similar memory and storage would cost 5300 Euro (compared to ~1400-1500 for the ThinkPad) and I still wouldn't have WWAN (far better CPU/GPU though, but I especially want the RAM/storage). I fully agree though that for the price MacBooks have far better screens, cooling systems, and the unibody aluminium case is pretty much unbeatable. CPU-wise, AMD APUs have caught up a lot. clunky, ugly, plastic, noisy with a crap screen and crap battery life I think that's not really a fair characterization. There is are wide gap between a good ThinkPad and e.g. a cheap Acer (to which your description would apply). My T14 even gets 6-7 hours on Linux (which isn't exactly known for great battery life), so it would probably do 10 hours on Windows. I only head the fan when I load the system a lot and even then it's fairly quit. And the case, even though it's not aluminium is still pretty nice/robust. I have M1 Pro and M3 Pro MacBooks to compare to. IMO MacBook and ThinkPads are great in different ways. Ideally I'd want to have a MacBook with the upgradeability/repairability of a ThinkPad that can run NixOS with all peripherals supported.

whyenot 1y ago

Maybe I’m just sentimental, but My Thinkpad x300 was the toughest, most productive laptop that I have owned. I took that laptop deep into the Amazon where it was exposed to near 100% humidity for months. It’s plastic / polycarbonate shell stood up to a tremendous amount of abuse, and it’s keyboard was awesome. Times have changed and now I mostly use Apple products, but they are not nearly as tough, or have as nice of a keyboard as that X300.

lproven 1y ago
I run Fedora 42 on one, and it's surprisingly nippy even today.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  Even my x200 is ticking along fine here on the latest Debian.

theandrewbailey 1y ago

> After the sale, Hill got to work on building the ultimate ThinkPad, the X300. When it launched in early 2008, the X300 was one of the thinnest and lightest laptops made... It was also the first ThinkPad to ship without an IBM logo on it. I swear that the ThinkPad z61p I got in July 2007 had Lenovo branding on it.

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