21 ms·

I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Pix revolutionised the way we transact in Brazil. I've used Pix to pay for things that cost only cents, and I

• mhluongo 1y ago
  > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? If it solves th same problems, why is Brazil considering banning self-custodial USD stablecoins? And why has there been an ongoing discussion about launching mBRL, and stablecoin pegged to the real? https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-banning-stablecoin-withdrawals-to-self-custodial-wallets/ https://www.pymnts.com/cryptocurrency/2024/brazil-considers-...
  • londons_explore 1y ago
    Nearly every non-western country has it's own e-cash type system. Everything from m-pesa in Kenya to Gcash in the Philippines to PromptPay in Thailand to Alipay in China to SGQR in Singapore to MPay in Oman.... The pattern is that these systems are nearly all fully centralised, require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned, and not cross border.
    • pjc50 1y ago
      And quite a lot of Western ones like Vipps. And see this long list: https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-tour/ https://truelayer.com/reports/alternative-payments/european-... > require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable.
      • earnesti 1y ago
        >> require ID, zero privacy, usually government sanctioned > Unfortunately systems that don't have those requirements are going to be money laundering channels. I wish it wasn't such a big concern but it's unavoidable. There same requirements also make the likelihood of these systems scaling beyong one jurisdiction very unlikely. Tourists don't want to set up a payment account for every country they visit. Or other way around, banks don't want to KYC and set up an account for every foreign tourist. As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well.
        • alephnerd 1y ago
          > As Visa and MC work globally, I'm betting that the dominance from those will continue. China, India, Brazil, Russia, Japan, South Korea, and others are all trying to expand their own transaction networks. While it's still piecemeal, a Chinese or Indian tourist in Thailand can use UnionPay or UPI to transact without using Visa/Mastercard, a Russian tourist in Vietnam can use Mir, a Brazilian in Argentina can use Pix instead of Visa/MC as well, and a Japanese visitor in Singapore can use JCB instead. Even the ECB has recently started considering this option (though it might also be an attempt to force the Trump admin to negotiate). The biggest thing blocking international payment competitors is FATF, which has some regulations biased in favor of Visa/Mastercard. > Cryptocurrencies might have some change of becoming the "global" transaction method as well I'm not sure. Most jurisdictions that aren't the US and EU heavily regulate cryptocurrencies, and at best allow state managed or regulated cryptocurrencies, which basically makes the whole point of crypto moot.
    • sharpshadow 1y ago
      And then BRICS comes along connecting all those countries payment systems and voilà the circle is complete.
  • jowea 1y ago
    Only real afaik, although there have been some thoughts to integrating some neighbours to the system. Right afaik it works in shops popular with Brazilian tourists in the Southern Cone through some workarounds.
  • wslh 1y ago
    > Does it work internationally? Does it send USD as well, or only the real? There are neighboring wallets (like Belo in Argentina) that support it, and I believe tourism will drive even more integration over time.
  • AlienRobot 1y ago
    >Does it work internationally? Does crypto? You may have heard of this thing called "tariffs" lately. Even purchases of software licenses are tariffed in Brazil[1]. The average person purchasing goods with crypto is just going to ignore this and several similar laws. If you say crypto works to transact internationally, keep in mind: so does TF2 hats. 1: https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-federal-supreme-court-unravels-the-levy-of-taxes-on-software-licensing/ https://www.machadoassociados.com.br/en/2021/05/brazilian-fe...
    • mhluongo 1y ago
      Indeed, TF2 hats and gift cards appear to do something well that this system doesn't :)
      • dwattttt 1y ago
        I note that that thing is not "abide by the law"
• oulipo 1y ago
  Interestig, but this is also worrying to know that the government now knows exactly what you bought, where, when, and for how much. They can also (if there's a rogue government) create fake transactions to implicate you in things you haven't done
  • lotsofpulp 1y ago
    Any half competent government can always create fake transactions to implicate people, whether it’s a paper or electronic (government currency) transaction.
    • soco 1y ago
      And a government who would resort to creating fake transactions, probably wouldn't bother with creating fake transactions at all. So that argument sounds quite out of touch.
  • julkali 1y ago
    That's why central bank digital currencies are the way to go - same amount of trust as the (real) base currency and near-cash-level privacy (modulo implementation details)
  • forty 1y ago
    Is it much more worrying than having Visa being able to do that? Especially when you see how the US is going downhill, I think it'd rather take the risk of having to deal with hypothetical local fascist state.
    • ryandrake 1y ago
      There’s pretty much no practical difference between Visa knowing all this stuff and the government knowing it. All Visa’s data is at most one subpoena away and that’s the optimistic scenario.
      • kevincox 1y ago
• yetihehe 1y ago
  > I receive a push notification from my Brazilian bank before Wise finishes running the animation of confirmation of withdrawal. It's like magic. After I had to add a special animation for one email system so that user was sure that "the core functionality of encrypting" was indeed working (it took milliseconds in reality), your experience doesn't surprise me that much. But, in my "IoT" system we have a mix of devices. Our service can handle most requests in sub millisecond, but some devices (gprs) need at least minimum 1 second (20sec is still within time limit) to respond only because of slow connectivity. And then I have a parking ticket machines where you press button, wait 2 seconds, it beeps, then after 2sec it changes screen to "printing ticket", then after 2s you get the ticket, where everything can be a local action (free ticket without payment). Technology is wild.
  • seszett 1y ago
    The parking ticket machine might make things deliberately slow because the printer needs to warm up or something. Maybe it needs up to 5 seconds to warm up if it's in deep sleep, so splitting this into three 2s periods provides the least frustrating user experience. As soon as you need to deal with real hardware things always start to get complicated.
    • pjc50 1y ago
      More likely it's warming up the mobile comms state machine, without checking if it's actually needed. Unlike mobile phones which try to keep their data connection somewhat live, IoT things often drop back to the lowest state to save power (and possibly SIM cost) https://www.sharetechnote.com/html/Handbook_UMTS_RrcStateChange.html https://www.sharetechnote.com/html/Handbook_UMTS_RrcStateCha...
      • actionfromafar 1y ago
        And programmed on BASIC Stamp on some godforsaken discontinued hardware. :)
      • yetihehe 1y ago
        More likely it was written by some cheap interns and requires getting unique ticket id from server for "controlling" purposes. Then there is one part time employee (met him, small talked a little) who goes from car to car with terminal and checks if those tickets are valid. I have some experience with gprs systems here, so probable flow: - press button - gprs roundtrip about button press with "no payment, free ticket" (2s) - machine shows "printing ticket", asks server what to print (aka the idiotic unnecessary step) - gprs roundtrip (2s) - printer warmup? (?s) - prints ticket > to save power (and possibly SIM cost) Nope, costs per sim are monthly per card, until you hit the data limit, then per MB. Those machines typically have enough power to keep connection alive.
• m00dy 1y ago
  > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Pix can't facilitate cross-border micro payments.
  • diggan 1y ago
    > Pix can't facilitate cross-border micro payments. No reason it couldn't. Bizum (mobile payments in Spain) started with just Spain but can now be used for payments across & to/from Spain, Italy, Portugal, and Andorra. Bizum is also a member of European Mobile Payment Systems Association which I think will eventually lead to all members being able to make transfers to other members, but that might a somewhat dream rather than actual reality today.
    • m00dy 1y ago
      there's a lot of reasons that it won't happen anytime soon. Those countries use euro as their main currency, also culturally and historically connected, which you can call them latins. Why don't you add Denmark to that group ? You can't because it will take ages :)
      • burmanm 1y ago
        But for similar application, you could use MobilePay (Vipps?). That works across Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. So although only Finland uses Euro (and rest have their own currency), you can easily transfer money between persons using just their mobile number as an example.
      • mndgs 1y ago
        You can, just the central bank /regulator of that country needs to want it. Example: Sweden, which now transacts on SEPA, jointly with EUR currency.
    • graemep 1y ago
      All Eurozone countries, all bu one an EU member (and that one is very small has a very close trade deal with the EU) so not really cross border except from a certain legalistic angle. The practicalities are very different from transferring between say Brazil and the US.
• TaurenHunter 1y ago
  > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. ...except for inflation.
  • pjc50 1y ago
    Bitcoin being down 10% in the last week doesn't promise price stability.
    • lclc 1y ago
      Bitcoin goes up and down in value, BRL (or any other government currency) only goes down compared to real goods.
    • krunck 1y ago
      That's because Wall Street investors use it as a hedge against their traditional investments which, as you know, are not so stable right now.
• earnesti 1y ago
  Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app? Does it work through QR codes or NFC? Is there a Pix "card"?
  • DeathArrow 1y ago
    >Can you elaborate on the technicals? Is it a phone app? Isn't paying with some phone apps the default in China? And I think transferring using phone apps has some success in Africa, too.
    • homebrewer 1y ago
      I used Alipay (which is an Android application where you add a debit or credit card) for absolutely everything when I was there in October of last year. Sure seemed like everyone else was using it too. Except for Hong Kong, they have their own thing. I just used Google pay there.
      • pjc50 1y ago
        Does HK still have Octopus? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus_card I remember encountering that before London launched Oyster, probably inspired by it. Worked in station vending machines as well as for tickets.
        • dewey 1y ago
          Yep, Octopus is everywhere. Alipay HK is also almost everywhere. Different app than mainland China but basically the same.
  • rapfaria 1y ago
    You can have several unique keys, a few are unique to the whole system (like your phone number, Physical Persons Register (CPF)), but you can have several randomly generated per bank. Usually you tell someone your phone number, otherwise the random generated string is a big string, and you actually show them a QR code so they can transfer to your account, and vice-versa.
• DeathArrow 1y ago
  >Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. They protect against tracking and provide anonimity. That might be valuable.
  • salomonk_mur 1y ago
    For 0.001% of the population.
    • relistan 1y ago
      Yes, and they are not exclusively, but largely, criminals.
    • Klaster_1 1y ago
      To be fair, you don't know when you might need this. Crypto's useful in authoritarian countries as a means of financing activities the dictator doesn't want you to partake in, like independent media funding, or to move savings to another country in case of a "sudden" foreign currency operation restrictions.
      • speed_spread 1y ago
        It's even more useful to destabilize a country's economy, finance covert operations and straight out launder money!
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  • NicuCalcea 1y ago
    It might be valuable for a minority of people, but it is an active detriment for most. I want to know where my money is going, and I want my bank to be able to get it back in case of theft or fraud.
    • strobe 1y ago
      at same time you don't wanna to ask bank for permission to spend your money every time: "Can I buy some milk today? No!, let's visit our branch first and give some papers which will require significant time/effort to get for you." Most just not experiencing things like this but once that happen it is hard to ignore this possibility.
• Guestmodinfo 1y ago
  I wish we could make a comparison with Indian payment system calld UPI. I feel both are similar and I wish if we could know and compre all such govt run initiatives. UPI is Indian govt initiative and very reliable
  • pastelsky 1y ago
    UPI is great in terms of UX, but I don’t think it’s super reliable – especially big public banks go down all the time. The UPI base service had multiple incidents in the last 1 month too.
  • dyauspitr 1y ago
    The main difference is UPI is decentralized whereas Pix is centralized to the central bank of Brazil.
• weinzierl 1y ago
  Is there any way to use Pix as a tourist without Brazilian tax number or permanent residence. Technically a pre-paid option should be possible, but I could not find anything about something in that vein.
  • auadix 1y ago
    You don't need a permanent residence, but to use PIX you have to get an ID called CPF. This is your IRS number, as you said, tax number. It's easy to get but it takes time, you can have one as national from different country.
    • jowea 1y ago
      This is true but the next step is a Brazilian bank account.
      • weinzierl 1y ago
        Is there an online bank that allows to create an account just with the CPF and no proof of permanent residence?
        • jowea 1y ago
          I googled a bit, seems that maybe Bradesco bank allows it but it's a lot of paperwork and you need to be physically present at the bank branch.
      • nonethewiser 1y ago
        OK so it's firmly in the "not reasonable" territory for tourists. Just pay cash or credit card. Tourists aren't going to wait a while for a Brazilian tax id then use a Brazilian bank account before their trip. Just to select Pix as your payment method instead of card you already have in the Uber app. This isnt a take down of Pix. Sounds excellent and should be replicated in other countries. Lets just not pretend its a viable solution for tourists.
• accurrent 1y ago
  While I agree cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance, my experience with qr systems has been a mixed bag. The country I live in has a fairly good qr code payment system. But there was one day when the largest bank went down and that was chaos (cash very much has a role to play). We also supposedly have linkage with India's UPI. Unfortunately, it was impossible for me to actually use that linkage thanks to the way upi works (I think only some subset of banks are supported).
  • xenospn 1y ago
    QR codes are problematic. First of all, you can’t really verify it with your naked eye. It can take you to a fake site that looks just like the original. Using phone numbers is vastly superior.
    • LtdJorge 1y ago
      QR codes carry data. It might be a URL or it might not.
    • const_cast 1y ago
      [dead]
    • cesarb 1y ago
      > It can take you to a fake site that looks just like the original. At least with PIX, you scan the QR code directly on your online banking app, so there's no risk of going to a "fake site" (and the app also displays the information extracted fron the QR code, it's not a blind payment).
      • vitorgrs 1y ago
        There's also "Pix Copia e Cola" (Pix Copy and Paste)
    • SomeUserName432 1y ago
      The PIX QR codes are URLs without the preceding https:// https:// Scanning a PIX QR code with your camera will just result in text, not a payable URL. You have to scan it in your online banking app for it to be processed as something. Your banking app will load the details about the payment and you'll see the recipient details before performing the payment. Even with regular barcode payments, these barcodes are registered with the bank before it's a valid barcode. A lookup is done, if it exists the recipient details are displayed, often the amount, and verifications that it has not expired. (Do not receive after date X) Brazil has a pretty decent banking system, though the worst online-banking experience I've ever had. (Slowly improving)
• rglullis 1y ago
  > I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. If you have moved about 15 years before that, you'd have experienced the hyperinflation years and you've come to understand why Brazilian (retail) banking systems were always pushing the state of the art. (You'd also understand that cryptocurrencies are not meant to compete with payment networks that have institutional backing, but that's a lesson for another day)
  • dewey 1y ago
    I guess you could say the same thing without sounding so condescending.
• bberrry 1y ago
  Have you had any significant issues with scams? In my home country we have a huge problem of scammers calling and tricking elderly people to transfer their savings with a similar instant payment app.
  • lucasoshiro 1y ago
    We have scams just like any other place and technology. I don't think that Pix made it easier. btw, Pix is not an app, it is a service/infrastructure that can be used by any bank
  • jowea 1y ago
    Yeah it is a thing, lots of different scams to watch out. And being held at gunpoint and made to send a transfer is also a concern.
  • maronato 1y ago
    Scams are a social problem that can't be solved with technology alone. That said, Pix includes several features to help mitigate them: The recipient's name and part of their ID are displayed on the confirmation page. This allows you to verify their identity, as the name must be linked to a real ID. Users must set transaction and daily limits, with any changes taking effect only after 24–48 hours.People are encouraged to maintain lower limits. Since transactions are tied to real individuals, it becomes easier for law enforcement to track down the recipient after a scam is identified.
• xenospn 1y ago
  Brazil is amazing. I bought a coconut from an old man who was walking barefoot on the beach using my phone.
  • noman-land 1y ago
    Why was he using your phone?
  • mondobe 1y ago
    Why was the beach using your phone?
• theideaofcoffee 1y ago
  It’s truly remarkable and makes any interaction with a US-based payment system look ancient in comparison. One to two business days to make an ACH? Ugh, please. People still using paper checks? Get with the times.
• IG_Semmelweiss 1y ago
  The good thing is that Pix shows it will work for many, many years. The bad thing is that Pix shows it will work for many, many years.
• voxleone 1y ago
  >>I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. Lucky you. I've been living here since i was born. :( Pix is surreal. It was launched in the Bolsonaro (mal)administration, designed by the proverbially incompetent public work force, and is as Orwellian as can be. Its code is nowhere to be found. The funniest thing is that is has been adopted feverishly by the rabid right wing crazies, the same lot who want to destroy everything 'government'. I take pleasure in listing three of the problems: 1. Lack of Transparency 2. Potential for Abuse A government-controlled payment system centrally-controlled, with no auditability? Oh please give me more (/s) 3. Censorship and Political Control
  • lucasoshiro 1y ago
    Bolsonaro didn't even know what Pix was: https://exame.com/economia/questionado-por-apoiador-bolsonaro-nao-sabia-o-que-era-o-pix/ https://exame.com/economia/questionado-por-apoiador-bolsonar...
    • Vox_Leone 1y ago
      But i have said nothing about Bolsonaro's lack of awareness -- his monumental ignorance is a known fact, mind you, and that is not the core of my argument.
  • hcarvalhoalves 1y ago
    Correcting the blatant misinformation about the topic: - PIX project started in 2016, public launch in 2020 - It was not "launched" by any President; the Brazilian Central Bank is an independent authority, with it own mandate, not a branch of the executive power - PIX was co-developed with institutions of the financial sector - It's a protocol that participants must implement, not an app. The specification is even on GitHub. I don't know what you mean by "its code is nowhere to be found". - The Brazilian Central Bank is acknowledged as a benchmark, rather than "proverbially incompetent public work force"
    • mndgs 1y ago
      It's based on ISO20022 messaging standard. Networking and security is typically custom in each country/standardized payment system.
• Xunjin 1y ago
  The world needs to implement Pix. I truly believe that is a system which can replace SWIFT with just a intermediary, with a virtual currency that exchange rate between the 2 countries in the operation, this way the world can have a freedom outside dollar and really fast transactions.
  • skeletal88 1y ago
    Europe has SEPA payments. They are very fast and reliable, and separate from Swift.
    • graemep 1y ago
      I have only come across SEPA as a means of making transfers between bank accounts. Can it be used for payments too (e.g. instead of a credit card)? It is also single currency - Euro only, right? Swift is global. Dealing with many currencies and laws (e.g. countries with capital controls) is very complex.
      • amelius 1y ago
        Also, does it support micropayments?
        • mndgs 1y ago
          Yes, min transfer 0.01 EUR
      • mndgs 1y ago
        SEPA also works for SEK now, other EU currencies are in pipeline. Swift is just a messaging standard and a message exchange network (distributed). SEPA is that, plus a settlement system (in a nutshell). That allows for speed and much more (instant payments, request to pay, pay by phone number, credit/debit transfers, etc). You're bound to deal with currencies once you make any kind of transaction that originates in one currency and settles (finishes) in another.
    • OvbiousError 1y ago
• kylebenzle 1y ago
  Love that you tell us how amazing the government run digital currency but end it with a throw away statement about how the open source version will never "stand a chance". Just like how no one uses Linux and Firefox died 20 years ago.
  • mixmastamyk 1y ago
    Cryptocurrency != OSS.
    • kylebenzle 1y ago
      I would be interested to know what your definition of free and open source software is. But for the record Bitcoin and it's cousins are the exact definition of free and open source software as it is both free and open source. Just because you don't like it doesn't change the facts.
  • deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
• AlienRobot 1y ago
  >Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Until this line I forgot crypto was even competing!
  • bonestamp2 1y ago
    Pix sounds great for most people and probably a good replacement for government issued paper notes and metal coins. But, the crypto purists like crypto that is not controlled by the government or the banks. Pix would obviously fail at attracting those crypto fans.
• olalonde 1y ago
  > I've even had homeless people ask me for Pix instead of change on multiple occasions. Sounds like WeChat Pay. It's been years now that beggars in China only carry QR codes. > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. They solve a different problem or have the potential to: predictable/unbiased money issuance and on/off ramp for payment platforms.
  • tetris11 1y ago
    I wish the homeless in London did this, I'd happily give a few pounds here and there if it were easy to. Back when I had cash on me at all times, I would think nothing of it, just toss a coin. Now in our cashless society, I found myself at a loss to do anything about the people suffering in front of me
    • phillc73 1y ago
      You could try carrying cash again, especially just a few coins for the homeless.
      • reaperducer 1y ago
        You could try carrying cash again, especially just a few coins for the homeless. I make a point of carrying cash. Especially for buskers. It's just so simple to push the "cash back" button at the PoS when I'm buying something else. (I miss the days when you could buy a CD from a talented busker.)
    • paleotrope 1y ago
      You could donate to your chosen homeless assistance charity and just carry cards that explain how to get assistance from the same org.
      • mulderc 1y ago
        Maybe not true everywhere but in all the towns I have lived in the homeless were well aware of organizations that provide assistance. No need to carry a card about it.
• deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
• seydor 1y ago
  What about tax evading people? Is the system used to tax audit people?
  • Fidelix 1y ago
    Yes. Every single transaction is open for the government to inspect. There is zero privacy in pix in relation to government surveillance.
  • matheusmoreira 1y ago
    > Is the system used to tax audit people? You bet. Every pix transaction is reported to the brazilian authorities.
  • vitorgrs 1y ago
    it works like any other bank transfer, so yes. But the bank only reports after a certain amount.
• babypuncher 1y ago
  I've been saying for over a decade that crypto makes no sense for micropayments and the only reason traditional methods don't work is because they are run by rent-seeking middlemen like VISA. Watching the Indian and Brazillian governements solve this problem by by building the payment networks themselves and removing the profit incentive has felt vindicating.
  • matheusmoreira 1y ago
    > removing the profit incentive You're far too optimistic. The current administration is trying to work itself out of a major economic crisis and there's nothing they would like more than to tax the crap out of every single Pix transaction.
    • owebmaster 1y ago
      Major economic crisis? 4 years growing >= 3% doesn't look like a crisis to me.
      • deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      • chgs 1y ago
        I assume op is talking about if it were implemented in the US.
        • owebmaster 1y ago
          Sure not, he is just a common type of brazilians we have here called "viralatas".
        • matheusmoreira 1y ago
          Not at all. I thought twice before discussing this because brazilian politics aren't the point of this thread. The fact is Brazil is facing a major crisis due to stupid fiscal policy. Government spending is high and taxes need to make up for it. They were stupid enough to increase taxes on fuels, thereby making everything more expensive. This is a country with obscenely high interest rates, currently at over 14% per year. It's just ridiculous. And inflation is still hovering between 4% to 5% per year, just under pandemic levels. The solution is for the government to stop spending money. They don't want to do that, they want to increase taxes instead. As a result, we're at record breaking taxation levels, last year Brazil achieved its highest tax revenue since 1995. The current administration spent the last two years crying about the central bank's high interest rates. I can't even fathom what'd happen to this country if they got what they wanted. Mercifully, central bank has some degree of autonomy from their stupidity. After a couple years they get to appoint the head of the central bank. It turned out even their own guy wasn't stupid enough to lower the rates. I think the only reason they haven't taxed Pix yet is the fact Pix is too popular already. I have no doubt they're still gonna manage to increase revenue by cross referencing Pix data for tax purposes.
• matheusmoreira 1y ago
  > I've been living in Brazil for the last 20 years. > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Yeah, if you enjoy having your money one hundred percent controlled by the brazilian government. I can't think of a more frightening proposition. You do realize this is the country that once suddenly confiscated everybody's money directly from their bank accounts, right? Why did they do that? Runaway inflation. Just like its fellow latin american neighbors, Brazil has mismanaged all of its currencies and it will inflate the real to zero just like all the others, it's merely a matter of time. Just look at the country's economic situation. BRL is an absolute garbage currency. Why would you even want to hold onto this crap? You're better off holding USD if you can. You're better off holding real property if you've got the capital. You're better off holding bitcoins. Cryptocurrency? They're basically the light at the end of the tunnel. You say you've lived here 20 years. Surely you know that judges are basically gods in this country. And we have judges admitting in writing that it's essentially impossible for them to seize or in any way touch your bitcoins without your secret keys. Do you seriously believe they have no chance? In this place? They're basically the solution to nearly every single problem in the "government is stupid" category. Surely you know that the brazilian government sucks at pretty much everything except taxing you. And you're advocating for a system that essentially implements nation wide financial surveillance. Because our number one priority is to make taxation of an already heavily taxed people even more efficient, right? So that the politicians and judge kings can enjoy their world tours on tax payer money? Pix is very convenient. That's all it is, and unfortunately that's all it needs to be to win the hearts of people. People won't be smiling after the government starts blocking their Pix keys for arbitrary reasons, preventing them from participating in society.
  • ks2048 1y ago
    If you're thinking worst-case scenarios - what about if the government simply puts you in a cell and beats you until you give them your crypto keys? The only hope for any system is if the people fight to not live within these kinds of fascist states. Crypto is not some magic solution - and has a lot of downsides which are mentioned often.
    • matheusmoreira 1y ago
• timewizard 1y ago
  Wow. Reminds me of cash. Which has all those same properties.
• WinstonSmith84 1y ago
  > Cryptocurrencies don't stand a chance. Now, try to use Pix outside of Brazil - it's not even used in other Mercosur countries, what's the chance of having that adopted in other countries... And, that's problem #1. How much do you trust your government with your money? A system like Pix don't stand a chance to get a worldwide adoption - maybe people are naive but governments won't unify to adopt a common system controlled by just a single entity / country. What we may however end up with, are dozens of systems like Pix, one for each country, union, etc. Still cryptocurrencies as-is remain relevant (see point 1)
  • dakial1 1y ago
    Pix proposition is very valuable for governments, as it is the best way of controlling transactions, inside the country and cross-border. To you second point, I think the pix penetration/popularity proves that the majority of the people trust the government for that. There are 2 key reasons for its success: It was mandatory for Banks to adhere to the system and there are no fees for using it. Once multiple countries have their own PIX, they just need to build a federation structure to connect them and allow cross-border transactions. Crypto-currencies have their place with people who don't trust the government, want to speculate and/or simply want to do tax evasion, but they are not and probably never will be mainstream as a transaction medium.
    • ethbr1 1y ago
      iTunes / Steam vs piracy is relevant here. Most people want something that works well in the ways they care about. People turned to piracy because it was a superior experience to the then-distribution-models. Then, the majority of people didn't care that iTunes / Steam cost money and had DRM, because it provided a superior experience to piracy. People want an outcome, easily, reliably: they don't care about the method of getting that outcome.
    • rat87 1y ago
      Cash is arguably more secure and likely less traceable and easier to use if you don't trust governments. I don't see much use case for crypto other then illegal activities (although possibly not always immoral)
• m463 1y ago
  wikipedia doesn't say much about it. I wonder about a few things. Is it safe? I'm pretty sure everyone not carrying cash is very good for physical safety, but can someone be coerced into emptying their bank account at knifepoint? Are there scams? Can stolen money be retrieved?
  • PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
    Presumably it has the same simple safeguards that a US system like Zelle or Venmo have. I needed to pay my sister-in-law $1300 the other day, and forgot that I have a $500/day transaction limit in place for such transfers, at my own choosing (setup when I opened the account).
    • m463 1y ago
      I thought zelle was riddled with fraud?
      • PaulDavisThe1st 1y ago
        Perhaps. I use it to get cash to family members, no issues.
    • rmsaksida 1y ago
      Yeah Pix lets you choose limits. There's decent granularity for those, you can pick max $ per day, per transfer, per period, and per device. There's a caveat that when you increase a limit it takes a day or two to come into effect (basically to avoid people being forced to increase their limits by criminals).
  • tekno45 1y ago
    what system protects you from being coerced at knife point?
    • m463 1y ago
      Writing a personal check? Stolen cellphone? Cryptocurrencies are full of scams because you can't put the money back, and some are anonymous.
• yieldcrv 1y ago
  Wise's unsupported business list is two pages long https://wise.com/us/acceptable-use-policy https://wise.com/us/acceptable-use-policy and the transaction size limits is also too low, for me (I think you can send multiple in quick succession though) to avoid random fintech platform and bank scrutiny for normal transactions and the higher scrutiny given to international transfers, I've used crypto for over a decade. For investment, to pay or be paid by vendors in other countries. Places where paypal/wise/revolute/n26 will flag, hold, or western union was the only option. This hasn't changed in that decade, only more onramps and offramps for crypto has changed for more proliferation. once our crypto is within our respective domestic jurisdictions, cashing out typically has an extremely fast, non-scrutinized option, similar in speed to Pix another comment mentioned that the Bank of International Settlements is working on instant cross border transactions, I suspect the scrutiny and transaction size limits will remain inferior to the unlimited size that crypto provides, and lack of scrutiny that a transaction converted to a domestic transaction will provide. Been using stablecoins for a decade and the transaction costs have dropped as blockspace has become more abundant, and the stablecoin issuers create and redeem for free. there is also the benefit of not needing the domestic currency or banking rails, since the crypto ecosystem has many investment options for different risk profiles, and many vendors to pay for goods and services. It is very common that people do not find this competitive because they aren't aware they have a problem, or don't have a problem. But many people do encounter a friction once they branch out into another industry to try to change their circumstances, or earn larger amounts. That attracts enough people to crypto.
  • hardwaresofton 1y ago
    Where do you find crypto-native vendors?
    • yieldcrv 1y ago
      In pretty much any active telegram group or discord for a crypto project And if you start your own community, people come out of the woodwork early on or after any AMA session Outside of that there are job boards and word of mouth
• atum47 1y ago
  Kinda of depend on your bank though. I know several banks that screw up leaving the pix system offline.
• unstatusthequo 1y ago
  I don't understand the willingness of the masses to willingly give governments complete access to all of their transaction data. At least in the U.S. bank transactions are feebly masked by institutions. I have no doubt the government gets bank transaction data, but with Pix, it's just making it even easier to monitor what you're doing. Is it that the transparency makes it feel good? No middleman selling it or giving the facade of private transactions? I do not see how this is better than cryptocurrency, which, while not fully anonymous aside from Monero, is at least decentralized.
  • Philpax 1y ago
    Well, unlike cryptocurrency, it works reliably and quickly, does not require you to manage your own keys, and provides recourse if things go wrong. Those are pretty strong points in its favour.
  • immibis 1y ago
    "Is the government spying on me?" tends to be a concern that is secondary to things like "Am I getting paid?" and "Can I buy groceries?" Technologists repeatedly get this wrong. The best money system is the one that lets me buy groceries in exchange for working, not the one that's cryptographically unbreakable. Unless I'm running an illegal internet-based drug empire, in which case, the ones that aren't cryptographically unbreakable are disqualified, since I'd need the government to not be able to trace the money flow in my illegal drug empire. But even real illegal drug empires that are not internet-based mostly use government-issued currency, with measures taken to hinder tracing!
• mmooss 1y ago
  Are you worried about the power the central bank has? What if they deny service to or apprehend the assets of people they politically dislike? Also couldn't they crush any hope of anyone's profitable business? Could a person or business function without it? What about in ten years? What if they track people by their transaction and built profiles of them? They could essentially make it too dangerous to do business to people who are disliked.
  • irusensei 1y ago
    I don’t know why you’ve been downvoted. In fact in Brazil people got their financial operations restricted for expressing their opinions on the internet. Pix is an authoritarian government wet dream.
• scotty79 1y ago
  It's so nice to have an example of how nice things could be if we don't let corporations nickle and dime us for crappy rent-seeking service.