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I think the crazy thing about ANPR/ALPR is just quite how simple it is to create a massive panopticon. The UK has a fairly established national ANPR system, and
by noodlesUK 2y ago
I think the crazy thing about ANPR/ALPR is just quite how simple it is to create a massive panopticon. The UK has a fairly established national ANPR system, and it generates on the order of 90M records per day [1]. All of this data is available to various law enforcement agencies. If you drive, you're probably being recorded in a way accessible to the PNC every day.
Because of how effective this is for catching even fairly minor violations like failure to pay vehicle tax, number plate cloning is becoming pretty common (comparatively) in the UK. This means that you can easily get swept up in a police dragnet because someone has stolen your car's identity.
[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-anpr-service-data-protection-impact-assessment/national-anpr-service-data-protection-impact-assessment-accessible#:~:text=90%20million https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-anpr-ser...
- 4ndrewl 2y agoAnd chances are a large proportion of them have got Google/Apple recording the locations of their devices too. We do it to ourselves these days.
- noodlesUK 2y agoI would say there’s a pretty significant difference between something like phone geolocation data, which is not very practical to search, especially for Apple devices, and in any case usually requires at least a superficial level of scrutiny, and a database that any old police officer can just run a query on as and when they feel like it.
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoThey don't need access to your device. The Police can use records from the mobile operators to track device movements.
- noodlesUK 2y agoYes, they can, however I don't believe this is quite as straightforward as just looking up the data for a particular vehicle on your police computer. Looking up the ANPR data on a vehicle is only marginally more complex than looking up a person's driving license details or similar. My understanding is that in order to do a reverse geofence request, or look up a specific device, it's a lot more complicated, and these days you're only going to get cell site information rather than precise GPS data (as was possible by asking Google in the past).
- mmh0000 2y agoWell... not entirely true. Cell Providers will sell data to anyone, then companies like Tectonix GEO[1] will slap a pretty UI on top of that data. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=cq2zuE3ISYU&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=cq2zuE3ISYU...
- 4ndrewl 2y agoAlthough those searches are recorded, which should act as a deterrent for phishing expeditions.
- aftbit 2y agoWith the very welcome changes to how Google stores location history, they will no longer be capable of answering geofence warrants. The cell carrier themselves (Verizon / T-Mobile / BT / Orange etc) can still provide some tower logon information but I'm not sure if they are storing E911 GPS info.
- walthamstow 2y agoDon't forget Ring capturing every time you enter or leave your home.
- Gigachad 2y agoNumber plate cloning should be pretty easy to spot with a network of cameras. Same plate in two spots or seen in a distance impossible to travel in the time. And then police can be alerted every time they see a plate flagged as being cloned and either find a criminal, or be able to alert the person their plate is cloned.
- shortercode 2y agoMy brother had his plates nicked a few years back. Apparently they had lightly modified his plate so that it appeared differently ( can’t recall if it was marker or tape )
- HPsquared 2y agoThey'd presumably target cars that don't drive much. (btw anyone can check any car's annual mileage from the number plate using the MOT history lookup)
- gruez 2y ago>btw anyone can check any car's annual mileage from the number plate using the MOT history lookup Can this be done anonymously? Otherwise doing such a lookup creates a paper trail, which is generally bad if you're trying to commit any crime.
- gambiting 2y agoWhat paper trail? All they can log is the IP address that made the query, and that's not enough to do anything with.
- normie3000 2y agoThat's why GP asked if the lookup was anonymous.
- gambiting 2y ago
- mytailorisrich 2y ago> Because of how effective this is for catching even fairly minor violations like failure to pay road tax, The main use of those cameras is to deter not paying road tax and not having insurance, and to spot stolen and wanted cars. It's not a problem if all number plates are stored for some time but it requires strict rules (duration of storage and access to data), which the document you linked to describes.
- aaronmdjones 2y ago> > even fairly minor violations like failure to pay road tax > The main use of those cameras is to deter not paying road tax No-one has paid a road tax in the United Kingdom since 1937. Vehicle excise duty is (currently) based on CO2 emissions (which is why EVs are subject to a £0 VED) and has always gone directly into a general government fund -- it does not maintain the roads. Of course the government could choose to spend some of that money on road upkeep, but they don't have to.
- noodlesUK 2y agoYou’re absolutely right, I’ve edited my comment to say vehicle tax rather than road tax. It’s actually one of my personal bugbears as well, so I can’t believe that I said that.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago"Road tax" is a widespread colloquial term, and that tax must be paid to be able to drive on public roads. So let's not lose ourselves in nitpicks, it brings nothing to the discussion at hand...
- kotaKat 2y agoWe have national companies like https://drndata.com/ https://drndata.com/ that aggregate LPRs from every possible source and sell it to... a lot of uses. Motorola/Vigilant cameras feed into DRN especially.
- banku_brougham 2y agoThe repo man is truly a changed character.
- lazide 2y agoOr the ever classic ‘caught in an affair’ [https://petapixel.com/2021/12/13/speed-camera-photo-sent-to-woman-exposes-husbands-affair/ https://petapixel.com/2021/12/13/speed-camera-photo-sent-to-...] And attempts to reduce the problem [https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-believes-husband-cheating-speed-camera-photo-teddy-bear-055029056.html https://au.news.yahoo.com/woman-believes-husband-cheating-sp...]
- tart-lemonade 2y agoGPS trackers and immobilizers (aka "kill switches") have also made repo work a lot easier. If you buy from low/no-credit ("buy here pay here") lots, you probably have at least one (if not both) installed.
- gnfargbl 2y agoI'm not sure that panopticon is the right word for this. Bentham's panopticon extended into the prisoners' cells, and with the intent that they would never know if they were being surveilled or not. ANPR in the UK doesn't have these characteristics. Firstly, it happens in public places only, and historically we have exactly zero expectation of privacy in public spaces in the UK. Secondly, there's no chilling effect caused by the selective and unknown application of surveillance; the cameras and computers "watch" every car equally. Overall, I can't say I love the number of ANPR cameras we have, but then I'm also not thrilled by the thought of subsidising large numbers of people who aren't willing to hold up their side of the social contract by taxing and insuring their cars.
- tredre3 2y ago> and with the intent that they would never know if they were being surveilled or not. [...] there's no chilling effect caused by the selective and unknown application of surveillance; the cameras and computers "watch" every car equally. I disagree. Nobody expects all camera footage to be reviewed by a person, so you never know if what the camera caught will ever be seen (or used against you). In that sense, it's just like the panopticon. You feel watched so you behave, but whether you are watched or not in that moment is unknown.
- gnfargbl 2y agoThat's part of my point, though: these cameras are basically never reviewed by a person. So you are reliably watched constantly, but never by a human. This does lead to the problem that the post I replied to was pointing out, namely that people often get automated fines for cloned plates. It's kind of like the opening of Brazil, if you're familiar with that film, but obviously for much lower stakes.
- curiousObject 2y agoBut we don’t know the capabilities of the machine systems watching the cameras, although we should assume they are getting more capable. So the results are unpredictable, just as they would be if humans randomly checked the cameras recordings.
- BurningFrog 2y agoSince I doubt I'm the only one who didn't know what a "panopticon" is: A "panopticon" is a concept originally designed as a type of prison by the English philosopher Jeremy Bentham in the late 18th century. It’s a circular building with a central watchtower where a single guard can observe all the inmates in their cells, which are arranged around the perimeter. The twist? The inmates can’t see into the tower, so they never know if they’re being watched. This setup was meant to induce self-discipline—prisoners would behave as if they’re always under surveillance, even if no one’s actually looking.
- cozzyd 2y agoAlso a kickass album by Isis (a bit unfortunately named now...).
- johnisgood 2y agoNot to be confused with ISIS, lmao. Here is the album: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF6Qzd9BLSQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF6Qzd9BLSQ
- kylebenzle 2y ago[flagged]
- wrboyce 2y ago[flagged]
- intrasight 2y agoAm curious. How, with 17th century technology, could you have a geometry where I can see you but you can't see me? Glass treatment? Narrow viewing port?
- thatcat 2y agoa circular room looking out from a high point facing an exterior round wall of cells that look in
- gambiting 2y agoAnd yet, if your car gets stolen thieves don't even bother putting fake/cloned plates on it most of the time - police could in theory look up where the car was last seen using ANPR but either they don't have the time or they don't actually have the ability. >>Because of how effective this is for catching even fairly minor violations like failure to pay road tax It's not really, I don't believe so anyway. Keep seeing posts from various police forces around the UK about so-and-so car being stopped, no tax since 2022 for instance. And I'm like....ok great, but how come it took you 3 years to find them??
- lazide 2y agoTypically cars get stolen for temporary-ish use - to commit a crime somewhere, go joyriding, to strip for parts, etc. It might only be on the road for 2-8 hours. Maybe a day. To catch someone during the window of opportunity it would make sense requires a lot of things to happen in quick succession - the owner needs to notice, a report with all the necessary details needs to be entered, and they need to go by a reader - and an officer needs to follow up in a timely fashion before the ‘lead’ goes stale. Sometimes departments will have their acts together enough that it’s possible, but usually they don’t. Police departments are part of the government too, after all. Most of the time if the car is found at all, it will be found days later abandoned on the other side of town, or on blocks. The ‘best’ often have an officer (or 2) obsessed with catching stolen cars, and some of them will catch 10-12 in a shift. It’s genuinely impressive watching them work.
- debarshri 2y agoI think ANPR comes very handy in US when there is an amber alert.
- Hnrobert42 2y agoI wonder if such LPR systems and/or Amber alerts have yet been used to intercept pregnant women traveling out of state for an abortion.
- Lammy 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children
- pinko 2y agoEvery civil liberties infringement (e.g., warrantless search and seizure) comes in very handy for solving crimes. That's why the constitution specifically places limit on it, because you have to balance that with the loss of liberty.
- tgv 2y agoI worked for a company that builds traffic info systems based on such cameras, but we didn’t share any of that data, unless given a warrant.
- spoaceman7777 2y agoDidn't yet. Which is how most of this technology starts out, and is the largest problem with people building these systems. See: courts ruling that 23andMe can sell their data yesterday
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoDid you see the logs of how much data was released?
- tgv 2y agoThere were no logs. We were the only ones with the decryption key.
- elric 2y agoWait until you find out about the thousands of camera's on public transport. At least cars being tracked are just cars. On public transport the tracking is much more invasive (and pervasive).
- troyvit 2y agoI've been watching a British spy show called Slow Horses. So far a huge chunk of season 2 is spies looking at camera surveillance footage. It sounds like it's really that bad.
- kypro 2y agoTo highlight how bad it is, I read this article as a Brit and was genuinely confused. I kept wondering what I was missing because it seemed so obvious to me that if you drove around your neighbourhood the police would be taking photos of your movements regularly on any major road. But I guess this isn't a thing in some places? While I'm not fond of the cameras monitoring my movements honestly the worst part of driving in the UK is the constant anxiety that if you do anything wrong you're going to be fined. And sometimes you arguably don't even do anything wrong they just change the rules without telling you. The updated the road near me recently from 30 to 20, they did this on the patch of road by an existing speed camera and only put one small sign up. Because most people know the road is 30 thousands and thousands of people have been fined for not realising someone updated the speed limit overnight. Similarly, in my city they're constantly making roads one way, restricting car access on certain roads, adding restrictions for diesel cars, and adding bus lanes. All have cameras so if you don't realise you're immediately fined. I even know someone who was recently fine because they were caught on camera going through a red light to get out of the way of an ambulance (they insist they did so safely). The tracking our movements is really the least of our problems.
- aliher1911 2y agoIn all fairness the highway code specifically says that you should not violate it to let ambulance pass. Might be down to sketchy council, but they normally place signs "new layout ahead" and the like when limits, lanes change.
- mjmas 2y agoViolating other road rules to let an emergency vehicle through is particularly allowed under the road rules where I am (Queensland Australia)
- underseacables 2y agoYou can make your own ALPR, it's quite easy.
- ehnto 2y agoThis has happened to me twice in Australia, and plagued a friend so much they sold their car. They couldn't afford the replate fee (and figured it would just happen again) so they gave up, I gave them a spare bicycle, which was then stolen. I can see how people lose their faith in policing competence, it was at least always resolved fairly but the stress of being accused of all that stuff, not knowing if you'll be put in jail or acquitted etc. You still bare the costs of replating a car as well.
- osrec 2y agoPNC = police national computer, I believe. It's helpful when less well known acronyms are expanded.