6 ms·

I work in manufacturing in the US. Incoming quality control, for Chinese vendors, is necessarily set up with zero-trust. This isn't a "trust but verify" sort of

by nomel 1y ago

I work in manufacturing in the US. Incoming quality control, for Chinese vendors, is necessarily set up with zero-trust. This isn't a "trust but verify" sort of thing, it's strictly "do not trust". Assume that, at every step of the chain, there will be a lie: change of process, material change, collected data, and that the product being given to you is even yours (delivering a knockoff at the final step, and reselling yours on the gray market). This is all common knowledge, proven by example after example that it's necessary to have zero trust. It's truly an adversarial system. All the extra engineering effort for IQC is still cheaper. And, there's rarely an alternative to the amazing manufacturing ecosystem that is China. After tracking down several of these types of issues, it appears that the Chabuduo mindset [1] is a very real thing. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465780

yegle 1y ago
This seems to be startlingly contrast to all the talks about "US manufacturers are absolutely doomed w/o Chinese vendors' great products and quality control" when Trump increased the tariffs. I can only find https://youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY https://youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY but earlier this year it was all over YouTube.
- XorNot 1y ago
  Did you miss the "it's still cheaper then building in the US" part? US manufacturers aren't doomed: they already don't exist, and the infrastructure needed to support them also does not exist.
  - subscribed 1y ago
    Smarter Every Day had a very interesting video about trying to make a reasonably simple barbecue tool entirely in the US. Close to impossible without a serious time investment and dedication.
- nomel 1y ago
  > This seems to be startlingly contrast Only to someone not involved with Chinese manufacturing. It's not too hard to find good manufacturers that you can trust. If you do, they will be operating with this same mindset, completely distrusting everyone else. Great! You're done, right? Well sure, until management changes (this happened to us once).
- Spooky23 1y ago
  Suppliers are always low/no trust unless you’re a sucker. The only difference is that is more difficult to hold Chinese suppliers accountable. Americans will happily cheat you as well.
  - FpUser 1y ago
    >"Americans will happily cheat you as well." I did not have too much experience with US manufacturers. I however can talk about Canada and Brasil. My experience with Brasil was stellar. Canada - you better fucking watch. As for China - I did order directly high power DC/DC converters. Those were available in the US and China. China came 10 times cheaper ($25 vs $250 apiece). The devices where we have installed those still work like a charm more than a decade after.
    - djmips 1y ago
      That sounds like very specific anecdata for Canada vs Brazil.
      - FpUser 1y ago
        It is. I am pretty sure examples of this and that exist in either country. I am just telling my own very narrow impression.
    - theLegionWithin 1y ago
      Chinese manufacturing 10+ years ago is completely different to Chinese manufacturing in 2025. the other comment about "zero trust" is significantly more apt
      - m-s-y 1y ago
        It’s always different 10 years ago, though, isn’t? Everything is. Rose colored glasses and all. I remember these exact same “Chinese quality” threads 10 years ago and they read pretty much the same as this one, complete with the “well 10 years ago I got great stuff” and “yeah 10 years ago was different”. Cycles, man. Cycles.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  I didn't hear a single person talking about wanting or needing China's great quality control. Are you sure there's a conflict here? I think you oversimplified when you were listening to what people were saying.
ajsnigrutin 1y ago
Yep, there is an interesting book "Poorly made in china" talking about the same thing... not powerbanks but same modus operandi. For example (hope I didn't mess up the details, it's been some time since I read it), a cosmetics manufacturer vendor replaced shampoo bottles with ones made with less (thinner) plastics multiple times, untill they started being destroyed in shipping... without notifying the company that ordered the shampoo... and then wanted more money for the "better" shampoo bottles. Also some very questionable practices: ----- The hair gel that we produced at the factory was green. One day, I noticed that the worker who filled the gel bottles had a skin condition. His hands were covered with the slick formula, and beneath the green, shimmery layer, I could see that the skin on his hands was peeling. Small, raw patches of flesh were exposed, and you didn’t have to be a dermatologist to see that his skin was infected. “We should probably do something about this one,” I said to Sister, trying to sound calm, while in my head alarm bells were ringing. Sister did not see the point. “Why?” she asked. “It might be a health issue?” “But the worker has done nothing wrong. It’s just an allergic reaction.” Trying to press the matter, I suggested that the worker might contaminate the product. Sister twisted around the argument. “How can he harm the product when it was the product that caused him the harm?”
bazingakiller 1y ago
[dead]
cm2187 1y ago
reminds me of this old but crazy if true comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138699
maxglute 1y ago
>Chabuduo mindset [1] is a very real thing IMO high tech cost optimization is like the opposite of chabuduo - it's not half-assing, but over value engineer under pressure. The PRC's "amazing" manufacturing system fosters adversarial competition down the supply chain because there are so many competitors, packed with technical talent incentivized to value-engineer the shit out of everything to squeeze out fractions of a RMB more per unit. Some engineering team probably poured thousands of man-hours and retooled $$$ manufacturing lines just to gain a tiny margin edge. Sometimes that backfires. But the pressure isn't about laziness - it's involutionary effort. The result is still a zero-trust environment, since when manufacturing base is so dense, everyone incentivized to cut corners or optimize/tweak silently, they usually do, forcing everyone upstream to stay hyper vigilant. So we end up in default equilibrium where it's cheaper/more optimal to squeeze downstream and inspect.
- themaninthedark 1y ago
  Value engineering is great and all but that doesn't sound like it is the only factor at play. > and that the product being given to you is even yours (delivering a knockoff at the final step, and reselling yours on the gray market).
  - taneq 1y ago
    I mean, “keep the nice thing you built and send a dodgy knock off” sure does raise your quarterly gross margin…
  - maxglute 1y ago
    Many factors, including shady, I'm just noting it's not laziness / chabuduo culture driving behavior in these scenarios.
- RicoElectrico 1y ago
  If you ever watched BigClive, the Chinese often make mistakes that can't be explained by cost optimization.
  - 1y ago
phil21 1y ago
Yep. Anything I get from China, even from a vendor I have done lots of business with in the past gets at minimum random samples inspected and tested when appropriate. Every single shipment, zero exceptions before use. So many things are caught. At best there is a lack of QA on the Chinese side, but it's definitely worse than that. They have no qualms sending you known-bad items, and just see it as "maybe the customer won't notice" and worth a try. It's definitely a giant pain in the ass, and adds a ton of expense and friction to the process. Lots of stuff you simply cannot source from any other country though - even if you do, the supply chain usually traces back to China anyways so all you're doing is adding a middleman layer to the problem. It's extremely important to set very explicit and strict quality parameters and specifications prior to any deal you do with a vendor. Even then you will miss things that will later be argued about. The more you can specify the better, otherwise it will be seen as negotiable/changeable. A lot of folks used to living in a high trust society get really taking advantage by this. Any vendor sourcing from China and not implementing an extreme level of QA to the process is being negligent, and I assume that's quite a lot if not the vast majority.
- bboygravity 1y ago
  I don't get how it's possible that nobody (other than Tesla) can manufacture batteries in the West? It a glance this feels insane. Batteries are in everything and such a basic need. How is it possible that buying through known scammers with tons of QA is still cheaper than manufacturing in the West? Obviously for Tesla it isn't cheaper to buy from China, so why is it thought to be cheaper for the rest of the West? Is it purely scale?
  - stephen_g 1y ago
    But Tesla don't make battery cells - Panasonic, LG and CATL make those (although co-located in Telsa's factories).
    - _ea1k 1y ago
      That isn't true for Tesla's 4680 that was briefly in the AWD Model Y and is currently in the Cybertruck. They are well behind the leaders in range and charging, but the company claims that they are competitive with cells from their suppliers on cost. Charging performance is on par with cars like the F-150 Lightning, which also isn't very good. They are also starting to build their own lfp batteries at a new factory in Nevada, though it sounds like those will be for stationary storage.
ForOldHack 1y ago
A strict "do not trust" because BOOM! Do not trust. Wow, and we are betting the bank on this type of garbage.
Chachichichi 1y ago
To me they're still doing a "trust but verify" system. Zero trust would mean not trusting them with their products at all and moving manufacturering elsewhere. It sounds like Anker skimped on verification and they're paying the price.
- nomel 1y ago
  > would mean not trusting them with their products at all and moving manufacturering elsewher That's not an option. There's usually nowhere else to go that makes financial sense. So you work in the cheap zero trust environment, and pay a bit more to verify everything. Anker skimped on verification because there was non-zero trust, and they're paying the price.
jacquesm 1y ago
And if you're really clever about this you do it dockside, in China.
spooky_deep 1y ago
Must cost a fortune for business to operate in such a low trust environment. Free market types take note: good regulation and “red tape” can actually help free enterprise
- sillystu04 1y ago
  Isn't this a matter of tort law rather than regulation?
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
thenthenthen 1y ago
Insert obligatory Poorly Made in China ref[0]. It is a great read and surprisingly (scarily so) still relevant. I do however take issue with the title (clickbaity), it is a tad repetitive and sometimes very insightful while one paragraph later it reads like the authors first 10mins in China. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China Edit: note, the tricks described in this book are not exclusive to china.
throw4d3235g 1y ago
> it appears that the Chabuduo mindset [1] is a very real thing. Sounds like “fail fast, fail often.”
yencabulator 1y ago
You probably also do not pay those Chinese vendors for that service. Cheap is cheap. The old argument for why IBM PCs (pre-Lenovo) cost more than a competitor was that they guaranteed the supply chain to exist when a repair was needed across your whole fleet of deployed machines. Similarly, Winnebago RVs have a specific quirky reputation that the manufacturer holds on to molds of all previous products essentially forever, so they can re-manufacture parts to things that haven't been in stock for years.
ksec 1y ago
>This is all common knowledge, proven by example after example that it's necessary to have zero trust. I still remember in 2012 - 2013, when I suggested exactly that, someone on HN replied and suggested I was racist.

by nomel 1y ago

yegle 1y ago

This seems to be startlingly contrast to all the talks about "US manufacturers are absolutely doomed w/o Chinese vendors' great products and quality control" when Trump increased the tariffs. I can only find https://youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY https://youtu.be/3ZTGwcHQfLY but earlier this year it was all over YouTube.

XorNot 1y ago
Did you miss the "it's still cheaper then building in the US" part? US manufacturers aren't doomed: they already don't exist, and the infrastructure needed to support them also does not exist.
- subscribed 1y ago
  Smarter Every Day had a very interesting video about trying to make a reasonably simple barbecue tool entirely in the US. Close to impossible without a serious time investment and dedication.
nomel 1y ago
> This seems to be startlingly contrast Only to someone not involved with Chinese manufacturing. It's not too hard to find good manufacturers that you can trust. If you do, they will be operating with this same mindset, completely distrusting everyone else. Great! You're done, right? Well sure, until management changes (this happened to us once).
Spooky23 1y ago
Suppliers are always low/no trust unless you’re a sucker. The only difference is that is more difficult to hold Chinese suppliers accountable. Americans will happily cheat you as well.
- FpUser 1y ago
  >"Americans will happily cheat you as well." I did not have too much experience with US manufacturers. I however can talk about Canada and Brasil. My experience with Brasil was stellar. Canada - you better fucking watch. As for China - I did order directly high power DC/DC converters. Those were available in the US and China. China came 10 times cheaper ($25 vs $250 apiece). The devices where we have installed those still work like a charm more than a decade after.
  - djmips 1y ago
    That sounds like very specific anecdata for Canada vs Brazil.
    - FpUser 1y ago
      It is. I am pretty sure examples of this and that exist in either country. I am just telling my own very narrow impression.
  - theLegionWithin 1y ago
    Chinese manufacturing 10+ years ago is completely different to Chinese manufacturing in 2025. the other comment about "zero trust" is significantly more apt
    - m-s-y 1y ago
      It’s always different 10 years ago, though, isn’t? Everything is. Rose colored glasses and all. I remember these exact same “Chinese quality” threads 10 years ago and they read pretty much the same as this one, complete with the “well 10 years ago I got great stuff” and “yeah 10 years ago was different”. Cycles, man. Cycles.
Dylan16807 1y ago
I didn't hear a single person talking about wanting or needing China's great quality control. Are you sure there's a conflict here? I think you oversimplified when you were listening to what people were saying.

ajsnigrutin 1y ago

Yep, there is an interesting book "Poorly made in china" talking about the same thing... not powerbanks but same modus operandi. For example (hope I didn't mess up the details, it's been some time since I read it), a cosmetics manufacturer vendor replaced shampoo bottles with ones made with less (thinner) plastics multiple times, untill they started being destroyed in shipping... without notifying the company that ordered the shampoo... and then wanted more money for the "better" shampoo bottles. Also some very questionable practices: ----- The hair gel that we produced at the factory was green. One day, I noticed that the worker who filled the gel bottles had a skin condition. His hands were covered with the slick formula, and beneath the green, shimmery layer, I could see that the skin on his hands was peeling. Small, raw patches of flesh were exposed, and you didn’t have to be a dermatologist to see that his skin was infected. “We should probably do something about this one,” I said to Sister, trying to sound calm, while in my head alarm bells were ringing. Sister did not see the point. “Why?” she asked. “It might be a health issue?” “But the worker has done nothing wrong. It’s just an allergic reaction.” Trying to press the matter, I suggested that the worker might contaminate the product. Sister twisted around the argument. “How can he harm the product when it was the product that caused him the harm?”

bazingakiller 1y ago

[dead]

cm2187 1y ago

reminds me of this old but crazy if true comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138699 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18138699

maxglute 1y ago

>Chabuduo mindset [1] is a very real thing IMO high tech cost optimization is like the opposite of chabuduo - it's not half-assing, but over value engineer under pressure. The PRC's "amazing" manufacturing system fosters adversarial competition down the supply chain because there are so many competitors, packed with technical talent incentivized to value-engineer the shit out of everything to squeeze out fractions of a RMB more per unit. Some engineering team probably poured thousands of man-hours and retooled $$$ manufacturing lines just to gain a tiny margin edge. Sometimes that backfires. But the pressure isn't about laziness - it's involutionary effort. The result is still a zero-trust environment, since when manufacturing base is so dense, everyone incentivized to cut corners or optimize/tweak silently, they usually do, forcing everyone upstream to stay hyper vigilant. So we end up in default equilibrium where it's cheaper/more optimal to squeeze downstream and inspect.

themaninthedark 1y ago
Value engineering is great and all but that doesn't sound like it is the only factor at play. > and that the product being given to you is even yours (delivering a knockoff at the final step, and reselling yours on the gray market).
- taneq 1y ago
  I mean, “keep the nice thing you built and send a dodgy knock off” sure does raise your quarterly gross margin…
- maxglute 1y ago
  Many factors, including shady, I'm just noting it's not laziness / chabuduo culture driving behavior in these scenarios.
RicoElectrico 1y ago
If you ever watched BigClive, the Chinese often make mistakes that can't be explained by cost optimization.
- 1y ago

phil21 1y ago

Yep. Anything I get from China, even from a vendor I have done lots of business with in the past gets at minimum random samples inspected and tested when appropriate. Every single shipment, zero exceptions before use. So many things are caught. At best there is a lack of QA on the Chinese side, but it's definitely worse than that. They have no qualms sending you known-bad items, and just see it as "maybe the customer won't notice" and worth a try. It's definitely a giant pain in the ass, and adds a ton of expense and friction to the process. Lots of stuff you simply cannot source from any other country though - even if you do, the supply chain usually traces back to China anyways so all you're doing is adding a middleman layer to the problem. It's extremely important to set very explicit and strict quality parameters and specifications prior to any deal you do with a vendor. Even then you will miss things that will later be argued about. The more you can specify the better, otherwise it will be seen as negotiable/changeable. A lot of folks used to living in a high trust society get really taking advantage by this. Any vendor sourcing from China and not implementing an extreme level of QA to the process is being negligent, and I assume that's quite a lot if not the vast majority.

bboygravity 1y ago
I don't get how it's possible that nobody (other than Tesla) can manufacture batteries in the West? It a glance this feels insane. Batteries are in everything and such a basic need. How is it possible that buying through known scammers with tons of QA is still cheaper than manufacturing in the West? Obviously for Tesla it isn't cheaper to buy from China, so why is it thought to be cheaper for the rest of the West? Is it purely scale?
- stephen_g 1y ago
  But Tesla don't make battery cells - Panasonic, LG and CATL make those (although co-located in Telsa's factories).
  - _ea1k 1y ago
    That isn't true for Tesla's 4680 that was briefly in the AWD Model Y and is currently in the Cybertruck. They are well behind the leaders in range and charging, but the company claims that they are competitive with cells from their suppliers on cost. Charging performance is on par with cars like the F-150 Lightning, which also isn't very good. They are also starting to build their own lfp batteries at a new factory in Nevada, though it sounds like those will be for stationary storage.

ForOldHack 1y ago

A strict "do not trust" because BOOM! Do not trust. Wow, and we are betting the bank on this type of garbage.

Chachichichi 1y ago

To me they're still doing a "trust but verify" system. Zero trust would mean not trusting them with their products at all and moving manufacturering elsewhere. It sounds like Anker skimped on verification and they're paying the price.

nomel 1y ago
> would mean not trusting them with their products at all and moving manufacturering elsewher That's not an option. There's usually nowhere else to go that makes financial sense. So you work in the cheap zero trust environment, and pay a bit more to verify everything. Anker skimped on verification because there was non-zero trust, and they're paying the price.

jacquesm 1y ago

And if you're really clever about this you do it dockside, in China.

spooky_deep 1y ago

Must cost a fortune for business to operate in such a low trust environment. Free market types take note: good regulation and “red tape” can actually help free enterprise

sillystu04 1y ago
Isn't this a matter of tort law rather than regulation?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

thenthenthen 1y ago

Insert obligatory Poorly Made in China ref[0]. It is a great read and surprisingly (scarily so) still relevant. I do however take issue with the title (clickbaity), it is a tad repetitive and sometimes very insightful while one paragraph later it reads like the authors first 10mins in China. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poorly_Made_in_China Edit: note, the tricks described in this book are not exclusive to china.

throw4d3235g 1y ago

> it appears that the Chabuduo mindset [1] is a very real thing. Sounds like “fail fast, fail often.”

yencabulator 1y ago

You probably also do not pay those Chinese vendors for that service. Cheap is cheap. The old argument for why IBM PCs (pre-Lenovo) cost more than a competitor was that they guaranteed the supply chain to exist when a repair was needed across your whole fleet of deployed machines. Similarly, Winnebago RVs have a specific quirky reputation that the manufacturer holds on to molds of all previous products essentially forever, so they can re-manufacture parts to things that haven't been in stock for years.

ksec 1y ago

>This is all common knowledge, proven by example after example that it's necessary to have zero trust. I still remember in 2012 - 2013, when I suggested exactly that, someone on HN replied and suggested I was racist.