6 ms·

Talking about birds, I'm aware that certain species of parrots are considered to have comparative intelligence to a young child -- and they usually live a long

Talking about birds, I'm aware that certain species of parrots are considered to have comparative intelligence to a young child -- and they usually live a long life. I wonder whether it is possible to increase their intelligence further -- e.g. what if they are really as smart as 4-5 years old in one generation and a bit more in the next? Is there a way to "eugenics" (I know it's a bad word) birds on intelligence?

bpodgursky 2y ago
Many will scoff, but many things that are possible that nobody has tried. Especially projects that take decades.
colechristensen 2y ago
> Is there a way to "eugenics" (I know it's a bad word) birds on intelligence? Of course there is. Develop an intelligence test and remove the bottom x percentile from the breeding pool. Alternatively develop an environment that gives a competitive advantage to intelligence.
fn-mote 2y ago
With animals this is normally called a "breeding program". For example, some dogs are bred for intelligence. Edit: Historically, there were "hunting birds" kept by the wealthy. Even today, but they are much more rare than dogs. Training and breeding would be standard practice in that environment.
bloopernova 2y ago
One thought exercise I've had fun with in the past: We already control dogs' sub-species, so let's say we decide to uplift dogs to human level intelligence. How long would it take? At what point does it become unethical to modify a species that is on the way to intelligence? What does an evolved dog look like at different stages of their human-forced evolution? A modern dog is what (very rough) equivalent to which stage of human evolution?
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  As an owner of two border collies I feel like in some ways we're already on the very cusp of it starting to get creepy. Our female is insanely intuitive and able to figure out what's going on in simple sentences (probably mostly keywords and tone) and is extremely alert to the things going on that might be key to her. Let's say you breed a dog past toddler level intelligence, and a little more conscious, and communicative... How do we now feel about them having a lifespan of 10-15 years? It's already heartbreaking enough. Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans...
  - Intralexical 2y ago
    I imagine they'd feel about it as we feel towards Greenland sharks and Galapagos tortoises. And perhaps grateful that if they're here for a short time, they're blessed to burn all the brighter. > Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans... Though you might certainly feel less grief, if there was less of them to lose in the first place.
  - NoGravitas 2y ago
    Consciousness is already MALIGNANTLY USELESS[1] in humans. Spreading it to other species would be the greatest crime in human history. [1] Ligotti, 2010
    - freilanzer 2y ago
      I have also come to this conclusion. Consciousness might be an evolutionary dead end.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    > Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans... Having had dogs live with other dogs growing old and passing away, I think this might be a lower threshold than understanding (a subset of) human language. Surely even without humans, a pack of social animals has individuals getting sick and growing old, and that changes how they interact with each other. Elephants are known to keep visiting bones of relatives over multiple years. I'm personally more surprised at how well my 12-year old mutt picks up new routines, and the words that are said at the start of the routine, than at the thought that she would know that everyone's getting older and will die at some point. I'm anecdotally actually quite convinced she used to live with older people before -- she comes to "take care of me" every time I cough or sneeze.
nradov 2y ago
Sure, you could run a captive breeding program for parrots to select for intelligence (as measured by problem solving or trainability or whatever). But there's no "free lunch" in genetics. You'll find that strain ends up worse in some other attribute. Like maybe they're more aggressive or less fertile or have higher rates of cancer or something. There are always trade-offs.
- ferguess_k 2y ago
  I guess we have to wait until we totally understand genes before diving into the dark?
  - nradov 2y ago
    No, but when it comes to running experiments on animal subjects we do have to wait for ethics approval from an institutional review board.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    We have been doing that to animals and plants for thousands of years.
  - walleeee 2y ago
    Engineering a direct/deterministic map from genotype to phenotype may not be possible. Networks of gene regulation are often complex and interwoven, there are translational steps acting upon the genetic code, and development is driven not only by genes but physical/mechanical/chemical/electrical goings-on.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  Parrots in captivity have tons of unneeded survival traits to give up.
  - lukas099 2y ago
    And potential access to unlimited free calories.

bpodgursky 2y ago

Many will scoff, but many things that are possible that nobody has tried. Especially projects that take decades.

colechristensen 2y ago

> Is there a way to "eugenics" (I know it's a bad word) birds on intelligence? Of course there is. Develop an intelligence test and remove the bottom x percentile from the breeding pool. Alternatively develop an environment that gives a competitive advantage to intelligence.

fn-mote 2y ago

With animals this is normally called a "breeding program". For example, some dogs are bred for intelligence. Edit: Historically, there were "hunting birds" kept by the wealthy. Even today, but they are much more rare than dogs. Training and breeding would be standard practice in that environment.

bloopernova 2y ago

One thought exercise I've had fun with in the past: We already control dogs' sub-species, so let's say we decide to uplift dogs to human level intelligence. How long would it take? At what point does it become unethical to modify a species that is on the way to intelligence? What does an evolved dog look like at different stages of their human-forced evolution? A modern dog is what (very rough) equivalent to which stage of human evolution?

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
As an owner of two border collies I feel like in some ways we're already on the very cusp of it starting to get creepy. Our female is insanely intuitive and able to figure out what's going on in simple sentences (probably mostly keywords and tone) and is extremely alert to the things going on that might be key to her. Let's say you breed a dog past toddler level intelligence, and a little more conscious, and communicative... How do we now feel about them having a lifespan of 10-15 years? It's already heartbreaking enough. Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans...
- Intralexical 2y ago
  I imagine they'd feel about it as we feel towards Greenland sharks and Galapagos tortoises. And perhaps grateful that if they're here for a short time, they're blessed to burn all the brighter. > Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans... Though you might certainly feel less grief, if there was less of them to lose in the first place.
- NoGravitas 2y ago
  Consciousness is already MALIGNANTLY USELESS[1] in humans. Spreading it to other species would be the greatest crime in human history. [1] Ligotti, 2010
  - freilanzer 2y ago
    I have also come to this conclusion. Consciousness might be an evolutionary dead end.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  > Imagine if they were aware of their mortality and short relative lifespans... Having had dogs live with other dogs growing old and passing away, I think this might be a lower threshold than understanding (a subset of) human language. Surely even without humans, a pack of social animals has individuals getting sick and growing old, and that changes how they interact with each other. Elephants are known to keep visiting bones of relatives over multiple years. I'm personally more surprised at how well my 12-year old mutt picks up new routines, and the words that are said at the start of the routine, than at the thought that she would know that everyone's getting older and will die at some point. I'm anecdotally actually quite convinced she used to live with older people before -- she comes to "take care of me" every time I cough or sneeze.

nradov 2y ago

Sure, you could run a captive breeding program for parrots to select for intelligence (as measured by problem solving or trainability or whatever). But there's no "free lunch" in genetics. You'll find that strain ends up worse in some other attribute. Like maybe they're more aggressive or less fertile or have higher rates of cancer or something. There are always trade-offs.

ferguess_k 2y ago
I guess we have to wait until we totally understand genes before diving into the dark?
- nradov 2y ago
  No, but when it comes to running experiments on animal subjects we do have to wait for ethics approval from an institutional review board.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  We have been doing that to animals and plants for thousands of years.
- walleeee 2y ago
  Engineering a direct/deterministic map from genotype to phenotype may not be possible. Networks of gene regulation are often complex and interwoven, there are translational steps acting upon the genetic code, and development is driven not only by genes but physical/mechanical/chemical/electrical goings-on.
BurningFrog 2y ago
Parrots in captivity have tons of unneeded survival traits to give up.
- lukas099 2y ago
  And potential access to unlimited free calories.