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East German Stasi Tactics – Zersetzung (2021)
- kmeisthax 2y agoThe section at the end about support and solidarity is the most important bit. Personally, I feel like Zersetzung has already been a thing in the US since at least 2014. Modern social media is very, very good at getting people to shout at each other and do nothing. People don't talk to each other, they shout to themselves while watching the telescreen.
- baxtr 2y agoI feel like it started 2001. Unfortunately, it seems as if the terrorists might have achieved many of their goals years later.
- starspangled 2y agoBin Laden wanted to create a unified Islamic Caliphate uniting Muslims around the world, and overthrowing governments in the Middle East and Arabic world seen as usurpers and puppets of the west and zionists. I don't think he particularly cared whether or not people in England or America got locked up for social media posts or other alleged freedoms. I don't think he would have been thrilled about the state of the Middle East today, if he were alive to see it. What's happening in western countries is significantly the doing of (and almost certainly in line with the goals of) our ruling classes. Breaking down social cohesion, reducing the population of a country to little more than its head count and what it can do "for the economy", and pitting different groups to fight against one another are all key to ruling in their own interests.
- atoav 2y agoI had a similar thought a while ago. If the goal of the terrorists was to shake the system in such a way it destroyed (or seriously harmed) itself, that goal was achieved. I believe the authoritarian ICE deportations without due process are essentially the imperial boomerang of the Guantanamo Bay-style human right abuses that followed 9/11. In human history stretching the homelands rules beyond recognition when acting abroad has rarely turned out well for the homeland in the long run.
- walterbell 2y agoScience-fiction industrialization (TV series spoiler), Emperor Clone Cleon (Day) and Azura, "Foundation" S1E10, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05qXF5QLWw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t05qXF5QLWw > Do you know how many people we uncovered?
- paganel 2y ago> than political grassroots activists have today in places such as Western Europe and North America That (2021) from the title is on the mark, as I think that by now, 2025, it has been made quite obvious that political protests in the West can only get up to a certain point, after which you risk prison, job loss or a combination of the two (even bough January 6 and the associated political repression took place in early 2021, so maybe the author should have already been aware of it)
- vkou 2y agoIt was, of course, quite unfortunate that the footsoldiers carrying out an illegal coup faced sanction, while their leaders got off scot-free. (Well, most of them, Guiliani seems to be deeply fucked, and now that he's no longer useful to the regime, has been thrown overboard.) (I'm sure someone will now chime in to explain to us how no, it's quite normal for a mob that's trying to overturn the results of a democratic election to break into a capital building while congress is in session, putting it under lockdown. And then someone else will chime in how it's exactly like a bunch of college students protesting by sitting down in the hallways of a campus building that they on any normal day have full access to and refusing to leave.) Incidentally, the organizers of that putsch are now imprisoning people without trial in foreign concentration camps, and are refusing court orders to have them released. This is also, of course, above-board behaviour, and demonstrates that they have nothing but the deepest respect for both the law, the democratic process, and the checks and balances that safeguard us.
- sofixa 2y ago> even bough January 6 and the associated political repression took place in early 2021 Repression for a coup attempt is the expected and wanted outcome. Also, please stop mixing the US, maybe Canada and UK with "the West". Political protests in France remain quite powerful, even if they haven't managed to force the government to go back on some long promised and long needed reforms (pensions).
- paganel 2y ago> Political protests in France remain quite powerful, Political repression against the gilets jaunes was quite powerful, too, thanks for reminding me. It was surreal to be stopped in the middle of no-where, Pays de la Loire, by a bunch of gendarmes who were holding submachine guns, and all that because it was still gilets jaunes season (early autumn of 2019, if I remember right).
- sien 2y agoIt's remarkable how quickly Communism collapsed in Eastern Europe the moment Soviet support went. Despite decades of intense propaganda, killings of people in uprisings and the methods of Stasi as described in the article. Even with all that effort most people didn't believe in the regime. So it's hard to say whether the Stasi's tactics worked. Only people in the regimes like Ceausescu and Honecker actually thought people liked it. And perhaps not even them.
- kmeisthax 2y agoIf people believed in the regime, they wouldn't have needed a Stasi to impose it upon them.
- afterburner 2y agoSoviet support? More like Soviet control.
- tpm 2y agoAnd also intimidation and threats. All of the the regimes collapsed swiftly once Gorbachev declared there will be no Soviet military response, like there was in 1956 and 1968. One wonders what would have happened if Poland in 1981 didn't feel like the Soviets will repeat that; there are some reasons to believe they would not.
- lb1lf 2y agoAs for your last point, Solzhenitzyn said something memorable about that - 'We know that they are lying, they know that they are lying, they even know that we know they are lying, we also know that they know we know they are lying too, they of course know that we certainly know they know we know they are lying too as well, but they are still lying. In our country, the lie has become not just moral category, but the pillar industry of this country.'
- sien 2y agoIt makes you wonder if 'disinformation' actually works if the mass propaganda of totalitarian regimes fails so dramatically. There is an interesting book called 'Not Born Yesterday' that points out that people are pretty skeptical . https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/45358676-not-born-yesterday https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/45358676-not-born-yester...
- anovikov 2y agoTime and again we see how half-assed dictatorships don't work. Soviet Union and the Eastern Block failed because they tried to be nice. By doing so, they achieved the worst result possible: cynical, profoundly disillusioned society and an economic failure on top of that. They should've either folded when they realised that "classless and stateless" Communism was never going to work - which is, by the late 1970s at the latest, or practiced pure Stalinism where everyone who wavered, got purged in an instant and thus generations kept being genetically filtered for obedience. There is no such thing as "Socialism with a human face". It is so anti-human, it can only exist by hard coercion, or not at all.
- BLKNSLVR 2y agoAre you using Socialism and Communism interchangeably? Communism goes further than Socialism (or Socialism doesn't go as far as Communism), Communism is more extreme, cold and hard and not at all blurry-edged, according to my understanding anyway. All instances of -isms eventually fall to the unrelenting winds of human nature. Not necessarily due to the ideals within the -ism itself.
- anovikov 2y agoWell, Communism was seen by countries we call "Communist" (GDR, Soviet Union, Red China in Mao era, and the like), as something potentially possible in some distant future, it was their endgame (some claim, only notionally so, with no actual plan of getting there, but it doesn't matter really). What they had in reality, they called "Socialism". Socialism is the "form of industrialised society where private ownership of means of production is outlawed". Communism is the (hypothetical) "classless, stateless society".
- e40 2y agoThe above comment chain is what is wrong with us. We talk about labels more than we talk about issues. Labels are a distraction. If you have a conversation about real things I find we agree nore than we disagree. But disagreement is what is fomented by our oppressors, because it distracts us from fighting them.
- walterbell 2y agoArticle mirror: https://archive.is/d1rzC https://archive.is/d1rzC Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung 2014, https://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of_a_surveillance_state/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/hubertus_knabe_the_dark_secrets_of... > Hubertus Knabe studies the Stasi — and was spied on by them. He shares stunning details from the fall of a surveillance state, and shows how easy it was for neighbor to turn on neighbor.
- lifestyleguru 2y agoDuring COVID face masks were enough. Fine speculators earner low hundreds trading them, politicians made frauds worth millions, anyone could pick on any stranger not wearing or wearing them incorrectly, law enforcement could impose the most ridiculous fines. It's so trivial to make people yap at each other.
- EdwardDiego 2y agoNot wearing one implied a lack of care for others in your society. Wearing them imposed minimal burden, so why are you surprised when you signal that you don't care about others in your society, that they responded in kind?
- quantumgarbage 2y agoOn this topic, I can't recommend enough the movie "The life of Others" (2006). Depicts surveillance in Eastern Germany and the state of sheer fear and paranoia its citizens had to live in.
- begueradj 2y agoIn some European countries, if you apply to rent an apartment, the landlord can see you failed to pay 1 month rent several years ago. That's just a tiny example. Is this control and surveillance or ... democracy and freedom ?
- Helmut10001 2y agoI have a tenant who has been living in my garden house for two years without paying rent. It is almost impossible to solve this situation. I am not even allowed to turn off the water or electricity. There are always two sides to every coin.
- lifestyleguru 2y agoYou wish to increase his rent 10% annually and after move out keep his deposit 6 months. Then confiscate 50% of the deposit for "damages". You wish!
- Helmut10001 2y agoIn fact, I would first like to see rent being paid at all. And I don't have a deposit to keep.
- lifestyleguru 2y agoMy experience as a legit and regularly paying tenant are equally awful.
- dmos62 2y agoThat sucks. What law protects your renter?
- lifestyleguru 2y agoSo much effort and resources only to produce Trabants and Wartburgs. You will know them by the cars they produce.
- ashoeafoot 2y agohttps://www.theverge.com/electric-cars/655527/slate-electric-truck-price-paint-radio-bezos https://www.theverge.com/electric-cars/655527/slate-electric... indeed. the economic circumstances that produce. the situations that produce. a system that produces. which collapses and gives way to.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- flohofwoe 2y agoWell... ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzpx_jUUA0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjzpx_jUUA0
- lifestyleguru 2y agoEast of Iron Courtain represents: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUxoiHfAFBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUxoiHfAFBo Yes it was that bad it's not a parody. Lincoln was comparatively better which also explains weird sentiment towards "American cars" of people who were young in that era.
- EdwardDiego 2y ago/me looks at most British and American cars...
- raverbashing 2y agoAnd even the crappiest British car was better than the lawnmower that seated 4 that was the Trabant (ok maybe not the reliant robin, but still)
- okeuro49 2y agoIn the UK there is "social media intelligence", where AI systems scan the firehose of messages as they appear. [1] So people have been arrested for posting something online, even if nobody appears to have seen it, and they delete it shortly after. The policing is selective, depending on political view. For example, there were recently people with placards in London calling for the death of JK Rowling, which is de facto allowed by the police. In comparison the wrong social media post can carry a lengthy jail sentence. [2] The difference is so noticeable, it is now called "two tier policing". If someone perceives something you say as "hateful" they can report you to the police, who can record a "Non-crime hate incident" against your name. [3] This can show up on enhanced job checks, affecting employment. It's very similar to a Stasi file. [1] https://policinginsight.com/feature/advertisement/social-media-intelligence-an-intelligence-tool-kit-for-uk-policing/ https://policinginsight.com/feature/advertisement/social-med... [2] https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-punishment-of-lucy-connolly/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-punishment-of-lucy-c... [3] https://www.slaterheelis.co.uk/articles/crime-category/non-crime-hate-incidents-how-they-can-affect-your-dbs-check/ https://www.slaterheelis.co.uk/articles/crime-category/non-c...
- bufferoverflow 2y agoUK has a two-tier justice system.
- bilbo0s 2y agoIn fairness to UK, pretty much every place has a two tier justice system.
- tossandthrow 2y agoThat absolutely puts no fairness to the UK, but puts all these other places at equal shame.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago[flagged]
- 4gotunameagain 2y agoDivide and conquer. I'm pretty sure that the intelligence services nowadays condone the contemporary identity politics revolution because it distracts people (especially the youth) from the actual problems of society. I am old enough to remember the time where revolution meant actively fighting the oppressors or those in power, not posting on twitter about who has what between their pants and to which bathroom they should go to.
- black_13 2y ago[dead]
- sixhobbits 2y agoHow does one reconcile the idea that the Stasi disappeared political opponents regularly but also engaged in weird stuff like moving people's socks around. > The final stages entailed psychological and physical harassment: moving things around at home (one morning the alarm clock goes off at 5am instead of 7am, and the socks are in the wrong drawer, there’s no coffee left …); damage to bikes and vehicles (eg slashing tyres); the spreading of rumours as mentioned above; ordering goods and making appointments in target’s name etc. I get that sometimes a "broken" opponent is more useful than a dead one as they can sabotage the whole cause, like this article implies. But if you hold as much power as they did then it seems very unlikely to me that using resources to troll someone like this provides an effort/reward ratio that would be interesting to someone with that much existing power
- thinkingemote 2y agoPerhaps for the same reason Russia's intelligence forces does it? They kill people in an obvious manner to send a message and the message is to demoralise, destabilise and psychologically harass other people. "I could be next" I'm not sure if the Stasi disappeared people in an obvious or hidden manner though. Maybe they did it more frequently than modern states assassinations? In both cases it shows that the life of any person is not important to them - what's important is the effects an action causes.
- walterbell 2y agoYou can't disappear everyone. Deniable punishment of possible precrime would create superstitions for the general population to be on their best behavior. Sabotage that slows down an adversary would enable more time for surveillance. See "predictive policing", https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/police-pasco-sheriff-targeted/intelligence-led-policing/ https://projects.tampabay.com/projects/2020/investigations/p... > One former deputy described the directive like this: “Make their lives miserable until they move or sue.” In just five years, Nocco’s signature program has ensnared almost 1,000 people.
- zwaps 2y agoThe question you ask is really important, because it shows how devious the Stasi regime was and why it lasted half a century. Why would they do this? Why would they go through these lengths to destroy a person so entirely they wouldn't even need to disappear them? The Stasi knew that power is never that absolute. The GDR was built upon the idea that is was good, not evil (like the West). You can't be good and regularly disappear public figures, especially those from intellectual cycles. Additionally, people were aware of the oppression as is. If the GDR would have simply disappeared people, there would have been revolts. Germans were too connected to the other reality. Here is a popular song from that time I think what I want, and what makes me happy, but all in silence, and as it befits. My wish and desire no one can forbid, it remains so: thoughts are free. ... And if they lock me up in a dark dungeon, all that is purely futile work; for my thoughts tear through the barriers and walls in two: thoughts are free.
- kajal0302 2y ago[dead]
- thinkingemote 2y agoIt's worth repeating a tactic from every state's intelligence playbook, but I note that this article gives an interesting angle to this. Informants and spies are almost always those at the top of your group, they are the leaders, the ones with the money, the ones with the van, the people with the time to help out, to print your flyers, the people who can organise and transport. Spies are going to be the people above you that you trust. Spies will be your friends. In the UK, police informants even fathered children with members of their infiltrated groups! They are not going to be the new strange people who join and are look nervous but who make excellent and easy scape goats. States want the maximum value for their intelligence, the spies are going to be at the top of your group. The article suggests one way around it, to have flat organisations: to not have leaders. It gives resilience if when a person is compromised the group can continue, or when there is no leader the amount of information or damage that leader can cause would be less. Another way potentially would be the cell format, used in some of the worst terrorist groups, only operate in cells of 5 or less and only one of those in each small group have contact with only 1 other cell.
- KolyaKornelius 2y agoInformants fathering children with their sources was also a thing in the DDR. Often the lines were blurred because informants were former activists that were turned by threats and blackmail. But I personally know a woman who had 2 children with a guy who turned out to be an informant that had been specifically set upon her and her group of friends. She found out only after 1989 when the files were opened.
- mu53 2y agoI really think the incoherence of modern reform movements (Occupy, BLM, Defund Police, etc) is the result of modern political suppression groups having enough tools in their toolbox to eliminate leaders of these movements. Without a strong voice, the movement devolves into contradictory platforms, which results in no action.
- begueradj 2y agoSo there is no surveillance in Europe ? Like: EU: These are scary times – let's backdoor encryption! (https://www.theregister.com/2025/04/03/eu_backdoor_encryption/ https://www.theregister.com/2025/04/03/eu_backdoor_encryptio...) P.S. Again, just a tiny example
- PeterStuer 2y agoI can't be the only one seeing the strong parallels between 'Zersetzung' and late stage twitter cancel culture.
- amai 2y agoLook at the state of russian dissidents and opposition nowadays and you see Zersetzung at work.
- amai 2y ago„The first stage of Zersetzung was a comprehensive evaluation of state-held data and information, eg medical records, school reports, police records, intelligence reports, searches of target’s residence. At this point they were looking for any weak points (social, emotional or physical) that could be used to put pressure on the target, eg extra-marital affairs, criminal records, alcoholism, drug use, differences between the target and their group (eg age, class, clothing styles) that could be exploited to socially isolate them.“ Thanks to social media and big data this is a lot simpler nowadays.
- amai 2y ago„the grassroots opposition movements made the biggest contribution to the revolution that started in East Germany in autumn 1989“ That is a myth german people like to believe. In fact the real reason for the breakdown of communist east europe was that the governments of East Germany, Hungary, Poland, USSSR … were bankrupt: https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/grenzoeffnung-1989-schuldenfalle-sozialismus-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunkkultur.de/grenzoeffnung-1989-schu... As long as dictatorships are doing well economically, they will find ways and means to suppress uprisings. This makes effective economic sanctions, including harsh penalties for companies that do business with dictators, all the more important.
- alganet 2y agoEveryone is a member of the secret service with different clearances. Also, everyone is an informant. Also, everyone is a mutant. Also, everyone is a member of a secret society. Being a mutant, informant, or a member of a secret society is a crime. The computer is your friend! Everyone loves the computer. Just don't let it know that you are a mutant, an informant and a member of a secret society. As I said before, exactly like the Paranoia GURPS plot.