11 ms·
Don't watermark your legal PDFs with purple dragons in suits
- redwoodsec 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Moosdijk 2y agoRead the article and find out
- edm0nd 2y agoWhy not?
- archerx 2y ago[flagged]
- tomhow 2y agoBe kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer... Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes. Please don't post shallow dismissals... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- wiradikusuma 2y agoAlso, sometimes we (developers) like to use wacky data for testing purposes. For example, I like to put Batman as a dummy user, and my QA likes to upload cat pictures when testing uploads/images. We do it so it's obvious it's test data, and also we're lazy to think of more "real" data. Just say some users expect real(ish) data for testing. I had a client who was totally not happy when he saw Batman and Superman in the test data.
- ghssds 2y agoYour client needs to remove the broom stucks in their ass. Your story reminds me of the uptight people angry about the Anubis' catgirl.
- DoctorOW 2y agoI give Abubis a special pass, because they sell a business oriented version without the character. The true cost of using FOSS is you don't have any say in what the developer does.
- radlad 2y agoAu contraire, FOSS allows you to fork and make modifications.
- hk__2 2y agoThis just confirms OP’s point that "you don't have any say in what the developer does", since the only way to get your modifications in if the developer disagrees is to maintain your own version of the code.
- radlad 2y agoThis is also true of paid software, except you have to start from scratch.
- registeredcorn 2y agoI forget how the phrase goes, but it's something like, "Someone else can do it better than you, but no one will ever care more about what you need than yourself." The point basically being that there are tradeoffs: you are either okay with imperfection, or you have to do it yourself. It appears true, whether it be for software development or home repair.
- arresin 2y ago
- cynicalsecurity 2y agoIt actually distracts from reading. It feels as if the person producing these papers hasn't even tried reading them themselves, it's painful for the eyes. And what is this watermark even supposed to protect from?
- Llamamoe 2y agoPrinting and photocopying? Because this could get really unreadable really quick.
- rootsudo 2y agoI get why furries are called that — they’re into human-animal caricatures with fur. What do you call someone who likes dragons? Scalies?
- nicman23 2y agoyep that is what they are calling themselves
- senectus1 2y agoThey're not InDrag? :-D sorry, this is a silly subject
- rootsudo 2y agoTIL and I didn't want to, sigh, Internet.
- mukesh610 2y agoUnintentionally discovering a thing you know you're going to hate has got to be top 10 internet experiences.
- some_furry 2y agoHate's a strong word for this interaction.
- toast0 2y agoDon't ask a question you don't want answered :P
- cess11 2y agoPeople who are into dragons are furries, it's not a literal term. Their furry subgroup is usually called scalies, which besides dragons and snakes include people who are into things like salamanders and other amphibians. I'm under the impression that such taxonomies are less important to these in-groups than whether you're just into the aesthetic or get off on it sexually as well.
- demarq 2y agoThe whole point of a judicial process is to make judgments on the merit of a case not personal prejudice. What if someone comes to court wearing tattoos are they more guilty?
- _bin_ 2y agoLawyers are held to different standards of professional conduct than defendants. This also makes it much harder to read.
- demarq 2y agoI see what you are saying about there being different standards. I would follow up with, if the shoe was on the other foot, do you believe that a lawyer with tattoos and or purple hair should be allowed to practice? We may never agree? But I think that we should be more tolerant of individuality than prejudice.
- demarq 2y agoI change my mind. A tattoo is individuality, a purple dragon on a client document is not an appropriate place to express that.
- Zetaphor 2y agoYou're comparing a person's appearance to the formatting of a legal document. Nobody is talking about the physical appearance of the attorney. There is procedure and standards in document filing for a reason, this is more difficult to read than a white background.
- _bin_ 2y agoI disagree with the way the bar associations are currently constructed as state-sanctioned monopolies. Since they're technically the ones who determine who is "allowed to practice", that's a hard question to answer. I'd be comfortable establishing a stronger dress code for courtrooms - wear business casual or some such - but dyed hair and tattoos aren't easily fixable mistakes if you get called to court, so they have to be permitted for at least the defendant. For attorneys, it's probably fine to say that those with purple hair and tattoos can practice but not appear in a courtroom to represent a client. They can prep and file a patent but not represent you in a trial. That is, of course, if most people would hire an attorney with purple hair and tattoos. I would not do that unless I wanted to somehow get the death penalty for a speeding ticket.
- userbinator 2y agoThe hosting company iFastNet uses a green and yellow dragon, which is what came to mind when I read the title, despite it being nearly 2 decades since I had anything to do with them, so I think this is definitely a marketing stunt of some sort.
- zahrc 2y agoAny image in this position would be distracting. However, I have never understood notions like this: “it is juvenile and impertinent. The Court is not a cartoon” Is like my great grandpa scolding us at the dinner table for laughing and talking.
- speerer 2y agoIf he laughed and talked in court over the judge, he would also be scolded.
- cess11 2y agoThe court is not a homely dinner between citizens, it's the pinnacle of state power and a place where people are judged by it. Even if the court would always be just and fair it would still be a place of tragedy and suffering for many of the participants.
- globular-toast 2y agoA judge has the power to (effectively or actually) end someone's life. I am very glad this responsibility is taken seriously. As an adult I'm sick of memes and childish "stickers" etc everywhere as it is. It certainly doesn't belong in a court.
- Sharlin 2y agoIt’s just as terrible as a lawyer submitting a document written in a totally inappropriate register, like street slang littered with vulgar phrases. There’s a time and a place for cartoon dragons. A court of law is neither. If you don’t understand why, maybe it’s time for you to learn a thing or two about human communication.
- thinkingemote 2y ago> Is like my great grandpa scolding us at the dinner table for laughing and talking It's more like a non-familial, formal dinner setting. Think about a job interview where the CEO and interviewer take you and another interviewee to dinner in a fancy restaurant. You turn up in jeans and sneakers with your buddy and you laugh and crack jokes together, the other interviewee turns up in smart clothes and talks soberly. In a few cases (and perhaps only seen in Holywood movies about the American Dream) the CEO may love the irreverence and impertinence and see it as a strength and sign of strong individuality, in almost all cases the bosses will not appreciate it and you will not get a job. Great grandpa loves you, the boss at your place of work doesn't.
- dheera 2y agoReminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGOofzZOyl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGOofzZOyl8
- brumar 2y ago> that plaintiff shall not file any other documents with the cartoon dragon or other inappropriate content Formal answers to goofiness (voluntary or not) will always amuse me.
- perihelions 2y ago- "The whole story would be far more humorous were it not from a case in which Perrone represented a woman who claims that she nearly died after being incarcerated and not given proper medical care. Perrone must now refile his complaint in that case—without the cartoon dragon." That should be more offensive than cartoons. In a just world. It's not as if the victim had the luxury of many choices of law firms, or any capacity to oversee their work. Their access to legal services is presumably similar to their access to medical care. There's nothing amusing about this outcome. It's seriously depressing that "the coked-up cartoon-dragoon attorney" is the best representation that person, in their helpless situation, was able to navigate to.
- jbverschoor 2y agoThe world has gone from substance to optics. You see it in every industry or field.
- lores 2y agoHeh, optics have been important since the dawn of man, and probably even before. Ziggurats are all about optics, and so are mating displays. A cynic might say "more important", but that's hard to ascertain.
- neilv 2y agoI used to put a diagonal light gray huge "DRAFT" across pages of certain documents for which it was important that a working draft not be interpreted as final. What would've been a great use for the lawyer's dragon documents would be to clearly mark incomplete/unapproved drafts, for internal review only. Because, obviously, there was no way that you would accidentally submit a filing to the court with a huge purple cartoon dragon on every page. Depending on the lawyer's personality, a big purple dragon might also double as lighthearted stress relief, when billing 12+ hours a day, of high-stakes work.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoText watermarks can be a PITA when they cover the page and the PDF reader prioritizes them for text selection rather than the top layer text.
- zzo38computer 2y agoPerhaps the watermark could be made as a picture even if it contains text, so that it cannot be used with text selection.
- generationP 2y agoWhat about a header/footer saying "DRAFT" (ideally with the date and other things that would perhaps not fit on a watermark)?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- low_tech_love 2y agoHis business is called “Dragon Lawyers”, his phone number is JAKELAW, his main reason for using is because “people like dragons” and his firm’s goal is to “integrate AI to lower the cost of legal services”. I’m pretty sure this is not the guy pulling his hair off for 12+ hours a day to make sure he is doing it right.
- jillyboel 2y agoAt least it wasn't a bad dragon.
- morkalork 2y agoWell the judge thought it was a bad dragon!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- arealaccount 2y agoDoes purchased for $20 online imply the dragon is an NFT? I bet the lawyer could flip it now if yes.
- awkwardpotato 2y agoNo? The concept of purchasing images online has existed long before NFTs
- cookingmyserver 2y agoQuestion - is watermarking legal filings even common? How about the law firm logos in the footer?
- duskwuff 2y agoNo; this filing is very unusual. Typical practice is for legal filings to be submitted in a standardized and very plain format.
- kccqzy 2y agoAnd that standardized and plain format is simply typographically ugly. The legal profession has done better. Just look at the opinions from the Supreme Court. Single spaced, nice typeface, good margin. Hallmarks of elegant typesetting and optimized for readability. Why aren't legal filings standardized based on this format?
- impossiblefork 2y agoI think it's a mistake to have rules about filings. Maybe it's distracting, but if the filing has been done, there should be no reason for the court not to read it and make a decision based on the text. Procedure or order can't be more important than deciding cases.
- voidfunc 2y agoNah this is not the place to let folks get cutesy. If anything the standards should be strict and uniform.
- impossiblefork 2y agoYes, the dragon is terrible and it's very inappropriate, but someone can't behave sensibly may still be someone whose case the courts must hear.
- alwa 2y agoThey’re more than willing to hear the case. It’s the lawyer, not the complainant, who the court is chastising. If anything, it scans like the court is concerned, like you are, that this vulnerable person’s case isn’t being presented with the seriousness it deserves.
- impossiblefork 2y agoYes, but if a filing is sensible they should not care. It is reasonable to forbid further such filings, or require it to be re-filed, but artificially delaying something for the sake of seriousness or decorum is not to take it seriously. If it is a serious matter you deal with what you have.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- striking 2y agoIf you allow one person to get away with this, others may see it as an invitation to do worse. Filings are often a matter of immutable public record and it makes sense that there should be rules as to what goes into them. What is the act of deciding cases if not a carefully constructed procedure meant to keep order? What is the harm of telling a lawyer to try again, this time following the rules?
- generationP 2y agoOne day, someone will discover a use for across-the-page watermarks that is not better handled by marginalia and makes up for the loss in readability, copyability and compatibility with graphics. Until then, we'll be seeing this...
- TechSquidTV 2y agoI find it disturbing that a judge has blocked the legal system because they don't like a lawyer's logo.
- ianferrel 2y agoThey didn't, though. No one has lost access to the legal system. They just said they had to resubmit without the watermark on every page.
- kebokyo 2y agoGamers may be the most oppressed group of people… but I think furries are a close second.
- hluska 2y agoMy dad said something a few years ago - we’re all more interested in being ‘funny’ and ‘edgy’ than acting like adults and getting on with each other. The world has gotten very embarrassing.
- F3nd0 2y agoDid he ever specify what he meant by ‘acting like adults’? I can imagine a number of changes in attitude one might associate with growing up, and I find a good part of them regrettable at best.
- jihadjihad 2y agoFrom the PDF linked in TFA: > Respectfully submitted, DRAGON LAWYERS PC I don't think the judge thought it was submitted all that respectfully.
- lowbloodsugar 2y agoIf watermarks are thing, and the judge just doesn’t like this one because he finds it disrespectful, that sounds like a first amendment issue.
- rexpop 2y agoContempt findings are subject to the 1st amendment, but criminal speech acts are not protected by the 1st amendment. Arguably, the dragon exhibits a trespass against the dignity of the court itself.
- lowbloodsugar 2y ago“Dignity” is just racism in disguise.
- rexpop 2y agoRacism may be that which denies one's inherent human dignity based on ethnicity.
- firefoxd 2y ago> I don't know what the big deal is. Lady Justice also has scales. This comment had me spitting my coffee. How do they even come up with this.
- goku12 2y agoWow! I thought the judge was overreacting. But that's one extremely annoying watermark. I would demand the same, no matter what I do for a living.
- daveslash 2y agoIt might be appropriate if you're a children's cartoonist/artist and you're sending out proofs? But yeah, I get your point and agree.
- sbarre 2y agoThere's a point in everyone's career where they think their work is under constant threat of being stolen, copied, repurposed or otherwise used in a manner that will "steal your livelihood" or some thing.. Eventually you realize that a) no one cares, your work isn't _that_ unique and valuable and b) if someone wants to use your stuff, they will find a way.. The idea of a giant watermark behind text that can just be scanned and OCR'ed anyways is this kind of silly.
- kccqzy 2y agoI don't think that's true for the generation of people who grew up with the internet. "Information ought to be free" was ingrained into their systems. You either put something on the internet and expect that people will want it for free, or you don't put it on the internet and it's private.
- sbarre 2y agoOf course, there are edge cases to any scenario.
- fuzzer371 2y agoOh no! How dare someone have some fun
- leptons 2y agoCourtrooms are not a place designed for "fun". If you're in serious legal trouble you better hope your lawyer isn't there to have "fun" and make it difficult for the judge to read about your case.
- mjgoeke 2y agoThat's not a "watermark", keep it to 5% opacity. This is around 13% and very distracting.
- indrora 2y agoThere's a color, gray95, that is the recommended black and white color for watermarks in a few books I've read on the topic. Honestly the best way to do it right is to ask the court (politely) what their stated requirements for watermarking are and if you get shrugs, you go for the bare minimum.
- mark212 2y agothere is no court where I have ever practiced that would accept a watermark of any kind at whatever percentage or color. And he didn't need to ask, it's right there in the rules (state and local). Every court has extremely detailed requirements for font, size, line spacing, line numbering, color of cover for printed "chambers copies," size of margins, how the name of the court should be set out and where, and so on. Literally no excuse for this, he's lucky he didn't get sanctioned
- Tade0 2y agoWhat a fascinating cultural difference. In my corner of the world there's a Facebook page, the name of which translates to "Half-assed court documents" and it showcases badly made documents issued by courts.
- astura 2y agoYou don't watermark legal documents that you are submitting to a court.
- apparent 2y agoCourts have all sorts of detailed requirements for briefs. They specify font, size, spacing, etc. It is crazy that a lawyer thought that this would pass muster.
- OJFord 2y agoIs there a term for this (bad) style of writing or linguistic device where you mention the thing ('purple dragon') in the title/first paragraph and then really force a synonym in the second? > Federal Magistrate Judge Ray Kent of the Western District of Michigan was unamused by a recent complaint (PDF) that prominently featured the aubergine wyrm. (Emphasis mine.)
- Wingy 2y agoYou could call it Elegant Variation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegant_variation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegant_variation
- prepend 2y agoSome people want to be artists but are journalists instead.
- default-kramer 2y agoI realize no one is claiming otherwise, but this writer almost certainly did it intentionally for humorous effect. ("Aubergine wyrm" is just too good to be accidental.) It's like "the lick" in jazz.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Izkata 2y agoUsing modern terminology, I think it's actually a drake, not a wyrm. Wyrm and dragon were only a synonyms centuries ago, nowadays dragon is an umbrella term for those and more.
- mmmlinux 2y agoThese documents should all be processed through a computer to sanitize anything that could be considered unique or specific enough to identify anyone involved with the creation. some kind of linter for court documents.
- tedmcory77 2y agoWhat if that is part of my religion?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- crazygringo 2y agoThe problem doesn't even seem to be the dragon. The problem is you don't "watermark" court filings in the first place. That's generally not a thing. Court filings have strict requirements around formatting. This isn't any different from trying to file in Comic Sans or a 48-pt font. Unfortunately this stunt is functioning as free publicity for this firm, because it's getting written about...
- bandrami 2y agoI used to sysadmin for a law firm that used watermarks for draft filings as they went through the internal workflow on the theory that nobody would be stupid enough to actually file something with a translucent toucan on it, so it would make accidentally filing a draft less likely.
- zzo38computer 2y agoWriting "DRAFT" on it might also help.
- opello 2y agoIn a speech bubble attached to the toucan!
- andrelaszlo 2y agoTranslucent Toucan... my highschool nickname.
- hsbauauvhabzb 2y agoWhat’s the purpose of the format requirement? To enable ocr or to just prevent silly games like this one?
- bitwize 2y agoBoth to prevent silly games and for similar reasons as the "no brown M&Ms" rider in Van Halen's venue contracts: if you read and followed the instructions in detail for small things like formatting, you read and followed the instructions for the things that actually matter as well.
- MartinGAugustin 2y ago[flagged]
- bitwize 2y ago[flagged]
- zzo38computer 2y agoI am not so sure. Since the problem seems to be (and should be) that there is a watermark at all (as other people have mentioned), I think it would not solve it.
- tomhow 2y agoWe've asked you this before, and we're now asking again: could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful .
- kylehotchkiss 2y agoThis was a good example of a case to assign the plaintiff a new lawyer at the old ones expense
- fennecbutt 2y agoHeadline umderstates the issue. The logo in the corner is fine, but this watermark covers the entire page, behind all the text. I wouldn't even call it a watermark by this point, it's a fucking background. Now it just needs to be tiled.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoRead thru hundreds of comments, and yet your comment is the only one that comes close to actually rendering an opinion on the design of the watermark. Someone did comment about the appropriate color to be used (grey63?) but i haven't really heard from experts on what would be good outcome, if this was any other forum and watermarking was still acceptable. Would love to hear such thoughts!
- fennecbutt 2y agoImo there's no point watermarking legal text like that. Just a logo in footer or header is enough. Even for something that does need to be protected, watermarking is defunct and garish. Like qr codes. And as a furry I appreciate their logo in general.
- sans_souse 2y agoI wish that same judge were handling consumer rights right about now, because someone needs to put a proverbial foot down and curb what advertising has become. Stop Purple Dragon Cartoons from popping up while I'm reading an article. Stop the 15 second Purple Dragon commercial that plays every G D time I watch an online video. Stop screaming at me to buy Purple Dinos while I'm pumping gas that already I'm paying out the A on to fill my tank. (I'd be curious to know if anyone lives next door to one of these gas stations; it must be obnoxious being subjected to that 24/7.) It's not professional - It's a bad look. Liberty Mutual - I'm talking to you. Et al. Y'all have gone off the rails.