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Plastic bag bans and fees reduce harmful bag litter on shorelines

• curtisszmania 1y ago
  [dead]
• cubefox 1y ago
  Plastic doesn't actually necessarily end up in the ocean. Most plastic in the ocean comes from certain countries, like the Philippines, while other countries contribute basically not at all. The problem here is mainly the law and law enforcement in certain countries which fail to prevent dumping plastic in the sea. But that's not an overly hard thing to prevent, because many countries are doing it successfully.
• Padriac 1y ago
  In Australia we never had plastic bags on our beaches or plastics straws on the ground. Now we have to buy paper bags at the shop and use dodgy paper straws. The developed world is trying to fix a non problem that actually exists elsewhere.
• Padriac 1y ago
  After the ban on plastic shopping bags in Australia I bought a box of 3000 of them online for rubbish bin liners. I use 2 or 3 a week.
• eth0up 1y ago
  Driving OTR semi trucks has been 90+ percent of my exposure to the US. While out west, I'd take every opportunity to restock my berth amenities. Being from Florida, I'd never imagined paying for a plastic bag in the process. I found it a feeble but amiable concept. I'd not be disappointed if my state adopted the practice. I've always been awkwardly before my time, and seldom redeemed. As a teen, I vituperated against recycling, suggesting a drastic overhaul of the system altogether, for high frequency low volume consumer product containers. Milk, big gulps, H2O, rice, whatever -- it should all be purchased through brilliantly designed, stalwartly sanitary vending systems in a world where we have heirloom water bottles and shopping bags from granpa, made to last and used for ages. That hasn't happened. I do my part though. This includes occasional confrontation. One example is what I've coined the Beer Birka. I sometimes purchase a single beer. While the degree of fervor on the clerk's behalf varies from indifferent to mortal combat, there is a bizarre assumption that the beer must enter a bag, for if not, some unspoken terror is imminent. In some cases, depending on the jurisdiction and endemic insanity thereof, the beverage must accordingly be veiled. In other territories, it's optional, but questioning is discouraged. There have been many occasions where I exerted eloquent dissent and rational resistance. Again, depending on the coordinates of terrain, reactions range from politely insistent to bellicose. I often remark that I'll accept the bag, just to spare the beverage from the inevitable beating implied, which would almost certainly affect the opening ritual upon arriving home, suds on the countertop and so on. Lost beer. I'm not a nudist, but most tinned products shouldn't excite a healthy person to the point of violence or moral crisis. And for fucks sake, there's a sufficient amount of plastic out there already. So why crusade for more? Just relax, and let people buy shit without invoking unsolicited waste. Back off, you deranged bastards! I'll take the bag and deposit it in back of the facility for you to retrieve after work. I'm willing to compromise. The petroplasticidal matryoshka paradigm extrudes far beyond though. Anyone east of the Mississippi has been asked, indirectly or point blank," do you want a bag for your bag, sir/ma'am?”. I often accept, because the difference between their religious artifact and the dwindling roll under my sink permits approximately equal utility, and so, a pile of dog shit or something else fits in just fine, for free.
• crtified 1y ago
  I support the bans, but I can't help one targeted cynical note : the now-banned plastic bags from retail checkouts, which many consumers typically kept and used as bin liners (or storage), have arguably been replaced 1:1 in a lot of households by versions that the consumer now simply purchases themselves in retail rolls of 50-100, right there on the shelves of those very same stores.
• deleted 1y ago
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• mykowebhn 1y ago
  I know these types of comments are frowned upon here, but I find it really sad that posts about video game sales, for example, have many more upvotes than a post about positive efforts to reduce plastic waste. It shows where priorities and interests lie for the majority. I comment like this because I understand that the struggle is not only to stop this kind of waste--and on a larger scale the environmental destruction of our planet--but also to engage and motivate the public at large to want to make these changes.
  • jay_kyburz 1y ago
    I think it might be because this is a tech / start-up forum and not for all topics. Some of the most important issues facing us right now are simply not allowed and moderated before we even get to vote.
  • Ray20 1y ago
    This "struggle" leads to the erosion of institutions, their discrediting, and will end with the fact that in 50 years anyone who mentions ecology will be looked at in much the same way as Jehovah's Witnesses are now looked at. We wear plastic, we walk on plastic, we build and decorate with plastic, we drive with plastic. Fighting plastic bags is like fighting matches because forests are cut down for them, they emit CO2 when they burn, and they can start a forest fire. The only reason people tolerate with this is because they are dumb morons on average. But even dumb morons can't be fooled forever - and when society realize the extent of the lies and uselessness they've been fed with, good luck telling them even one thing about ecology, even if it's critically important, because they still remain dumb morons, only with zero trust in the ecology. So yes, definitely a good strategy to put the future of humanity and the existence of our environment at stake for tiny short-term political gains.
    • mykowebhn 1y ago
      You make some good points, but then what is one to do? I'm hearing from you that short-term efforts, especially ones with political aims, are, at best, misguided and, at worst, capable of exacerbating the ecological problems they are trying to solve. Do you see anything we can do right now to help save our environment? Also, are there any long-term things we could do that you'd recommend?
• userbinator 1y ago
  "Let's ban everything that could be remotely harmful" is the way to further rampant authoritarianism, not that we aren't already on that path...
  • padjo 1y ago
    What about “let’s ban things with demonstrated negative impacts and reasonable alternatives”? Or should we just sacrifice everything on the alter of vaguely defined “freedom”?
    • userbinator 1y ago
      "reasonable alternatives"? Look how well paper straws work... and they're still coated in thin film of plastic anyway. Total stupidity, except for those who are making $$$ from convincing us that they're somehow better. Plastic bags fulfill a need for a very lightweight, flexible, waterproof container. The alternatives all require more energy overall, which eventually results in CO2 emissions, so if you believe in climate change, that's not good either. The only argument I've heard against them is "they look bad littered everywhere", which is a purely subjective opinion and one that is better handled, should one want to tackle the problem, by other means than depriving the majority who doesn't litter.
      • padjo 1y ago
        My country switched to reusable bags almost 25 years ago by introducing a levy on their use. Plastic bag litter has basically been eliminated by this change. I don’t know what alternative you have in mind but the research and experience is there to say levies work to reduce litter. I’ve been using the same bags for about 20 years and they will probably last until I die. The alternative would be around 20,000 disposable bags. I have a hard time believing the lifecycle cost of my 3 bags is higher.
        • tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
          By one of the 7 metrics analyzed, the lifecycle use of 3 organic cotton bags would have been considered higher by the Danish study (https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-73-4.pdf https://www2.mst.dk/udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...), but that's obviously the most extreme example and not representative. I also think that you reusing the same bags for 20 years and never forgetting them is an extreme example and not representative, and when you're at the cashier and realize you forgot your bags, the only realistic option if single use bags have been regulated away is buying another reusable-but-will-see-a-single-use bag. I have a drawer full of those, and I think I've already thrown one bag full of those out during my last move. More importantly, the annoyance from this and dissolving paper straws has made me swear to never vote for a "green" party that pushes these performative bans (plastic bag litter has never been a major problem in my area), even though I would agree with many of their other policies, both social and environmental. But I'm not going to vote for someone who will go out of their way to add annoyances to my life.
• unlimit 1y ago
  I am all for complete and absolute ban on plastic bags.
  • yvklxrcv 1y ago
    I think plastic bags, like most things in life is more nuanced than is or isn't bad. We should look at the whole lifecycle costs and usage patterns of not only the bag itself, but it's effects on the people using them. Does a type of alternative make it hard to carry them by foot or by bike? It could be worse if a bag promotes car usage I've seen some people start using those durable big bags as disposable ones instead of basic plastics in many areas where normal bags weren't available, causing potentially over a hundred times more energy to be consumed and thrown away, the opposite of what was wanted
    • InsideOutSanta 1y ago
      I think one issue with these plastic bags is that they're very light and not attached to anything. So, even if they end up in a landfill, they can still get blown away and end up in a body of water. A plastic bag that is used as a garbage bag, on the other hand, will remain where it is because its contents weigh it down. I'm not sure how to solve this, though. Perhaps standardizing the size of these bags to make them easily usable as garbage bags, and then marking them to indicate reuse, would be helpful.
    • i80and 1y ago
      Counter-anecdote, my county banned disposable plastic bags some years back, effectively ending the former plague of feral plastic bags flapping in the wind everywhere, but I basically never see people buying the cheap bags by the checkout counter. People really did adapt by bringing their own bags. (I live in suburb hell -- unfortunately, I'm probably the only person who walks to the grocery store, so car use is unaffected)
      • johnisgood 1y ago
        > People really did adapt by bringing their own bags. Maybe it is just my family, but in Eastern Europe, my family and some people do the same. We have re-usable bags that are not made out of plastic, but fabric, and we re-use them every time we shop. The reason for this is that bags are too expensive for what they are, so we do not continue re-buying them due to their high costs. No ban in place from what I know.
• keybored 1y ago
  They investigated plastic bags specifically and found that plastic bag litter specifically went down (according to reading before the Conclusion). Yeah why? Because you get the choice to take a plastic bag with you or not at the checkout. That’s why. That’s you choice. You have much less (just indirect) choice when it comes to how much plastic the stuff you buy is wrapped in. But wait. That’s a lot of it. Even most apparently cardboard wrapping makes me second guess if there is a microfilm of plastic over it. So we have to hyperfocus on this type of plastic. The one that is the consumer’s choice. And plastic straws of course. Even less of a choice is commercial fishing equipment being dumped in the ocean. Or things being dumped from other commercial activities. They got data from citizen-scientists from plastic cleanup. Were those volunteers?[1] If so, plastic pollution propaganda is so important that the important work of plastic cleanup is given to concerned citizens as a bleeding heart hazing ritual. Is that how serious we are about the issue? The nearest small sports arena is made of synthetic grass which is pellets of plastic. But that’s fine. Plastic bags. [1] Or that might just be a stereotype by me
• culebron21 1y ago
  I wonder if plastic bottles are charged/taxed anywhere? Because I bet they're #2 if not #1 in pollution. And straws, oh yes. I noticed after covid they're in individual packaging!
  • keybored 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container-deposit_legislation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container-deposit_legislation > Because I bet they're #2 if not #1 in pollution. Why?
    • culebron21 1y ago
      That's my guess. Wherever I go outside of cities, I see plastic bottles, bags and other wrapping of sweets, candies, cigarettes, etc.
      • codingbot3000 1y ago
        I never get why people will drop plastic garbage somewhere in nature or just at the roadside. I always associate it with the Alaska Highway in Snow Crash, don't know why :-D
        • kgwgk 1y ago
          Because you’ve not visited Sicily.
  • tgsovlerkhgsel 1y ago
    Many places have mandatory deposits on them, ranging from ineffective (California - you pay 5 or 10 cents but there is no practical way to redeem it so it's just an extra tax and there's no extra incentive to dispose of it properly) to very effective (Germany, 25 Eurocents, IIRC any shop that sells drinks in PET bottles has to accept returns of PET bottles). The German system has interesting side effects: If you litter, a homeless person will soon pick it up, making this double as an additional social system with a built-in needs test. However, a downside is that if you know you won't be returning it, it's actually cheaper to buy and trash a reusable bottle because the deposit on a reusable beer bottle is 8 cents, vs. 25 cents on a can. The production cost for the bottle is around 35 cents I think. The deposit was introduced as a punitive measure for the industry for failing to keep the percentage of drinks sold in reusable bottles high enough. As soon as the barrier was broken and the threat/incentive gone, glass bottles almost disappeared for anything except beer (and maybe some mineral water). Even with one of the main benefits (easy disposal) removed - since you can't crush the bottles before returning them and have to drag them back to a store - they are much more popular than glass because unless you go shopping with a car (uncommon in cities in Germany), having to carry twice as much weight (and then drag the heavy packaging back) matters.
• ofalkaed 1y ago
  As someone who lives on the beach and lived on the beach since before these bans, plastic bags never seemed much of an issue and the real issue is that most people who visit the beach think nothing of leaving their garbage on the beach. Before the ban people tended to leave their garbage nicely contained in a plastic bag, now everyone just leaves it strewn about because they don't want to put garbage in their reusable bags that they use for their groceries which also would mean they would have to deal with the garbage instead of "forgetting" their plastic bag of garbage. The worst is the massive increase in sodden diapers, no one has a disposable bag for the diapers so they just leave them on the beach. The garbage bags and plastic bag that wash up on the beach are insignificant compared to the garbage beach goers leave on the beach and people who don't live on the beach don't realize how much garbage that is because those of us who do live on the beach spoil our morning stroll and swim with picking up the garbage so the beach can be clean and ready to be spoiled all over again.
  • Swenrekcah 1y ago
    If this is the behaviour of people in a community, it seems absolutely necessary to institute top-down rules on which materials are permissible and which not. That is to say, the problem here lies mainly with the attitudes and behaviour of people in this community than with specific policies.
    • bradfa 1y ago
      I suspect it’s mostly tourists leaving the garbage. People usually don’t literally trash the places they frequent. Tourists don’t follow rules.
      • Swenrekcah 1y ago
        Well, that depends very much on the tourist and their own community culture. Although I understand your point, it is easier to be selfish outside one’s community.
        • deleted 1y ago
• thinkingemote 1y ago
  The majority of plastic on beaches comes from the sea, not the land. Most of it comes not from people using the beach for recreation but from shipping, fishing, industry and also arrives washed down from rivers and via drainage and sewage. Needless to say of course there is lots added by people using the beach too but its worth looking at the whole picture. https://www.mcsuk.org/ocean-emergency/ocean-pollution/plastics/ https://www.mcsuk.org/ocean-emergency/ocean-pollution/plasti...
• hedora 1y ago
  The study finds that plastic bags as a fraction of the waste on beaches increased in all areas, so that’s bad. A more concerning issue is the nature of the bags being thrown away. California banned “single use” plastic bags (which we used to reuse as trash bags for the bathroom or whatever) but lets you buy “reusable” ones for a few cents at the checkout counter. The reusable ones are much heavier and contain 10-100x more plastic, and take even longer to biodegrade. The study counts “items”, not weight, and reports a 25-47% decrease. Assuming California is the region that hit 47% (call it 50%), and the reusable bags are better than the best available (only 10x worse than pre-ban) that translates to a 5x increase in microplastics on the beach. I’d consider this a disaster, not a win. This matches older studies, which measured total plastic content of landfill waste before and after plastic bag bans like California’s. Those showed sharp increases in plastic waste too. The studies in question were in places that did not allow the reusable plastic ones that California forced the stores to switch to. Instead, the authors found that people switched from using the disposable bags as trash bags to using kitchen trash bags, which are ~100x worse. If only 1% of households were using disposable shopping bags for trash, and no one reused the new style bags, then the policies ended up breaking even. In practice, the policies increased total plastic waste, despite being better thought out than California’s newer ban. I’m all for banning plastic bags, but the current bans target the most efficient use of plastic, increasing overall plastic production and waste. The bans should only target things that have plastic-free alternatives, or at least that have less plastic intensive alternatives.
  • dawnerd 1y ago
    I used the old style plastic bags as trash bags. I use the new thicker ones as trash bags (cat litter). All the law did was increase how much plastic ends up in the landfill. They should have required paper. Oregon did the same dumb thing. Portland has paper bags everywhere. Then they required charging for bags and everyone switched to plastic.
    • Tagbert 1y ago
      Paper bags are a pain. The stores that push paper have paper bags with no handles. It makes carrying more than one bag very clumsy. I tend to avoid the stores around here that only have paper.
• b0a04gl 1y ago
  counting bags instead of measuring total plastic weight is peak policy theater. yeah fewer bags on beaches looks good in a chart, but if each one's 50x thicker now, congrats you just upgraded the pollution class without fixing the problem. are we're optimizing for optics again. where's the data on mass per capita per disposal cycle?
  • anigbrowl 1y ago
    You have a point but it's also kinda flawed. The marginal cost to pick up a thick plastic bag is the same as that of a thin one - perhaps even a bit less as it is less likely to tear and disintegrate, and more likely to either be reusable or return some of its stored energy if burnt. So if there are only half as many bags to pick up, the cost of mitigation goes down proportionally.
• deleted 1y ago
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• yboris 1y ago
  And the biggest contribution to plastic in the oceans is fishing nets. We all ought to do our part and buy less fish.
• drakonka 1y ago
  Purely anecdotally, when plastic bags in my country started costing 5-ish SEK I switched to fabric reusables (which I already had lying around from conventions and stuff) almost immediately. In the uncommon case where I don't have one handy I go for the 3 SEK paper bag. I think I now buy maybe 2-3 plastic bags a year in some rare instance where one of the other options isn't practical.
• jekwoooooe 1y ago
  And instead we kill a lot more trees and plants to make expensive cotton or polyester bags that are much worse for the environment as a whole. It’s typical left leaning feel good logic instead of actually improving something. Not to mention the inconvenience
  • rexpop 1y ago
    Cotton bags are not "much worse for the possibility environment". They only need to be used 131 times to beat out 131 plastic bags. That's three years of weekly groceries. I plan to shop much longer than three years. Closer to 30.
    • jekwoooooe 1y ago
      You expect people to keep these bags for 3 years? No way
      • anigbrowl 1y ago
        Troll somewhere else
        • jekwoooooe 1y ago
          I’m not trolling I care about the environment. Cotton bags are just a form of moral licensing and predatory ways to get more income. Same with plastic straws.
      • anticorporate 1y ago
        Most of my cotton shopping bags are 15+ years old and still going strong. The cheap plastic-based fiber ones have not held up nearly as well.