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I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not un

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn't understand why someone would buy the opportunity to work long hours at a retail position and end up hopefully clearing a middle class salary at the end of the year. They assumed that there must be a real reason why people were signing up and the real reason was to put their hands in the till. So they ended up assuming the postmasters were stealing, and the purpose of the accounting software was to detect the fraud so it could be prosecuted. When the accounting software started finding vast amounts of missing funds, they ignored questions about the software because it was working as intended. I bet if the opposite had happened, and it found very little fraud, they would have become suspicious of the software because their priors were that the postmasters were a bunch of thieves.

imtringued 1y ago
This is utterly illogical. Who in their right mind would commit a crime with a 100% probability of getting caught? This isn't a classic embezzlement of public funds, where the people receiving the money are also the people deciding whether it was well spent or not and hence could easily divert some of the money through behind the scenes deals with contractors without getting caught. The "embezzlement" here is on the level of getting an invoice and not paying it.
hnfong 1y ago
Fascinating. Do you have references for the motives/biases of the PO leadership?
- jordanb 1y ago
  My entry-point was listening to this podcast, it's pretty long but it goes into the fact that the purpose of horizon was to detect fraud and reduce shrinkage, that the leadership and their consultants were coming up with outsized estimates for the amount of fraud and using that as financial justification for the project. They also talk about postmaster's motivations for buying a franchise and how sitting behind a retail desk in a small town with a modest but steady income is actually one of the best outcomes available to the type of working-class Briton who was buying the franchise. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7j https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7j
  - amiga386 1y ago
    I haven't listened to the podcast, but I think you may be oversimplifying. The origin of Horizon is that ICL won the tender for a project to computerise the UK's benefits payment system -- replacing giro books (like cheque books) with smart cards (like bank cards): https://inews.co.uk/news/post-office-warned-fujitsu-horizon-scandal-2848603 https://inews.co.uk/news/post-office-warned-fujitsu-horizon-... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmtrdind/530/53002.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmtr... Sure, it was also expected to detect fraud, but overall it was a "modernising" project. The project failed disastrously because ICL were completely incompetent at building an accounting system, the system regularly made huge mistakes, and the incoming government scrapped it. ICL was nonetheless still very chummy with government, as it was concieved of by 1960s British politicians who basically wanted a UK version of IBM because they didn't want Americans being in control of all the UK's computer systems. ICL used to operate mainframes and supply "computer terminals" to government and such, which is why they needed a lot of equipment from Fujitsu, which is why Fujitsu decided to buy them. ICL/Fujitsu still kept the contract to computerize Post Office accounting more generally -- Horizon. Post Offices could literally have pen-and-paper accounting until this! Yes, the project was also meant to look for fraud and shrinkage, but at its heart it was there to modernise, centralise and reduce costs. If only it wasn't written by incompetent morons who keep winning contracts because they're sweet with government.
jen20 1y ago
I suspect there's more to it in than that. I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point. If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujitsu, I believe?) ever get any work again, it will be a travesty of justice.
- slim 1y ago
  what's the mistake of fujitsu here ? we all know how software is made and that bugs happen and if nobody reports them they never get fixed
- jordanb 1y ago
  Yes at some point it turned into CYA. When the leadership started realizing that there were problems with the software they started doubling down, getting even more aggressive with prosecutions, because they were trying to hide their own fuckups. But when the ball started rolling, as the software rolled out and was finding missing funds everywhere, you'd think a normal person would have asked "are we sure there are no bugs here?" That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    > That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors. That has to be the most egregious confirmation bias I've heard about.
- Maxious 1y ago
  I regret to inform you that not only is Fujitsu not banned from UK government work, they're not even banned from continuing the same project https://www.publictechnology.net/2025/03/17/business-and-industry/horizon-post-office-to-spend-75m-on-one-year-extension-to-2026/ https://www.publictechnology.net/2025/03/17/business-and-ind...
XTXinverseXTY 1y ago
Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?
- trollbridge 1y ago
  People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes. And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.
  - wiether 1y ago
    > And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job. That's the same _class_ element that OP was talking about, no? I guess most of the people on HN don't see issue with people going into debt to get a degree, which is supposed to get them a job. So how is it different to people going into debt to buy a franchise? It's even a more straightforward way to actually get a job, while a degree, if it goes out of fashion on the job market, would have absolutely no use, and you'll have to flip the same burgers as the lad with no degree and no student debt.
  - HPsquared 1y ago
    It's not much different from going into debt to get a degree to get a job. Especially if your chosen field has only a single employer. In fact the college degree is often more speculative and risky, and a worse deal.
  - rwmj 1y ago
    Running a pub is a time-honoured way to lose money in the UK. They're essentially scams to steer the life savings of the working class into the accounts of large breweries. Edit: A timely news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8llxmnx7o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8llxmnx7o
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 1y ago
ionwake 1y ago
I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.
- jordanb 1y ago
  I don't mean to let the leadership off the hook. What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. There were two phases though: the initial rollout, and sometime later the coverup. If they had asked very reasonable questions about the software during the rollout there would have been no need for a coverup. No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post offices had missing funds and if they were sure if it was real or not. The PO leadership basically ignored all evidence that there were bugs from the very beginning, and that makes no sense until you realize that they were starting from the premise that the postmasters are thieves and this software is going to catch them.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - shkkmo 1y ago
    > No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post offices had missing funds and if they were sure if it was real or not. It would be reasonable, but that also assumes the ass-covering started post rollout rather than pre rollout.
  - I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago
    >What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands.< This, so much this. Not ONLY that but they kept DOUBLING DOWN for YEARS. I SO SO wish they would be held accountable for the pain, suffering, Chapter 11's, AND the suicides.
    - flerchin 1y ago
LightBug1 1y ago
Interesting insight. Thanks.
duxup 1y ago
These kinds of assumptions about fraud always make me wonder about the folks in charge. I was at a company acquired by silicon valley company. Our tech support department was folded into another tech support department. Immediately the folks in the valley were upset that we closed more cases / had far higher customer satisfaction scores ... by far. They made no secret that they assumed that us mid-westerners doing the same job had to be inferior at the same job. Eventually a pool of managers in the valley developed a full blown conspiracy theory that we were cooking the books by making fake cases and so on. It just had to be that right? No other explanation. They finally got someone in an outside department to look into it. They found folks closing cases prematurely and even duplicating cases. The people doing it all worked for the managers pointing fingers at everyone else ... Sometimes the folks who talk about fraud think those things because that's how they work.
- partdavid 1y ago
  Accusations are often confessions.
njovin 1y ago
So the PO creates a franchise program that they later decide isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor, and instead of revising the terms of the franchise program to make it so, they assume that the participants are criminals and prosecute them?
- blitzar 1y ago
  sociopathic lack of empathy basically
- flir 1y ago
  I see you've worked with a moribund bureaucracy before.
- LiquidSky 1y ago
  > isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor I think this is the parent’s point: this is the POV of the rich and powerful who lead the organization. They can’t imagine someone in a different position seeing these franchises as a way to secure good (or at least decent), long-term, stable employment.
- lawlessone 1y ago
  The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101
  - citizenpaul 1y ago
    There is a rather famous book written on this subject. Catch-22. In order to be given disability you must jump through so many hoops that no one whom is actually sick could complete them. Or how in unemployment you must prove you must spend your time proving you are looking for a job so you cannot spend you time actually looking for a job. My personal fav because its almost universal is sick-day policies that codify 100% abuse of sick days because people are punished for not using them because some people were "abusing" their sick days. In the case of the book to be discharged from military service they must prove they are insane which no insane person could complete.
forinti 1y ago
That's interesting. I read a lot about this case, but I don't recall anything along these lines. This does explain why the leadership was so stubborn.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sarreph 1y ago
This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.
- klik99 1y ago
  As a cultural mutt between US and UK, I think UK is "class-aware" and US is more obsessed with the idea that if we all wear jeans then class isn't a thing. I see the same class contempt in US as the UK, and not recognizing it for what it is keeps people divided.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - sarreph 1y ago
    I agree that contempt arises in both cultures. My point about the UK was more around the phenomenon that the class "obsession" stems from the notion that somebody's class in the UK is ostensibly immutable from birth. (It is my impression that class in the US is much more about money; your status and class can be correlated / increased by your level of wealth). In the UK it doesn't really matter if you become a millionaire or billionaire, you still won't be able to perforate the perception of "where you came from". This leads to all kinds of baseless biases such as OP's observation / point.
    - comprev 1y ago
      From my experience living most of my life in the UK from birth there is an element of truth to class being immutable - being directly linked to money and the status of property ownership - for now anyway. The Thatcher years created an opportunity for working class (who traditionally lived in rent controlled properties due to low income) to purchase their houses for pennies on the dollar. Suddenly, millions of families felt they had moved up a class. They were no longer at the mercy of landlords and had moved up in society from a tenant to an owner. The traditional three tiers of lower, middle and upper class changed to lower, lower-middle, upper-middle and upper. From my observations the lower-middle class are still adjusting not to having money but rather _access_ to money previously denied. Having equity in a property as a guarantee of a loan opens up a world previously off limits by the banks. A bit like when someone turns 18 and they have access to credit cards - lots of cash easily available! I come from a family where (with the exception of a mortgage), if you can't pay for something in cash (and still have plenty in reserve), you can't afford it. My folks were very proud of raising a family with zero debts (minus the mortgage), and I'm forever thankful. The families I knew (and by extension others living on the typical "cookie cutter" UK housing estate) were swimming in debt. What surprised me the most was how "normal" it was - 3yr (or less) car on the drive; massive flatscreen TVs (in 2007); multiple cruise holidays per year; flying off to a warm destination mid-winter. Many of them said when they were younger they never experienced such things and told stories of growing up in near poverty. Going into debt for holidays and having a new car on the drive was normalised. These were nurses, postmen, truck drivers, retail staff, hospitality etc. all traditional working class jobs with low salary expectations. They were trying desperately to _appear_ like they were middle class at whatever cost. I'm of the belief it will still take a few generations before the wave of lower-middle class learn that it's not about having a new car on the drive but rather having that cash in the bank as savings - and a significantly cheaper (& older) car on the drive. And yet the UK school system doesn't teach pupils about sensible financial matters - we all rely on our parents to guide us - so escaping the "buy it now on credit" mentality will be easier said that done!
klik99 1y ago
Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force. Growing up half in England and US I feel British culture is more attuned to the class aspects to this kind of event. Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist (think of, people on welfare angry at welfare queens, unaware they will be affected by legislation they support).
- sm00thbr41n 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    >libs think Please don’t bring that nonsense here
    - Forgeties79 1y ago
      Fascinating watching the vote count on this slide up and down even when the other comment isn’t viewable
    - sm00thbr41n 1y ago
      [dead]
- AceJohnny2 1y ago
  > Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.
pipes 1y ago
I've been following this since the guardian wrote about it, maybe 2011 or 2013 (private eye was earlier) It was insane. I couldn't understand the lack of fuss. Maybe it is because as a programmer I guess that 95 percent of all software is complete shit and most of the developers don't know or don't care. You've hit the nail on the head "why would anyone want a middle class life" yeah they have never known anything less than that. The other factor to me is the careerism, all that matters is the project success, who cares if the riff raff end up committing suicide. Honestly listening to some of the tapes of those meetings makes me feel sick. Thing is, I think so many career orientated people I know wouldn't even consider that what went on in the meetings was beyond the pale. It's black mirror level. I'm from Ireland, but I live on "mainland Britain" the UK class system is mind boggling. I think the establishment here despises the "great unwashed". God help any working class person who ends up in the courts system. One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells I don't know why that makes this all worse but some how it does. Somehow it speaks to what the UK is or has become. I doubt she'll get the prison time she deserves. Actually I doubt she'll serve any time at all.
- boppo1 1y ago
  Where can I listen to these tapes, particularly the ones you describe as black-mirror level?
  - pipes 1y ago
    For a while the YouTube algorithm was suggesting clips of them to me. I think it was from a British newspaper.
- hermitcrab 1y ago
  >One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells She was very nearly parachuted in a Bishop of London, off the 'success' of her term in the post office: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67923190 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67923190
dimal 1y ago
Interesting how supposed fraud from lower class people is a high priority that must be punished, but fraud from upper class people is almost always protected by the corporate veil.
- wuming2 1y ago
  I came to realize spending few minutes every so many years to cast a vote in between the purchase of that great massage gun and groceries shopping, for party members who have been extensively vetted and not by you, doesn’t entitle to any control. Democracy is simply the most successful strategy to make believe into fairness and reduce costs of exercising power. With the capability to excise taxes and leverage them into debt that will always be repaid, one way or another, until the last citizen breathes government is, and always was, the greatest business of all times. Corporations who invest at every level, all the time, to make a buck do buy control. Mostly proportional to their investments into the wheels of government.
- m101 1y ago
  Let's not even talk about the financial crisis
  - downrightmike 1y ago
    We solved that by printing money and bailing everyone out, they didn't even have to promise not to do it again, such good chaps.
Kinrany 1y ago
How good or bad of a decision was it in reality? E.g. what was the real salary on top of what one would earn from investing in index?
thom 1y ago
The purpose of a system is what it does.
- jstanley 1y ago
  Conversely, https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpose-of https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo...
- DoctorOetker 1y ago
  There once was grafitti in my city which read something like: "Every system creates, the bullshit it deserves"

imtringued 1y ago

This is utterly illogical. Who in their right mind would commit a crime with a 100% probability of getting caught? This isn't a classic embezzlement of public funds, where the people receiving the money are also the people deciding whether it was well spent or not and hence could easily divert some of the money through behind the scenes deals with contractors without getting caught. The "embezzlement" here is on the level of getting an invoice and not paying it.

hnfong 1y ago

Fascinating. Do you have references for the motives/biases of the PO leadership?

jordanb 1y ago
My entry-point was listening to this podcast, it's pretty long but it goes into the fact that the purpose of horizon was to detect fraud and reduce shrinkage, that the leadership and their consultants were coming up with outsized estimates for the amount of fraud and using that as financial justification for the project. They also talk about postmaster's motivations for buying a franchise and how sitting behind a retail desk in a small town with a modest but steady income is actually one of the best outcomes available to the type of working-class Briton who was buying the franchise. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7j https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000jf7j
- amiga386 1y ago
  I haven't listened to the podcast, but I think you may be oversimplifying. The origin of Horizon is that ICL won the tender for a project to computerise the UK's benefits payment system -- replacing giro books (like cheque books) with smart cards (like bank cards): https://inews.co.uk/news/post-office-warned-fujitsu-horizon-scandal-2848603 https://inews.co.uk/news/post-office-warned-fujitsu-horizon-... https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmtrdind/530/53002.htm https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmtr... Sure, it was also expected to detect fraud, but overall it was a "modernising" project. The project failed disastrously because ICL were completely incompetent at building an accounting system, the system regularly made huge mistakes, and the incoming government scrapped it. ICL was nonetheless still very chummy with government, as it was concieved of by 1960s British politicians who basically wanted a UK version of IBM because they didn't want Americans being in control of all the UK's computer systems. ICL used to operate mainframes and supply "computer terminals" to government and such, which is why they needed a lot of equipment from Fujitsu, which is why Fujitsu decided to buy them. ICL/Fujitsu still kept the contract to computerize Post Office accounting more generally -- Horizon. Post Offices could literally have pen-and-paper accounting until this! Yes, the project was also meant to look for fraud and shrinkage, but at its heart it was there to modernise, centralise and reduce costs. If only it wasn't written by incompetent morons who keep winning contracts because they're sweet with government.

jen20 1y ago

I suspect there's more to it in than that. I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point. If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujitsu, I believe?) ever get any work again, it will be a travesty of justice.

slim 1y ago
what's the mistake of fujitsu here ? we all know how software is made and that bugs happen and if nobody reports them they never get fixed
jordanb 1y ago
Yes at some point it turned into CYA. When the leadership started realizing that there were problems with the software they started doubling down, getting even more aggressive with prosecutions, because they were trying to hide their own fuckups. But when the ball started rolling, as the software rolled out and was finding missing funds everywhere, you'd think a normal person would have asked "are we sure there are no bugs here?" That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors.
- dylan604 1y ago
  > That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors. That has to be the most egregious confirmation bias I've heard about.
Maxious 1y ago
I regret to inform you that not only is Fujitsu not banned from UK government work, they're not even banned from continuing the same project https://www.publictechnology.net/2025/03/17/business-and-industry/horizon-post-office-to-spend-75m-on-one-year-extension-to-2026/ https://www.publictechnology.net/2025/03/17/business-and-ind...

XTXinverseXTY 1y ago

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

trollbridge 1y ago
People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes. And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.
- wiether 1y ago
  > And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job. That's the same _class_ element that OP was talking about, no? I guess most of the people on HN don't see issue with people going into debt to get a degree, which is supposed to get them a job. So how is it different to people going into debt to buy a franchise? It's even a more straightforward way to actually get a job, while a degree, if it goes out of fashion on the job market, would have absolutely no use, and you'll have to flip the same burgers as the lad with no degree and no student debt.
- HPsquared 1y ago
  It's not much different from going into debt to get a degree to get a job. Especially if your chosen field has only a single employer. In fact the college degree is often more speculative and risky, and a worse deal.
- rwmj 1y ago
  Running a pub is a time-honoured way to lose money in the UK. They're essentially scams to steer the life savings of the working class into the accounts of large breweries. Edit: A timely news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8llxmnx7o https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8llxmnx7o
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
deleted 1y ago

ionwake 1y ago

I found this comment insightful but I feel I must itirate ( maybe its not needed), that it is not "clear" if leadership were ignorant, as you said, ( though Im sure you are part right ), I have read that it was malicious leadership trying to protect their own asses as per another comment.

jordanb 1y ago
I don't mean to let the leadership off the hook. What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands. There were two phases though: the initial rollout, and sometime later the coverup. If they had asked very reasonable questions about the software during the rollout there would have been no need for a coverup. No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post offices had missing funds and if they were sure if it was real or not. The PO leadership basically ignored all evidence that there were bugs from the very beginning, and that makes no sense until you realize that they were starting from the premise that the postmasters are thieves and this software is going to catch them.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- shkkmo 1y ago
  > No software rolls out without any bugs and it's really reasonable to ask why so many post offices had missing funds and if they were sure if it was real or not. It would be reasonable, but that also assumes the ass-covering started post rollout rather than pre rollout.
- I_dream_of_Geni 1y ago
  >What they did was profoundly wrong and they have blood on their hands.< This, so much this. Not ONLY that but they kept DOUBLING DOWN for YEARS. I SO SO wish they would be held accountable for the pain, suffering, Chapter 11's, AND the suicides.
  - flerchin 1y ago

LightBug1 1y ago

Interesting insight. Thanks.

duxup 1y ago

These kinds of assumptions about fraud always make me wonder about the folks in charge. I was at a company acquired by silicon valley company. Our tech support department was folded into another tech support department. Immediately the folks in the valley were upset that we closed more cases / had far higher customer satisfaction scores ... by far. They made no secret that they assumed that us mid-westerners doing the same job had to be inferior at the same job. Eventually a pool of managers in the valley developed a full blown conspiracy theory that we were cooking the books by making fake cases and so on. It just had to be that right? No other explanation. They finally got someone in an outside department to look into it. They found folks closing cases prematurely and even duplicating cases. The people doing it all worked for the managers pointing fingers at everyone else ... Sometimes the folks who talk about fraud think those things because that's how they work.

partdavid 1y ago
Accusations are often confessions.

njovin 1y ago

So the PO creates a franchise program that they later decide isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor, and instead of revising the terms of the franchise program to make it so, they assume that the participants are criminals and prosecute them?

blitzar 1y ago
sociopathic lack of empathy basically
flir 1y ago
I see you've worked with a moribund bureaucracy before.
LiquidSky 1y ago
> isn't suitable for any sane, good-faith actor I think this is the parent’s point: this is the POV of the rich and powerful who lead the organization. They can’t imagine someone in a different position seeing these franchises as a way to secure good (or at least decent), long-term, stable employment.
lawlessone 1y ago
The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101
- citizenpaul 1y ago
  There is a rather famous book written on this subject. Catch-22. In order to be given disability you must jump through so many hoops that no one whom is actually sick could complete them. Or how in unemployment you must prove you must spend your time proving you are looking for a job so you cannot spend you time actually looking for a job. My personal fav because its almost universal is sick-day policies that codify 100% abuse of sick days because people are punished for not using them because some people were "abusing" their sick days. In the case of the book to be discharged from military service they must prove they are insane which no insane person could complete.

forinti 1y ago

That's interesting. I read a lot about this case, but I don't recall anything along these lines. This does explain why the leadership was so stubborn.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

sarreph 1y ago

This is a salient observation that I don’t think has been presented bluntly enough by the media or popular culture (such as Mr Bates Vs The Post Office). The UK is class-obsessed, which is not as immediately clear to the rest of the world (especially US). Lends a lot of credence to your theory.

klik99 1y ago
As a cultural mutt between US and UK, I think UK is "class-aware" and US is more obsessed with the idea that if we all wear jeans then class isn't a thing. I see the same class contempt in US as the UK, and not recognizing it for what it is keeps people divided.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- sarreph 1y ago
  I agree that contempt arises in both cultures. My point about the UK was more around the phenomenon that the class "obsession" stems from the notion that somebody's class in the UK is ostensibly immutable from birth. (It is my impression that class in the US is much more about money; your status and class can be correlated / increased by your level of wealth). In the UK it doesn't really matter if you become a millionaire or billionaire, you still won't be able to perforate the perception of "where you came from". This leads to all kinds of baseless biases such as OP's observation / point.
  - comprev 1y ago
    From my experience living most of my life in the UK from birth there is an element of truth to class being immutable - being directly linked to money and the status of property ownership - for now anyway. The Thatcher years created an opportunity for working class (who traditionally lived in rent controlled properties due to low income) to purchase their houses for pennies on the dollar. Suddenly, millions of families felt they had moved up a class. They were no longer at the mercy of landlords and had moved up in society from a tenant to an owner. The traditional three tiers of lower, middle and upper class changed to lower, lower-middle, upper-middle and upper. From my observations the lower-middle class are still adjusting not to having money but rather _access_ to money previously denied. Having equity in a property as a guarantee of a loan opens up a world previously off limits by the banks. A bit like when someone turns 18 and they have access to credit cards - lots of cash easily available! I come from a family where (with the exception of a mortgage), if you can't pay for something in cash (and still have plenty in reserve), you can't afford it. My folks were very proud of raising a family with zero debts (minus the mortgage), and I'm forever thankful. The families I knew (and by extension others living on the typical "cookie cutter" UK housing estate) were swimming in debt. What surprised me the most was how "normal" it was - 3yr (or less) car on the drive; massive flatscreen TVs (in 2007); multiple cruise holidays per year; flying off to a warm destination mid-winter. Many of them said when they were younger they never experienced such things and told stories of growing up in near poverty. Going into debt for holidays and having a new car on the drive was normalised. These were nurses, postmen, truck drivers, retail staff, hospitality etc. all traditional working class jobs with low salary expectations. They were trying desperately to _appear_ like they were middle class at whatever cost. I'm of the belief it will still take a few generations before the wave of lower-middle class learn that it's not about having a new car on the drive but rather having that cash in the bank as savings - and a significantly cheaper (& older) car on the drive. And yet the UK school system doesn't teach pupils about sensible financial matters - we all rely on our parents to guide us - so escaping the "buy it now on credit" mentality will be easier said that done!

klik99 1y ago

Someone brought this up in a previous HN comment section as an example of trust in software ruining peoples lives. But your explanation is far more human and recontextualizes it a bit for me - it just happened to be that this was done with software, but the real motivation was contempt for the lower classes and could have easily have happened 100 years ago with an internal investigation task force. Growing up half in England and US I feel British culture is more attuned to the class aspects to this kind of event. Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist (think of, people on welfare angry at welfare queens, unaware they will be affected by legislation they support).

sm00thbr41n 1y ago
[flagged]
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  >libs think Please don’t bring that nonsense here
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    Fascinating watching the vote count on this slide up and down even when the other comment isn’t viewable
  - sm00thbr41n 1y ago
    [dead]
AceJohnny2 1y ago
> Traditionally America likes to pretend this kind of class contempt doesn't exist It just manifests as racism.
- bigstrat2003 1y ago
  Most claims of racism in America are in fact classism. Very, very few people have actual dislike of others based on race. But a whole lot of people dislike people due to culture or class signals.

pipes 1y ago

I've been following this since the guardian wrote about it, maybe 2011 or 2013 (private eye was earlier) It was insane. I couldn't understand the lack of fuss. Maybe it is because as a programmer I guess that 95 percent of all software is complete shit and most of the developers don't know or don't care. You've hit the nail on the head "why would anyone want a middle class life" yeah they have never known anything less than that. The other factor to me is the careerism, all that matters is the project success, who cares if the riff raff end up committing suicide. Honestly listening to some of the tapes of those meetings makes me feel sick. Thing is, I think so many career orientated people I know wouldn't even consider that what went on in the meetings was beyond the pale. It's black mirror level. I'm from Ireland, but I live on "mainland Britain" the UK class system is mind boggling. I think the establishment here despises the "great unwashed". God help any working class person who ends up in the courts system. One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells I don't know why that makes this all worse but some how it does. Somehow it speaks to what the UK is or has become. I doubt she'll get the prison time she deserves. Actually I doubt she'll serve any time at all.

boppo1 1y ago
Where can I listen to these tapes, particularly the ones you describe as black-mirror level?
- pipes 1y ago
  For a while the YouTube algorithm was suggesting clips of them to me. I think it was from a British newspaper.
hermitcrab 1y ago
>One final thing, Paula Vennells was an ordained church minister. She was preaching while she was overseeing the destruction of so many innocent hardworking people. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_Vennells She was very nearly parachuted in a Bishop of London, off the 'success' of her term in the post office: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67923190 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-67923190

dimal 1y ago

Interesting how supposed fraud from lower class people is a high priority that must be punished, but fraud from upper class people is almost always protected by the corporate veil.

wuming2 1y ago
I came to realize spending few minutes every so many years to cast a vote in between the purchase of that great massage gun and groceries shopping, for party members who have been extensively vetted and not by you, doesn’t entitle to any control. Democracy is simply the most successful strategy to make believe into fairness and reduce costs of exercising power. With the capability to excise taxes and leverage them into debt that will always be repaid, one way or another, until the last citizen breathes government is, and always was, the greatest business of all times. Corporations who invest at every level, all the time, to make a buck do buy control. Mostly proportional to their investments into the wheels of government.
m101 1y ago
Let's not even talk about the financial crisis
- downrightmike 1y ago
  We solved that by printing money and bailing everyone out, they didn't even have to promise not to do it again, such good chaps.

Kinrany 1y ago

How good or bad of a decision was it in reality? E.g. what was the real salary on top of what one would earn from investing in index?

thom 1y ago

The purpose of a system is what it does.

jstanley 1y ago
Conversely, https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpose-of https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/come-on-obviously-the-purpo...
DoctorOetker 1y ago
There once was grafitti in my city which read something like: "Every system creates, the bullshit it deserves"