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Things I Won't Work With: Dioxygen Difluoride (2010)
- blantonl 2y agoThis guy's writing style makes him a worldwide treasure, and probably inspired a few young chemists. I'll always read and re-read his blog posts when they are posted here.
- cperciva 2y agoFOOF, not to be confused with F00F (a bug in the Pentium which allowed unprivileged processes to lock up the system): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_F00F_bug https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_F00F_bug
- sortalongo 2y ago> 433 kcal/mole For reference, TNT is 1kcal/g. This is 6.2 kcal/g.
- moffkalast 2y agoLess of a FOOF and more of a BOOM
- __MatrixMan__ 2y agoIn case you weren't dissuaded by the article, here's the synthesis procedure that it starts off by referencing: https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0022-1139(00)80341-3 https://sci-hub.st/https://doi.org/10.1016/S0022-1139(00)803...
- mmonaghan 2y agoI love Derek Lowe's writing. I think I've read most of his articles but this series is my favorite.
- narrator 2y agoA. G. Streng would probably have been forgotten about like so many if he hadn't been such a risk taking experimental chemist. Now someone's probably going to make a movie or comic book about him.
- facile3232 2y ago[dead]
- credit_guy 2y agoDerek Lowe would never work with it, but this wikipedia page [1] lists 4 rocket propellant choices that contain F2O2 as the oxydizer. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_rocket_propellant#Bipropellants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_rocket_propellant#Bipro...
- dfox 2y agoThese are mixtures of fluorine and oxygen, not FOOF.
- BizarroLand 2y agoWhat is the difference between F2O2 and FOOF? Just the structure?
- jandrewrogers 2y agoOne of the fun parts of chemistry is that most chemicals that ordinarily exist are quite far from having the most extreme possible properties that you can ascribe to a chemical. It doesn’t really matter what the property is. This is almost by definition, as “extreme properties” is roughly a synonym for “extremely unfavorable thermodynamics”. Nonetheless, chemists are obsessed with these because in theory you can engineer chemicals with completely implausible, or at the very least counter-intuitive, properties in a lab if you can figure out how to do it. It is the equivalent of extreme performance-engineering geekery in software. You do it because you can, not necessarily because you have a use case. Topics like “theoretical limits of high explosive power” [0] and a lot of other things that will put you on a government list are something chemists definitely geek out on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octanitrocubane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octanitrocubane
- stuaxo 2y ago2010 being 15 years ago is making me feel pretty ancient.
- tim333 2y agoThe article is good stuff. It's a shame he's now having to be writing Crisis, Part IX etc about the Trump admin trying to trash things. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43418192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43418192)
- perihelions 2y agoPreviously: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=dioxygen%20difluoride https://hn.algolia.com/?q=dioxygen%20difluoride And others in the series: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=things%20won%27t%20work https://hn.algolia.com/?q=things%20won%27t%20work https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-work-with https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/things-i-wont-wo... High overlap with: (rocket fuels) https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ignition%20informal https://hn.algolia.com/?q=ignition%20informal
- wiredfool 2y agoAbsolute classic of the genera At seven hundred freaking degrees, fluorine starts to dissociate into monoatomic radicals, thereby losing its gentle and forgiving nature. If the paper weren't laid out in complete grammatical sentences and published in JACS, you'd swear it was the work of a violent lunatic.
- pixl97 2y agoAh yes, FOOF. The last sound you hear before you melt, explode, blow up, and disassociate at a molecular level.
- m4rtink 2y agoAnd all of that at the same time! ;-)
- mouse_ 2y agoI clicked that permalink to lateral science ("Blown up or poisoned") and unfortunately the website appears to be hacked. :(
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- doug-moen 2y agoThe page is archived, and it is a fun read: https://web.archive.org/web/20111229065146/http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Fluorine.html https://web.archive.org/web/20111229065146/http://www.latera...
- bovermyer 2y agoI wonder if you can still order a kilo of "Satan's kimchi" from that supplier in China. If you ever could.
- rbanffy 2y agoCheck the address. If the building is still standing, then no.
- araes 2y agoThey don't appear to offer Dioxygen Difluoride (O2F2, CAS: 7783-44-0) [1] any longer. [1] https://commonchemistry.cas.org/detail?cas_rn=7783-44-0 https://commonchemistry.cas.org/detail?cas_rn=7783-44-0 Closest they now offer is Tungsten difluoride dioxide (WO2F2, CAS: 14118-73-1). [2] [2] http://www.sagechem.com/product/1037013 http://www.sagechem.com/product/1037013 If you go to: R501 Tower A, New Youth Plaza, 8 Jia Shan Road, Hangzhou, China [3] you could ask in person. [3] https://www.hxchem.net/English/hycontactlizi3865.html https://www.hxchem.net/English/hycontactlizi3865.html Almost interested in sending them an email out of boredom just to see whether they make it with custom synthesis.
- stuartjohnson12 2y ago> Hangzhou Sage Chemical Company. They offer it in 100g, 500g, and 1 kilo amounts, which is interesting, because I don't think a kilo of dioxygen difluoride has ever existed. Someone should call them on this - ask for the free shipping, and if they object, tell them Amazon offers it on this item. Serves 'em right. Morons. Gold
- leoc 2y agoSomeone finding themselves obliged to make and deliver a kilo of this stuff would be a strong opening for a shounen manga.
- JoshTriplett 2y agoMore likely an isekai story, for variety over the usual truck.
- s0rce 2y agoSome chemical suppliers seem to have autogenerated items, some/many are non-sense and I guess they just hope that you find something and they can make it? I found the example below a while ago but they have since removed it. https://www.nanochemazone.com/product/argon-powder/ https://www.nanochemazone.com/product/argon-powder/
- ahazred8ta 2y agoThe argon powder is still there. Great for Apr01. https://www.nanochemazone.com/argon-powder/ https://www.nanochemazone.com/argon-powder/ -- https://web.archive.org/web/20250331192328/https://www.nanochemazone.com/argon-powder/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250331192328/https://www.nanoc...
- LorenPechtel 2y agoIs argon powder actually impossible? Of course it couldn't exist as pictured but below 80K does anything prohibit it?
- GarnetFloride 2y agoThe Rocketdyne Tripropellant rocket had great specific impulse, one of the best. But-- there are many reasons it never caught on: one of the byproducts was FOOF, along with other things like hydrofluoric acid.
- rbanffy 2y agoSounds OK in vacuum...
- Sharlin 2y agoIf you want to actually get momentum out of a rocket, the reaction products are going to touch the combustion chamber walls and the nozzle. While film cooling can help with minimizing heat transfer from the hot stuff, I doubt it’s enough to keep this stuff from eating your engine from the inside.
- shadowgovt 2y ago"These modern SpaceX kids and their fancy reusables. Back in my day, when we went to space, we used the whole engine!"
- narag 2y agoSomething like this? https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/vpu3fv/lockheed_sr71_blackbird_the_plane_that_was/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/vpu3fv/lockheed_s...
- rbanffy 2y agoThat’s what engine-rich exhaust is for.
- Sharlin 2y agoHmm, I wonder if anyone has tried to use ablative coatings in a rocket engine.
- rbanffy 2y agoI remember this article and I'm laughing before I even click the link. What a delightful read. Even more delightful I've never encountered this molecule.
- ourmandave 2y agoDioxygen Difluoride That both words start with DIe! is enough to warn me off.
- Ygg2 2y agoDihydorgen Dioxide. Oh no!
- jerf 2y agoNot the best example. Hydrogen peroxide is actually rather nasty when highly pure. I mean, it's got nothing on FOOF, not many things do, but it's still in a class where it needs to be handled with care and shouldn't be handed to non-professionals. Don't be fooled by the fact it's sold in grocery stores at low concentrations.
- Ygg2 2y agoSure. We also call it bleach :P
- jerf 2y agoBleach, when people refer to the general product you can buy in the grocery store called "bleach", is sodium hypochlorite, not hydrogen peroxide. You can call hydrogen peroxide bleach, or a bleaching agent, but if you ask your significant other for "bleach" you're not going to get hydrogen peroxide.
- Ygg2 2y agoSpeak for yourself, we have/had a bottle of it lying around. Used for bleaching hair and as a cleaning agent. It's not Clorox, but actually says hydrogen peroxide (low dosage though).
- shadowgovt 2y agoNot as bad as FOOF, but still burns on contact to an open sore.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago> fluorine starts to dissociate into monoatomic radicals, thereby losing its gentle and forgiving nature. But that's how you get it to react with oxygen to make a product that's worse in pretty much every way. That kind of prose is why I love reading this chap's stuff.
- genocidicbunny 2y agoThere's something reminiscent of Terry Pratchett's style to Derek's "Things I Won't Work With" series.
- Bluestein 2y agoThis makes the rounds here every so oft, and I always read it again, seconded ...
- stackedinserter 2y agoFOOF-sulfur rocket engine would be fun.
- GarnetFloride 2y agoThat would be most definitely be classed as Type-3 fun.
- IlikeKitties 2y agoNot a Chemist but reminded me about this article: https://gizmodo.com/chlorine-trifluoride-the-chemical-that-sets-fire-to-as-1715935811 https://gizmodo.com/chlorine-trifluoride-the-chemical-that-s... > Just to get the ball rolling, here’s a few of the more unusual things chlorine trifluoride is known to set fire to on contact: glass, sand, asbestos, rust, concrete, people, pyrex, cloth, and the dreams of children…
- LorenPechtel 2y agoMakes me wonder if it could burn a fire elemental. :) They seem to model any chemical damage as "acid" and fire elementals aren't immune to acid so I would be inclined to say it would.
- btilly 2y agoDerek Lowe also did chlorine trifluoride: https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-you-time https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/sand-won-t-save-yo....
- CommieBobDole 2y ago"It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers"
- gmueckl 2y agoThis is a quote from "Ignition!" The particular quoted passage from that book is one of the highlights of the unique ironic tone the author used to describe real and dangerous chemical research. The book firmly establishes its tone with the first two pictures at the front: a successful rocket engine test and the remaining rubble of the same test stand after a failed test.
- banannaise 2y agoI suppose Derek's writing style is similar enough that it's easy to accidentally credit him for that line. I have to wonder whether Clark's influence is a significant contributor to his writing style. It would be fun to ask him. They could, of course, have come to it independently.
- ubermonkey 2y agoThere are two kinds of popular reposts in the world. Most are Type 1, which is "meh, this again" followed by a scroll away. This is an excellent example of Type 2, which is "Oh boy! I get to read this again!" (See also: the SR71 speed check story; the story of Mel, the Real Programmer; etc.)
- MaKey 2y agoI'd like to add the "We can't send mail more than 500 miles" story to that list: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
- ubermonkey 2y agoOH, absolutely. That's another gem!
- PebblesRox 2y agoAh, the SR-71 was new to me, thank you! https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blackbird-speed-check-story https://www.thesr71blackbird.com/Aircraft/Stories/sr-71-blac... http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html
- shadowgovt 2y agoAh, good ol' FOOF: the chemical with the convenient name-synchronicity to what it will do to you!
- spacedcowboy 2y agoChemical nominative determinism at its best.
- formerly_proven 2y agoThere’s also FOOOF and FOOOOF, as well as FOOOOOF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_fluoride# https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_fluoride#
- salgernon 2y agoKind of like CAR CAAR etc.
- NooneAtAll3 2y agoCarbon Argonite? =)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- relwin 2y agoYouTube chemists visit Dr. Kraus' fluorine lab in Germany: https://youtu.be/UzIH6raTxyE?si=74Pfn0i8Whq09Iim https://youtu.be/UzIH6raTxyE?si=74Pfn0i8Whq09Iim
- speckx 2y agoRelevant https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/ https://what-if.xkcd.com/40/
- philipwhiuk 2y agoGood old FOOF
- zidad 2y agoFound my next metal band name, thanks!
- the__alchemist 2y agoIdeally makes heavy use of pyrotechnics.
- tonetegeatinst 2y agoHave already read this before and was interesting. I did some research and inquiry and found out you can in fact get florine gas....and they can even compress it in tanks if you want.
- api 2y agoI think there's some stuff in a book called Ignition about experiments using Fluorine as an oxidizer in rocket engines to get a little better specific impulse than oxygen. Only problem is that the exhaust is hydrofluoric acid at thousands of degrees. Yipe.
- chasd00 2y ago> a book called Ignition that book is really good and has some interesting hidden treasures, like a couple of sentences about adding silicon oil to the fuel mixture to create a self-ablating film on the combustion chamber. I think some amateur bi-prop engine guys use that in their fuel setups. It's funny how the book ends after all that research and exotic chemicals with JP-1 and liquid O2 are still pretty much the best combination.
- wiredfool 2y agoAnd the bit about using dimethyl mercury as a monopropellant.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nottorp 2y agoIgnition has that lovely paragraph about some fluorine based fuel leaking out of the truck that was transporting it* and going through the road surface and then through the half a meter of concrete and stone under the asphalt, alien style. * the only way to move that fuel was in a refrigerated cistern... at a temp so low that the steel it was made of became brittle and cracked. I think it's quoted in one of Derek Lowe's articles about fluorine compounds too.
- api 2y agoRetcon: the Xenomorphs were a form of life based around fluorine chemistry, which provides a physically plausible mechanism for how their blood eats through anything. Of course that breaks the idea of them incubating in humans, since their biochemistry would react explosively with ours, but that never made sense anyway.
- pazimzadeh 2y agohopefully this isn't trending because of the recent controversy about fluoride in tap water?
- tverbeure 2y agoI will always reread the story about Satan's Kimchi.
- kinnth 2y ago[flagged]
- RandomBacon 2y agoBit rot: the article links to http://www.lateralscience.co.uk http://www.lateralscience.co.uk which is now just an advertisement for online gambling.
- philipkglass 2y agoHere's a good snapshot of that page as it appeared in 2010, when this article linked to it: https://web.archive.org/web/20100430182802/http://www.lateralscience.co.uk/Fluorine/Fluorine.html https://web.archive.org/web/20100430182802/http://www.latera...
- cwillu 2y agoFOOF, not to be confused with the FLOOF's that everyone wants to work with