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Air Force unit suspends use of Sig Sauer pistol after shooting death of airman

231 points by duxup 1y ago

jleyank 1y ago
This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?
- colingauvin 1y ago
  This is table stakes for a carry pistol. The goal is to deliver a pistol that can be safely carried while chambered. You do not want to have to chamber if you need the gun.
- nowandlater 1y ago
  Firearms should never discharge unless the trigger has been pulled. It's an absolute bare minimum requirement. But you should always assume it will go off in the direction it's being pointed, even if you haven't pulled the trigger.
  - arrowsmith 1y ago
    First law of gun safety: never point a gun at anything you wouldn't want to destroy.
- hollywood_court 1y ago
  That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit confused as to what is causing these unintentional discharges. I know they had a problem that was addressed years ago so I’m not sure if the current problem guns are ones that were never sent back for modification or if there is some kind of unrelated problem. Regardless, I’ll still carry a Sig until CZ makes something comparable to a P365. But it’s unlikely that I’ll ever buy a new Sig again.
  - tshaddox 1y ago
    > IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.
    - jeffbee 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - rhcom2 1y ago
        There is definitely thinking among some who CC they're going to be John Wick but "good guy with a gun" is definitely not "totally imaginary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter#/media/File:2000-_Outcomes_of_active_shooter_attacks.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter#/media/File:200...
        Filmatic 1y ago
        2.8% is even worse than I’d have guessed. 2.8% of an already rare event is technically non-imaginary, but also definitely rounds down to imaginary. [edit] on top of that, is it even a one-digit percentage of that 2.8% of a rare event in which having a round chambered made any difference? Yet there are people confidently posting as if it’d be absurd to carry without a round chambered. That’s plainly nuts.
        rascul 1y ago
        That's only active shooter events. There are other cases where armed civilians have stopped a crime. I don't have such data readily available, though.
        JKCalhoun 1y ago
        Only an anecdote here: a guy I know claimed to have "defensively" used his gun. When I pressed him, it turned out that he drew his gun on a guy "that looked like a dirtbag" when he was staying at a motel. From his point of view his life would have been threatened (he might not be alive today!) had he not presented his firearm.
- ndrwdvvs 1y ago
  a reasonably experienced competitive shooter can draw from a holster and put two shots on target in ~1.25-1.5sec. racking a round while drawing would probably put it around 2-2.5sec. that 0.5-1sec advantage could make a pretty big difference.
  - evantbyrne 1y ago
    Gun crimes tend to be ambushes rather than something that even remotely resembles a duel.
    - 0x457 1y ago
      So every second counts?
      - evantbyrne 1y ago
        Can't pull when someone randomly has the drop on you chambered or not. Have to retreat/conceal first anyways. Far more likely to have a tragic accident than ever saving someone. Not long ago someone accidentally shot the neighbor's house right into the bathroom. Accidents happen way more frequently than random crime and should be the top concern for gun owners.
        gosub100 1y ago
        Then why aren't the police constantly having accidents blowing holes in everything?
        evantbyrne 1y ago
        The police committing accidental/negligent discharges of their service weapons has been a nearly constant source of social unrest in the US... Great example of how people carrying loaded firearms is a public safety hazard.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- nosignono 1y ago
  Yes, if you are conceal carrying, having a round chambered is typical. You don't want to have to draw and rack the slide in an emergency. Most modern pistols have multiple internal safeties to prevent firing without a trigger pull. There's something extremely wrong with the Sig 320.
- jandrewrogers 1y ago
  It makes no difference if there is a round in the chamber unless there is a fundamental design flaw. The P320 is apparently a rare case of this. This is extremely mature technology. People have been churning out defect-free designs for many decades. It is surprising that a company with the engineering experience and pedigree of SIG Sauer would design something with this issue. It would be like if Airbus designed a plane where the wing sometimes fell off mid-flight.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    "The P320 is apparently a rare case of this." Not that rare. Gen 1 and 2 Glocks had slam fires (that's right, "Safe Action" Glocks... the irony). The XDS had doubles or slam fires. I'm sure there were others, and now the P320.
    - deelowe 1y ago
      Then gen2 glock is old enough to be considered one the original striker fired pistols. The parent is right. There's no reason to be making these kinds of mistakes these days. They industry has been churning out millions of safe striker fire personal carry firearms for decades now.
      - giantg2 1y ago
        There shouldn't be a reason for these mistakes, but they keep happening. Do a little digging and you'll see. I've already mentioned the XDS and we all know the P320. The FNS had a similar issue too. I'm sure there are more if we dig. So while there are millions of safe striker fired guns, it appears there are also millions of unsafe ones in the past decade or so.
- Modified3019 1y ago
  It’s a personal taste kind of thing, where there’s decent arguments either way. Proponents of having a loaded chamber value having the firearm immediately ready, because a situation where they actually need to draw on someone/something may not have time or space to use both hands to rack their pistol before someone/something is on them. Those who want an empty chamber consider the increased safety vs potential malfunctions/accidents to outweigh the risks of being less able to respond to a small subset of threats.
- aerostable_slug 1y ago
  Tactical encounters often progress quickly enough that there's insufficient time to chamber a cartridge before the weapon may need to be fired. The context of who is carrying these pistols in this command may also help: they're issued to the Security Forces guarding strategic nuclear weapons (and their delivery systems). It is the highest priority security mission in the military.
  - varjag 1y ago
    One would rather hope those guarding the nukes have rifles…
    - dardeaup 1y ago
      It's not an either/or situation. I'm sure they would have BOTH pistols and rifles.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - deelowe 1y ago
      A rifle and a pistol serve different purposes. This would likely have both.
- chiph 1y ago
  It depends on your job in the USAF. I was a security augmentee[0] and we did not chamber a round. But the Airman who died likely protected missile silos, which are "no-lone zones" and they would be carrying with a round in the chamber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-person_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-person_rule The P320 is known to have accidental discharges for civilian owners (honestly - don't buy one). But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems. We will need to wait on the results of the investigation to find out. [0] An extra duty typically assigned to junior enlisted - we only armed up during exercises. Which brings back a story - we were waiting on the trucks to take us to our posts, and the room was full of Airmen armed with M16s and M60 machine guns. And we were all watching Justin Wilson cooking up some delicious Cajun food on the TV.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    "But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems." More lies and misdirection on Sig's part. The only mechanical difference is really the manual safety (which works on the trigger and not on the striker), and if we're being generous the second would be the spanner screw. They should have the upgraded FCU, but in the civilian world there are still reports of the issue even after the upgrade.
- homefree 1y ago
  In most cases with CCW if you were to actually need to use the weapon you would not have time to chamber a round. Even if you did have time (maybe you should run away?), doing so would draw attention to yourself (and might be fatal). The standard advice is to have one chambered or work to getting yourself comfortable with that over time.
- smithkl42 1y ago
  This is not military, but it's widely advocated in the concealed carry community that you should carry with one in the chamber. The argument is that with modern pistol designs and the right precautions, it's generally safe; and that many scenarios where you might need to defend yourself need all the possible speed you can get. Having to stroke your firearm to load it can easily add 2 seconds to your draw. That said, given all the stories I've read, I can't imagine carrying a P320 with one in the chamber.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- paulddraper 1y ago
  Answer: maybe. Depends how responsive you want to be.
- esseph 1y ago
  Always carry chambered. 1. When you need it you won't remember to chamber due to stress 2. stress causes fine motor skill distortion 3. Only draw when you are prepared to fire (or you end up dealing with Brandishing laws)
  - 8note 1y ago
    a better alternative would be to not carry. if the stress is gonna mess with your fine motor control, youre probably gonna accidentally shoot a bystander anyways, because you happened to have been laid off earlier in the day. the stree messes with your memory, so the barista looks like a threat. the stress messes with your fine motor skill, so you hit the guy waiting for his coffee. and of course, you gotta shoot the rest so theres no witnesses to have you charged for not actually doing self defence
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - kbelder 1y ago
      Yeah, happens all the time.
    - Der_Einzige 1y ago
      don't forget shooting yourself at the end so you don't have to feel bad about shooting others!
- the__alchemist 1y ago
  There are policies that vary by branch. The USAF, for example, carries the Beretta M9 pistol (Not sure when they switched to Sig? Must be recent) with the safety off, and in double-action mode. So, round chambered, and a single (hard) trigger pull (Or a manual cock + light pull) will fire the round. Dropping it should not fire it. I had to carry one in my vest in case of emergencies, and I never felt comfortable being one trigger pull from bang, while it's pointed at my waist for extended periods. Also, the double-action pull sucks, and it's harder to aim straight when putting so much muscle into the pull IMO. Had to have the finger on it in a certain way to get leverage. (The single-action pull after doesn't have this issue) So, I would accept the weapon from the equipment guys, insert the mag, send the slide forward, put it on fire since that's what you're supposed to do... then put it back on safe.
- bugsMarathon88 1y ago
  Can't you just put a seatbelt on right before a collision? A gun carried without one in the chamber is just a totem for emotional coddling, nothing more.
oldpersonintx2 1y ago
[dead]
nabla9 1y ago
Since all services have adopted it, idiot proofing should be the main feature of the gun because it will be carried with idiots all the time and casualties accumulate.
- java-man 1y ago
  Apparently not, when the profits are at stake.
- nosignono 1y ago
  This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.
  - dcrazy 1y ago
    I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately. A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - cityzen 1y ago
        [flagged]
colingauvin 1y ago
I have a 320C that I purchased in 2018 and have shot less than 100 rounds out of. I tried to sell it recently and was offered by two gun stores, less than $200. MSRP was around $500. Very annoyed with Sig over this. Their statements have been no help either, talk about Streisand effect.
- giantg2 1y ago
  That's a normal price drop for most modern plastic guns when trying to sell them to a store. They will offer $200 and sell it for $350 next to the brand new ones at $475.
- pensatoio 1y ago
  Honestly, I’d take the $200 and run.
  - prawn 1y ago
    Maybe give them the gun, take the $200 and then run.
    - blitzar 1y ago
      Better to be pointing it away from you when it goes off than having it pointed at you.
- gosub100 1y ago
  They are in a peculiar logical pickle: admit the gun is defective and lose all their current lawsuits plus many more that will dogpile on. Plus take a devastating hit to future sales. Or deny it, saving face and relying on FUD that the discharges (several were caught on video ) were random or somehow the fault of the owners. Sig were even using some anti-anti-gun arguments (the same retorts that 2A people use against no-gun advocates) against their own customers! Saying they weren't being responsible or something along that line. It's a terrible situation for everyone involved.
nosignono 1y ago
Everyone I know has been saying, for years, to not carry Sig 320s or their variants. Those things are dangerous. It's tragic it took the death of someone from what (at this point) was an entirely preventable outcome.
- andrewflnr 1y ago
  They didn't have good evidence until recently, though. Or at least that's my understanding.
  - nosignono 1y ago
    The FBI & DEA definitely did an investigation and came to the conclusion that, at a minimum, not all the safeties on the firearm work as designed. https://www.outdoorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/MSP-M18-Pistol-Evaluation_FINAL_Redacted_Outdoor_Life.pdf https://www.outdoorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/MSP-M...
    - andrewflnr 1y ago
      Dated 2024. P320 controversy is obviously a lot older than that.
TheAmazingRace 1y ago
It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.
- hollywood_court 1y ago
  Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322. I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.
  - unethical_ban 1y ago
    Yeah, just from a reputational standpoint I'm not sure I ever want to buy a Sig unless it's used. Too many other good brands to financially support. I've been eyeing a Canik or Walther, I want a premium trigger. The CZs are reliable weapons, but their trigger feels "gritty" to me. My Sig SP2022 is my favorite trigger of the guns I own.
    - 83 1y ago
      Fwiw, I love my PPQ Q5 Match.
    - hollywood_court 1y ago
      I had the opposite experience with the P-10 F. Granted it's the only CZ pistol I own. But it's also the only modern pistol I own that was ready to go right out of the box without any kind of needed improvements or modifications.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Why would it be crazy when they're completely separate systems?
mycodendral 1y ago
I don't think this issue has been reported on the P365/x-macro platform, for those discourage by this unfortunate situation. Different striker system.
- spacephysics 1y ago
  Yeah, i heard the P320 was originally a non-striker system that they modified to become a striker system to try and save research/development costs from creating a striker system from the ground up, which led to these wildly low tolerances in the FCU and ultimately a poorly designed firearm. I’ve heard of no issues from the P365 models. A knowledgeable firearm instructor I talked to mentioned the P320 and P365 are entirely different designs internally, and the P365 holds up to Sigs (previously) positive reputation
  - Ostrogoth 1y ago
    The P365 does have essentially one point of failure on the striker assembly (see here https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSauer/comments/c5ddz5/can_someone_tell_me_about_internal_safetys_on_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSauer/comments/c5ddz5/can_someon...), and lacks a trigger blade safety.
sparrish 1y ago
Not only does Sig deny that a problem exists, it denies these incidents are happening. I'll never buy another Sig. They've burned bridges IMHO.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Add to that they have issued a voluntary trigger system, but not a recall. Meaning they won't admit the problem (required for a recall) but acknowledge a need for a change. Even with the upgraded FCU (which all the military guns should have) there are still reports of this issue occurring.
- Analemma_ 1y ago
  It’s arguably even worse than that: their entire PR strategy around this issue has been not just denial but “accuse everyone who says the gun has a problem of being Woke Communist Gay Liberals out to destroy America”. If you’re not up to speed with the P320’s issues, it might sound like I’m exaggerating: I promise I’m not, you can go look up their press statements. I’d call it shameful behavior, but it’s increasingly SOP from a class of people who have deliberately exorcised their ability to feel any shame.
IlikeKitties 1y ago
[flagged]
darkteflon 1y ago
Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the safety?
- aerostable_slug 1y ago
  The manual safety primarily stops the weapon from firing if the trigger is inadvertently pressed. In these cases, the trigger was allegedly not being pressed when the pistol discharged. Aside from the manual safety (which is optional on this specific model of pistol), there are a number of passive safeties that normally must be overcome for the weapon to fire. Something appears to be failing in such a manner that the pistols are firing without being commanded to -- the trigger is not being inadvertently pressed, so the manual safety does not seem to be involved.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Most newer handguns don't have manual safeties. The ones that do should be carried with it on. If you carry with it off, you won't have the muscle memory to switch it off in the event it is accidentally engaged. Basically, if it has the safety, you should be doing the motion for disengaging it regardless of it's starting position. Some people still choose to carry with it off. You get into all sorts of odd stuff the more you look into it, such as MARSOC rubber-banding their 1911 grip safeties. Some additional context here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675889
  - sgjohnson 1y ago
    FWIW I love the 1911-style grip safety. It’s a shame that more guns don’t have that.
    - topspin 1y ago
      The Springfield XD line has this. At least one S&W Shield model as well. Both are excellent pistols. Not that you're wrong: grip safeties aren't common. It's amazing to me this P320 problem exists. Making semi-autos safe, even without a grip safety, has been a solved problem for over 40 years. How anyone thought a fully cocked striker is a reasonable design, or that the US military would adopt such a thing, is a disturbing mystery. After Sig gets financially destroyed, and the US military has to correct this monumental mistake, we can at least look forward to no further designs like this. Who knows, maybe the US will do something intelligent and just issue Glock 17's, like they should have done at least 20 years ago.
giantg2 1y ago
Interesting... I would have thought that maybe the military variant with the manual safety would be immune to this issue. It seems the manual safety is only a trigger block and not an additional or positive stiker block. It seems this offers no additional safety beyond keeping the trigger guard clear. So much for the military's insistence on a manual safety. Was there really any data showing the units using Glocks had issues related to a lack of manual safety? Sig added one, but clearly it was an afterthought.
sklargh 1y ago
Beyond the tragedy here - the implication of this is that USAF security forces were carrying a widely understood to be mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of nuclear weapons. I am not saying a stray round can cause a criticality but shooting a nuclear weapon or its associated delivery and logistics systems is suboptimal.
- dmurray 1y ago
  It's just as bad to be carrying mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of people. Not only that it looks callous if you say otherwise, but also the dollar cost the military put on a human life probably is higher than the typical cost of fixing a bullet hole in a nuclear weapon.
  - sklargh 1y ago
    Yeah I agree, school resource officers carry P320s. Unacceptable. Analyzing from a mission assurance vs. emotive standpoint.
int_19h 1y ago
For more on this saga: https://www.twz.com/land/army-making-no-changes-to-its-sig-p320-derived-pistols-after-concerning-fbi-report https://www.twz.com/land/army-making-no-changes-to-its-sig-p...
more_corn 1y ago
The problems with the civilian version (the 320) are well documented (by law enforcement officers and the civilian community) and there appears to be a root cause and solution. (Not an expert but replaced trigger group?)
- giantg2 1y ago
  There are still reports of the issue occurring with the upgraded FCU. All the military ones should already have the upgraded FCU.
- deelowe 1y ago
  Two different issues. Drop safe and uncommanded discharge. The rework is only for the former. Sig still denies the latter has ever happened. I'm guessing that's about to change though as I know of 3 separate instances of uncommanded discharge that are well documented. Two with law enforcement (one on video posted earlier in this thread) and now this one). There's something very off with the FCG in this firearm.
zxcvbn4038 1y ago
I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge once during testing—though officially, the results are inconclusive. Now, some law enforcement agencies are quietly replacing the P320 with the Glock 19. Personally, I’m keeping mine because it’s a great gun, and I love that 21-round magazine. However, I sent in my warranty card in case there’s a recall or something similar.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- GiorgioG 1y ago
  Odds are, you'll never experience the self-discharging issue. Having said that, I don't find a mostly-reliable firearm acceptable from a safety perspective. If I don't pull the trigger, it cannot go bang, ever, for any reason.
  - 303uru 1y ago
    I’m not taking odds on an edc item which takes a lot of banging around. Glock 18 is a simple choice.
    - hxtk 1y ago
      Off by one errors strike again, unless you EDC a machine pistol?
    - Alupis 1y ago
      I'm still very curious why the P320 beat out the venerable Glock 17 & 19 combo in the Army's recent selection. It would seem being able to change from duty to compact is more of a gimmick than practical. I'd wager most P320's will spend their service life in exactly one configuration. Sig does have a way of making every pistol feel like it was custom molded to your hand - but Glocks "Just Work".
Khaine 1y ago
Ian from Forgotten Weapons posted an interesting video on this a while back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE And then a more recent follow up https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY
- nickpinkston 1y ago
  +1 Forgotten Weapons Ian ("Gun Jesus") is amazing, even just from a history / engineering perspective. I like it far better than more Michael Bay leaning content in that space, though there's good fun in a "Can this 50 cal go thru X ?" videos haha.
  - TiredOfLife 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - ivraatiems 1y ago
      Do you have any evidence of this? The only thing I can find anywhere is a video of Ian timing a trans cosplayer who's doing a shooting match dressed as 2B from Neir: Automata (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhn18QhVzVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhn18QhVzVM), and an Instagram post of him with a gay 2nd-amendment advocate (https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nh1HIy_uS/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nh1HIy_uS/?hl=en).
      - TiredOfLife 1y ago
        https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/1e78bjz/karl_setting_the_record_straight_on_gun_jesus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/1e78bjz/k... As Karl has deleted his twitter posts, there is a screenshot
        ivraatiems 1y ago
        This isn't really sufficient, especially not from Karl. I agree with Karl's politics but not with branding someone a Nazi or anti-LGBT for staying out of them.
spl757 1y ago
There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other claim is that the P320 can fire without being dropped, and while holstered, seemingly on it's own. That's all I really know about it. I own a P320, and I consider it an unsafe weapon at this point. I have not had the self-recall fix done and I'll never chamber a round in it again, so I guess it's a paperweight now.
- ramses0 1y ago
  https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI
- pauljara 1y ago
  I'm a recently licensed firearms owner from Canada and as part of the safety training part of the licensing process, I became aware of how unsafe the P320 seemed to be. It really feels like that model needs to be taken off-market, undergo significant redesign, and for Sig's marketing sake, probably re-emerge as some new model like the SP321 where the S stands for "safety" :-) What I'm not as familiar with is why hasn't Sig done this? It really feels like they've been doing ad-hoc patch design adjustments to a fundamentally unsafe design at this point. But I'm also not very knowledgeable about firearms yet.
  - refulgentis 1y ago
    It's really sad because, straightforwardly, there's no penalty for just saying PEBKAC. Gun industry has tons of US legislative-granted legal immunity lest they ever accidentally become victim of a legal process that holds them accountable for, say, a mass shooting. They've been saying it was a political witchunt and avoiding dealing with it. This, hopefully, breaks the dam.
    - 1y ago
lenerdenator 1y ago
Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320). If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigious military contract in the world that one can hope to get for their pistol. I wouldn't purchase any new Sigs after seeing how they've doubled-down on denial here. This is a life-taking/life-saving tool. It cannot be wrong; it cannot fail.
- 303uru 1y ago
  P365 is great if it fits in your hand. But agree, denial has me pretty put off.
  - Alupis 1y ago
    P365XL, no? Although, a short grip is a feature for conceal carry, in my opinion. Even with nicer "winged" appendix holsters, the grip can still print fairly easily on fuller-sized handguns.
  - sneak 1y ago
    The P365 has a design flaw where there is a pinch point on your palm when changing magazines. The first time my partner used it, she gave herself a blood blister on the palm of her hand. Additionally, the trigger is super mushy, with like 4 different sticky break points, where only the last one is actually for firing. I hated everything about it; we bought it only because it fit her hand. It was my first and last Sig. I have no idea why people buy pistols that aren’t Glocks.
    - jajko 1y ago
      What about P226? I heard only raving reviews on that one.
    - lightedman 1y ago
      "I have no idea why people buy pistols that aren’t Glocks." Jam halfway through a magazine? I'll stick with my Ruger from the 80s, thanks.
RickJWagner 1y ago
Lordy, who knew Hacker News had so many gun enthusiasts? I learned something new today.
- gottorf 1y ago
  HN has always had a libertarian bent, and it's not a big leap from that to gun ownership.
- alexchantavy 1y ago
  If there is a topic, you will find someone on HN to go deep on it. I love it
- AngryData 1y ago
  I mean the people here are largely from the US. And while some politicians and the media likes to pretend gun ownership is something only deeply conservative rednecks hold to, it simply isn't true, gun ownership and the support of gun owner rights in the US crosses all political and social boundaries. And it makes perfect sense when you realize how few people in the US trust the cops, military, courts, or politicians to protect them from others, and they have seen the very real threats of many groups and organizations that have repeatedly put forth ideals of wanting to kill others for petty ideological bullshit. On top of that you have to add in the important historical contexts weapons are involved in which garners peoples interest. And then there is the engineering ingenuity and craft involved in all the mechanics of how they operate and the {hopefully) fine machining and techniques used in creating them, the same way someone might marvel at the internals of different clocks or watches.
anonu 1y ago
I have a P320 and I am frankly terrified of the uncommanded discharge. Maybe having a safety would have mitigated the issue.
ummonk 1y ago
There is a lot of accidental discharge happening when people holster their pistol improperly and the trigger snags on something or they inadvertently press the trigger while grabbing it. However, I’ve seen at least one footage of a Sig 320 discharging while properly holstered (Sig tried to claim the retention hood wasn’t properly closed but it clearly was): https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lokar 1y ago
  Not knowing anything about guns I would assume you would engage the safety when putting the weapon in the holster. Is that not true?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - akerl_ 1y ago
    ~"It's complicated". There's really 2 different things here: Firstly, there's "How many things are between my finger on the trigger and shooting the gun". The furthest you get is not having a round in the chamber, where you have to pull back and release the slide to chamber a round. In that state, basically nothing you do to the trigger or any other part of the gun will result in a discharge. You could use the gun to hammer a nail into a board and it would be really inefficient but also not result in you shooting anybody. From there, you can have a round in the chamber but the safety on. Some guns have no safety. Some guns have more than one (a common combination is a toggle safety and then a bar built into the trigger that must be pulled first before the trigger can be pulled). The safety's job is to stop the gun from slamming the firing pin into the back of the round. All of this matters a lot for the kind of issues that were common with Serpa holsters, where users tended to slide their finger along near the trigger and were accidentally pulling it as part of their draw from the holster. Secondly, there's "is there anything stopping the firing pin from just smacking the round and firing it w/o the trigger or anything else being involved". In some guns, the firing pin is physically blocked from striking the round until the trigger is pulled back: there's a piece of metal or other impediment that's in the way, and when you pull the trigger it slides out of the way and then the mechanism pushes the firing pin forward. But in other guns, that isn't the case: the firing pin is held away from the round by some style of tension, but isn't physically blocked. On those guns, if you have a round in the chamber and you whack the gun in the wrong direction, the firing pin can push into the round and fire it. Sig's prior claims were that this was not possible on the P320. Evidence suggests that they are incorrect.
mrbonner 1y ago
The Glock, on the other hand, doesn't have a safety lever. Instead, it uses a double trigger pull mechanism to help prevent accidental firing. I've often wondered if a safety lever gives people a false sense of security. With the Glock, you must always assume the gun is ready to fire, which requires careful handling. I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?
- zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
  Pretty sure my dad had a Beretta, but that was in the 90s, so that may have changed
  - favorited 1y ago
    The Sig P320 (M17/M18) is the successor to the Beretta 92 (M9) as the US military's standard service pistol. Glocks are the most common among law enforcement in the US these days. The FBI's service pistol is a Glock 19M. Glock claims that the Glock 22 is, "by far the most popular police service pistol in the United States," which surprises me because the 17 and 19 are the service handguns at most big cities, AFAIK.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- deelowe 1y ago
  No. I don't think glock has ever gotten a US military contract.
  - Foxhuls 1y ago
    They have a contract with the army and are used heavily in the special forces community.
calmbonsai 1y ago
Ian McCollum thinks it's likely down to tolerance stacking on one or more of the safeties as part of several production runs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY
burnt-resistor 1y ago
Tangentially related: here's a gunsmith going into detail on improper modifications leading to double firing and failed drop tests: https://youtu.be/ppuyoeoTLMA https://youtu.be/ppuyoeoTLMA Also: Glock-specific safety checks: https://youtu.be/LFk_nq0HcEc https://youtu.be/LFk_nq0HcEc
ml-anon 1y ago
How is this in anyway tech/HN related?
- dkga 1y ago
  In the most abstract terms, this unfortunate death occurred because a gadget/device completely failed its security checks. Apparently judging by the information at the end of the text, Sig Sauer is the “Boeing” of firearms.
- Thorrez 1y ago
  A lot of the discussion in the comments here is about gun mechanisms. This could be considered gun tech. Note that HN doesn't require posts to be tech related, although this post might be a little borderline regarding the "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." guideline. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
roughly 1y ago
> That campaign included a successful effort this year to secure a change in New Hampshire law that will protect Sig Sauer from future liability lawsuits regarding allegations the gun should come equipped with certain safety features. If you want to know how we arrived at this particular moment in American history and society, this is a fine place to start.
- padjo 1y ago
  Yeah it’s just an incredibly crisp example of how corporations are valued above people.
  - blitzar 1y ago
    I am sure those corporations highly valued the people they were giving a large sum of money to in a brown envelope to make that happen.
nabla9 1y ago
This is a good example of social hysteria. 1. The P320 had a real issue with firing when dropped. Although it had passed all drop tests, when dropped at a 25-degree angle onto the rear sight, the weight of the trigger was enough to fire the gun. There is a voluntary fix available for older weapons, but no recall has seen necessary. Now, we have many videos and widespread discussion about this. Millions of people and police officers own P320s, and sometimes they make errors. It's natural to blame the gun when freak accidents occur, especially when they result in injury. The narrative of a big, greedy company trying to hide issues is always present and can be applied to almost anything. 2. Cases where the gun fired without the trigger being touched are very questionable. From lawsuits, examples include: carrying a round in the chamber and wrapping the P320 in cloth to move it; or carrying a round in the chamber and placing the P320 into a handbag. The case where a police officer's P320 fired while holstered (and there's a video of it) was studied by the FBI. The report notes that the officer had keys in his hand when he moved it near the holster. In most such cases, it's very easy to see how something could have touched the trigger. If the P320 had a genuine systemic issue, it would show up in statistics as an above-average number of accidents. 3. Now a separate P320 "out-of-battery fire" issue that's gaining traction online. This is clearly a typical hand-loading or questionable ammunition source issue, which is relatively common with all firearm models. Summary: Starting with real issue, social media attention attached to some thing can have it's own life. making a typical number of incidents, with a variety of causes, look like a huge trend.
- lazide 1y ago
  No, this is a very real manufacturing and design issue that SIG insists doesn’t exist, despite numerous well documented cases. See [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7RXrneHlzfjrewMFIeeyc-nel3bsDnM/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7RXrneHlzfjrewMFIeeyc-nel3...] for one exceptionally well documented case. In this situation, the FBI was able to duplicate the ‘spontaneous firing of a chambered round’ by pressing down slightly on the slide with nothing else going on. SIG needs to get their head out of their ass, or they are going to burn the whole company to the ground.
  - nabla9 1y ago
tracker1 1y ago
One of my best friends runs a firearms instruction program and literally took a grinder to cut his in half... Mine is still in one piece, but I'm unlikely to ever fire it again. Kind of a shame that Sig Sauer chooses to deny/lie over simply addressing the problem head on. No respect and definitely lost a customer in me. I'll probably switch to a Glock 19 at this point.
dang 1y ago
Found one thread from a year ago. Others? Sig Sauer guns hanging on soldiers' hips may be firing without trigger pull - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41087518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41087518 - July 2024 (37 comments) Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 - April 2023 (31 comments)
- NaOH 1y ago
  Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 - April 2023 (31 comments)
  - dang 1y ago
    Added above. Thanks!
willyd1 1y ago
[dead]

231 points by duxup 1y ago

This seems to suggest carrying with a chambered round. Is this prudent without an external threat? They can drop the thing, or some kind of impact can yield a “design problem”. Can’t they just chamber when there’s a need?

colingauvin 1y ago
This is table stakes for a carry pistol. The goal is to deliver a pistol that can be safely carried while chambered. You do not want to have to chamber if you need the gun.
nowandlater 1y ago
Firearms should never discharge unless the trigger has been pulled. It's an absolute bare minimum requirement. But you should always assume it will go off in the direction it's being pointed, even if you haven't pulled the trigger.
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  First law of gun safety: never point a gun at anything you wouldn't want to destroy.
hollywood_court 1y ago
That may be personal preference, but IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. I’m a huge Sig collector and I’ve been a fan of theirs since the 90s. I’ve carried a Sig daily for 20+ years. I only carried a P320 for a few months until I finally downsized to the P365. But I’ve got to admit that their PR and response to these incidents is not a good look. But I am a bit confused as to what is causing these unintentional discharges. I know they had a problem that was addressed years ago so I’m not sure if the current problem guns are ones that were never sent back for modification or if there is some kind of unrelated problem. Regardless, I’ll still carry a Sig until CZ makes something comparable to a P365. But it’s unlikely that I’ll ever buy a new Sig again.
- tshaddox 1y ago
  > IMHO there’s no reason to conceal carry if you’re going to do it without a round chambered. Why is that your opinion? Surely there's a wide variety of plausible scenarios where carrying a concealed weapon without a round chambered is much better than not carrying a concealed weapon.
  - jeffbee 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - rhcom2 1y ago
      There is definitely thinking among some who CC they're going to be John Wick but "good guy with a gun" is definitely not "totally imaginary". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter#/media/File:2000-_Outcomes_of_active_shooter_attacks.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_shooter#/media/File:200...
      - Filmatic 1y ago
        2.8% is even worse than I’d have guessed. 2.8% of an already rare event is technically non-imaginary, but also definitely rounds down to imaginary. [edit] on top of that, is it even a one-digit percentage of that 2.8% of a rare event in which having a round chambered made any difference? Yet there are people confidently posting as if it’d be absurd to carry without a round chambered. That’s plainly nuts.
        rascul 1y ago
        That's only active shooter events. There are other cases where armed civilians have stopped a crime. I don't have such data readily available, though.
        JKCalhoun 1y ago
        Only an anecdote here: a guy I know claimed to have "defensively" used his gun. When I pressed him, it turned out that he drew his gun on a guy "that looked like a dirtbag" when he was staying at a motel. From his point of view his life would have been threatened (he might not be alive today!) had he not presented his firearm.
ndrwdvvs 1y ago
a reasonably experienced competitive shooter can draw from a holster and put two shots on target in ~1.25-1.5sec. racking a round while drawing would probably put it around 2-2.5sec. that 0.5-1sec advantage could make a pretty big difference.
- evantbyrne 1y ago
  Gun crimes tend to be ambushes rather than something that even remotely resembles a duel.
  - 0x457 1y ago
    So every second counts?
    - evantbyrne 1y ago
      Can't pull when someone randomly has the drop on you chambered or not. Have to retreat/conceal first anyways. Far more likely to have a tragic accident than ever saving someone. Not long ago someone accidentally shot the neighbor's house right into the bathroom. Accidents happen way more frequently than random crime and should be the top concern for gun owners.
      - gosub100 1y ago
        Then why aren't the police constantly having accidents blowing holes in everything?
        evantbyrne 1y ago
        The police committing accidental/negligent discharges of their service weapons has been a nearly constant source of social unrest in the US... Great example of how people carrying loaded firearms is a public safety hazard.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
nosignono 1y ago
Yes, if you are conceal carrying, having a round chambered is typical. You don't want to have to draw and rack the slide in an emergency. Most modern pistols have multiple internal safeties to prevent firing without a trigger pull. There's something extremely wrong with the Sig 320.
jandrewrogers 1y ago
It makes no difference if there is a round in the chamber unless there is a fundamental design flaw. The P320 is apparently a rare case of this. This is extremely mature technology. People have been churning out defect-free designs for many decades. It is surprising that a company with the engineering experience and pedigree of SIG Sauer would design something with this issue. It would be like if Airbus designed a plane where the wing sometimes fell off mid-flight.
- giantg2 1y ago
  "The P320 is apparently a rare case of this." Not that rare. Gen 1 and 2 Glocks had slam fires (that's right, "Safe Action" Glocks... the irony). The XDS had doubles or slam fires. I'm sure there were others, and now the P320.
  - deelowe 1y ago
    Then gen2 glock is old enough to be considered one the original striker fired pistols. The parent is right. There's no reason to be making these kinds of mistakes these days. They industry has been churning out millions of safe striker fire personal carry firearms for decades now.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      There shouldn't be a reason for these mistakes, but they keep happening. Do a little digging and you'll see. I've already mentioned the XDS and we all know the P320. The FNS had a similar issue too. I'm sure there are more if we dig. So while there are millions of safe striker fired guns, it appears there are also millions of unsafe ones in the past decade or so.
Modified3019 1y ago
It’s a personal taste kind of thing, where there’s decent arguments either way. Proponents of having a loaded chamber value having the firearm immediately ready, because a situation where they actually need to draw on someone/something may not have time or space to use both hands to rack their pistol before someone/something is on them. Those who want an empty chamber consider the increased safety vs potential malfunctions/accidents to outweigh the risks of being less able to respond to a small subset of threats.
aerostable_slug 1y ago
Tactical encounters often progress quickly enough that there's insufficient time to chamber a cartridge before the weapon may need to be fired. The context of who is carrying these pistols in this command may also help: they're issued to the Security Forces guarding strategic nuclear weapons (and their delivery systems). It is the highest priority security mission in the military.
- varjag 1y ago
  One would rather hope those guarding the nukes have rifles…
  - dardeaup 1y ago
    It's not an either/or situation. I'm sure they would have BOTH pistols and rifles.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - deelowe 1y ago
    A rifle and a pistol serve different purposes. This would likely have both.
chiph 1y ago
It depends on your job in the USAF. I was a security augmentee[0] and we did not chamber a round. But the Airman who died likely protected missile silos, which are "no-lone zones" and they would be carrying with a round in the chamber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-person_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-person_rule The P320 is known to have accidental discharges for civilian owners (honestly - don't buy one). But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems. We will need to wait on the results of the investigation to find out. [0] An extra duty typically assigned to junior enlisted - we only armed up during exercises. Which brings back a story - we were waiting on the trucks to take us to our posts, and the room was full of Airmen armed with M16s and M60 machine guns. And we were all watching Justin Wilson cooking up some delicious Cajun food on the TV.
- giantg2 1y ago
  "But Sig Sauer has stated that the M18 military version did not have those problems." More lies and misdirection on Sig's part. The only mechanical difference is really the manual safety (which works on the trigger and not on the striker), and if we're being generous the second would be the spanner screw. They should have the upgraded FCU, but in the civilian world there are still reports of the issue even after the upgrade.
homefree 1y ago
In most cases with CCW if you were to actually need to use the weapon you would not have time to chamber a round. Even if you did have time (maybe you should run away?), doing so would draw attention to yourself (and might be fatal). The standard advice is to have one chambered or work to getting yourself comfortable with that over time.
smithkl42 1y ago
This is not military, but it's widely advocated in the concealed carry community that you should carry with one in the chamber. The argument is that with modern pistol designs and the right precautions, it's generally safe; and that many scenarios where you might need to defend yourself need all the possible speed you can get. Having to stroke your firearm to load it can easily add 2 seconds to your draw. That said, given all the stories I've read, I can't imagine carrying a P320 with one in the chamber.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
paulddraper 1y ago
Answer: maybe. Depends how responsive you want to be.
esseph 1y ago
Always carry chambered. 1. When you need it you won't remember to chamber due to stress 2. stress causes fine motor skill distortion 3. Only draw when you are prepared to fire (or you end up dealing with Brandishing laws)
- 8note 1y ago
  a better alternative would be to not carry. if the stress is gonna mess with your fine motor control, youre probably gonna accidentally shoot a bystander anyways, because you happened to have been laid off earlier in the day. the stree messes with your memory, so the barista looks like a threat. the stress messes with your fine motor skill, so you hit the guy waiting for his coffee. and of course, you gotta shoot the rest so theres no witnesses to have you charged for not actually doing self defence
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - kbelder 1y ago
    Yeah, happens all the time.
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    don't forget shooting yourself at the end so you don't have to feel bad about shooting others!
the__alchemist 1y ago
There are policies that vary by branch. The USAF, for example, carries the Beretta M9 pistol (Not sure when they switched to Sig? Must be recent) with the safety off, and in double-action mode. So, round chambered, and a single (hard) trigger pull (Or a manual cock + light pull) will fire the round. Dropping it should not fire it. I had to carry one in my vest in case of emergencies, and I never felt comfortable being one trigger pull from bang, while it's pointed at my waist for extended periods. Also, the double-action pull sucks, and it's harder to aim straight when putting so much muscle into the pull IMO. Had to have the finger on it in a certain way to get leverage. (The single-action pull after doesn't have this issue) So, I would accept the weapon from the equipment guys, insert the mag, send the slide forward, put it on fire since that's what you're supposed to do... then put it back on safe.
bugsMarathon88 1y ago
Can't you just put a seatbelt on right before a collision? A gun carried without one in the chamber is just a totem for emotional coddling, nothing more.

oldpersonintx2 1y ago

[dead]

nabla9 1y ago

Since all services have adopted it, idiot proofing should be the main feature of the gun because it will be carried with idiots all the time and casualties accumulate.

java-man 1y ago
Apparently not, when the profits are at stake.
nosignono 1y ago
This wasn't a case of an idiot, except perhaps placing the muzzle in a direction that a human would be present. The gun was in the holster, and the entire holster was removed from the belt and placed on a desk. There's nothing in that course of action that would allow a finger or anything to get into the trigger well. The gun should absolutely not have gone off.
- dcrazy 1y ago
  I didn’t read nabla’s comment as accusing the deceased of being an idiot. Rather, it was a statement that the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) and therefore any standard issue weapon should be designed appropriately. A gun that can go off on its own even when handled properly is the opposite of idiot-proof.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > the military is full of idiots (aka teenage boys) The Air Force is not. (The average Air Force servicemember is older, better educated, better paid and subject to more demands than the average servicemember in the other branches.)
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - cityzen 1y ago
      [flagged]

colingauvin 1y ago

I have a 320C that I purchased in 2018 and have shot less than 100 rounds out of. I tried to sell it recently and was offered by two gun stores, less than $200. MSRP was around $500. Very annoyed with Sig over this. Their statements have been no help either, talk about Streisand effect.

giantg2 1y ago
That's a normal price drop for most modern plastic guns when trying to sell them to a store. They will offer $200 and sell it for $350 next to the brand new ones at $475.
pensatoio 1y ago
Honestly, I’d take the $200 and run.
- prawn 1y ago
  Maybe give them the gun, take the $200 and then run.
  - blitzar 1y ago
    Better to be pointing it away from you when it goes off than having it pointed at you.
gosub100 1y ago
They are in a peculiar logical pickle: admit the gun is defective and lose all their current lawsuits plus many more that will dogpile on. Plus take a devastating hit to future sales. Or deny it, saving face and relying on FUD that the discharges (several were caught on video ) were random or somehow the fault of the owners. Sig were even using some anti-anti-gun arguments (the same retorts that 2A people use against no-gun advocates) against their own customers! Saying they weren't being responsible or something along that line. It's a terrible situation for everyone involved.

nosignono 1y ago

Everyone I know has been saying, for years, to not carry Sig 320s or their variants. Those things are dangerous. It's tragic it took the death of someone from what (at this point) was an entirely preventable outcome.

andrewflnr 1y ago
They didn't have good evidence until recently, though. Or at least that's my understanding.
- nosignono 1y ago
  The FBI & DEA definitely did an investigation and came to the conclusion that, at a minimum, not all the safeties on the firearm work as designed. https://www.outdoorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/MSP-M18-Pistol-Evaluation_FINAL_Redacted_Outdoor_Life.pdf https://www.outdoorlife.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/MSP-M...
  - andrewflnr 1y ago
    Dated 2024. P320 controversy is obviously a lot older than that.

TheAmazingRace 1y ago

It's crazy how the P320 has such a bad reputation, while the P365, a 9mm micro-pistol by Sig Sauer, is a phenomenal piece of kit by comparison. I purchased mine in 2018 and it's seen thousands of rounds put through it with zero issues encountered.

hollywood_court 1y ago
Agreed. It seems that Sig really dropped the ball with the P320. My top 3 most used hand guns are the CZ P-10 F, the Sig P365, and the Sig P322. I honestly never thought I'd ever buy a modern handgun unless it was made by Sig. Until I tried the CZ. The P-10 F is my favorite full sized striker fired pistol. And that's coming from a guy that owns 30+ Sig pistols.
- unethical_ban 1y ago
  Yeah, just from a reputational standpoint I'm not sure I ever want to buy a Sig unless it's used. Too many other good brands to financially support. I've been eyeing a Canik or Walther, I want a premium trigger. The CZs are reliable weapons, but their trigger feels "gritty" to me. My Sig SP2022 is my favorite trigger of the guns I own.
  - 83 1y ago
    Fwiw, I love my PPQ Q5 Match.
  - hollywood_court 1y ago
    I had the opposite experience with the P-10 F. Granted it's the only CZ pistol I own. But it's also the only modern pistol I own that was ready to go right out of the box without any kind of needed improvements or modifications.
giantg2 1y ago
Why would it be crazy when they're completely separate systems?

mycodendral 1y ago

I don't think this issue has been reported on the P365/x-macro platform, for those discourage by this unfortunate situation. Different striker system.

spacephysics 1y ago
Yeah, i heard the P320 was originally a non-striker system that they modified to become a striker system to try and save research/development costs from creating a striker system from the ground up, which led to these wildly low tolerances in the FCU and ultimately a poorly designed firearm. I’ve heard of no issues from the P365 models. A knowledgeable firearm instructor I talked to mentioned the P320 and P365 are entirely different designs internally, and the P365 holds up to Sigs (previously) positive reputation
- Ostrogoth 1y ago
  The P365 does have essentially one point of failure on the striker assembly (see here https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSauer/comments/c5ddz5/can_someone_tell_me_about_internal_safetys_on_the/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SigSauer/comments/c5ddz5/can_someon...), and lacks a trigger blade safety.

sparrish 1y ago

Not only does Sig deny that a problem exists, it denies these incidents are happening. I'll never buy another Sig. They've burned bridges IMHO.

giantg2 1y ago
Add to that they have issued a voluntary trigger system, but not a recall. Meaning they won't admit the problem (required for a recall) but acknowledge a need for a change. Even with the upgraded FCU (which all the military guns should have) there are still reports of this issue occurring.
Analemma_ 1y ago
It’s arguably even worse than that: their entire PR strategy around this issue has been not just denial but “accuse everyone who says the gun has a problem of being Woke Communist Gay Liberals out to destroy America”. If you’re not up to speed with the P320’s issues, it might sound like I’m exaggerating: I promise I’m not, you can go look up their press statements. I’d call it shameful behavior, but it’s increasingly SOP from a class of people who have deliberately exorcised their ability to feel any shame.

IlikeKitties 1y ago

[flagged]

darkteflon 1y ago

Lots of informative comments in the thread about how carrying with a chambered round reduces the time and complexity to getting a shot off. I have limited knowledge of guns. I understood that they had a physical safety switch that had to be manipulated before the firearm could be used. Is that the case? If so, is the safety left off when people are carrying with a round chambered? Or have I misunderstood the purpose of the safety?

aerostable_slug 1y ago
The manual safety primarily stops the weapon from firing if the trigger is inadvertently pressed. In these cases, the trigger was allegedly not being pressed when the pistol discharged. Aside from the manual safety (which is optional on this specific model of pistol), there are a number of passive safeties that normally must be overcome for the weapon to fire. Something appears to be failing in such a manner that the pistols are firing without being commanded to -- the trigger is not being inadvertently pressed, so the manual safety does not seem to be involved.
giantg2 1y ago
Most newer handguns don't have manual safeties. The ones that do should be carried with it on. If you carry with it off, you won't have the muscle memory to switch it off in the event it is accidentally engaged. Basically, if it has the safety, you should be doing the motion for disengaging it regardless of it's starting position. Some people still choose to carry with it off. You get into all sorts of odd stuff the more you look into it, such as MARSOC rubber-banding their 1911 grip safeties. Some additional context here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44675889
- sgjohnson 1y ago
  FWIW I love the 1911-style grip safety. It’s a shame that more guns don’t have that.
  - topspin 1y ago
    The Springfield XD line has this. At least one S&W Shield model as well. Both are excellent pistols. Not that you're wrong: grip safeties aren't common. It's amazing to me this P320 problem exists. Making semi-autos safe, even without a grip safety, has been a solved problem for over 40 years. How anyone thought a fully cocked striker is a reasonable design, or that the US military would adopt such a thing, is a disturbing mystery. After Sig gets financially destroyed, and the US military has to correct this monumental mistake, we can at least look forward to no further designs like this. Who knows, maybe the US will do something intelligent and just issue Glock 17's, like they should have done at least 20 years ago.

giantg2 1y ago

Interesting... I would have thought that maybe the military variant with the manual safety would be immune to this issue. It seems the manual safety is only a trigger block and not an additional or positive stiker block. It seems this offers no additional safety beyond keeping the trigger guard clear. So much for the military's insistence on a manual safety. Was there really any data showing the units using Glocks had issues related to a lack of manual safety? Sig added one, but clearly it was an afterthought.

sklargh 1y ago

Beyond the tragedy here - the implication of this is that USAF security forces were carrying a widely understood to be mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of nuclear weapons. I am not saying a stray round can cause a criticality but shooting a nuclear weapon or its associated delivery and logistics systems is suboptimal.

dmurray 1y ago
It's just as bad to be carrying mechanically unsafe handguns in the presence of people. Not only that it looks callous if you say otherwise, but also the dollar cost the military put on a human life probably is higher than the typical cost of fixing a bullet hole in a nuclear weapon.
- sklargh 1y ago
  Yeah I agree, school resource officers carry P320s. Unacceptable. Analyzing from a mission assurance vs. emotive standpoint.

int_19h 1y ago

For more on this saga: https://www.twz.com/land/army-making-no-changes-to-its-sig-p320-derived-pistols-after-concerning-fbi-report https://www.twz.com/land/army-making-no-changes-to-its-sig-p...

more_corn 1y ago

The problems with the civilian version (the 320) are well documented (by law enforcement officers and the civilian community) and there appears to be a root cause and solution. (Not an expert but replaced trigger group?)

giantg2 1y ago
There are still reports of the issue occurring with the upgraded FCU. All the military ones should already have the upgraded FCU.
deelowe 1y ago
Two different issues. Drop safe and uncommanded discharge. The rework is only for the former. Sig still denies the latter has ever happened. I'm guessing that's about to change though as I know of 3 separate instances of uncommanded discharge that are well documented. Two with law enforcement (one on video posted earlier in this thread) and now this one). There's something very off with the FCG in this firearm.

zxcvbn4038 1y ago

I recently bought a SIG P320, and a week later, I started reading articles about it self discharging. =P It’s not like it happens all the time, but it seems that if the safety lever spring’s thickness is off by a thousandth of an inch, and the height of the post it fits on is also off by a thousandth of an inch, and you drop the pistol at just the right angle with enough force, the FBI reportedly got it to discharge once during testing—though officially, the results are inconclusive. Now, some law enforcement agencies are quietly replacing the P320 with the Glock 19. Personally, I’m keeping mine because it’s a great gun, and I love that 21-round magazine. However, I sent in my warranty card in case there’s a recall or something similar.

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GiorgioG 1y ago
Odds are, you'll never experience the self-discharging issue. Having said that, I don't find a mostly-reliable firearm acceptable from a safety perspective. If I don't pull the trigger, it cannot go bang, ever, for any reason.
- 303uru 1y ago
  I’m not taking odds on an edc item which takes a lot of banging around. Glock 18 is a simple choice.
  - hxtk 1y ago
    Off by one errors strike again, unless you EDC a machine pistol?
  - Alupis 1y ago
    I'm still very curious why the P320 beat out the venerable Glock 17 & 19 combo in the Army's recent selection. It would seem being able to change from duty to compact is more of a gimmick than practical. I'd wager most P320's will spend their service life in exactly one configuration. Sig does have a way of making every pistol feel like it was custom molded to your hand - but Glocks "Just Work".

Khaine 1y ago

Ian from Forgotten Weapons posted an interesting video on this a while back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QusWrho19zE And then a more recent follow up https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY

nickpinkston 1y ago
+1 Forgotten Weapons Ian ("Gun Jesus") is amazing, even just from a history / engineering perspective. I like it far better than more Michael Bay leaning content in that space, though there's good fun in a "Can this 50 cal go thru X ?" videos haha.
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ivraatiems 1y ago
    Do you have any evidence of this? The only thing I can find anywhere is a video of Ian timing a trans cosplayer who's doing a shooting match dressed as 2B from Neir: Automata (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhn18QhVzVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhn18QhVzVM), and an Instagram post of him with a gay 2nd-amendment advocate (https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nh1HIy_uS/?hl=en https://www.instagram.com/p/C2nh1HIy_uS/?hl=en).
    - TiredOfLife 1y ago
      https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/1e78bjz/karl_setting_the_record_straight_on_gun_jesus/ https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/1e78bjz/k... As Karl has deleted his twitter posts, there is a screenshot
      - ivraatiems 1y ago
        This isn't really sufficient, especially not from Karl. I agree with Karl's politics but not with branding someone a Nazi or anti-LGBT for staying out of them.

spl757 1y ago

There are really two separate claims being made about the P320 and unintentional discharges. One claim is that the gun can fire when dropped at a certain angle from a certain height. The voluntary "recall" lets you send it back to Sig and they replace some parts. I think the cause was because the trigger itself was bulky enough for a drop to give it enough inertia to fire, but I'm not 100% sure on that. The other claim is that the P320 can fire without being dropped, and while holstered, seemingly on it's own. That's all I really know about it. I own a P320, and I consider it an unsafe weapon at this point. I have not had the self-recall fix done and I'll never chamber a round in it again, so I guess it's a paperweight now.

ramses0 1y ago
https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI https://youtube.com/shorts/cOUfurKIjnI
pauljara 1y ago
I'm a recently licensed firearms owner from Canada and as part of the safety training part of the licensing process, I became aware of how unsafe the P320 seemed to be. It really feels like that model needs to be taken off-market, undergo significant redesign, and for Sig's marketing sake, probably re-emerge as some new model like the SP321 where the S stands for "safety" :-) What I'm not as familiar with is why hasn't Sig done this? It really feels like they've been doing ad-hoc patch design adjustments to a fundamentally unsafe design at this point. But I'm also not very knowledgeable about firearms yet.
- refulgentis 1y ago
  It's really sad because, straightforwardly, there's no penalty for just saying PEBKAC. Gun industry has tons of US legislative-granted legal immunity lest they ever accidentally become victim of a legal process that holds them accountable for, say, a mass shooting. They've been saying it was a political witchunt and avoiding dealing with it. This, hopefully, breaks the dam.
  - 1y ago

lenerdenator 1y ago

Ah, Sig. On the one hand, gold (P365). On the other hand, painful, agonizing failure (P320). If you make new-design firearms in any significant volume, you will have safety recalls. I don't know how many times I've gone to another gunmaker's website to see a banner announcing a safety recall. The important thing is that you stand behind your product 100%, and Sig's not doing that, even with arguably the most prestigious military contract in the world that one can hope to get for their pistol. I wouldn't purchase any new Sigs after seeing how they've doubled-down on denial here. This is a life-taking/life-saving tool. It cannot be wrong; it cannot fail.

303uru 1y ago
P365 is great if it fits in your hand. But agree, denial has me pretty put off.
- Alupis 1y ago
  P365XL, no? Although, a short grip is a feature for conceal carry, in my opinion. Even with nicer "winged" appendix holsters, the grip can still print fairly easily on fuller-sized handguns.
- sneak 1y ago
  The P365 has a design flaw where there is a pinch point on your palm when changing magazines. The first time my partner used it, she gave herself a blood blister on the palm of her hand. Additionally, the trigger is super mushy, with like 4 different sticky break points, where only the last one is actually for firing. I hated everything about it; we bought it only because it fit her hand. It was my first and last Sig. I have no idea why people buy pistols that aren’t Glocks.
  - jajko 1y ago
    What about P226? I heard only raving reviews on that one.
  - lightedman 1y ago
    "I have no idea why people buy pistols that aren’t Glocks." Jam halfway through a magazine? I'll stick with my Ruger from the 80s, thanks.

RickJWagner 1y ago

Lordy, who knew Hacker News had so many gun enthusiasts? I learned something new today.

gottorf 1y ago
HN has always had a libertarian bent, and it's not a big leap from that to gun ownership.
alexchantavy 1y ago
If there is a topic, you will find someone on HN to go deep on it. I love it
AngryData 1y ago
I mean the people here are largely from the US. And while some politicians and the media likes to pretend gun ownership is something only deeply conservative rednecks hold to, it simply isn't true, gun ownership and the support of gun owner rights in the US crosses all political and social boundaries. And it makes perfect sense when you realize how few people in the US trust the cops, military, courts, or politicians to protect them from others, and they have seen the very real threats of many groups and organizations that have repeatedly put forth ideals of wanting to kill others for petty ideological bullshit. On top of that you have to add in the important historical contexts weapons are involved in which garners peoples interest. And then there is the engineering ingenuity and craft involved in all the mechanics of how they operate and the {hopefully) fine machining and techniques used in creating them, the same way someone might marvel at the internals of different clocks or watches.

anonu 1y ago

I have a P320 and I am frankly terrified of the uncommanded discharge. Maybe having a safety would have mitigated the issue.

ummonk 1y ago

There is a lot of accidental discharge happening when people holster their pistol improperly and the trigger snags on something or they inadvertently press the trigger while grabbing it. However, I’ve seen at least one footage of a Sig 320 discharging while properly holstered (Sig tried to claim the retention hood wasn’t properly closed but it clearly was): https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0 https://youtube.com/watch?v=OSAI_HUZDI0

deleted 1y ago
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lokar 1y ago
Not knowing anything about guns I would assume you would engage the safety when putting the weapon in the holster. Is that not true?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- akerl_ 1y ago
  ~"It's complicated". There's really 2 different things here: Firstly, there's "How many things are between my finger on the trigger and shooting the gun". The furthest you get is not having a round in the chamber, where you have to pull back and release the slide to chamber a round. In that state, basically nothing you do to the trigger or any other part of the gun will result in a discharge. You could use the gun to hammer a nail into a board and it would be really inefficient but also not result in you shooting anybody. From there, you can have a round in the chamber but the safety on. Some guns have no safety. Some guns have more than one (a common combination is a toggle safety and then a bar built into the trigger that must be pulled first before the trigger can be pulled). The safety's job is to stop the gun from slamming the firing pin into the back of the round. All of this matters a lot for the kind of issues that were common with Serpa holsters, where users tended to slide their finger along near the trigger and were accidentally pulling it as part of their draw from the holster. Secondly, there's "is there anything stopping the firing pin from just smacking the round and firing it w/o the trigger or anything else being involved". In some guns, the firing pin is physically blocked from striking the round until the trigger is pulled back: there's a piece of metal or other impediment that's in the way, and when you pull the trigger it slides out of the way and then the mechanism pushes the firing pin forward. But in other guns, that isn't the case: the firing pin is held away from the round by some style of tension, but isn't physically blocked. On those guns, if you have a round in the chamber and you whack the gun in the wrong direction, the firing pin can push into the round and fire it. Sig's prior claims were that this was not possible on the P320. Evidence suggests that they are incorrect.

mrbonner 1y ago

The Glock, on the other hand, doesn't have a safety lever. Instead, it uses a double trigger pull mechanism to help prevent accidental firing. I've often wondered if a safety lever gives people a false sense of security. With the Glock, you must always assume the gun is ready to fire, which requires careful handling. I thought most law enforcement and military agencies use the Glock as standard issue. Isn't it?

zoklet-enjoyer 1y ago
Pretty sure my dad had a Beretta, but that was in the 90s, so that may have changed
- favorited 1y ago
  The Sig P320 (M17/M18) is the successor to the Beretta 92 (M9) as the US military's standard service pistol. Glocks are the most common among law enforcement in the US these days. The FBI's service pistol is a Glock 19M. Glock claims that the Glock 22 is, "by far the most popular police service pistol in the United States," which surprises me because the 17 and 19 are the service handguns at most big cities, AFAIK.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
deelowe 1y ago
No. I don't think glock has ever gotten a US military contract.
- Foxhuls 1y ago
  They have a contract with the army and are used heavily in the special forces community.

calmbonsai 1y ago

Ian McCollum thinks it's likely down to tolerance stacking on one or more of the safeties as part of several production runs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iWVs2uD1XY

burnt-resistor 1y ago

Tangentially related: here's a gunsmith going into detail on improper modifications leading to double firing and failed drop tests: https://youtu.be/ppuyoeoTLMA https://youtu.be/ppuyoeoTLMA Also: Glock-specific safety checks: https://youtu.be/LFk_nq0HcEc https://youtu.be/LFk_nq0HcEc

ml-anon 1y ago

How is this in anyway tech/HN related?

dkga 1y ago
In the most abstract terms, this unfortunate death occurred because a gadget/device completely failed its security checks. Apparently judging by the information at the end of the text, Sig Sauer is the “Boeing” of firearms.
Thorrez 1y ago
A lot of the discussion in the comments here is about gun mechanisms. This could be considered gun tech. Note that HN doesn't require posts to be tech related, although this post might be a little borderline regarding the "If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic." guideline. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

roughly 1y ago

> That campaign included a successful effort this year to secure a change in New Hampshire law that will protect Sig Sauer from future liability lawsuits regarding allegations the gun should come equipped with certain safety features. If you want to know how we arrived at this particular moment in American history and society, this is a fine place to start.

padjo 1y ago
Yeah it’s just an incredibly crisp example of how corporations are valued above people.
- blitzar 1y ago
  I am sure those corporations highly valued the people they were giving a large sum of money to in a brown envelope to make that happen.

nabla9 1y ago

This is a good example of social hysteria. 1. The P320 had a real issue with firing when dropped. Although it had passed all drop tests, when dropped at a 25-degree angle onto the rear sight, the weight of the trigger was enough to fire the gun. There is a voluntary fix available for older weapons, but no recall has seen necessary. Now, we have many videos and widespread discussion about this. Millions of people and police officers own P320s, and sometimes they make errors. It's natural to blame the gun when freak accidents occur, especially when they result in injury. The narrative of a big, greedy company trying to hide issues is always present and can be applied to almost anything. 2. Cases where the gun fired without the trigger being touched are very questionable. From lawsuits, examples include: carrying a round in the chamber and wrapping the P320 in cloth to move it; or carrying a round in the chamber and placing the P320 into a handbag. The case where a police officer's P320 fired while holstered (and there's a video of it) was studied by the FBI. The report notes that the officer had keys in his hand when he moved it near the holster. In most such cases, it's very easy to see how something could have touched the trigger. If the P320 had a genuine systemic issue, it would show up in statistics as an above-average number of accidents. 3. Now a separate P320 "out-of-battery fire" issue that's gaining traction online. This is clearly a typical hand-loading or questionable ammunition source issue, which is relatively common with all firearm models. Summary: Starting with real issue, social media attention attached to some thing can have it's own life. making a typical number of incidents, with a variety of causes, look like a huge trend.

lazide 1y ago
No, this is a very real manufacturing and design issue that SIG insists doesn’t exist, despite numerous well documented cases. See [https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7RXrneHlzfjrewMFIeeyc-nel3bsDnM/view https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L7RXrneHlzfjrewMFIeeyc-nel3...] for one exceptionally well documented case. In this situation, the FBI was able to duplicate the ‘spontaneous firing of a chambered round’ by pressing down slightly on the slide with nothing else going on. SIG needs to get their head out of their ass, or they are going to burn the whole company to the ground.
- nabla9 1y ago

tracker1 1y ago

One of my best friends runs a firearms instruction program and literally took a grinder to cut his in half... Mine is still in one piece, but I'm unlikely to ever fire it again. Kind of a shame that Sig Sauer chooses to deny/lie over simply addressing the problem head on. No respect and definitely lost a customer in me. I'll probably switch to a Glock 19 at this point.

dang 1y ago

Found one thread from a year ago. Others? Sig Sauer guns hanging on soldiers' hips may be firing without trigger pull - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41087518 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41087518 - July 2024 (37 comments) Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 - April 2023 (31 comments)

NaOH 1y ago
Sig Sauer P320, a popular handgun with police, is firing on its own - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35530330 - April 2023 (31 comments)
- dang 1y ago
  Added above. Thanks!

willyd1 1y ago

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