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Synopsis and excerpt: [Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream" with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking. Hot
by WarOnPrivacy 1y ago
Synopsis and excerpt:
[Rest] markets itself as a way to "unlock a new revenue stream"
with the help of a "robust algorithm" for detecting smoking.
Hotels where these sensors are installed rack up complaints and negative reviews, after Rest sensors register false positives - thereby unlocking that revenue stream for the hotels.
The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong. And errors reliably favor the institution that manages (and profits from) them.
- spondylosaurus 1y agoI scoured their website to look for any clues about how it might (allegedly) work and got a fat lot of nothing. > Rest constantly monitors room air quality, using a proprietary algorithm to pinpoint any tobacco, marijuana, or nicotine presence. So a smoke detector with an "algorithm" attached. Uh huh. How does that algorithm work? > By analyzing various factors and patterns[...] Some cutting edge shit here! And as for accuracy, they don't even pretend to make promises about "99.99% success rates" or anything. This is the most detailed they get: > Q: Is it accurate? > A: Our sophisticated smoking detection algorithm has been tested for accuracy in real-world scenarios, backed by years of development, and tens of thousands of hours of rigorous testing and validation.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago> Our sophisticated smoking detection algorithm has been tested Okay, but what were the results? https://xkcd.com/1096/ https://xkcd.com/1096/
- thephotonsphere 1y agoSmokin'! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KONoeHwu2pg&t=50s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KONoeHwu2pg&t=50s
- kotaKat 1y agoIt's going to be similar bullshit to what Halo uses in the highschool vape sensors. A bunch of particulate sensors for like PM1, PM2.5, PM10, sniffing out VOCs, and then they consider any tripping of any of that to be a "smoke" sesh. Edit: Oh. Rest is just NoiseAware. They're just reselling NoiseAware sensors which are just - yes - a bunch of particulate sensors hooked up to an ESP32 hooked to a web dashboard.
- fnordpiglet 1y agoYeah the anecdotal evidence leads you to this as well - the hair drier usage leading to triggering the sensor. My PM/VoC sensors in my bedroom spike when my wife dries her hair while my CO/CO2 sensors do not.
- aaron695 1y ago[dead]
- mrb 1y agoGiven that this image: https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/653a9fbd1075088b6c8f8bd3/67c7121d68e04574ca5ef326_Step_02_003.png https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/653a9fbd1075088b6c8f8bd3/... shows PM2.5 and CO2(ppm) it may imply they monitor particles and CO2 levels. My guess is it also monitors humidity, and temperature. Humidity helps distinguish smoke from water vapor (eg. steaming shower). CO2 sensors are generally pretty accurate, but PM2.5 sensors are notoriously prone to false spikes usually caused by dust in or around the sensor: https://www.reddit.com/r/Awair/comments/10r1uyo/inaccurate_pm25/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Awair/comments/10r1uyo/inaccurate_p... or https://forum.airgradient.com/t/unusual-pm2-5-readings-on-new-indoor-sensor/2416 https://forum.airgradient.com/t/unusual-pm2-5-readings-on-ne... or https://community.purpleair.com/t/what-to-do-about-incorrect-readings/645 https://community.purpleair.com/t/what-to-do-about-incorrect... My guess is it's likely a sensor in a hotel room accumulates dust over time, leading to high PM2.5 measurements maybe when something (eg. suitcase) bumps against the case, shaking the accumulated dust and releasing it around the sensor.
- microtherion 1y agoThat's awesome for the hotel! The less they dust their rooms, the more "smoking fees" they can charge guests.
- boothby 1y agoNote that pm2.5 will also spike when you've used shampoo, perfume, deoderant, lotion, sunblock; if you use dryer sheets and you unpack your clothes, etc.
- billyjmc 1y agoThis is news to me, but I’m unsurprised. Why people use so much strongly scented products is absolutely baffling to me.
- paradox460 1y agoFarts will cause it to spike
- 1y ago
- Aeolun 1y agoThis is like those 10k bomb detectors that were just a box with wires dangling out aren’t they? I do not understand what possesses people to buy this stuff without proof.
- raverbashing 1y ago> A: Our sophisticated smoking detection algorithm has been tested for accuracy in real-world scenarios, backed by years of development, and tens of thousands of hours of rigorous testing and validation. I would be willing to bet a good amount of money they have a huge pile of nothing on this On the other comment they say they monitor PM2.5, CO2 and humidity. Congratulations, your hot water shower with hard water just triggered the sensor. $500 fee.
- consp 1y ago> The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong. And errors reliably favor the institution that manages (and profits from) them. Doesn't the US have false advertisement rules/scam prevention? Around here one person would have to fight this in court to tumble the whole thing down as there is no way Rest can prove it's claim is airtight (pun intended) due to simple statistics and physics (e.g. hair drying leaves burn particulates as well). I doubt it will even come this far as it's obviously a money making scheme over the customers back and acts in bad faith ("The sensor's don't make mistakes" is a claim to innocence where none is valid as almost everyone can smell). It's probably fine as an early detection agent but you'd have to actually check. Also the charges are disproportionate to the beach of contract, unless they steam clean the room every time they claim the money. Which they obviously don't according to the "dirty room" comments.
- gorbachev 1y agoHotel guests are not buying the sensors. The hotels would probably have a claim due to this, but since they're "unlocking new revenue streams", they are probably not going to bother.
- gamblor956 1y agoYou're not wrong. A single class action lawsuit would destroy Rest as a going concern, assuming there were enough false-positives generated to be an issue. (Rest would have to demonstrate how its technology works in court in order to have any hope of defeating such a lawsuit. And as the hotel guests don't have contracts with Rest, they aren't bound by any arbitration agreements.)
- high_byte 1y ago"unlocking revenue stream" is wild way to say theft
- xyst 1y ago[flagged]
- rzz3 1y agoNo, surely this product didn’t just come to market in the last 6 months. Every problem in the world isn’t caused by Trump, though many are. Blaming Trump for hotel smoke detectors delegitimizes the legitimate problems coming from this administration.
- giraffe_lady 1y agoThere is a certain "scams are legal now" vibe to american society these days. I wouldn't say it's directly caused by trump but he's certainly contributing to it.
- miltonlost 1y agoHell, just look at Trump's pro-crypto bill and you can see what he thinks about scams. (All crypto is a scam)
- adrr 1y agoI bet it’s also a rev share model. Hotel doesn’t pay for the device but revenue is shared. Like the traffic cameras where they shorten yellow light to durations that a car is incapable of stopping in time.
- walterbell 1y agoPrimitive contract asset tokenization. What other parts of the hotel-customer contract could become zero-capex financial instruments powered by ambiguous surveillance data, washed in health and safety? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_tokenization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_tokenization Asset tokenization refers to the process of converting rights to a real-world asset into a digital token on a blockchain or distributed ledger. These tokens represent ownership, rights, or claims on tangible or intangible assets and can be traded or transferred on digital platforms. https://cointelegraph.com/news/sec-tokenization-exemption-genius-act-passes https://cointelegraph.com/news/sec-tokenization-exemption-ge... > SEC.. considering changes that would promote tokenization, including an innovation exception that would allow for new trading methods and provide targeted relief to support the development of a tokenized securities ecosystem .. Atkins said the movement of assets onchain is inevitable, stating: “If it can be tokenized, it will be tokenized.”
- progbits 1y agoSo aside from Rest being incompetent morons ("temperature changes" from smoking??), they now also have incentive to make it trigger as much as possible.
- kotaKat 1y ago
- stogot 1y agoI assume if it’s triggering on car exhaust or something from opening room windows
- Proofread0592 1y agoWindows at these kinds of hotels usually do not open at all.
- jibe 1y agoThis hotel is a 2-3 story building, with sliding windows, and some balconies. There is opportunity for outside air to blow into the room.
- grishka 1y agoHair dryers are mentioned several times, so I would assume one of the things these sensors look for is a rise in the air temperature.
- gonzalohm 1y agoYou would need a pretty good sensor to detect a temperature increase from lighting a cigarette. Most likely, the hair dryer has a hair stuck that gets burnt once turned on
- lstamour 1y agoOr perhaps formaldehyde release from hair spray and other chemicals partly due to the heat of the hair dryer, but also released because of the agitation and wind. Technically I think perfume, sweat and trace amounts of smoking residue, including formaldehyde, from personal belongings could probably also raise VOCs as hotels often have very, very poor airflow by design - open windows and balconies have historically encouraged smokers so they were removed, but now you can rarely find any hotels with fresh air in the rooms, and those you find often smell of cigarette smoke for obvious reasons. (Smokers will often stay at hotels with airflow or balconies and take advantage of these features when they can. Also, airing out a room will kill a scent temporarily but only cleaning the room or replacing natural textiles will permanently remove the scent when the window is closed.)
- yellow_postit 1y agoWatch it turns out you can tune the FP rate like how casinos can set the win rate on slot machines.
- chii 1y ago> The awesome thing about black-box algorithms is they can't be challenged when they're wrong I want to call this "responsibility laundering". You get money, but wash away any responsibility, thus cleaning it.
- wwweston 1y agoThe more stuff is managed by algorithms, the more it’ll become important that there is a legal right to challenge them and even hold those who adopt or implement them some kind of accountable.
- sodality2 1y agoThere’s a great book about this called The Unaccountability Machine by Dan Davies.
- RainyDayTmrw 1y ago"We didn't know our vendor would do so badly." wink wink nudge nudge
- lowbloodsugar 1y agoSure they can. Sounds like a class action too.
- variadix 1y agoTrading the long term reputation of your company for short term profits. What could go wrong?
- unglaublich 1y agoNothing, it's a problem for future leaders. This is how modern economy works.
- izacus 1y agoNothing, it worked and keeps working for most of the companies, especially if they have sufficient market share and ability to prevent competition.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- 762236 1y agoIs there a way to deactivate the sensor if you find one in your room?
- staplers 1y agoThat could open a whole world of legal punishment for you far surpassing a small fee on your bill. Fire safety laws and such. Not that I think this is a good thing but the framework is there to make your life hell if you were caught doing this.
- varjag 1y agoFire sensors and alarm centrals are very regulated business. This shit won't pass for one.
- nkrisc 1y agoTape a Tupperware container over it like every college student does in their dorm.
- const_cast 1y agoThey're disrupting the scam market by creating new and innovative ways to scam customers out of their money. Seriously, why does every company these days seem to be running scams? You don't need that! You already make money - just keep doing that!
- CommenterPerson 1y agoThis escalated with the Mag 7 and surveillance capitalism. Now everyone wants to do it. Good for margins!
- mihaaly 1y agoActually when an algorithm results in something false, then you do not have to challange it, it is just simply wrong. Insisting and charging somoking based on implicit and obscure ways of a "revenue stream generating" detector is a pure scam or fraud. Those involved in this criminal endeavour should be procecuted. I will avoid Hyatt just in case and discourage my social circles too, warning them! No-one needs this sleazy treatment.
- alistairSH 1y agoDoes Hyatt corporate have any say in this? Pretty sure many hotels are licensing the name, independent managed, etc. Ie you’re just as likely to find these at an other brand hotels too.
- jerlam 1y agoI believe that most Hyatt hotels are franchises and not directly owned by corporate. The hotels have certain "brand standards" they must obey to be part of that brand, but management is local. Same as Hilton. Here's someone at a Marriott with the same bogus smoking fee: https://old.reddit.com/r/marriott/comments/1drhkvz/400_fee_westin_las_vegas/ https://old.reddit.com/r/marriott/comments/1drhkvz/400_fee_w...
- projektfu 1y agoYes, I'm sure they do. They will not be pleased if visits to corporate hotels drop because of their franchises.
- xyzal 1y agoYet when you try to impose legislation regulating black-box algorithms, suddenly it's among the HN crowd the Big Bad EU choking businesses and stifling progress, vid the recent AI agreement discussion.
- vineyardmike 1y agoRegulating "algorithms" doesn't mean banning. If an algorithm is used to make a decision, a human should be in the loop. There is no way these smoke detectors have any real algorithmic complexity, it's just a vague word used to hide intent and responsibility. How the EU AI agreement, focused on copyright and security, relevant to this? I can write an "algorithm" that uses hotel data to determine if you should be charged a penalty. Now we can't question it because it was an algorithm. > def charge_extra(data): return True