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> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older pers
by bambax 1y ago
> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.)
I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name.
Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not the case anymore.
- allendoerfer 1y agoCultural imperialism.
- myst 1y agoThe meaning was never there in the first place, you just were taught that it is there. Adapt.
- benediktwerner 1y agoInteresting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet. Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.
- mytailorisrich 1y agoIt's quite common, even the norm these days, to address people by their first names in professional settings, among colleagues. The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European countries, I suppose. Now, I think when people address you by your surname only, either orally or in writing, it is irritating.
- ncruces 1y agoWell, I personally find title + surname the worst; it's obnoxious and elitist; my (first) name isn't "engineer". I can live with it, though. I just kinda hate people who demand it of others. So, clearly, you can't please everybody.
- mytailorisrich 1y agoBy title I mean "Mister", etc. Perhaps "Engineer" is a German thing ;)
- ncruces 1y agoAnd then you must know (if this is a system: store) the person's preferred gender, and in some cultures marital status.
- fmbb 1y agoNot all European countries. We phased the title and surname addressing out during the 70s here in Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen Personally I get annoyed only if a sales person addresses me by first name. There is no other setting where I would prefer a stranger to address me using my full name, unless we’re in some context where there are dozens or hundreds of strangers so one can not expect my name is unique.
- bryanhogan 1y agoI appreciate that too at my former university in Germany, it's kinda "very modern" and people always use their first names for everything, professors and students alike. But it gets complicated when emailing professors that are only losely related to the uni.
- gniv 1y agoWhen I moved to the US it was a cultural shock to have people call me by my first name. But I got used to it quickly and now everything else seems awkward, especially since my last name is hard to pronounce.
- johngossman 1y agoThese things come and go across times and cultures. Even in the United States, which many people think of as highly informal, it was once common to refer to almost everyone outside the family formally. My grandmother talked to her next door neighbor everyday and they said "Hello, Mrs. G-" and "How are you, Mrs. S-". You also see this in 19th century American and English literature ("Mr. Darcy")
- dustincoates 1y agoAt least when I was growing up, it was still the norm in the South/Texas. My parents would have never referred to the elderly in our neighborhood by their first names.
- yurishimo 1y agoI also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role. Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this extended into Scouts as well. For anyone I don't know, I tend to just say "sir/ma'am" (employee at the grocery store for example) unless. If the person has a professional title that I know of, I will use the title (Dr. Martin, Professor Lake, etc). My parents I suppose were very similar. Sir/Ma'am for most interactions, but I don't recall hearing a Mr/Mrs/Ms when they referenced other people in our lives. Since I've moved to Europe a few years back, I'm trying to follow the local customs more, which at first glance seem very similar (Netherlands). Formal for strangers, informal for basically everyone else. I've tried using the formal with some older neighbours and they always tell me stop immediately!
- dustincoates 1y ago> Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role. That brings up an actually interesting exception. At my church, the pastors were the only adults we'd ever call by their first name, sort of. Our pastor, for example, was always Brother Mike, not Pastor <Last Name>.
- anthk 1y agoSpaniard here; addressing someone by the last name looks really outdated.
- whstl 1y agoSame. The only situation where I call people by their last name in my language is when it's their nickname. Like there were two "Johns" so we call the second one "Smith".
- blargthorwars 1y agoAs a tourist, it's a cheat code to be hyper formal. Gets you instant goodwill.
- agubelu 1y agoSpanish has actually three levels of formality when addressing someone by name: <First name>: Informal, casual conversation. Don <First name>: More formal, conveys respect while still indicating some closeness. Señor <Last name>: Most formal, normally used in writing. Using only someone's last name is just plain weird. If you want to speak formally to someone just address them as "usted", it will get you the same goodwill without sounding off.
- anthk 1y agoDon it's very outdated unless you address a very important person.
- agubelu 1y agoI agree it's more likely to be used by older generations but it's not uncommon to hear it around either, especially when addressing or refering to elders
- anthk 1y agoWell, corporation addressing clients would use señor/señora but between older/middle aged men. For anyone under 40 it looks a bit old-fashioned. They would just switch to an 'usted/ustedes' person (formal you/yall, for HN speakers) and no one will feel like they were in 1960. And even with that, people under 35 will just stay at the informal (normal you) "tu" case.
- pbhjpbhj 1y agoHas tutoiement changed too? How does that work with machines, do they always use vous form?
- benhurmarcel 1y agoTypically machines/websites should use "vous", but it is more and more common to read "tu", depending on the target audience and the company marketing.
- andruby 1y agoAnd with french you also have Tu vs Vous. I am almost at the halfway point of my life expectancy, and I do actually prefer people using my first name over my last name.
- makeitdouble 1y agoWould addressing you by your mail address work ? Handling people's name is I think the bane of our field, and leads to many of the awful choices like forcing fields with a first and last name for instance, or requesting people's gender to properly set the Mr and Mrs. As a dev I'm not happy about it, as a user I hate it, I'm not sure the majority of people are happy either with the current state of things. Accepting that it's a machine sending the mail could simplify all of this quite a bit, provided people are fine by being addressed in an impersonal and inorganic way.
- miki123211 1y agoIf you mean snail mail address, no it wouldn't. It's common to share these between people who have the same last (or sometimes first) names. Things get really fun when it's. both, e.g. a man marrying somebody who has the same first name as their sister. This actually happened in my (distant) family. If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no. People sometimes sign up from addresses like contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super confusing. The "right thing to do" is to have a "what should we call you" field, which should be completely separate from any names collected for legal purposes, if any.
- makeitdouble 1y ago> If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no. People sometimes sign up from addresses like contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super confusing. I was going for the principle that we're not trying to mimic human emotions when it's a mail to remind you to accept the latest TOS. So, no "Dear", no trying to come up with something socially acceptable, just plain "miki123211@hn.xx, please review our newest Terms and Services at https://....../ https://....../...." The "what should we call you" field sounds attractive, but would be ripe for abuse IMHO. Not on technical terms, but users would definitely play with it to have you send "Mrs DeepshitFuckHorse please confirm your email at...." to random addresses for instance, or any other vector that we're not thinking about right now.
- lipowitz 1y ago
- make3 1y agoI feel like tu vs vous is extra annoying in French when you're speaking to someone who's not a stranger. I have no desire to judge if you think you're too famous of eg a professor for me to say tu, your success doesn't create a hierarchy between us, and it's annoying if you think so. I much prefer English for that.
- kaptainscarlet 1y agoGiving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger people are unable to hold older folks accountable.
- sensanaty 1y agoEveryone in Yugoslavia was called "Drug" (pronounced droog, Friend), it'd be hard to claim it wasn't autocratic. Same with the USSR and China.
- lukan 1y agoIn its extreme shapes maybe, but just paying respect to the elders for having lived much longer and seen so much more, is something that should be normal in my opinion.
- miki123211 1y agoIt used to be a lot more reasonable back in the day. When the world didn't change as quickly, or didn't change at all, the elders truly knew everything the young ones knew, and so much more. They had truly seen everything and had plenty of experience with the problems young people were struggling with. This very much isn't the case any more. I'm in my twenties (technically part of gen Z), but I already feel like I don't understand the Tiktok-using, trap-loving part of my generation. The 14-18 year olds probably have very different issues now than I did at that age, and that wasn't even so long ago. People from my parents' generation are out of the loop completely, their world still revolves around linear TV, college as a path for success in life etc.
- OhMeadhbh 1y agoI try to get people to avoid my first name, mostly because they can't pronounce it. The only time I had a stranger pronounce it right was when we were meeting w/ the Republic of Ireland tech transfer office.
- IAmBroom 1y agoO, Mev!
- wazoox 1y agoAh yes, the worst is Discord who always says "tu", who are you? do I know you? Did we herd geese together at some point :D ?
- chromehearts 1y agoVery interesting! I work for (probably) the most well known German company. Here, it's always advised to use the first name & the 2nd person singular pronoun ("du"; you) instead of the more formal third person plural pronoun ("Sie"; you) Company standards differ and every time you meet someone new, say in a Teams-Meeting, the older person generally offers you to use "Du". You may or may not accept it It's basically "respecting your elders" While I (21 years of age) talk with my boss on this personal level, I can't get myself to address other older (higher ranked) employees by their first name. Saying Mr. or Mrs. is kinda required for me as the person I am, because I always try to respect them. (This doesn't apply to some other older (higher ranked) employees, those with which I don't have much to work with. While I do respect them, it's not the same type of respect I have for them) This may sound very confusing and it even is for me, as I am not German and merely adapt to what is the cultural standard here. My culture we address everyone by their first name. The only thing we must absolutely add are the social prefixes for older folks (typically above a 5 year range? depends on some factors.) I could never address, mention or talk about uncle / aunt XYZ as just XYZ. It's very crucial to always add that, especially for people you know. If you don't know them, just say the preferred prefix as well, it shows a basic level of respect We don't really use our surnames - it's more to identify, who exactly we are talking about. For example, when talking about "Michael", but the involved in the conversation don't know who we're talking about we usually just say "from the house of surname" (house of is the literal translation)
- rayiner 1y agoI spent almost 10 years trying to avoid calling my mother and father in law by their first names. In my home country's language there are words for "mother in law" and "father in law" you can use in a second person context, but English doesn't have any. My wife has the opposite problem. She's gotten stuck calling my parents "Mr. XYZ" and "Mrs. XYZ."
- beAbU 1y agoMy inlaws are addressed "mom" and "dad" - is that weird?
- wccrawford 1y agoI've decided that in English, every way to address your inlaws is weird until you settle on something specifically with them. "Mom" and "Dad" or "John" and "Jane", both will be weird until you've used them for a while. And if they don't like what you picked, you'll know pretty quick.
- dctoedt 1y agoMumble years ago I started using "Mom" and "Dad" as soon as we got married; my wife did the same with my folks — and my folks did the same with my grandparents.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- rayiner 1y agoIt’s somehow both too familiar and overly deferential. Vis-a-vis my wife’s parents, I’m not a child, but an adult, though of less seniority.
- fragmede 1y agowe've all seen https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-..., yeah?
- mensetmanusman 1y agoNow that I know that every culture approaches this differently, it takes zero effort to not be annoyed when someone does something different than what I expect.
- youngNed 1y ago^^^ what this cunt said
- somanyphotons 1y agofound the australian
- youngNed 1y agoIrish, we're basically proto-austalis
- semanticist 1y agoWith 'ned' in the username I might've thought Glaswegian. :D
- DiggyJohnson 1y agoYour comments boggles me. You understand their point and immediately misapply that understanding.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- joshdavham 1y agoI never truly understood linguistic formality until I was teaching a class and one of the students addressed me as “Josh”. My full name is “Joshua” and students virtually always used to call me that, but that semester, the computer system put my name as “Josh” and it felt weirdly disrespectful when a student called me that even though I know none was intended.
- dzhiurgis 1y agoI'm Lithuanian but lived over 15 years (near half my lifetime) in UK and NZ. I love the informality and my brain struggles a bit when I speak Lithuanian, esp when I know I should be using formal addressing, but I'm not sure I want to.
- orthecreedence 1y ago"I don't want to be your buddy, Rick. I just want a little breakfast."
- malloryerik 1y agoIn Korean, you can never address someone older by their first name. Yes not even your blood brother or sister.
- sensanaty 1y agoIt's interesting for me as I'm Serbian but grew up in Indonesia. In Serbian we very much have honorifics (I think honorifics is the wrong word, not sure what the correct one is) and rules like "Younger always addresses the older with vi instead of ti, and vama instead of tebi etc. unless you're relatives or are close", but it also applies generally for strangers, so even if you're the same age or even if you're older, it's more polite to use the formal forms. In Indonesia nobody really cares too much, and I called my teachers everything from "Ibu X" (Ibu meaning ma'am/miss, but also mother) to their first names or a mixture like "Ibu FirstOrLastName". At best you'll get a "bapak/ibu" which is basically just sir/ma'am, but I've been called "kak" (lit. translated it's something like "little sister/brother", it's a very asian concept and a lot of cultures have the same, like oniichan). I always struggle when I go back to Serbia, 'cause I wasn't really brought up with the importance of honorifics. It feels weird when I get a kid using honorifics with me, feels like I'm 60 (I'm in my 20s), and likewise people look at me like I just spat in their face if I don't use the honorifics sometimes. Language is truly fascinating!
- pyman 1y agoI live in Montevideo, here people use "usted" (the formal "you" in Spanish) to show respect to older people. But there's no strict rule about when to switch from "tu" (informal you) to "usted". So you kind of guess based on how old someone looks. The problem is, if you say "usted" to someone who doesn't see themselves as old, they might take offence. So, trying to be polite in Uruguay can backfire if your mental age calculation is off!