10 ms·
NIST ion clock sets new record for most accurate clock
- duncangh 1y agoImagine trying to set your oven and microwave clock to line up with it precisely after they reset from a power outage
- mikewarot 1y agoTo keep things in perspective, a vertical shift of a few centimeters could be measured if two of these clocks were placed next to each other, just by the lesser gravity/time dilation at the increased "altitude". It's an amazing time to be alive. While not this precise, you can have atomic cesium beam clocks of your own for a few thousand dollars each, and some elbow grease.
- nuker 1y ago> ... vertical shift of a few centimeters could be measured In what amount of time? Not instantly, right?
- hcknwscommenter 1y agoInstantly more or less. Time instantly moves differently at altitude because you are in a weaker gravitational field. The time dilation effect would be noticeable after 1 (or at most a few) ticks of the clocks.
- mitthrowaway2 1y agoI'm very skeptical of this claim. While the physical effect of time dilation acts immediately, I expect it would take many many ticks of both clocks before the rate difference between them became resolvable.
- Plutoberth 1y agoI don't understand. Wouldn't it only be possible to find out by comparing two identical clocks that were at different altitudes for some larger number of ticks, allowing you to then compare the elapsed ticks? How would you conduct such an experiment? My mental model is that I have a black box that outputs an electrical signal every tick, and then maybe we could just figure out which clock ticked first with a simple circuit. But that seems like we would need to sync them, and that it's fundamentally wrong due to the fact that the information of the tick is also subject to the speed of light. I don't know much beyond high school physics, fwiw.
- rcxdude 1y agoMy comment here might give some intuition for it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44576004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44576004 . You do need to measure for some time, because the measurement of the clocks with respect to each other is noisy, but you don't need to wait for there to be a whole 'tick' of extra time between them.
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- GolDDranks 1y agoAccording to ChatGPT, the speedup factor for getting 10 cm higher is 1 + 1.09e−17. (With ΔT = gh /(c^2) The math seems to check out, but not sure if the formula itself is correct.) Surely, if the clock ticks at rate 1e-19 in a second, i.e. one tick is hundred times smaller than the dilation difference in a second, the clock would still need at least a hundreth of a second to accumulate enough ticks for the count of ticks to differ even by one tick because of the dilation.
- GolDDranks 1y agoTo make this even clearer: Let's imagine that there is a huge amount of time dilation (we live on the surface of a neuron star or something). By climbing a bit, we experience 1.1 seconds instead of 1.0 seconds experienced by someone who left down. We have a clock that can measure milliseconds as the smallest tick. But climbing up, back down, and comparing the amount of ticks won't let us conclude anything after a single millisecond. If anything, we must spend at least 11 milliseconds up to have a noticeable 11 to 10 millisecond difference. Now, if the dilation was 1.01 seconds vs 1.00, we would need to spend at least 101 milliseconds up, to get a minimal comparison between 101 and 100 milliseconds.
- josephcsible 1y ago> Let's imagine that there is a huge amount of time dilation (we live on the surface of a neuron star or something). That idea is the premise of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence_(novel)
- rcxdude 1y agoThinking in terms of 'ticks' over-discretises it. You can in practice measure frequency to much more precision than any discrete cycle time in the system you're using, because you can usually measure phase, i.e. you're not just seeing some on-off flash, you're seeing a gradual pulse or wave, and it's how accurately you can measure that pulse (in terms of SNR) which sets your integration time for a given precision, not how rapidly you're measuring it.
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- CamperBob2 1y agoYes, and no. The time-dilation effect will happen instantly, but the more quickly you want to observe it, the better your measurement's S/N ratio will have to be... and that, in turn, requires narrow measurement bandwidths that imply longer observation times. So then the question has to be asked, does the effect really happen instantly? Or do the same mechanisms that impose an inverse relationship between bandwidth and SNR mean that, in fact, it doesn't happen instantly at all?
- myrmidon 1y agoTime dilation from general relativity is approximately gh/c^2 (1e-18 -ish), which is an order of magnitude bigger than the uncertainty on your clock frequency (1e-19 -ish). But you would need a more precise characterization of the clock to answer this. There might be significant noise on individual measurements, meaning that you need to take multiples to get precise enough (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance). Edit: If you just have clock output in ticks, you also need enought time to elapse to get a deviation of at least one tick between both bot clocks you are comparing. This is a big limitation, because at a clock rate of 1GHz you are still waiting for like 30 years (!!). (In practice you could probably cheat a bit to get around this limit)
- rcxdude 1y ago>Edit: If you just have clock output in ticks, you also need enought time to elapse to get a deviation of at least one tick between both bot clocks you are comparing. This is a big limitation, because at a clock rate of 1GHz you are still waiting for like 30 years (!!). (In practice you could probably cheat a bit to get around this limit) In practice with this level of precision you are usually measuring the relative phase of the two clocks, which allows substantially greater resolution than just looking at whole cycles, which is 'cheating' to some degree, I guess. (The limit is usually how noisy your phase measurement is) (To give some intuition, imaging comparing two pendulum clocks. I think you can probably see how if you take a series of pictures of the pendulums next to each other you could gauge whether one of them is running fast relative to the other, and by how much, without one completing one full swing more than the other)
- fsh 1y agoThese are optical clocks, so their rates are in the hundreds of THz to PHz range (1.121 PHz in the case of the Al+ clock). A 1e-18 shift corresponds to a ~mHz frequency deviation which a decent frequency counter can resolve in around 1s. However, no optical clock is actually that stable at short time scales, and the averaging is required to get rid of these fluctuations.
- MengerSponge 1y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_variance It takes a longer measurement to be more confident.
- perihelions 1y agoIn a 2010 experiment based on an older version of this clock[0], NIST succeeding in measuring the gravitational time dilation across a 33 cm vertical separation—a frequency difference of 4.1×10^{-17}—with 140,000 seconds of integration time (<2 days). I don't really understand how that worked. [0] https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1192720 https://sci-hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1126/science.1192720 ("Optical Clocks and Relativity" (2010))
- dlcarrier 1y agoFrom the article: This improves the clock’s stability, reducing the time required to measure down to the 19th decimal place from three weeks to a day and a half. So no, not instantly.
- ortusdux 1y agoThis is compared to the ~1 mile vertical shift resolution of cesium clocks. The fun part of cesium clocks is that you throw three in the back of a minivan and take them camping! http://leapsecond.com/great2005/ http://leapsecond.com/great2005/
- jahnu 1y agoCould we realistically get so accurate that we can measure time changes due to (human scale) mass movements near a clock?
- accrual 1y agoThat would be an amazing proximity sensor. "Looks like time slowed down again, there must be someone close by."
- gooseus 1y agoI'm curious if any sci-fi authors were knowledgable and prescient enough to write this into their world building? If not, it'd make for a pretty cool plot device if done well.
- globalise83 1y agoSubmarine detection would be interesting with a few such precise clocks.
- Avamander 1y ago> It's an amazing time to be alive. While not this precise, you can have atomic cesium beam clocks of your own for a few thousand dollars each, and some elbow grease. How hard or expensive would it be for a reasonably equipped lab to build their own optical clock though? I see there are optical clocks the size of few rack units on the market for a rather hefty price, are the materials needed that expensive or is it just the expertise?
- wbl 1y agoExpertise
- CamperBob2 1y agoWhat keeps your average home experimenter from building an optical clock is the fact that femtosecond combs are still way too expensive and exotic. Some progress has been made -- you can get them from ThorLabs, for instance ( https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=11422 https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=11... ) -- but they are still in the "Call for pricing and lead time" category. Once optical comb sources are commoditized to the extent that solid-state lasers are now, a lot of fun stuff will become possible.
- pumphaus 1y agoHeh, I would not ever have expected to see my company mentioned on HN. I'm the software tech lead at Menlo Systems, we're building those frequency combs that Thorlabs sells. Re the commoditization: Part of the problem is that customers, especially the scientific ones, don't want "commodity" frequency combs. Nearly every comb we sell is tailored to the specific customer in one way or another. Industrial customers start to be interested in frequency combs more and more. I guess this will be the clientele that values off-the-shelf products more, eventually paving the way for commoditization.
- nativeit 1y agoThe presence of individuals such as yourself is what makes the HN comments such a frequently meaningful place to find insightful discussions. Thanks for the context!!
- FredPret 1y agoThis is a great way to compare ultra-precise clocks! Also, I'm looking forward to Einsteinian altimeters everywhere.
- jl6 1y agoI fear this altimeter idea may be scuppered by local variations in the Earth’s density (it’s not an exactly uniform sphere of rock). Or maybe that just means the clocks could be great density-mappers!
- bravoetch 1y agoAre you saying they would be relatively inaccurate?
- ianburrell 1y agoIt is easier to measure density with gravimeter than measure gravitational force directly. Satellite, ACES, was launched recently that uses atomic clocks to accurately measure Earth's gravity field.
- FredPret 1y agoI had the same thought, but I still want one! On second thought, you need a base station on the ground to tell you its time for comparison anyway, so if that base station is nearby the density thing should mostly work itself out
- naikrovek 1y agoIsn’t the second defined as a specific number of cesium transitions? How can anything … you know what? Never mind. No matter what answer anyone provides, I won’t understand.
- nhecker 1y agoI don't think this changes the way the second is defined. Rather, that definition describes some theoretical ideal where the cesium transitions are all perfectly equally spaced over the course of the second. I think this new clock is simply able to generate more precisely spaced ticks than those of a traditional Cs clock. Less jitter and variation in the timing of those ticks. Similar to how a one-hour water clock or sand timer's runtime will vary between "transitions", but a one-hour quartz stopwatch timer is much more regular. I could keep going, but I'm already out on a limb so I'll stop before my own uncertainty rises too much. (Edit: I read the article. I don't think my words above are correct.)
- maxnoe 1y agoThe idea here is to have a clock that actually ticks faster and to redefine the second in terms of that new, faster ticking speed.
- shric 1y ago> Isn’t the second defined as a specific number of cesium transitions? Yes > How can anything … So your cesium counting device will fauthfully provide such a count and depending on their altitude it will be at different rates. Both clocks are each experiencing time at the usual one second per second but gravity dilates spacetime. Locally, a second is always a second, but from everywhere there is no such asbsolute, just as there is no universal "now".
- bilsbie 1y agoCould you detect gravity waves with accurate enough clocks?
- dtgriscom 1y agoThey would have to be extremely low-frequency. Plus, you'd need something to compare them to that wasn't affected by the wave, which is hard. (You'd need as accurate a clock, placed at a distance greater than the gravitational wavelength.) I think.
- tombert 1y agoI have had to talk myself out of the buying one of those atomic clocks on a chip. I'm kind of a watch geek, and I find the entire history of timekeeping to be endlessly fascinating, and I think it would be so cool to have atomic clock level of precision just running in my house. I've just never been able to justify actually buying one; outside of looking at a console and saying "how cool it that!?!", I don't know what I'd do with it. I'm not above buying a toy to look at logs and geek out over it, but I can't justifying spending several grand for it.
- reader9274 1y agoI was in the same boat some time ago, ended up settling for a Casio radio controlled "atomic" clock for multiple orders of magnitude cheaper
- tombert 1y agoYeah I have one of those, and of course my smartwatch syncs with my phone and gets very accurate time from the towers (which in turn probably gets very accurate time from NIST or something). They are very cool and realistically more than accurate enough for anything I am likely to ever need. Just something very cool about the idea of a hyper-accurate clock living in my house. I don’t know what I would do with it, just that it would be neat. If I ever become a billionaire or something, I will absolutely buy one. Sadly I don’t think that’s likely to happen any time soon.
- coldspoon95 1y agoWondering if we could spatially place a bunch of these to make a time based gravitational wave detectors. A single location could infer magnitude, and direction of a gravitational wave. I propose calling it TIGO(Time Interferometer Gravitational-Wave Observatory) ;-)
- pdmccormick 1y agoI wonder how many more orders of magnitude of precision will be realistically possible. I wonder if we'd ever be able to use gravity to "see" things at non-cosmological scales, like if you could resolve the gravitational waves and interference patterns caused by a person walking by.
- kridsdale3 1y agoSomeone call Hodinkee to write about this.
- net01 1y agoJeff Geerling
- Jeremy1026 1y agoI honestly just Ctrl+F'd for him to see if he commented yet.
- geerlingguy 1y agoBusy week after our AC died, but I'm taking some notes. I'm up to three running GPS clocks, one with OXCO, one with TXCO, and one with Rubidium holdover... going to finally be able to say what time it might be more intelligently :) Also, I hope to meet CuriousMarc this weekend! He's done some fascinating things with Cesium clocks.
- _joel 1y agoI'm not a fan, I'm a human being.
- perihelions 1y agoPreprint, https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.13071 https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.13071 ("High-Stability Single-Ion Clock with $5.5\times10^{-19}$ Systematic Uncertainty")
- jasonthorsness 1y agoThe article is very good and has some cool pictures of the device. Aluminum is apparently just better than cesium but harder to use and now they have solved the problems preventing it from being the standard.
- tguvot 1y agoSomewhat topical: in case you want authenticated access to NIST NTP servers, you need to send a letter to NIST using the US mail or FAX machine (e-mail is not acceptable). NIST will reply with a key number and a key value. The reply will be by US mail only, e-mail will never be used. The office that normally receives US mail and FAX messages currently has limited access, which may result in significant delays in processing requests https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-services/nist-authenticated-ntp-service https://www.nist.gov/pml/time-and-frequency-division/time-se... (things you discover when you implement fedramp)
- doublerabbit 1y agoSeems pretty tight for those outside of the USA. Is FAX allowed for those who live outside?
- GuB-42 1y agoI was thinking that it may be the point. This is a service paid by Americans, for Americans, and I suspect they don't want to make it too convenient, especially for non-Americans. From the link: > The service will be provided at no charge, and user keys may be used to connect to any of the servers whose addresses are listed below. Additional hardware will be added in the future if the demand for the service is sufficiently great to warrant it. Making it clear that they are going to shoulder the extra costs.
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- tguvot 1y agobetter question is will be they willing to mail you reply outside of usa. if you really want it, there are plenty of services that provide you with virtual mailbox in usa
- mccoyc 1y agoI wonder if they'd consider implementing NTS. https://github.com/jauderho/nts-servers/tree/main https://github.com/jauderho/nts-servers/tree/main
- Babkock 1y agoHow do you measure the accuracy of a clock? What if every clock is wrong, just a little bit?
- AStonesThrow 1y ago[dead]
- theultdev 1y agoit doesn't matter? it's the average of multiple atomic clocks and that's the time we distribute. it's a human construct so whatever is agreed upon is correct.
- monktastic1 1y agoIf this were true, then why even bother to make atomic clocks? Why would an article about the "most accurate clock" be interesting to smart people like HN readers if there's no objective measure of accuracy (or if it didn't matter)? The correct answer is in a sibling comment to yours: we base it on other things we know (or believe, anyway) to be constant.
- theultdev 1y agoI'm fully aware, but you seem to have misinterpreted what I was saying. If "all the clocks are wrong" it doesn't matter as long as they are consistent. (in the case of atomic clocks, frequency of energy transitions within atoms) All ntp servers get the average of atomic clocks, which is then distributed to all phones and computers. If the constants from these atomic clocks "are a little bit wrong" it does not matter (for most human activities) That's why we average them and distribute the average. For physics related research, this new clock being more precise does have use, but for pretty much everything else, whatever constant we have is good enough as long as it's consistently used. Back in the day it was someone just running around with a pocket watch giving everyone the time from the clock tower which was calibrated from a sundial and that was good enough. Replace the sun's shadow with electron transitions and the timekeepers with ntp servers and that's what you have today.
- mlhpdx 1y agoIs it a “clock” or a “clock signal”, in a similar sense that position encoders can be relative or “absolute” (but only within a specific range)?
- s0rce 1y agoIs there really an absolute reference point to measure time other than the big bang or something?
- colechristensen 1y agoRelativity. Every path starting at the big bang to the present has its own unique clock. These clocks can measure the difference in the flow of time between your head and your feet (and quite a lot more accurate than that)
- aeve890 1y agoWe can both agree that the Big Bang happened 13.8 billion years ago but that's all, we'll still disagree about the timing of everything else. Not even the CMB can be used as an universal rest frame. I'm not a cosmologist though.
- fsh 1y agoNo, we do not have an absolute reference point for time. Our best models of physics are time-translation symmetric (this is equivalent to conversation of energy via Noether's theorem), so absolute time cannot have any measurable effect. There is, however, a human made reference time scale (International Atomic Time, TAI) which is generated by the BIPM using (mostly GPS-based) comparisons of the local time scales of many national labs.
- colechristensen 1y agoThe clock signals can be counted and are accurate over long periods, it is not just a rate that drifts. Being able to count trillions of ticks is entirely possible in clocks or rotary encoders, just nobody bothers to do so on rotary encoders very often.
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- infogulch 1y agoSome recent discussions about atomic clocks: New atomic fountain clock joins group that keeps the world on time (nist.gov) | 118 points | 76 days ago | 33 comments | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43831792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43831792 Major leap for nuclear clock paves way for ultraprecise timekeeping (nist.gov) | 12 points | 7 months ago | 10 comments | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42362215 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42362215 I left a comment on the first that summarizes the second one, which describes how they're working on a new type of atomic "nuclear" clock based on the atomic nucleus instead of electron orbitals. It doesn't mention the accuracy, I wonder how it would compare to this "ion" clock.
- fsh 1y agoThe largest uncertainty of the Al+ clock is caused by relativistic time dilation due to the ion moving around a bit in the ion trap. This would affect a 229Th clock in the same way, but maybe the larger atomic mass would help.
- throw0101c 1y agoThat's great and all, but stepping back a bit: the US (and the West?) seems to be falling behind in distribution and resiliency. For high-accuracy timing stuff, China has space (BeiDou), terrestrial broadcast (eLoran), and fiber in production: * https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-eloran-network-the-paper/ https://rntfnd.org/2024/10/03/china-completes-national-elora... As we've seen regularly, GPS/GNSS has major risks with it, and it seems to have become a single point of failure: * https://gpsjam.org https://gpsjam.org * https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/msc-container-ship-stranded-in-red-sea-after-suspected-gps-spoofing/ https://www.marineinsight.com/shipping-news/msc-container-sh... * https://gcaptain.com/gps-jamming-in-strait-of-hormuz-raises-maritime-safety-concerns-after-tanker-collision/ https://gcaptain.com/gps-jamming-in-strait-of-hormuz-raises-...
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- searine 1y agoYet another advance brought to you by US tax dollars funding basic science for the public good. Please don't let them embezzle the future of scientific innovation.
- userbinator 1y agoThis is the science that needs to stay. The crap that pretends to be science can get gutted.
- searine 1y agoWhat exactly is 'pretending' and what is 'real'? Are we to leave that up to the politicians to decide that rather than the scientists themselves? The 'deal' of basic science in the US is that the government funds broadly and without prejudice. Topics are decided by experts and overseen by experts. These experts are taking large pay-cuts (compared to their worth in industry) to have the freedom to investigate their own interests. In return the public gets a vast amount of R&D on the cheap, much of which doesn't seem to have immediate ROI, but as we well know, has tremendous long term ROI. When you have politicians deciding what is 'real' and 'pretend' then you break the fundamental deal by removing academic freedom. I certainly agree there is some useless science. But in this case, the demagogues are politicizing some science as an excuse to cut all science and embezzle the funds. Cancer, alzheimer's, infectious disease. It's all being cut right now, all because people are mad some grad student took 15K to study the relationship of smell to the gender identity of frogs.
- gwerbret 1y agoPedant here! > NIST researchers have made the most accurate atomic clock to date — one that can measure time down to the 19th decimal place. That's precision, not accuracy.
- _se 1y agoNope, it is not. A single measurement cannot be precise. Precision is a measure of how close multiple measurements are to one another. Accuracy is how close a single measurement is to its true value. A clock that can measure a point in time to 19 decimal places with respect to its true value is accurate.
- johnnyballgame 1y agoWhat is that true value? And was it accurate?
- _se 1y agoUnfortunately, I am not a time lord, so I don't know. But I do know the definitions of these words, and that is what they are. You are free to argue with someone else about the true meaning of time. A single measurement can _never_ be precise, it is simply not possible.
- RyJones 1y agoTell me you have never shot a rifle for score, without saying you haven't. You can be accurate, precise, or both. Said clock may be precise, but not accurate.
- konstantinua00 1y agothere is no true value, so it's not accuracy it's precision
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- riwsky 1y agoIt’s about time.
- frankfrank13 1y agoSKO BUFFS I briefly worked at NOAA, on this same campus, and I loved walking around NIST. Such a cool building. The entire campus is at risk -> https://www.cpr.org/2025/07/01/proposed-noaa-budget-would-close-boulder-labs/ https://www.cpr.org/2025/07/01/proposed-noaa-budget-would-cl...
- CoastalCoder 1y agoKind of related(?), I see that construction is continuing for NOAA's new marine operations facility at Naval Station Newport in Rhode Island. Is there a meaningful pattern or logic to explain the combination of potential closures alongside new construction?
- kaapipo 1y agoSo fun even NIST can't get right the difference between precise and accurate
- johnnyballgame 1y agoDoes it come with a snooze button?
- user3939382 1y agoIf I'm not mistaken this improves a critical bottleneck on GPS precision, solutions to which will open up amazing applications. Driving lane boundaries just being one example.
- AlotOfReading 1y agoIt could improve accuracy and does help a significant error factor, but the biggest error sources in GNSS aren't clock errors. Even a perfect clock could still have several meters of error.
- rcxdude 1y agoThe main errors in GPS are usually due to variation in the propagation of the signals through the atmosphere, and uncertainty in the exact position of the satellites. (Solutions for these exist, but are generally too expensive and/or impractical for a lot of applications. But e.g. realtime GPS on the order of cm is something you can get now, if you pay for a subscription to the right service or operate your own reference base station)
- gerdesj 1y agoI'm not sure using a web of satellite borne clocks to do location to say three inches or 10cm accuracy is a great idea, especially when the "device" is moving at say 70mph. Not only that, you will need some amazingly exact maps that agree with the satellites' idea of "location". Lane awareness accuracy needs some serious looking at. Lane markings are designed for the human eye for obvious reasons. Those white lines and "cats eyes" are quite literally (lol) visual cues to keep you on track. If we want machines to drive for us then we will need other ways to do lane compliance, rather than just assist. My Chinese designed MG4 EV has lane assist. It certainly has four optical cameras but beyond that, I don't know - I think it has a fore and aft proximity sensor of some sort. I do know it makes some dreadful errors of judgment with regards lanes. It's normally fine on a motorway or dual carriageway but gets confused on even a major A road (eg A30) when there are striations in the road surface or its wet or the sun is at the right angle to make skid marks look like lines. If roads had something like a steel wire armoured cable buried underneath each lane and boundary line and there was a suitably cheap detector and sensors that could look far enough ahead and model the road then that might be a reasonably cheap option to augment optical systems. Now, more sensors cost money, sorry, cost profits. They also add complexity and so on. Sadly I think we will continue to see daft things like ... I gather that Teslas will only sport optical sensors and no LIDAR. Autonomous cars are possible but they do need to be given a decent amount of, and variety of, ... sensors. GPS will get you very well located on a map but you need local sensors to sort out localisation issues.
- renlo 1y agoas a layman, wouldn't you need a more-accurate clock to measure the accuracy of a clock? How is clock accuracy measured when the clock is the most accurate clock?
- hoseja 1y agoWell for example you can take several of the clocks and compare them.
- CoastalCoder 1y agoWould that require the assumption that any inaccuracies affecting multiple clocks are uncorrelated with each other?
- herrmaier 1y agoNext family meetup. Uncle: “So, how’s work?” Them: “Yeah, I just made the universe’s most ridiculous clock this year.” Absolute power move.
- Neywiny 1y agoI like that the best clock is made from diamonds and gold. Very Minecraft