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If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? There are a lot of systems in place

If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? There are a lot of systems in place to verify working status at this point. It eliminates any incentive to hire this cheaper labor willing to work for lower wages. The people coming will be coming for a variety of reasons but it won't be to take the jobs of the uneducated Americans

seanmcdirmid 1y ago
This is what Canada mostly does and it’s super effective, the problem is that the people who employ illegal immigrants: farmers, construction contractors, hotel owners, etc…belong to the same party pushing against illegal immigration, they would basically be punishing themselves, so it isn’t going to happen.
- Symmetry 1y ago
  I think the real reason is that Trump feels that the illegal immigration issue generates votes for him so actually solving it is the last thing he wants to do.
  - lazide 1y ago
    This has been true of every major policy ‘lock in’ topic for both parties for at least a decade, if not more. Gun control, abortion, immigration (legal and illegal), taxation/gov’t spending, affirmative action (aka DEI), etc. Trump is really good at pushing buttons and generating outrage though. Not unexpected for a reality TV show star.
    - larrled 1y ago
      It’s sad how addicted people are to his button pushing. I’ve got an elderly family member with dementia who can’t go more than 2 hours without watching a outrage video about Trump. You know the ones on YouTube, still doing hourly updates on russiagate and other “legal analysis” around Trump prosecutions, still. She lost much of her life savings because these YouTube “experts” explained how Trump would crash the market when in actuality, from 2016 to today, the market has actually gone up. A lot. Thanks medias touch or whoever it is for destroying the sanity and financial security of so many American seniors. What a business model.
      - lostlogin 1y ago
        > She lost much of her life savings because these YouTube “experts” explained how Trump would crash the market when in actuality, from 2016 to today, the market has actually gone up. A lot. How did the market going up lose her money? The loss of potential gains?
        lazide 1y ago
        If you read the comment carefully, it sounds like she sold early and put into things like CDs which lost money to inflation.
  - InsideOutSanta 1y ago
    I'm not sure it even matters if there is an actual problem, as long as there is a perception of a problem in his voters.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  Doesn't post-pandemic Canada have the highest rate of legal immigration in years since government gives out immigration visas like candy? I can't see how this is good in a country that already has a stagnating economy and a housing crisis. You're eroding the bargaining power of local labor and increasing competition for housing in an already tight market.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
    They were slow to let off the gas pedal after the labour shortages during COVID. There's been a massive swing in the other direction now.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      What kind of labor shortages are we talking about? Isn't "muh labor shortage" just corporate propaganda for importing more cheap labor to drive down wages and increase rents? Also, isn't it completely reckless to import a lot more people in a short timespan, without the necessary housing and infrastructure (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc) to support them in the first place?
      - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
        Small businesses were having a hard time staffing stores and the like. For a short period 2021 to maybe early 2023. It's definitely not the case now. Unemployment is way up. Which I suspect is a combination of factors (slowing economy & tariffs) not just immigration. But yes, Canadian governments work for employers, not workers. Just like any other advanced capitalist country. There is an expectation that there's a "natural" unemployment rate in this country around 6%, and they freak out if it goes much lower than that. In general, when regular people are complaining about inflation they're complaining about their groceries. When you hear businesses and governments concerned about inflation .. they mean they're stressed out because minimum wage employees are demanding some basic respect that employers feel they shouldn't have to provide...
- pwarner 1y ago
  Exactly The aggressive raids aren't in Florida or Texas, or even California farm county, they're targeting urban areas, and getting the intended headlines.
  - sam345 1y ago
    Not true.. they are doing the raids elsewhere including Texas. Florida cracked down on the state level on businessrs a year ago so not as much of a problem as far as I understand.
    - mcculley 1y ago
      Florida has not cracked down. The E-Verify mandate is limited to companies of 25 or more employees and is not enforced. DeSantis will never oppose the criminal businesses profiting from illegal labor.
      - nothercastle 1y ago
        E verify is the real crackdown. Everything else is just show
        mcculley 1y ago
        When they mandate E-Verify universally and enforce it, we will know that they are serious. Until then, it is just a sham to keep Democrats and Trumpers distracted.
      - lotsofpulp 1y ago
        Immigration is a federal government problem. Why would a start “crack” down on something not in its jurisdiction?
        mcculley 1y ago
        The Tenth Amendment and Chamber of Commerce v. Whiting give states the power to enforce work eligibility laws.
Gigachad 1y ago
Because this is more about a display of force than actually solving a problem.
xivzgrev 1y ago
Shh! We can’t do that! You’d piss off the republican donors. Not to mention the American public when their grocery bill significantly increases. No, it’s much better to go harass people who aren’t in republican circles. Us vs them. Round up some illegals, make some examples, stick it to the democrats (who loosened the borders and are complicit). Trump is strong, and finally cracking down on all of this illegal nonsense, hoo rah!! It’s all theater, that’s what Trump is - a darn good showman. Some illegals will get deported, eventually some of his core will see him as the thug he is. We just need to ensure democrats have a viable candidate lined up…ideally a white southern man. Clearly the push to elect a woman isn’t working at this time - we’ve tried it twice and Americans vote Trump instead.
- jeffreygoesto 1y ago
  This. And two santas.
- netfortius 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - pjc50 1y ago
    .. what does Stalin have to do with this?
    - netfortius 1y ago
      The argument about pro-Russian "votes" in Eastern Europe, post-WWII, was caused by Stalin sending and/or supporting his people, in the occupied territories. The US had no such problem - no one invaded to forcibly place Trump there.
- delfinom 1y ago
  Don't worry, I'm sure they'll run Newsom for president this time.
King-Aaron 1y ago
They want a reason to remove the current Californian government, as well as manufacturing a reason to enact emergency powers which can 'help' Trump push for a third term. They have been discussing this since before the election.
- ta1243 1y ago
  Trump is hardly a bastion of health, you think he'll still be around when he's 82?
  - ben_w 1y ago
    A better question is, does he think he'll still be around? I mean, this is a guy who put out a press release about his own health where everyone could tell he was lying because it included his own height and they just found pictures of him standing next to other people who were supposed to be the same height or shorter.
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      Well, let's not forget writing his own "medical assessment" for his doctor to sign off. With gems like "I can confidently state that Donald Trump will be the most healthy and strong man to ever take the Presidency"... not to mention "positive findings on every test" (uhhh, a positive finding on any medical test is an abnormality, Donnie).
  - int_19h 1y ago
    Seeing how the online MAGA meme squads love WH40K so much, I'd imagine there's always the Golden Throne option. ~
gamblor956 1y ago
The e-verify system has been in place since 1996, and does exactly that: verify legal status of workers. It's required for federal contractors, but only about half of states require its use (it used to be more but some states like CA have actually passed laws banning its use).
- ty6853 1y ago
  It verifies the legal status of the documents submitted. Does little beyond encouraging identity theft of USCs that end up with unexpected tax liabilities.
  - kimixa 1y ago
    But the estimated number of "illegal" workers is so much larger than the number of people whose identity is stolen on tax returns each year I'd suggest that the issue isn't so much with the tools already available, so much at people aren't using those tools. Even if we had a perfect e-verify system that magically guaranteed the result was accurate, it probably wouldn't make a difference. Not while it's use is "optional" in states like Texas.
    - vel0city 1y ago
      The fact Republicans in Texas harp on about illegal migration but don't do the most basic thing to reduce illegal labor supporting illegal migration really shows its more about having someone to hate than actually working to solve the problem.
  - rangestransform 1y ago
    Making illegal immigrants commit another crime gives an excuse to try them and deport them
- b33j0r 1y ago
  I worked for a company that verified I9’s and provided an eVerify integration for employers. I can’t explain what problem it solved. It was a multi-million dollar if-statement that copied the expertise of the relevant law into a permanently legacy expert system. Doing anything besides that would be illegal. But that also means there is no cross-referencing or vendor enforcement of fraud. It did things like check if some tax-related status code was valid for the indicated home country of emigration. It didn’t do things like check against a national database for an SSN. It basically punished people for filling out forms incorrectly or not being able to scan a document. We didn’t get new regulations every quarter or ever. I dunno what the point was. Edit: the everify step technically used personally identifiable information to contact a national database. I guess my gripe is that I didn’t see how it could prevent fraud in any way a normal HR person wouldn’t have caught if it were to be caught. It’s a duplication of a process everyone was already doing.
ExoticPearTree 1y ago
LA is actively supporting illegal immigrants. If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it.
- DidYaWipe 1y ago
  What is "this" and how do you define "work?" And if illegals are such a problem, why do the Republicans toady up to the corporations that perpetuate and profit from it?
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it Doing the arrests? Sure. Intimidating protesters for partisan messaging while desecrating the honour of our armed forces? No.
  - ExoticPearTree 1y ago
    They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests. That is why the National Guard had to step it, because local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests The only "they" doing arrests are ICE and the LAPD. The California National Guard isn't arresting anyone to my knowledge. > local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals Source? For literally any of this sentence.
      - chasd00 1y ago
        I won’t google it for you. It there’s multiple video evidence readily available.
jaoane 1y ago
[flagged]
- hackyhacky 1y ago
  First, the word you are looking for is "disingenuous." Second, I disagree. It's important to disincentivize both the supply and demand. Right now, employers of illegal immigrants suffer no negative consequences when caught... so they keep in doing it. Which means that these mass deportations are purely performative, and the next wave of immigrants will get the same jobs.
- venj 1y ago
  Many countries do it, with random controls such as statistics checks (like revenue vs employees count, compared to similar businesses) and random visits. This does not eliminate illegal labor completely but significantly reduces it.
- Qwertious 1y ago
  How is it being illegal relevant? Everything cops arrest people for is (theoretically) illegal. If you're implying that employers of illegal immigration are hard to find, it's really not. Any farmer who receives subsidies (which is most of them) has to submit all sorts of paper trails, and if they have both no employees and no fancy farm-automation equipment, then it's pretty easy to check if they have illegal immigrants. Hell, a single surveillance drone during harvest season could do 90% of your work. Work you're already doing if you're looking for illegal immigrants. "Gee I have no idea why a bunch of illegal immigrants harvested all my fruit for free", yeah pull the other one.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    >and if they have both no employees and no fancy farm-automation equipment, then it's pretty easy to check if they have illegal immigrants. That's not how it works in practice. They use someone else's SSN and proper withholdings so nobody's the wiser unless the owner of the SSN being used both gets audited and has some portion of their income bumped into another bracket, which is rare.
motorest 1y ago
> If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? The Nazis leveraged hatred towards minorities as a wedge to force their totalitarian control over Germany's state and society. They built up a ficticious enemy within, they inflamed society against that enemy, and proceeded to promise they would eliminate that enemy if the were granted total control over everyone and everything. It's no coincidence that Trump is targeting California to fabricate a crisis and rapidly escalate the issue he created himself, specially how he forced the unjustified and illegal deployment of national guard and the armed forces. The goal is clearly not illegal aliens standing next to Home Depots. The goal is to force a scenario where loyalists in the armed forces target any opposition. It's no coincidence Trump has been threatening the governor of California with prison for the crime of "running for elections" at the time he's announcing deploying armed forces in California without authorization or legal standing and against the will of the governor of California.
- timewizard 1y ago
  > they inflamed society against that enemy They blamed them for pre-existing social problems. I feel the important context was that the government had to be significantly dysfunctional for the Nazi party to even exist.
  - 4ggr0 1y ago
    Would you describe the US government as functional?
    - sigwinch 1y ago
      So far, comparisons with routine life in Weimar Germany are a contortion.
      - lostlogin 1y ago
        There is an enemy, there are raids on civilians and due process has been abandoned. The military are now being used for police work, and the police are behaving like the military. This mob are creeping towards KristallMethNacht.
kubb 1y ago
The Republican party is incentivized both to have illegal immigration, and to fight against illegal immigration. They act accordingly to those incentives.
- lazide 1y ago
  Cheap workers that are also under constant threat of getting deported (and have no real legal recourse because of it) are awfully convenient for many business models.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  I guess the Democratic party is only incentivize to have illegal immigration? Although there might be incentive to fight against it at least for votes next time around, this issue lost the election (a non-dementia version of Biden would’ve recognized this, but his family loved the power so they kept him in)
  - kubb 1y ago
    The Democrats have similar incentives (see Biden’s admin’s actions, esp. deportation numbers), but they don’t use the anti immigrant rhetoric and don’t do the ICE raids for show because they also have the progressive, moderate and educated voters, and possibly also have scruples. They sometimes say that they want less illegal and more legal immigration. Biden’s dementia isn’t an explanation here, that’s really mostly just political ammo.
1oooqooq 1y ago
crackdown on immigration is exactly to allow business to profit from informal and legal immigration. it's so widely know im unsure if you're really oblivious or being sarcastic. sorry.
jonplackett 1y ago
Because they don’t really care. It’s just about creating divisions in society to keep people voting for people that do everything against their interests.
- matt-attack 1y ago
  Or maybe they just got tired of millions of immigrants flaunting the law and overburdening the system? We had unprecedented levels of illegal immigration over the last four years. Do you think it went unnoticed and didn’t adversely affect anyone? Why jump to these conspiracy notions about division and blatantly ignore the simplest and most obvious explanation.
  - newdee 1y ago
    Both can be true
  - troyvit 1y ago
    Honest question, because I don't see it here in Colorado: Who has it adversely affected? Crime rates among illegal immigrants are lower than the rest of the population [1] [2] [3] and illegal immigrants are the backbone of our agricultural system [4] So ... who is hurt and how badly are they hurt? Because when I see the amount of perfectly legal murder, robbery and torture happening in the U.S. [5] [6] [7] [8] I just don't understand what the big deal is. I guess it's whataboutism, but when we have limited resources, why are we using them for this specific problem? How bad is it compared to this other stuff? [1] https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o... (the feds took it down -- gee I wonder why -- but the facts are in the permalink) [2] https://www.cato.org/blog/white-houses-misleading-error-ridden-narrative-immigrants-crime https://www.cato.org/blog/white-houses-misleading-error-ridd... [3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/ [4] https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor#legalstatus https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor#lega... [5] https://www.techtarget.com/revcyclemanagement/feature/Breaking-down-claim-denial-rates-by-healthcare-payer https://www.techtarget.com/revcyclemanagement/feature/Breaki... [6] https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeiture-rakes-in-billions-each-year-does-not-fight-crime-2/ https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeitu... [7] https://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/27/whistleblower-exposes-torture-and-child-abuse-profit-prison https://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/27/whistleblower-e... [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#United_States
bigbacaloa 1y ago
[dead]
nielsbot 1y ago
they’re also rounding up legal asylum seekers.
trilbyglens 1y ago
Because the system is designed to allow these people in a gray zone, so they do not have access to the same rights as citizens and therefore can be exploited. The problem is not illegal immigration. It's just a political football. Our economy would fily collapse without this cheap labor to exploit.
- trashtester 1y ago
  It would not collapase. But it would shift some purchaing power from the middle class to the working class if all of them would leave, as working class salaries would go up even faster than the inflatino it would cause.
  - Gareth321 1y ago
    Exactly. It would rebalance the value provided by blue collar work. They could finally demand a higher wage without being undercut by illegal workers.
    - ath3nd 1y ago
      I find it super funny that the average Joe will condemn an "illegal" worker for undercutting another, but never ask themselves the question who employed that "illegal" worker. How come the blame is not solely on the businesses willingly employing thousands of "illegal workers", not paying tax on them nor health benefits, and not even minimum wage, and in that way undercutting the value of blue collar labor?
  - fzeroracer 1y ago
    Our economy absolutely would collapse. Our entire farming industry exists because of heavily abused immigrant labor, and is a job that Americans refuse to take. We've made multiple swings and attempts at getting Americans to do this work [1] but it's low pay, low benefits and grueling work. Farmers literally could not afford the actual salary needed to attract people to do said labor, and it would cause food prices across the US to skyrocket. The only way this would stabilize is if the government came in and subsidized and socialized farm work heavily and that would also never happen. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/wh...
ChiMan 1y ago
The problem with that solution is that it would work too well, making it unattractive to lawmakers who need the issue to maintain their careers.
LastTrain 1y ago
Because a certain party in this country must always have a scapegoat, it isn’t any more complicated than that.
thrawa8387336 1y ago
There would be turbo-inflation
- Thorrez 1y ago
  Why?
  - thinkingtoilet 1y ago
    Because cheap immigrant labor is the backbone of this country in many ways, especially when it comes to harvesting and processing our food supply. They could stop immigration tomorrow if they wanted to. $10,000 per person per day fine to agriculture companies. They don't want to. They are hate-filled people who want the poorest most vulnerable people to suffer. Just like Jesus would have wanted.
    - transcriptase 1y ago
      I find it interesting how the same political crowd that pushes hardest for workers’ rights and higher minimum wages will also turn around and seriously argue that illegal immigrants are needed (to be paid under the table below minimum wage), otherwise food prices would spike.
      - aaronbaugher 1y ago
        It's incoherent, just like the corporate claim that we need moar immigration and moar imports to keep prices down at Walmart, even if that means none of us make enough to buy anything. Both sides have to dress up their real motives, one pretending to care about the immigrant and the other pretending to care about the consumer. Both are lying.
        thinkingtoilet 1y ago
        Yes, the side that is fighting for immigrant rights and due process is lying about caring about immigrants. Excellent point.
FrustratedMonky 1y ago
Yep. That is the real message here. Corporations are the ones that hire immigrants, to pay less. And Corporations are the ones that off shore manufacturing, to pay less to foreign workers. But lets blame the workers, for working?
Georgelemental 1y ago
Because that would require Congress to do something useful
lemoncookiechip 1y ago
Because this isn't about that. This is about having a perceived enemy that only you can fight. If it wasn't immigrants (legal or illegal), it would be a different group, within or outside of your borders. It's fascism 101.
- typeofhuman 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Larrikin 1y ago
    That's because of racism for two hundred years that made it so there was only one gym for the kids in that area. If it's a true story. Your comment history reads like conservative talking points fabricated by someone pretending to be black or pretending to care about black people. Specifically not like a black conservative.
    - nothercastle 1y ago
      Op is describing very real cost shifting that happens. Certain corporations get large benefits from migrant workers but they are human and have to live somewhere so the cost of housing and feeding them gets shifted to adjacent communities. These adjacent communities get hit twice because migrant labor also decreases salaries for locals. People who are in the high earning buckets benefit from the cheaper wages and abundant work force for construction, landscaping maid services.
      - righthand 1y ago
        [flagged]
      - nathan_compton 1y ago
        Op should blame the people in the high earning bucket. It is ridiculous to blame the poor migrant workers in this situation - its not like they are living high on the hog. They are, by your description, victims as well, employed only because they can be treated more poorly than local people.
ourmandave 1y ago
Back in 2019 during Trump 1.0, ICE raided 7 chicken processing plants in Mississippi and arrested 100s of workers. They charges 4 low level managers with aiding illegal immigrants. But I don't think the companies had to pay any fines or any owners face charges.
peppers-ghost 1y ago
Because that would be anti-business. Illegal immigration is only a problem when you need to wind up the right wingers about something.
major505 1y ago
There are consequences for business owners, but because of complicity of govermnet in this states, it still worth the risk to run big operation on the back of illegal imigrants in semi servitude status.
andsoitis 1y ago
> If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? Why do you assume that that doesn’t happen? - Chicago (2014) https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/chicago-area-company-fined-more-300000-hiring-illegal-workers https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/chicago-area-company-fined... - Texas (2012) https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/2-companies-admit-hiring-illegal-aliens-each-forfeit-2-million https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/2-companies-admit-hiring-i... - Colorado (2025) https://www.cpr.org/2025/04/30/ice-fines-colorado-janitorial-companies-unauthorized-workers/ https://www.cpr.org/2025/04/30/ice-fines-colorado-janitorial... etc.
- vel0city 1y ago
  These actions are rare. And the fines are more slaps on the wrist instead of any real action. ACSI fined $2M for the same amount paid as wages to illegal labor. How much profit did they make from that? Sounds more like the cost of doing business than any real crushing fine. Put the management of these companies in prison for ~~knowingly~~ recklessly hiring illegal labor. Make it likely they will be audited and caught. Make it easier to get a work permit That will solve a lot of illegal migration.
  - andsoitis 1y ago
    > Make it easier to get a work permit Also for tech jobs like software engineering? Or only for manual labor?
    - vel0city 1y ago
      With the rise of remote work I think US software devs need to adapt to the global cost of software development sooner than later. This current structure of immigration status being tied and sponsored to your current employer is pretty messed up though. It does a lot to artificially drive down wages even more, these people aren't free to choose where they work.
- csomar 1y ago
  > Why do you assume that that doesn’t happen? You just provide proof of why it doesn't happen in the very first link. 300k fine for 604 illegal for a repeat offender. That's essentially saying: The cost to hire illegals is too small not to do it.
JCattheATM 1y ago
> If illegal immigration is such a problem, It isn't remotely the problem or even in the same galaxy as needing this type of response. The cause for the actions is racism. The protests are due to calling out racism and removing due process. Anything else is denial or sophistry, that's the simple truth.
- matt-attack 1y ago
  So all counties with strong border policies are racist? That’s preposterous. Australia has some of the strictest border policies (drastically more strict than us). Do you believe they’re just racist policies too?
  - 613style 1y ago
    I believe that those who justify cruelty with rhetoric and spread hate will one day look into the mirror and be horrified at what they see.
    - throwaway894345 1y ago
      I wish I shared your optimism.
  - catlifeonmars 1y ago
    > So all counties with strong border policies are racist? That’s preposterous. Your response is a straw man. Be better. FWIW I don’t agree with OP in that there isn’t a single cause, but racism definitely plays a role.
    - tejohnso 1y ago
      Doesn't seem like a straw man to me. It's an extension of the unsupported claim that the cause for the action is racism. False equivalence perhaps. But I think the problem is that "The cause for the action is racism" doesn't actually contain an argument at all. It's just an unfounded opinion. And then "Anything else is denial" shows a myopic, closed minded viewpoint, suggesting any further discussion would be pointless. As is most internet chatter on this type of matter.
matt-attack 1y ago
[flagged]
- riskable 1y ago
  Asylum seekers come to the US to literally escape torture and death. It's not like they're searching for the best freebies. They're looking for someplace safe to live. Once they get into the US they don't just live off of social services. What the US provides isn't nearly enough for that. So they end up working, their kids go to school, and those kids eventually have children who are US citizens. That's literally the concept that the United States of America was founded upon (after the genocide of the natives). That's the entire intent behind the US Constitution. By letting people come to the US and stay in the US we're following the founding fathers playbook. It's the founding principal of the nation. That's how things are supposed to work.
  - jjk7 1y ago
    Less than half of the asylum seekers have valid claim. Saying "Asylum _seekers_ come to the US to literally escape torture and death" is disingenuous.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
alxfoster 1y ago
Lets separate headlines from reality here: Yes this is an unnecessary provocation with loads of emotionally charged elements (and federalizing California's National Guard in this context is certainly concerning for multiple reasons -considering the scale of the protests and violence ) BUT there is no sign that Active Duty military personnel are being deployed to engage civilians (yet). It would seem most likely that the Marines were called strictly to protect federal buildings, facilities and agents. The problem I see is the latter category. I am personally fine with National Guard being used to protect people and infrastructure when appropriate and when confined to federal facilities, and I'm even fine with the use of military to protect federal facilities... however, the second active duty military engages civilians 'on the streets' we have martial law and that's a whole new can o worms with explosive possibilities for escalation.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > BUT there is no sign that Active Duty military personnel are being deployed to engage civilians (yet). Yes, there is. > It would seem most likely that the Marines were called strictly to protect federal buildings, facilities and agents. So, to engage civilians deemed a threat to federal buildings, facilities, and agents. The distinction you are trying to draw does not exist, and is simply a very weak attempt to craft a mission that can be argued not to be using the military as a posse comitatus (even though it clearly is exactly that) for the sole purpose of reserving invoking the Insurrection Act until the aggressive use of federal forces has been successful in provoking a suitably dramatic incident.
amluto 1y ago
Even a fine is absurd. There are straightforward technological solutions that might even generally decrease costs of employing people. For example, imagine that there was a special kind of money transfer called “payment for labor”: the payer would send the payee $X (via their bank), and the bank would automatically verify the immigration status of the payee, generate the correct tax records, and withhold the correct amount of money and send the withheld money to the IRS. With some sensible regulation on top, this could automatically handle unemployment, etc. Then businesses or even individuals could hire someone for an hour, a day or a year and pay them with no friction. And the check for eligibility would be automatic. Fees could be driven to very low levels by the fact that there is no creativity whatsoever in actually implementing the transfer. But there’s a showstopping problem here: the US economy, especially agriculture, is highly dependent on employing people illegally. So a real solution to controlling illegal employment would also require the kind of immigration reform that actually allows useful immigration, and it would require a competently run nation database of employment eligibility, and good luck getting bipartisan consensus on that.
- Aloisius 1y ago
  The H-2A temporary agricultural worker visa is uncapped. It is entirely possible to hire all the migrant agricultural workers one needs using it, but most farms just don't want to pay visa fees, transportation or housing on top of a prevailing wage.
  - amluto 1y ago
    Seems like the H-2A program is too restrictive, then.
trod1234 1y ago
There are many problems but immigration isn't one of them. The employers/government don't do this because the prices of existing goods depend on that cheap labor. Money printing (deficit spending) through the economy has created many chaotic distortions and as a result of currency debasement has pushed the profit margins down close to zero for many businesses concentrating them in few hands. These businesses can continue functioning for a time thanks to money-printer loans they receive in the form of non-reserve based debt to a primary dealer, but that doesn't solve the issue that the price of good inputs and the amount of money that gets circulated through work in the economy is insufficient to purchase basic necessities (its sieving, which often happens before a deflationary collapse). On top of this already floundering problem which we cannot address, we have a demographics problem. The old, infirm, and disabled outnumber the young who work. There is no way forward without replacement as the costs of the old far exceed the young, and the only means to do so is through taxing immigrants who come here to work. On top of this, China wants to go to war to retake Taiwan, and so securing the border is a critical national security interest/threat. Its called a debt trap, any historian can tell you about how this and other behaviors towards empire (hegemony) culminate in destructive cycles. The baby boomers as a cohort largely caused this, and have been orchestrating it in leadership so that the consequences of their choices don't hit until after they die.
paulddraper 1y ago
Romney pushed for E-Verify in his campaign. He lost and it never happened.
msgodel 1y ago
I think most of the voters who want this also want that but the choices are: mass illegal immigration vs mass deportations. People voting in primaries should probably take this into consideration.
- seadan83 1y ago
  False dichotomy. - Recall back to the old republican party of just 20 years ago, GW Bush wanted a guest worker program. - Recall back to just a year and a half ago, a big bill was in congress to drastically ramp up employment laws and increase border funds - funny enough that was rejected. That rejection by the republican party _increased_ illegal immigration - The deportation rate under BOTH Obama and Biden has been higher to date compared to the current (second) Trump administration. So, if you want higher deportation and laws to increase border security - apparently we need to go back to the previous administration... The facts are seemingly all very topsy turvy compared to the narrative.
apwell23 1y ago
I see this comment often. you think tyson foods is paying ppl cash under the table?
johnnyanmac 1y ago
Trump can't implicate himself whie pretending he cares about American labor. Also, I'll keep saying it: the cruelty is the point. And sadly the Stanford experiment shows that people will always oblige over the change to torture others if there's no consequences.
belorn 1y ago
Looking at Sweden and the issue of human trafficking in construction, cleaning and farming, the general problem is that the fine businesses are employing independent contractors from multiple layers of hiring firms, and no one seems very interesting to hold the people who is benefiting from the labor responsible. It is a well know open secret that not only do practically every large construction site employ illegal immigrants, but there is also a tier system for who do what job. The highest risk and longest hours are given to illegal immigrants. The next tier are those that work off the books, and then last we got those that operate legit as there need to be at least a few of those. This setup seemingly works, until there is an accident or the hiring firm suddenly refuse paying the illegal workers and the miserable details of the human slavery becomes news for a day.
braunjohnson 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
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deepsun 1y ago
Why would I fine honest law-abiding willing to work people, who only want to raise our GDP and pay taxes? I saw them, worked with them, so don't tell me they all criminals or lazy. "Legal" or "illegal" is just a label we put on the same person, but person doesn't change. It's non-working lazy criminals we want to push against. Oftentimes those who could get their *ss off the couch and emigrate are the most active.
theshrike79 1y ago
Also why are they chasing down chefs in restaurants and people on Home Depot parking lots. Conspicuously nobody is checking agricultural businesses in red states. Coincidence? Definitely not.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
Yeah, there are systems. The problem is they are only as good as how we establish identity. And so long as identity theft is a widespread problem it's not going to work. Back in the 80s my mother was the victim of what I presume was this. The IRS was determined that she should either pay the taxes "owed" or get "her employer" to amend the W-2. What employer? She hadn't worked for *anybody* and couldn't find the supposed employer. In hindsight I suspect the answer was to file that form to amend the W-2, but this was before the internet so it would have been much harder to get answers.
cmurf 1y ago
Neo-feudalism. Lords are punished for embarrassing the sovereign.

seanmcdirmid 1y ago

This is what Canada mostly does and it’s super effective, the problem is that the people who employ illegal immigrants: farmers, construction contractors, hotel owners, etc…belong to the same party pushing against illegal immigration, they would basically be punishing themselves, so it isn’t going to happen.

Symmetry 1y ago
I think the real reason is that Trump feels that the illegal immigration issue generates votes for him so actually solving it is the last thing he wants to do.
- lazide 1y ago
  This has been true of every major policy ‘lock in’ topic for both parties for at least a decade, if not more. Gun control, abortion, immigration (legal and illegal), taxation/gov’t spending, affirmative action (aka DEI), etc. Trump is really good at pushing buttons and generating outrage though. Not unexpected for a reality TV show star.
  - larrled 1y ago
    It’s sad how addicted people are to his button pushing. I’ve got an elderly family member with dementia who can’t go more than 2 hours without watching a outrage video about Trump. You know the ones on YouTube, still doing hourly updates on russiagate and other “legal analysis” around Trump prosecutions, still. She lost much of her life savings because these YouTube “experts” explained how Trump would crash the market when in actuality, from 2016 to today, the market has actually gone up. A lot. Thanks medias touch or whoever it is for destroying the sanity and financial security of so many American seniors. What a business model.
    - lostlogin 1y ago
      > She lost much of her life savings because these YouTube “experts” explained how Trump would crash the market when in actuality, from 2016 to today, the market has actually gone up. A lot. How did the market going up lose her money? The loss of potential gains?
      - lazide 1y ago
        If you read the comment carefully, it sounds like she sold early and put into things like CDs which lost money to inflation.
- InsideOutSanta 1y ago
  I'm not sure it even matters if there is an actual problem, as long as there is a perception of a problem in his voters.
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Doesn't post-pandemic Canada have the highest rate of legal immigration in years since government gives out immigration visas like candy? I can't see how this is good in a country that already has a stagnating economy and a housing crisis. You're eroding the bargaining power of local labor and increasing competition for housing in an already tight market.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- cmrdporcupine 1y ago
  They were slow to let off the gas pedal after the labour shortages during COVID. There's been a massive swing in the other direction now.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    What kind of labor shortages are we talking about? Isn't "muh labor shortage" just corporate propaganda for importing more cheap labor to drive down wages and increase rents? Also, isn't it completely reckless to import a lot more people in a short timespan, without the necessary housing and infrastructure (doctors, nurses, teachers, etc) to support them in the first place?
    - cmrdporcupine 1y ago
      Small businesses were having a hard time staffing stores and the like. For a short period 2021 to maybe early 2023. It's definitely not the case now. Unemployment is way up. Which I suspect is a combination of factors (slowing economy & tariffs) not just immigration. But yes, Canadian governments work for employers, not workers. Just like any other advanced capitalist country. There is an expectation that there's a "natural" unemployment rate in this country around 6%, and they freak out if it goes much lower than that. In general, when regular people are complaining about inflation they're complaining about their groceries. When you hear businesses and governments concerned about inflation .. they mean they're stressed out because minimum wage employees are demanding some basic respect that employers feel they shouldn't have to provide...
pwarner 1y ago
Exactly The aggressive raids aren't in Florida or Texas, or even California farm county, they're targeting urban areas, and getting the intended headlines.
- sam345 1y ago
  Not true.. they are doing the raids elsewhere including Texas. Florida cracked down on the state level on businessrs a year ago so not as much of a problem as far as I understand.
  - mcculley 1y ago
    Florida has not cracked down. The E-Verify mandate is limited to companies of 25 or more employees and is not enforced. DeSantis will never oppose the criminal businesses profiting from illegal labor.
    - nothercastle 1y ago
      E verify is the real crackdown. Everything else is just show
      - mcculley 1y ago
        When they mandate E-Verify universally and enforce it, we will know that they are serious. Until then, it is just a sham to keep Democrats and Trumpers distracted.
    - lotsofpulp 1y ago
      Immigration is a federal government problem. Why would a start “crack” down on something not in its jurisdiction?
      - mcculley 1y ago
        The Tenth Amendment and Chamber of Commerce v. Whiting give states the power to enforce work eligibility laws.

Gigachad 1y ago

Because this is more about a display of force than actually solving a problem.

xivzgrev 1y ago

Shh! We can’t do that! You’d piss off the republican donors. Not to mention the American public when their grocery bill significantly increases. No, it’s much better to go harass people who aren’t in republican circles. Us vs them. Round up some illegals, make some examples, stick it to the democrats (who loosened the borders and are complicit). Trump is strong, and finally cracking down on all of this illegal nonsense, hoo rah!! It’s all theater, that’s what Trump is - a darn good showman. Some illegals will get deported, eventually some of his core will see him as the thug he is. We just need to ensure democrats have a viable candidate lined up…ideally a white southern man. Clearly the push to elect a woman isn’t working at this time - we’ve tried it twice and Americans vote Trump instead.

jeffreygoesto 1y ago
This. And two santas.
netfortius 1y ago
[flagged]
- pjc50 1y ago
  .. what does Stalin have to do with this?
  - netfortius 1y ago
    The argument about pro-Russian "votes" in Eastern Europe, post-WWII, was caused by Stalin sending and/or supporting his people, in the occupied territories. The US had no such problem - no one invaded to forcibly place Trump there.
delfinom 1y ago
Don't worry, I'm sure they'll run Newsom for president this time.

King-Aaron 1y ago

They want a reason to remove the current Californian government, as well as manufacturing a reason to enact emergency powers which can 'help' Trump push for a third term. They have been discussing this since before the election.

ta1243 1y ago
Trump is hardly a bastion of health, you think he'll still be around when he's 82?
- ben_w 1y ago
  A better question is, does he think he'll still be around? I mean, this is a guy who put out a press release about his own health where everyone could tell he was lying because it included his own height and they just found pictures of him standing next to other people who were supposed to be the same height or shorter.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    Well, let's not forget writing his own "medical assessment" for his doctor to sign off. With gems like "I can confidently state that Donald Trump will be the most healthy and strong man to ever take the Presidency"... not to mention "positive findings on every test" (uhhh, a positive finding on any medical test is an abnormality, Donnie).
- int_19h 1y ago
  Seeing how the online MAGA meme squads love WH40K so much, I'd imagine there's always the Golden Throne option. ~

gamblor956 1y ago

The e-verify system has been in place since 1996, and does exactly that: verify legal status of workers. It's required for federal contractors, but only about half of states require its use (it used to be more but some states like CA have actually passed laws banning its use).

ty6853 1y ago
It verifies the legal status of the documents submitted. Does little beyond encouraging identity theft of USCs that end up with unexpected tax liabilities.
- kimixa 1y ago
  But the estimated number of "illegal" workers is so much larger than the number of people whose identity is stolen on tax returns each year I'd suggest that the issue isn't so much with the tools already available, so much at people aren't using those tools. Even if we had a perfect e-verify system that magically guaranteed the result was accurate, it probably wouldn't make a difference. Not while it's use is "optional" in states like Texas.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    The fact Republicans in Texas harp on about illegal migration but don't do the most basic thing to reduce illegal labor supporting illegal migration really shows its more about having someone to hate than actually working to solve the problem.
- rangestransform 1y ago
  Making illegal immigrants commit another crime gives an excuse to try them and deport them
b33j0r 1y ago
I worked for a company that verified I9’s and provided an eVerify integration for employers. I can’t explain what problem it solved. It was a multi-million dollar if-statement that copied the expertise of the relevant law into a permanently legacy expert system. Doing anything besides that would be illegal. But that also means there is no cross-referencing or vendor enforcement of fraud. It did things like check if some tax-related status code was valid for the indicated home country of emigration. It didn’t do things like check against a national database for an SSN. It basically punished people for filling out forms incorrectly or not being able to scan a document. We didn’t get new regulations every quarter or ever. I dunno what the point was. Edit: the everify step technically used personally identifiable information to contact a national database. I guess my gripe is that I didn’t see how it could prevent fraud in any way a normal HR person wouldn’t have caught if it were to be caught. It’s a duplication of a process everyone was already doing.

ExoticPearTree 1y ago

LA is actively supporting illegal immigrants. If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it.

DidYaWipe 1y ago
What is "this" and how do you define "work?" And if illegals are such a problem, why do the Republicans toady up to the corporations that perpetuate and profit from it?
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> If you want something like this to work, federal agents need to do it Doing the arrests? Sure. Intimidating protesters for partisan messaging while desecrating the honour of our armed forces? No.
- ExoticPearTree 1y ago
  They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests. That is why the National Guard had to step it, because local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals.
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > They are doing arrests and others are trying to block them from doing arrests The only "they" doing arrests are ICE and the LAPD. The California National Guard isn't arresting anyone to my knowledge. > local law enforcement did nothing to protect ICE from the mobs that try to set free illegals Source? For literally any of this sentence.
    - chasd00 1y ago
      I won’t google it for you. It there’s multiple video evidence readily available.

jaoane 1y ago

[flagged]

hackyhacky 1y ago
First, the word you are looking for is "disingenuous." Second, I disagree. It's important to disincentivize both the supply and demand. Right now, employers of illegal immigrants suffer no negative consequences when caught... so they keep in doing it. Which means that these mass deportations are purely performative, and the next wave of immigrants will get the same jobs.
venj 1y ago
Many countries do it, with random controls such as statistics checks (like revenue vs employees count, compared to similar businesses) and random visits. This does not eliminate illegal labor completely but significantly reduces it.
Qwertious 1y ago
How is it being illegal relevant? Everything cops arrest people for is (theoretically) illegal. If you're implying that employers of illegal immigration are hard to find, it's really not. Any farmer who receives subsidies (which is most of them) has to submit all sorts of paper trails, and if they have both no employees and no fancy farm-automation equipment, then it's pretty easy to check if they have illegal immigrants. Hell, a single surveillance drone during harvest season could do 90% of your work. Work you're already doing if you're looking for illegal immigrants. "Gee I have no idea why a bunch of illegal immigrants harvested all my fruit for free", yeah pull the other one.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  >and if they have both no employees and no fancy farm-automation equipment, then it's pretty easy to check if they have illegal immigrants. That's not how it works in practice. They use someone else's SSN and proper withholdings so nobody's the wiser unless the owner of the SSN being used both gets audited and has some portion of their income bumped into another bracket, which is rare.

motorest 1y ago

> If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? The Nazis leveraged hatred towards minorities as a wedge to force their totalitarian control over Germany's state and society. They built up a ficticious enemy within, they inflamed society against that enemy, and proceeded to promise they would eliminate that enemy if the were granted total control over everyone and everything. It's no coincidence that Trump is targeting California to fabricate a crisis and rapidly escalate the issue he created himself, specially how he forced the unjustified and illegal deployment of national guard and the armed forces. The goal is clearly not illegal aliens standing next to Home Depots. The goal is to force a scenario where loyalists in the armed forces target any opposition. It's no coincidence Trump has been threatening the governor of California with prison for the crime of "running for elections" at the time he's announcing deploying armed forces in California without authorization or legal standing and against the will of the governor of California.

timewizard 1y ago
> they inflamed society against that enemy They blamed them for pre-existing social problems. I feel the important context was that the government had to be significantly dysfunctional for the Nazi party to even exist.
- 4ggr0 1y ago
  Would you describe the US government as functional?
  - sigwinch 1y ago
    So far, comparisons with routine life in Weimar Germany are a contortion.
    - lostlogin 1y ago
      There is an enemy, there are raids on civilians and due process has been abandoned. The military are now being used for police work, and the police are behaving like the military. This mob are creeping towards KristallMethNacht.

kubb 1y ago

The Republican party is incentivized both to have illegal immigration, and to fight against illegal immigration. They act accordingly to those incentives.

lazide 1y ago
Cheap workers that are also under constant threat of getting deported (and have no real legal recourse because of it) are awfully convenient for many business models.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
I guess the Democratic party is only incentivize to have illegal immigration? Although there might be incentive to fight against it at least for votes next time around, this issue lost the election (a non-dementia version of Biden would’ve recognized this, but his family loved the power so they kept him in)
- kubb 1y ago
  The Democrats have similar incentives (see Biden’s admin’s actions, esp. deportation numbers), but they don’t use the anti immigrant rhetoric and don’t do the ICE raids for show because they also have the progressive, moderate and educated voters, and possibly also have scruples. They sometimes say that they want less illegal and more legal immigration. Biden’s dementia isn’t an explanation here, that’s really mostly just political ammo.

1oooqooq 1y ago

crackdown on immigration is exactly to allow business to profit from informal and legal immigration. it's so widely know im unsure if you're really oblivious or being sarcastic. sorry.

jonplackett 1y ago

Because they don’t really care. It’s just about creating divisions in society to keep people voting for people that do everything against their interests.

matt-attack 1y ago
Or maybe they just got tired of millions of immigrants flaunting the law and overburdening the system? We had unprecedented levels of illegal immigration over the last four years. Do you think it went unnoticed and didn’t adversely affect anyone? Why jump to these conspiracy notions about division and blatantly ignore the simplest and most obvious explanation.
- newdee 1y ago
  Both can be true
- troyvit 1y ago
  Honest question, because I don't see it here in Colorado: Who has it adversely affected? Crime rates among illegal immigrants are lower than the rest of the population [1] [2] [3] and illegal immigrants are the backbone of our agricultural system [4] So ... who is hurt and how badly are they hurt? Because when I see the amount of perfectly legal murder, robbery and torture happening in the U.S. [5] [6] [7] [8] I just don't understand what the big deal is. I guess it's whataboutism, but when we have limited resources, why are we using them for this specific problem? How bad is it compared to this other stuff? [1] https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-o... (the feds took it down -- gee I wonder why -- but the facts are in the permalink) [2] https://www.cato.org/blog/white-houses-misleading-error-ridden-narrative-immigrants-crime https://www.cato.org/blog/white-houses-misleading-error-ridd... [3] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7768760/ [4] https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor#legalstatus https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor#lega... [5] https://www.techtarget.com/revcyclemanagement/feature/Breaking-down-claim-denial-rates-by-healthcare-payer https://www.techtarget.com/revcyclemanagement/feature/Breaki... [6] https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeiture-rakes-in-billions-each-year-does-not-fight-crime-2/ https://ij.org/press-release/new-report-finds-civil-forfeitu... [7] https://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/27/whistleblower-exposes-torture-and-child-abuse-profit-prison https://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/07/27/whistleblower-e... [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prison#United_States

bigbacaloa 1y ago

[dead]

nielsbot 1y ago

they’re also rounding up legal asylum seekers.

trilbyglens 1y ago

Because the system is designed to allow these people in a gray zone, so they do not have access to the same rights as citizens and therefore can be exploited. The problem is not illegal immigration. It's just a political football. Our economy would fily collapse without this cheap labor to exploit.

trashtester 1y ago
It would not collapase. But it would shift some purchaing power from the middle class to the working class if all of them would leave, as working class salaries would go up even faster than the inflatino it would cause.
- Gareth321 1y ago
  Exactly. It would rebalance the value provided by blue collar work. They could finally demand a higher wage without being undercut by illegal workers.
  - ath3nd 1y ago
    I find it super funny that the average Joe will condemn an "illegal" worker for undercutting another, but never ask themselves the question who employed that "illegal" worker. How come the blame is not solely on the businesses willingly employing thousands of "illegal workers", not paying tax on them nor health benefits, and not even minimum wage, and in that way undercutting the value of blue collar labor?
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  Our economy absolutely would collapse. Our entire farming industry exists because of heavily abused immigrant labor, and is a job that Americans refuse to take. We've made multiple swings and attempts at getting Americans to do this work [1] but it's low pay, low benefits and grueling work. Farmers literally could not afford the actual salary needed to attract people to do said labor, and it would cause food prices across the US to skyrocket. The only way this would stabilize is if the government came in and subsidized and socialized farm work heavily and that would also never happen. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/wh...

ChiMan 1y ago

The problem with that solution is that it would work too well, making it unattractive to lawmakers who need the issue to maintain their careers.

LastTrain 1y ago

Because a certain party in this country must always have a scapegoat, it isn’t any more complicated than that.

thrawa8387336 1y ago

There would be turbo-inflation

Thorrez 1y ago
Why?
- thinkingtoilet 1y ago
  Because cheap immigrant labor is the backbone of this country in many ways, especially when it comes to harvesting and processing our food supply. They could stop immigration tomorrow if they wanted to. $10,000 per person per day fine to agriculture companies. They don't want to. They are hate-filled people who want the poorest most vulnerable people to suffer. Just like Jesus would have wanted.
  - transcriptase 1y ago
    I find it interesting how the same political crowd that pushes hardest for workers’ rights and higher minimum wages will also turn around and seriously argue that illegal immigrants are needed (to be paid under the table below minimum wage), otherwise food prices would spike.
    - aaronbaugher 1y ago
      It's incoherent, just like the corporate claim that we need moar immigration and moar imports to keep prices down at Walmart, even if that means none of us make enough to buy anything. Both sides have to dress up their real motives, one pretending to care about the immigrant and the other pretending to care about the consumer. Both are lying.
      - thinkingtoilet 1y ago
        Yes, the side that is fighting for immigrant rights and due process is lying about caring about immigrants. Excellent point.

FrustratedMonky 1y ago

Yep. That is the real message here. Corporations are the ones that hire immigrants, to pay less. And Corporations are the ones that off shore manufacturing, to pay less to foreign workers. But lets blame the workers, for working?

Georgelemental 1y ago

Because that would require Congress to do something useful

lemoncookiechip 1y ago

Because this isn't about that. This is about having a perceived enemy that only you can fight. If it wasn't immigrants (legal or illegal), it would be a different group, within or outside of your borders. It's fascism 101.

typeofhuman 1y ago
[flagged]
- Larrikin 1y ago
  That's because of racism for two hundred years that made it so there was only one gym for the kids in that area. If it's a true story. Your comment history reads like conservative talking points fabricated by someone pretending to be black or pretending to care about black people. Specifically not like a black conservative.
  - nothercastle 1y ago
    Op is describing very real cost shifting that happens. Certain corporations get large benefits from migrant workers but they are human and have to live somewhere so the cost of housing and feeding them gets shifted to adjacent communities. These adjacent communities get hit twice because migrant labor also decreases salaries for locals. People who are in the high earning buckets benefit from the cheaper wages and abundant work force for construction, landscaping maid services.
    - righthand 1y ago
      [flagged]
    - nathan_compton 1y ago
      Op should blame the people in the high earning bucket. It is ridiculous to blame the poor migrant workers in this situation - its not like they are living high on the hog. They are, by your description, victims as well, employed only because they can be treated more poorly than local people.

ourmandave 1y ago

Back in 2019 during Trump 1.0, ICE raided 7 chicken processing plants in Mississippi and arrested 100s of workers. They charges 4 low level managers with aiding illegal immigrants. But I don't think the companies had to pay any fines or any owners face charges.

peppers-ghost 1y ago

Because that would be anti-business. Illegal immigration is only a problem when you need to wind up the right wingers about something.

major505 1y ago

There are consequences for business owners, but because of complicity of govermnet in this states, it still worth the risk to run big operation on the back of illegal imigrants in semi servitude status.

andsoitis 1y ago

> If illegal immigration is such a problem, why not fine businesses 5x salary for using the labor, for as long as it was used? Why do you assume that that doesn’t happen? - Chicago (2014) https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/chicago-area-company-fined-more-300000-hiring-illegal-workers https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/chicago-area-company-fined... - Texas (2012) https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/2-companies-admit-hiring-illegal-aliens-each-forfeit-2-million https://www.ice.gov/news/releases/2-companies-admit-hiring-i... - Colorado (2025) https://www.cpr.org/2025/04/30/ice-fines-colorado-janitorial-companies-unauthorized-workers/ https://www.cpr.org/2025/04/30/ice-fines-colorado-janitorial... etc.

vel0city 1y ago
These actions are rare. And the fines are more slaps on the wrist instead of any real action. ACSI fined $2M for the same amount paid as wages to illegal labor. How much profit did they make from that? Sounds more like the cost of doing business than any real crushing fine. Put the management of these companies in prison for ~~knowingly~~ recklessly hiring illegal labor. Make it likely they will be audited and caught. Make it easier to get a work permit That will solve a lot of illegal migration.
- andsoitis 1y ago
  > Make it easier to get a work permit Also for tech jobs like software engineering? Or only for manual labor?
  - vel0city 1y ago
    With the rise of remote work I think US software devs need to adapt to the global cost of software development sooner than later. This current structure of immigration status being tied and sponsored to your current employer is pretty messed up though. It does a lot to artificially drive down wages even more, these people aren't free to choose where they work.
csomar 1y ago
> Why do you assume that that doesn’t happen? You just provide proof of why it doesn't happen in the very first link. 300k fine for 604 illegal for a repeat offender. That's essentially saying: The cost to hire illegals is too small not to do it.

JCattheATM 1y ago

> If illegal immigration is such a problem, It isn't remotely the problem or even in the same galaxy as needing this type of response. The cause for the actions is racism. The protests are due to calling out racism and removing due process. Anything else is denial or sophistry, that's the simple truth.

matt-attack 1y ago
So all counties with strong border policies are racist? That’s preposterous. Australia has some of the strictest border policies (drastically more strict than us). Do you believe they’re just racist policies too?
- 613style 1y ago
  I believe that those who justify cruelty with rhetoric and spread hate will one day look into the mirror and be horrified at what they see.
  - throwaway894345 1y ago
    I wish I shared your optimism.
- catlifeonmars 1y ago
  > So all counties with strong border policies are racist? That’s preposterous. Your response is a straw man. Be better. FWIW I don’t agree with OP in that there isn’t a single cause, but racism definitely plays a role.
  - tejohnso 1y ago
    Doesn't seem like a straw man to me. It's an extension of the unsupported claim that the cause for the action is racism. False equivalence perhaps. But I think the problem is that "The cause for the action is racism" doesn't actually contain an argument at all. It's just an unfounded opinion. And then "Anything else is denial" shows a myopic, closed minded viewpoint, suggesting any further discussion would be pointless. As is most internet chatter on this type of matter.

matt-attack 1y ago

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riskable 1y ago
Asylum seekers come to the US to literally escape torture and death. It's not like they're searching for the best freebies. They're looking for someplace safe to live. Once they get into the US they don't just live off of social services. What the US provides isn't nearly enough for that. So they end up working, their kids go to school, and those kids eventually have children who are US citizens. That's literally the concept that the United States of America was founded upon (after the genocide of the natives). That's the entire intent behind the US Constitution. By letting people come to the US and stay in the US we're following the founding fathers playbook. It's the founding principal of the nation. That's how things are supposed to work.
- jjk7 1y ago
  Less than half of the asylum seekers have valid claim. Saying "Asylum _seekers_ come to the US to literally escape torture and death" is disingenuous.

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alxfoster 1y ago

Lets separate headlines from reality here: Yes this is an unnecessary provocation with loads of emotionally charged elements (and federalizing California's National Guard in this context is certainly concerning for multiple reasons -considering the scale of the protests and violence ) BUT there is no sign that Active Duty military personnel are being deployed to engage civilians (yet). It would seem most likely that the Marines were called strictly to protect federal buildings, facilities and agents. The problem I see is the latter category. I am personally fine with National Guard being used to protect people and infrastructure when appropriate and when confined to federal facilities, and I'm even fine with the use of military to protect federal facilities... however, the second active duty military engages civilians 'on the streets' we have martial law and that's a whole new can o worms with explosive possibilities for escalation.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> BUT there is no sign that Active Duty military personnel are being deployed to engage civilians (yet). Yes, there is. > It would seem most likely that the Marines were called strictly to protect federal buildings, facilities and agents. So, to engage civilians deemed a threat to federal buildings, facilities, and agents. The distinction you are trying to draw does not exist, and is simply a very weak attempt to craft a mission that can be argued not to be using the military as a posse comitatus (even though it clearly is exactly that) for the sole purpose of reserving invoking the Insurrection Act until the aggressive use of federal forces has been successful in provoking a suitably dramatic incident.

amluto 1y ago

Even a fine is absurd. There are straightforward technological solutions that might even generally decrease costs of employing people. For example, imagine that there was a special kind of money transfer called “payment for labor”: the payer would send the payee $X (via their bank), and the bank would automatically verify the immigration status of the payee, generate the correct tax records, and withhold the correct amount of money and send the withheld money to the IRS. With some sensible regulation on top, this could automatically handle unemployment, etc. Then businesses or even individuals could hire someone for an hour, a day or a year and pay them with no friction. And the check for eligibility would be automatic. Fees could be driven to very low levels by the fact that there is no creativity whatsoever in actually implementing the transfer. But there’s a showstopping problem here: the US economy, especially agriculture, is highly dependent on employing people illegally. So a real solution to controlling illegal employment would also require the kind of immigration reform that actually allows useful immigration, and it would require a competently run nation database of employment eligibility, and good luck getting bipartisan consensus on that.

Aloisius 1y ago
The H-2A temporary agricultural worker visa is uncapped. It is entirely possible to hire all the migrant agricultural workers one needs using it, but most farms just don't want to pay visa fees, transportation or housing on top of a prevailing wage.
- amluto 1y ago
  Seems like the H-2A program is too restrictive, then.

trod1234 1y ago

There are many problems but immigration isn't one of them. The employers/government don't do this because the prices of existing goods depend on that cheap labor. Money printing (deficit spending) through the economy has created many chaotic distortions and as a result of currency debasement has pushed the profit margins down close to zero for many businesses concentrating them in few hands. These businesses can continue functioning for a time thanks to money-printer loans they receive in the form of non-reserve based debt to a primary dealer, but that doesn't solve the issue that the price of good inputs and the amount of money that gets circulated through work in the economy is insufficient to purchase basic necessities (its sieving, which often happens before a deflationary collapse). On top of this already floundering problem which we cannot address, we have a demographics problem. The old, infirm, and disabled outnumber the young who work. There is no way forward without replacement as the costs of the old far exceed the young, and the only means to do so is through taxing immigrants who come here to work. On top of this, China wants to go to war to retake Taiwan, and so securing the border is a critical national security interest/threat. Its called a debt trap, any historian can tell you about how this and other behaviors towards empire (hegemony) culminate in destructive cycles. The baby boomers as a cohort largely caused this, and have been orchestrating it in leadership so that the consequences of their choices don't hit until after they die.

paulddraper 1y ago

Romney pushed for E-Verify in his campaign. He lost and it never happened.

msgodel 1y ago

I think most of the voters who want this also want that but the choices are: mass illegal immigration vs mass deportations. People voting in primaries should probably take this into consideration.

seadan83 1y ago
False dichotomy. - Recall back to the old republican party of just 20 years ago, GW Bush wanted a guest worker program. - Recall back to just a year and a half ago, a big bill was in congress to drastically ramp up employment laws and increase border funds - funny enough that was rejected. That rejection by the republican party _increased_ illegal immigration - The deportation rate under BOTH Obama and Biden has been higher to date compared to the current (second) Trump administration. So, if you want higher deportation and laws to increase border security - apparently we need to go back to the previous administration... The facts are seemingly all very topsy turvy compared to the narrative.

apwell23 1y ago

I see this comment often. you think tyson foods is paying ppl cash under the table?

johnnyanmac 1y ago

Trump can't implicate himself whie pretending he cares about American labor. Also, I'll keep saying it: the cruelty is the point. And sadly the Stanford experiment shows that people will always oblige over the change to torture others if there's no consequences.

belorn 1y ago

Looking at Sweden and the issue of human trafficking in construction, cleaning and farming, the general problem is that the fine businesses are employing independent contractors from multiple layers of hiring firms, and no one seems very interesting to hold the people who is benefiting from the labor responsible. It is a well know open secret that not only do practically every large construction site employ illegal immigrants, but there is also a tier system for who do what job. The highest risk and longest hours are given to illegal immigrants. The next tier are those that work off the books, and then last we got those that operate legit as there need to be at least a few of those. This setup seemingly works, until there is an accident or the hiring firm suddenly refuse paying the illegal workers and the miserable details of the human slavery becomes news for a day.

braunjohnson 1y ago

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deepsun 1y ago

Why would I fine honest law-abiding willing to work people, who only want to raise our GDP and pay taxes? I saw them, worked with them, so don't tell me they all criminals or lazy. "Legal" or "illegal" is just a label we put on the same person, but person doesn't change. It's non-working lazy criminals we want to push against. Oftentimes those who could get their *ss off the couch and emigrate are the most active.

theshrike79 1y ago

Also why are they chasing down chefs in restaurants and people on Home Depot parking lots. Conspicuously nobody is checking agricultural businesses in red states. Coincidence? Definitely not.

LorenPechtel 1y ago

Yeah, there are systems. The problem is they are only as good as how we establish identity. And so long as identity theft is a widespread problem it's not going to work. Back in the 80s my mother was the victim of what I presume was this. The IRS was determined that she should either pay the taxes "owed" or get "her employer" to amend the W-2. What employer? She hadn't worked for *anybody* and couldn't find the supposed employer. In hindsight I suspect the answer was to file that form to amend the W-2, but this was before the internet so it would have been much harder to get answers.

cmurf 1y ago

Neo-feudalism. Lords are punished for embarrassing the sovereign.