6 ms·

Astronomers race to study interstellar interloper

151 points by bikenaga 1y ago

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
cryptonector 1y ago
<insert Rama references>
TheBlight 1y ago
Vera Rubin isn't even giving us data dumps yet. It's going to be like a veritable firehose of interstellar object detections. Should be a wild time for the field.
k__ 1y ago
I hope this will end better than in Outer Wilds.
- konstantinua00 1y ago
  yeah, my first thought was "can we not bring bad omen with the word interloper into this?"
- OneDeuxTriSeiGo 1y ago
  LMAO. That was the exact immediate reaction I had as well. The outer wilds brain rot is truly inescapable.
  - xeonmc 1y ago
    Surely you meant Outer Wilds enlightenment.
rtkwe 1y ago
On a similar vein there's Project Lyra which is a theoretical fly-by mission of ʻOumuamua or 2I/Borisov. The proposed trajectories to catch up are pretty crazy with my favorite being the 2030 launch for a 2052 fly-by that uses Jupiter and a close Sol 10 solar radii!) gravity assist to rocket out of the solar system [0]. It will be interesting to see if we've just been missing these extra solar objects. I have doubts we'll actually do a project Lyra style fly-by though. Funding is going the opposite direction and all. [0] http://orbitsimulator.com/BA/lyra.gif http://orbitsimulator.com/BA/lyra.gif and https://i4is.org/project-lyra-a-solar-oberth-at-10-solar-radii/#gsc.tab=0 https://i4is.org/project-lyra-a-solar-oberth-at-10-solar-rad...
- jerf 1y ago
  I'd expect this is just the lamppost effect and we'll start seeing lots of these. It means there's no great need to chase any particular one of them, we can almost certainly wait until we're ready, then pick one that is convenient at the time. It also means that "Oumuamua is an alien craft!" will almost certainly join in the ignoble legacy of "thinking the first instance of a new thing must be ALIENS" once we've detected hundreds of these (or more, depending on how sensitive we can get). You'd really think we'd be over this by now, but apparently not.
  - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
    If we ever stop being excited about the possibility that poorly understood phenomena are evidence of undiscovered intelligent life the we'll have lost a part of our humanity.
    - pfdietz 1y ago
      That's just bullshit. The idea that undiscovered intelligent life is a plausible explanation for such things is just the triumph of numerically illiterate wishful thinking over rational thought.
      - foxglacier 1y ago
        It's a triumph of humanity over rational thought. Imagining intelligent beings is a core part of being human. We do it with gods, ghosts, monsters, etc. It's exciting and it's kind of a major reason we're exploring space to begin with. If you want pure rationality, might as well kill all astronomy research because what's the point? We do it because it's exciting to discover things, not for any practical purpose.
      - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
        I'm not saying that it's a conclusion that we should jump to. Just that it's silly to expect people not to consider it first. It's more related to why we're looking up in the first place than any of its alternatives.
pfdietz 1y ago
This object has quite the hyperbolic excess. There's no doubt it's not a solar system object.
csours 1y ago
With Vera Rubin's Large Synoptic Survey Telescope coming online, we'll likely see many more of these. It seems like it would be very difficult to physically intercept any large percentage; what is the next best alternative to physical interception? Lasers? Masers? Comet trail sampling? Pre-staged interceptors?(Interstellar Interloper Interceptor? I'd be interested in entertaining the possibility)
- ahazred8ta 1y ago
  "We are Engineers at the Vera Rubin Observatory, Ask Us Anything!" https://old.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1lwgfre/we_are_engineers_at_the_vera_rubin_observatory/ https://old.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1lwgfre/we_are_engin...
Eduard 1y ago
https://archive.is/F3Vad https://archive.is/F3Vad
layer8 1y ago
The Wikipedia article [0] has a nice animation [1] of the trajectory through the inner solar system, sourced from this [2] 3D interactive viewer (press “Plot Object” and then drag the slider below “Change Time Speed”). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS#/media/File%3A3I_ATLAS_animation3.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS#/media/File%3A3I_ATLA... [2] https://neofixer.arizona.edu/css-orbit-view https://neofixer.arizona.edu/css-orbit-view
- perilunar 1y ago
  Thanks for [2]. The wikipedia animation makes it look roughly in-plane, but the 3D viewer shows that it is very much not.
ddahlen 1y ago
I'm one of those astronomers! I'm working on my PhD in orbital dynamics. A lot of people are requesting discretionary time on telescopes trying to get observations in. The orbit will put us on the other side of the sun when 3I is nearest the sun in october, we can see it now and after it comes back out from behind the sun. Unfortunately, right now the it is in a very crowded star field (IE, its close to the galactic plane, lots of stars in the background). If you are interested in orbital dynamics, I have an open source rust/python package for accurate orbital calculations of asteroids/comets: https://github.com/dahlend/kete https://github.com/dahlend/kete
- milleramp 1y ago
  Is there a rule of thumb speed where an object is considered not from this solar system?
  - bloak 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity#Calculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity#Calculation (assuming it hasn't interacted significantly with any other object in the solar system besides the sun)
  - ddahlen 1y ago
    Eccentricity! You can approximate the orbits of basically everything in the solar system using 2-body mechanics (IE, ignore the planets). If you do this you get orbits which are elliptical (eccentricity <1), parabolic (eccentricity = 1), or hyperbolic (eccentricity>1). If the object has an eccentricity above 1, its not bound to the solar system. Many long period comets have eccentricity hovering near 1, often these long period comets will be on their first pass (sometimes only pass) through the solar system. These comets though usually dont get much above eccentricity of 1. The 3 interstellars we have spotted have had like 1.2 or bigger. This one is above eccentricity 6! Its moving fast. Edit: I have heard that when the first interstellar was found it actually broke a lot of peoples code, as it was common to hard code limits to allowed eccentricities (or simply not support ecc>1 at all).
xoxxala 1y ago
Sixty Symbols has a nice overview video on 3I/ATLAS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRHZUH0RcQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRHZUH0RcQ4
skc 1y ago
My mind is boggled at the speed with which an object that size is travelling. Amazing.
GMoromisato 1y ago
The designation 3I means the third interstellar object discovered. 1I (Oumuamua) was discovered in 2017, and the new Vera Rubin telescope is likely to discover a lot more in the future. We're just at the beginning of finding this new population of objects, and I think it's very exciting. It's like when Ceres was first discovered (in 1801) and suddenly people found a whole population of asteroids between Mars and Jupiter. We're in a similar time now with interstellar objects. How many interstellar objects pass through the Solar System each year? How many will we find in the next 10 years? We're about to find out.
rbanffy 1y ago
I often wonder what would it take to have a rocket capable of launching a pre-packaged probe to intercept such objects. What would it look like? An SLS with a cubesat on top?

151 points by bikenaga 1y ago

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

cryptonector 1y ago

TheBlight 1y ago

Vera Rubin isn't even giving us data dumps yet. It's going to be like a veritable firehose of interstellar object detections. Should be a wild time for the field.

k__ 1y ago

I hope this will end better than in Outer Wilds.

konstantinua00 1y ago
yeah, my first thought was "can we not bring bad omen with the word interloper into this?"
OneDeuxTriSeiGo 1y ago
LMAO. That was the exact immediate reaction I had as well. The outer wilds brain rot is truly inescapable.
- xeonmc 1y ago
  Surely you meant Outer Wilds enlightenment.

rtkwe 1y ago

On a similar vein there's Project Lyra which is a theoretical fly-by mission of ʻOumuamua or 2I/Borisov. The proposed trajectories to catch up are pretty crazy with my favorite being the 2030 launch for a 2052 fly-by that uses Jupiter and a close Sol 10 solar radii!) gravity assist to rocket out of the solar system [0]. It will be interesting to see if we've just been missing these extra solar objects. I have doubts we'll actually do a project Lyra style fly-by though. Funding is going the opposite direction and all. [0] http://orbitsimulator.com/BA/lyra.gif http://orbitsimulator.com/BA/lyra.gif and https://i4is.org/project-lyra-a-solar-oberth-at-10-solar-radii/#gsc.tab=0 https://i4is.org/project-lyra-a-solar-oberth-at-10-solar-rad...

jerf 1y ago
I'd expect this is just the lamppost effect and we'll start seeing lots of these. It means there's no great need to chase any particular one of them, we can almost certainly wait until we're ready, then pick one that is convenient at the time. It also means that "Oumuamua is an alien craft!" will almost certainly join in the ignoble legacy of "thinking the first instance of a new thing must be ALIENS" once we've detected hundreds of these (or more, depending on how sensitive we can get). You'd really think we'd be over this by now, but apparently not.
- __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
  If we ever stop being excited about the possibility that poorly understood phenomena are evidence of undiscovered intelligent life the we'll have lost a part of our humanity.
  - pfdietz 1y ago
    That's just bullshit. The idea that undiscovered intelligent life is a plausible explanation for such things is just the triumph of numerically illiterate wishful thinking over rational thought.
    - foxglacier 1y ago
      It's a triumph of humanity over rational thought. Imagining intelligent beings is a core part of being human. We do it with gods, ghosts, monsters, etc. It's exciting and it's kind of a major reason we're exploring space to begin with. If you want pure rationality, might as well kill all astronomy research because what's the point? We do it because it's exciting to discover things, not for any practical purpose.
    - __MatrixMan__ 1y ago
      I'm not saying that it's a conclusion that we should jump to. Just that it's silly to expect people not to consider it first. It's more related to why we're looking up in the first place than any of its alternatives.

pfdietz 1y ago

This object has quite the hyperbolic excess. There's no doubt it's not a solar system object.

csours 1y ago

With Vera Rubin's Large Synoptic Survey Telescope coming online, we'll likely see many more of these. It seems like it would be very difficult to physically intercept any large percentage; what is the next best alternative to physical interception? Lasers? Masers? Comet trail sampling? Pre-staged interceptors?(Interstellar Interloper Interceptor? I'd be interested in entertaining the possibility)

ahazred8ta 1y ago
"We are Engineers at the Vera Rubin Observatory, Ask Us Anything!" https://old.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1lwgfre/we_are_engineers_at_the_vera_rubin_observatory/ https://old.reddit.com/r/space/comments/1lwgfre/we_are_engin...

Eduard 1y ago

https://archive.is/F3Vad https://archive.is/F3Vad

layer8 1y ago

The Wikipedia article [0] has a nice animation [1] of the trajectory through the inner solar system, sourced from this [2] 3D interactive viewer (press “Plot Object” and then drag the slider below “Change Time Speed”). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS#/media/File%3A3I_ATLAS_animation3.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3I/ATLAS#/media/File%3A3I_ATLA... [2] https://neofixer.arizona.edu/css-orbit-view https://neofixer.arizona.edu/css-orbit-view

perilunar 1y ago
Thanks for [2]. The wikipedia animation makes it look roughly in-plane, but the 3D viewer shows that it is very much not.

ddahlen 1y ago

I'm one of those astronomers! I'm working on my PhD in orbital dynamics. A lot of people are requesting discretionary time on telescopes trying to get observations in. The orbit will put us on the other side of the sun when 3I is nearest the sun in october, we can see it now and after it comes back out from behind the sun. Unfortunately, right now the it is in a very crowded star field (IE, its close to the galactic plane, lots of stars in the background). If you are interested in orbital dynamics, I have an open source rust/python package for accurate orbital calculations of asteroids/comets: https://github.com/dahlend/kete https://github.com/dahlend/kete

milleramp 1y ago
Is there a rule of thumb speed where an object is considered not from this solar system?
- bloak 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity#Calculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_velocity#Calculation (assuming it hasn't interacted significantly with any other object in the solar system besides the sun)
- ddahlen 1y ago
  Eccentricity! You can approximate the orbits of basically everything in the solar system using 2-body mechanics (IE, ignore the planets). If you do this you get orbits which are elliptical (eccentricity <1), parabolic (eccentricity = 1), or hyperbolic (eccentricity>1). If the object has an eccentricity above 1, its not bound to the solar system. Many long period comets have eccentricity hovering near 1, often these long period comets will be on their first pass (sometimes only pass) through the solar system. These comets though usually dont get much above eccentricity of 1. The 3 interstellars we have spotted have had like 1.2 or bigger. This one is above eccentricity 6! Its moving fast. Edit: I have heard that when the first interstellar was found it actually broke a lot of peoples code, as it was common to hard code limits to allowed eccentricities (or simply not support ecc>1 at all).

xoxxala 1y ago

Sixty Symbols has a nice overview video on 3I/ATLAS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRHZUH0RcQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRHZUH0RcQ4

skc 1y ago

My mind is boggled at the speed with which an object that size is travelling. Amazing.

GMoromisato 1y ago

The designation 3I means the third interstellar object discovered. 1I (Oumuamua) was discovered in 2017, and the new Vera Rubin telescope is likely to discover a lot more in the future. We're just at the beginning of finding this new population of objects, and I think it's very exciting. It's like when Ceres was first discovered (in 1801) and suddenly people found a whole population of asteroids between Mars and Jupiter. We're in a similar time now with interstellar objects. How many interstellar objects pass through the Solar System each year? How many will we find in the next 10 years? We're about to find out.

rbanffy 1y ago

I often wonder what would it take to have a rocket capable of launching a pre-packaged probe to intercept such objects. What would it look like? An SLS with a cubesat on top?