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Extreme poverty in India has dropped to negligible levels

233 points by suraci 2y ago

mannyv 2y ago
“One’s desires are endless, however much one gets.” Truth.
- foxglacier 2y ago
  While I admit to not having been able to read the article, this is very true. In my country, everyone has access to free healthcare, housing, food, and even tertiary education for most people, especially the poorest. But there are still endless complaints about poverty. Sometimes a person will have to live in a (free) hotel because all the immediately available free housing is in another city where they don't want to live despite being still perfectly well developed and comfortable. We'll never get rid of poverty because people keep raising the bar no matter how wealthy they get.
  - codethief 2y ago
    Free housing & food? Which country is that?
    - copx 2y ago
      The UK is infamous for housing illegal immigrants in hotels, and they don't just get free food but free money, too. Oh, and free healthcare. Free money, housing, and healthcare for everyone is also the law here in Germany, which is why we get flooded by illegal immigrants too.. ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing. You can only afford something like this if your population overwhelmingly consists of educated, skilled people with a strong work ethic who would never voluntarily sign up for welfare. Once you allow millions of foreigners into the country who are neither educated nor skilled nor have a work ethic such systems start to collapse.
      - ahoka 2y ago
        Maybe read and spread less Russian propaganda. Illegal immigrants never get anything in EU, other than Schengen entry bans.
        milesrout 2y ago
        Illegal migrants that claim asylum in Germany and Sweden have never got any public services, housing or other support? Really, that is your position?!
        anang 2y ago
        I don't think asylum seekers are typically considered illegal immigrants. I think that's more individuals who either don't seek legal status, or have tried to get a legal status but failed and stayed in the country anyway. And I don't think Sweden and Germany are giving free housing to individuals that overstayed their visas.
        BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
        I'm in France, healthcare is also for the illegals in the form of AME (Aide Médical de l'État). https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3079 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3079
        lnsru 2y ago
        Please read this article in German: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/so-viel-gibt-muenchen-fuer-fluechtlinge-aus-geheim-papier-enthuellt-93593413.html https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/so-viel-gibt-muenchen... They get not only free housing, but also free food and even a janitor! That’s better than significant part of the population does. Do you think, that delivery driver or a nurse can afford more?
      - Bayart 2y ago
        > ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing. No, it's not. The weight of illegals on the welfare system is a rounding error compared to the effects of an aging population. And if you were familiar with people in this situation rather than spitting out far-right talking points you'd know that's it's not an enviable situation and not one they yearn to stay in.
  - Elixir6419 2y ago
    Poverty perception is relative. Most people judge their position on the poor/rich scale based on their sorroundings, rather than in absolute value. Also to the point on raising the bar. I think that is not a bad thing.
    - forgotoldacc 2y ago
      This is the key point. We can look back on people who were royalty in their time, but by modern standards, they would've been living a poor life. No AC in the summer, no proper medical care and the possibility of dying from a mild tooth problem, only having access to food that's in-season, zero running water, needing to have your poop hauled away in buckets, needing to spend all day just to travel 15 km, being blamed for a random crime and executed days later with no real evidence. Being a rich person in the renaissance period seems like it'd be nice if you only look at paintings glorifying the lifestyle. But when you sit down and think about the nitty gritty daily life, it would suck compared to an average modern lifestyle. Yet the rich back then were surely quite comfortable, just like the rich today are. And the rich centuries from now will look at the mega rich today and be amazed that they lived such quaint lives without food teleporters and instant cancer zappers and weekend trips to the balmy shores of Ganymede. Saying the poor can't be dissatisfied with the inequality in society today because "things were worse in the past for the poor" can really be extended to anyone and anything. There's always something in the past that was worse than a typical bad experience today. But the past is full of horrors that we should learn from and not repeat.
      - aprilthird2021 2y ago
        > No AC in the summer, no proper medical care and the possibility of dying from a mild tooth problem, only having access to food that's in-season, zero running water, needing to have your poop hauled away in buckets, needing to spend all day just to travel 15 km, being blamed for a random crime and executed days later with no real evidence. I think this is greatly exaggerated. Actual royalty had access to vast amounts of physical and mental labor that only the billionaires of modern society could rival. No A/C? You can pay people to bring ice into your house and cool you. No medical care? You could have a surgeon invent an implement to pull an arrow out of your skull and save your life, just because you are important enough for that. Only food in season? You could pay people to bring you food from other places far away lands no one has ever seen in such seasons. Modern world has conveniences, but so many people cannot afford any labor at all. Royalty had leisure time that most modern people can barely afford.
  - allpratik 2y ago
    All the free claims of facilities here ONLY exists to support corruption. These free things are not materially helping poor people hence everyone seems to be unhappy. For example, in India it takes almost $700k per km of road construct while in the US, it takes only $120k per km to construct the road. And when it comes to other attributes like quality of the road, speed of the construction or durability of the road.... It's far worst than the USA. All the Indian govt programs only exists to support their corrupt contractors and not for helping people genuinely.
- imtringued 2y ago
  Not my experience at all. Saturation is a real phenomenon.
ksynwa 2y ago
I don't understand the significant of metrics like the international poverty line. Seems like the only point of its existence is to create a sense of progress or maybe exaggerate it. They never account for basic stuff like how many calories people get to eat, let alone the quality of nutrition. Last year I read an article saying like 30% of children in India are stunted.
- jso33 2y ago
  It is measured and there are targets - https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/hunger/ https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/hunger/
  - ksynwa 2y ago
    That's correct but my point is what kind of poverty is the poverty line measuring if it does not take into account how much people are getting to eat. This access to PPP adjusted dollar amount is clearly not a good heuristic for it because somehow extreme poverty has been alleviated while having a hunger index worse than North Korea.
    - gruez 2y ago
      >while having a hunger index worse than North Korea. Relying on North Korean statistics to make your point is... questionable
      - ksynwa 2y ago
        I don't know how World Hunger Index get their DPRK figures but that is not important. There are about 110 countries with better hunger indices than India. A country that tells its citizens that we are going to be a superpower by 20xx should not be doing that at meeting basic needs.
    - slothtrop 2y ago
      https://www.unicef.org/india/reports/indias-progress-malnutrition-and-non-communicable-diseases-insights-nfhs https://www.unicef.org/india/reports/indias-progress-malnutr... Malnourishment is also steadily diminishing. Effectively because food affordability improves as poverty diminishes. It's a good proxy.
yarapavan 2y ago
Aechive copy: https://archive.is/7O00b https://archive.is/7O00b
anshumankmr 2y ago
Even if it is neglible, it is still millions of people. Plus if industrial miracle, so to say, had been allowed to happen, this might have happened much sooner. And this country is yet to deal with the massive impact that potential impacts that AI could have on it econcomy.
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  I do think labor in India will be cheaper than using any AI for quite some time longer than in the West. I also worry that the major negative effects of AI in India will not be economic but will be social as the society is extremely low trust at the moment due to widespread corruption, criminals being lauded by the government, killings of journalists, communal tensions, huge pollution, and tons of other problems.
andsoitis 2y ago
Counter balance: “According to the 2023 Global Hunger Index, India ranks 111th out of 125 countries, with a score of 28.7, indicating a “serious” level of hunger. Although this is a slight improvement from its 2015 score of 29.2, the progress has been slow compared to countries with similar economic growth rates. India also has the highest child wasting rate in the world at 18.7%. And 35.5% of children under five are medically listed as having their growth stunted, a condition that leads to long-term developmental complications.” — https://outreach-international.org/blog/malnutrition-in-india/ https://outreach-international.org/blog/malnutrition-in-indi...
- ta20240528 2y ago
  Three significant figures for a somewhat rough measurement of poverty over a sample of a population as diverse as India should have one's BS alarms blaring. Actually both 28,7 and 29,2 = 30. Social workers playing at science.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    I fail to see how diversity in the country would change those metrics.
    - abdullahkhalids 2y ago
      Economic class is highly correlated with social, religious, ethnic, tribal class. If there are more social, religious, ethnic, tribal classes in a single country (i.e. the country is diverse) then in another, then you do need to sample more of the groups to get sample means free from systematic bias. Simple example: image you are asked to compute the mean diameter of all balls in each of two bags. You open the first bag, and it is all blue balls, and they all look very close in radius. So you measure a few and call it a day. You open the second bag, and there are balls of about 50 different colors, and it seems like all the colors have different radius. So, then to get a good result, you need to measure almost the diameter of most of the colors.
    - ta20240528 2y ago
roenxi 2y ago
The article is interesting, the headline is baffling. It seems to be claiming that it is possible to pay Indians a medium-single-figure daily wage (ie, $1,000/year) despite having 40% of the country working in the agricultural industry. Great but that myth is and was of no real interest to anyone and isn't a very useful frame for the article. India still needs to move most of the population on to doing something more productive than inefficiently looking after plants. The goal is not 1 billion people living off slightly more than $1,000/year. The goal is living standards at least an order of magnitude higher if not several orders. That requires capital, not subsistence+ farming. Which, to their credit, is what the Indians seem to be focusing on.
- sureIy 2y ago
  > inefficiently looking after plants Might be a better life than smelling exhaust gas and looking at screens for 3/4 of our existence. Then wake up and worry about AI eventually eating our jobs.
  - icetank 2y ago
    I take looking at screens in an office over breathing exhaust gases and pesticides any day. Working on a farm is hard work even in developed countries.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    By the time most of India is at the level of development that their problem is looking at screens, the cars will be battery-electric. AI has as much chance of taking your job as combine harvesters have of taking everyone's job that currently has one in India working on farms: 99%, maybe, but also 0%.
- ErigmolCt 2y ago
  From my perspective (ultimately), it's about building infrastructure, education, and industries that sustainably improve quality of life
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > India still needs to move most of the population on to doing something more productive than inefficiently looking after plants. Not sure that this should be the goal.
iamshs 2y ago
Rs. 2700 per month ($32) is the poverty threshold for Urban dwellers? That does not sound right, seems like manipulation.
- decimalenough 2y ago
  Where did you get that number? 2.15 USD = 187 INR/day = 5610 INR/month.
  - iamshs 2y ago
    Shamika Ravi, author of the study revealed the figures on her Twitter.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
But the real question is: what comes next? Just clearing the $2.15 threshold isn't enough—there's still a long road to real economic security
- ann_ip 2y ago
  Exactly what I was thinking. With population not slowing down anytime soon, what are the next steps?
  - loeg 2y ago
    What? India has a TFR of 2.01. Population growth is over.
    - triceratops 2y ago
      Population growth isn't quite over because people also live longer than before. But yeah the days of rapid growth are quite gone.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    > what are the next steps? I'd say huge investments in improving things like infrastructure (roads, water, sewage, electricity), quality of housing, etc. China has a lot of experience in this regard with huge, admittedly failed projects of building entire cities from scratch (failed because nobody actually lives there).
    - gruez 2y ago
      >China has a lot of experience in this regard with huge, admittedly failed projects of building entire cities from scratch (failed because nobody actually lives there). Build it and they will come. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoccupied_developments_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoccupied_developments_i... >Although a feature of discourse on the Chinese economy and urbanization in China in the 2010s, many developments that were initially criticized as "ghost cities" in China have since become occupied and are now functioning cities.[5][6][7][8]
pinoy420 2y ago
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profsummergig 2y ago
India really needs to work on consciousness-raising regarding sanitation/cleanliness. Modi made a start in 2014. I don't know why the momentum stopped. Some of the videos coming out of there (e.g. the recent video of the railway employee throwing a huge amount of used disposable plastic food trays off a moving train) are shocking.
- eclecticfrank 2y ago
  India is on a steady path of improvement and has awareness campaigns running that adress these issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... https://innovateindia.mygov.in/toilet-campaign/ https://innovateindia.mygov.in/toilet-campaign/ https://siwi.org/latest/the-clean-india-mission-worlds-largest-sanitation-initiative/ https://siwi.org/latest/the-clean-india-mission-worlds-large...
  - profsummergig 2y ago
    The recent Delhi election, I was watching videos of some of the slums. There were literal hills of rotting organic garbage inside the slums. With children living next to them. I had visions of Paul Ehrlich freaking out at the sight of people defecating and bathing on the roadside in Delhi. I saw photos of some of the "mohalla clinics" (free basic healthcare clinics) that the previous Delhi government had (admittedly admirably) set up. Some of them looked so dirty and structurally unsound that they wouldn't be allowed to function as holding pens for farm animals in the US. In the US, we have companies like Waste Management handle our waste. Surprises me that India doesn't have a dozen Waste Managements by now. Billion dollar unicorns/startups/whatever, innovating in turning "waste to wealth" (as Nitin Gadkari calls it). Put capitalism to use where there's a failure of non-capitalism to solve the problem. But there might be deep cultural issues. I suspect the caste system plays a part. The forward castes believe that trash management is beneath them.
    - navigate8310 2y ago
      I believe that's ingrained in the culture to live besides the filth and romanticize poverty.
ViktorRay 2y ago
China and India had similar levels of poverty 50 years ago. How come China today is so different from India today? In terms of cleanliness and poverty elimination specifically. I know China liberalized in the 80’s and India in the 90’s. So you could say that’s a 10 year difference. But China 10 years ago was still very different from India even today. Does anyone have any ideas?
- clarionbell 2y ago
  It is much harder to report on problems in China than in India for one.
  - lupusreal 2y ago
    There's no shortage of industrial and traffic accident videos coming out of China, very often showcasing horrendous working conditions and absolutely depraved levels of apathy from onlookers, which is to say that China isn't very good at suppressing videos that make them look bad. But in all of these videos, China looks 1000x more clean than India. Am I to believe that the Chinese government cares more about suppressing videos that show litter on the streets than a video of a woman slowly running over a child, putting her car in reverse and running over them again, all while people walk by and pretend they don't see it happen?
    - thatloststudent 2y ago
      Is it that hard to find? This[1] took me one search on YouTube. I agree that India is filthy, but it's not hard to find such videos for China either. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hEJKOD1ux14 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hEJKOD1ux14
      - ethan_smith 2y ago
        Do these look the same level of filthy to you? This is the capital city New Delhi (Yamuna River, which is worshipped): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83t0hdJG8AI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83t0hdJG8AI
yapyap 2y ago
What does neglible mean when talking about extreme poverty
dartharva 2y ago
By western (de-facto) standards the vast majority of Indians will still be considered under poverty.
known 2y ago
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gadders 2y ago
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- pavlov 2y ago
  Now that USAID has been thrown under the bus, it’s actually a golden opportunity for Europe to both rethink and boost aid programs. India is a crucial counterbalance to China. Now that the USA is retreating into internal bickering and giving up its global leadership, Europe should continue building ties with India and helping them lift people out of poverty.
  - john_texas 2y ago
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  - gadders 2y ago
    I'd rather taxes were spent on people in the home nations, rather than ex-colonies or other 3rd world countries. I also don't think countries should be spending on a space programme if they are still accepting aid.
    - teitoklien 2y ago
      They are not accepting aid. Read this : https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-tells-uk-we-dont-need-your-foreign-aid-1607413 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-tells-uk-we-dont-need-your-f... It’s not Indian newspaper, its british newspaper. They’ve been asking UK to stop the aid since 2008, It’s being sent out of corruption deals between UK politicians and local special interest groups who are friends with those politicians. India never asked for any of these aids. The total aid India receives is smaller than the bloody fertiliser SUBSIDY budget of the country. It’s literally trinkets and they actively do not want it. India also banned foreign contributions and aid money being sent to its local NGOs without central government permission, just to put a stop to this.
      - gadders 2y ago
        Makes sense. I hope we stop that and the disguised aid by offering preferential terms on work visas etc.
uwagar 2y ago
i dont understand how the minimum non taxable income is 12 lakhs per annum (~10000 GBP) when a generous daily wage is like 1000 rupees (~10 GBP) a day.
- teitoklien 2y ago
  India’s economy is based on Domestic consumption instead of exports. If you tax its middle class (which is people above that income). Then consumption tanks entirely, They used to tax from a much lower rate at 7lakhs per annum and it was actively crushing their domestic consumption markets. They’ve been trying to revive and boost their declining consumption economy. India’s 10% population drives >50% of entire consumption, >80% of entire retail goods consumption outside of base essential commodities.
- pwillia7 2y ago
  Trust is low corruption high and a lot of people just don't pay taxes -- historically https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37530290 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37530290
amriksohata 2y ago
Before British rule India had one of the highest GDPs in the world, it became impoverished after the loot and famines of British rule. Then it had 60+ years of corrupt and stagnant rule, in the last decade or so the people have had enough and are now voting in people only who believe in development. This is what you are seeing in this data.
- teitoklien 2y ago
  > so the people have had enough and are now voting in people only who believe in development. This is what you are seeing in this data. It is a strong reason why people praise the current Indian ruling government ive noticed both among poor masses, middle class and elite, so you’re correct. But they and the opposition all win elections there primarily on freebies, whichever party promises freebies wins in most parts of India. It’s just that people are more confident on freebies coming to them, if they vote the party in their province/state if the party is also ruling at the central level, since taxes are passed from centre to state, especially in the last 10 years with introduction of GST, etc. So yea, it is much more mixed, that just that reason, not to mention, first past the post, and uneven population sizes across different states, also change matters a lot.
keeda 2y ago
There seems to be some discussion about how this can be squared with the actual reality of poverty in India as perceived by people who live or visit there. One thing to consider is that the work (or similar recent work) by Bhalla and Bhassin that underlies this claim has been strongly criticized for using unrealistic poverty benchmarks: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/indian-government-data-conceal-poverty-increase-by-ashoka-mody-2024-03 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/indian-governme... So maybe the myth has not been undermined.
ZeroTalent 2y ago
I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the poverty line is not correct. I know this is anecdotal, but I visited nine cities in India last year (including New Delhi), and the sidewalks were full of homeless people. At night, it was literally hard to walk through some areas because people were sleeping everywhere in the streets. I've never seen anything like that in the US or Europe. I might have a huge blindspot.
kylehotchkiss 2y ago
This is wonderful news and a framework for other countries to accomplish the same. I sensed the US’ “peacekeeping” role (I know, I know) and foreign aid spending has helped much of the global south reduce extreme poverty since the 80s. That doesn’t mean people’s lives are especially comfortable but it’s an upgrade. I think historically that will be US’ largest impact, and we are unlikely to accomplish anything as significant again. I don’t mean to imply US always did a respectable or honorable job in this role (I didn’t forget what the ford and Rockefeller foundations did) Now that the US seems intent on burning every international aid project we have, I hope other countries can help fill the gap and help lift other poor countries a little higher. It seems like a reasonable thing to do.

233 points by suraci 2y ago

mannyv 2y ago

“One’s desires are endless, however much one gets.” Truth.

foxglacier 2y ago
While I admit to not having been able to read the article, this is very true. In my country, everyone has access to free healthcare, housing, food, and even tertiary education for most people, especially the poorest. But there are still endless complaints about poverty. Sometimes a person will have to live in a (free) hotel because all the immediately available free housing is in another city where they don't want to live despite being still perfectly well developed and comfortable. We'll never get rid of poverty because people keep raising the bar no matter how wealthy they get.
- codethief 2y ago
  Free housing & food? Which country is that?
  - copx 2y ago
    The UK is infamous for housing illegal immigrants in hotels, and they don't just get free food but free money, too. Oh, and free healthcare. Free money, housing, and healthcare for everyone is also the law here in Germany, which is why we get flooded by illegal immigrants too.. ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing. You can only afford something like this if your population overwhelmingly consists of educated, skilled people with a strong work ethic who would never voluntarily sign up for welfare. Once you allow millions of foreigners into the country who are neither educated nor skilled nor have a work ethic such systems start to collapse.
    - ahoka 2y ago
      Maybe read and spread less Russian propaganda. Illegal immigrants never get anything in EU, other than Schengen entry bans.
      - milesrout 2y ago
        Illegal migrants that claim asylum in Germany and Sweden have never got any public services, housing or other support? Really, that is your position?!
        anang 2y ago
        I don't think asylum seekers are typically considered illegal immigrants. I think that's more individuals who either don't seek legal status, or have tried to get a legal status but failed and stayed in the country anyway. And I don't think Sweden and Germany are giving free housing to individuals that overstayed their visas.
      - BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
        I'm in France, healthcare is also for the illegals in the form of AME (Aide Médical de l'État). https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3079 https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/vosdroits/F3079
      - lnsru 2y ago
        Please read this article in German: https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/so-viel-gibt-muenchen-fuer-fluechtlinge-aus-geheim-papier-enthuellt-93593413.html https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/so-viel-gibt-muenchen... They get not only free housing, but also free food and even a janitor! That’s better than significant part of the population does. Do you think, that delivery driver or a nurse can afford more?
    - Bayart 2y ago
      > ..and that's why these Western European welfare states are collapsing. No, it's not. The weight of illegals on the welfare system is a rounding error compared to the effects of an aging population. And if you were familiar with people in this situation rather than spitting out far-right talking points you'd know that's it's not an enviable situation and not one they yearn to stay in.
- Elixir6419 2y ago
  Poverty perception is relative. Most people judge their position on the poor/rich scale based on their sorroundings, rather than in absolute value. Also to the point on raising the bar. I think that is not a bad thing.
  - forgotoldacc 2y ago
    This is the key point. We can look back on people who were royalty in their time, but by modern standards, they would've been living a poor life. No AC in the summer, no proper medical care and the possibility of dying from a mild tooth problem, only having access to food that's in-season, zero running water, needing to have your poop hauled away in buckets, needing to spend all day just to travel 15 km, being blamed for a random crime and executed days later with no real evidence. Being a rich person in the renaissance period seems like it'd be nice if you only look at paintings glorifying the lifestyle. But when you sit down and think about the nitty gritty daily life, it would suck compared to an average modern lifestyle. Yet the rich back then were surely quite comfortable, just like the rich today are. And the rich centuries from now will look at the mega rich today and be amazed that they lived such quaint lives without food teleporters and instant cancer zappers and weekend trips to the balmy shores of Ganymede. Saying the poor can't be dissatisfied with the inequality in society today because "things were worse in the past for the poor" can really be extended to anyone and anything. There's always something in the past that was worse than a typical bad experience today. But the past is full of horrors that we should learn from and not repeat.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      > No AC in the summer, no proper medical care and the possibility of dying from a mild tooth problem, only having access to food that's in-season, zero running water, needing to have your poop hauled away in buckets, needing to spend all day just to travel 15 km, being blamed for a random crime and executed days later with no real evidence. I think this is greatly exaggerated. Actual royalty had access to vast amounts of physical and mental labor that only the billionaires of modern society could rival. No A/C? You can pay people to bring ice into your house and cool you. No medical care? You could have a surgeon invent an implement to pull an arrow out of your skull and save your life, just because you are important enough for that. Only food in season? You could pay people to bring you food from other places far away lands no one has ever seen in such seasons. Modern world has conveniences, but so many people cannot afford any labor at all. Royalty had leisure time that most modern people can barely afford.
- allpratik 2y ago
  All the free claims of facilities here ONLY exists to support corruption. These free things are not materially helping poor people hence everyone seems to be unhappy. For example, in India it takes almost $700k per km of road construct while in the US, it takes only $120k per km to construct the road. And when it comes to other attributes like quality of the road, speed of the construction or durability of the road.... It's far worst than the USA. All the Indian govt programs only exists to support their corrupt contractors and not for helping people genuinely.
imtringued 2y ago
Not my experience at all. Saturation is a real phenomenon.

ksynwa 2y ago

I don't understand the significant of metrics like the international poverty line. Seems like the only point of its existence is to create a sense of progress or maybe exaggerate it. They never account for basic stuff like how many calories people get to eat, let alone the quality of nutrition. Last year I read an article saying like 30% of children in India are stunted.

jso33 2y ago
It is measured and there are targets - https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/hunger/ https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/hunger/
- ksynwa 2y ago
  That's correct but my point is what kind of poverty is the poverty line measuring if it does not take into account how much people are getting to eat. This access to PPP adjusted dollar amount is clearly not a good heuristic for it because somehow extreme poverty has been alleviated while having a hunger index worse than North Korea.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >while having a hunger index worse than North Korea. Relying on North Korean statistics to make your point is... questionable
    - ksynwa 2y ago
      I don't know how World Hunger Index get their DPRK figures but that is not important. There are about 110 countries with better hunger indices than India. A country that tells its citizens that we are going to be a superpower by 20xx should not be doing that at meeting basic needs.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    https://www.unicef.org/india/reports/indias-progress-malnutrition-and-non-communicable-diseases-insights-nfhs https://www.unicef.org/india/reports/indias-progress-malnutr... Malnourishment is also steadily diminishing. Effectively because food affordability improves as poverty diminishes. It's a good proxy.

yarapavan 2y ago

Aechive copy: https://archive.is/7O00b https://archive.is/7O00b

anshumankmr 2y ago

Even if it is neglible, it is still millions of people. Plus if industrial miracle, so to say, had been allowed to happen, this might have happened much sooner. And this country is yet to deal with the massive impact that potential impacts that AI could have on it econcomy.

aprilthird2021 2y ago
I do think labor in India will be cheaper than using any AI for quite some time longer than in the West. I also worry that the major negative effects of AI in India will not be economic but will be social as the society is extremely low trust at the moment due to widespread corruption, criminals being lauded by the government, killings of journalists, communal tensions, huge pollution, and tons of other problems.

andsoitis 2y ago

Counter balance: “According to the 2023 Global Hunger Index, India ranks 111th out of 125 countries, with a score of 28.7, indicating a “serious” level of hunger. Although this is a slight improvement from its 2015 score of 29.2, the progress has been slow compared to countries with similar economic growth rates. India also has the highest child wasting rate in the world at 18.7%. And 35.5% of children under five are medically listed as having their growth stunted, a condition that leads to long-term developmental complications.” — https://outreach-international.org/blog/malnutrition-in-india/ https://outreach-international.org/blog/malnutrition-in-indi...

ta20240528 2y ago
Three significant figures for a somewhat rough measurement of poverty over a sample of a population as diverse as India should have one's BS alarms blaring. Actually both 28,7 and 29,2 = 30. Social workers playing at science.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  I fail to see how diversity in the country would change those metrics.
  - abdullahkhalids 2y ago
    Economic class is highly correlated with social, religious, ethnic, tribal class. If there are more social, religious, ethnic, tribal classes in a single country (i.e. the country is diverse) then in another, then you do need to sample more of the groups to get sample means free from systematic bias. Simple example: image you are asked to compute the mean diameter of all balls in each of two bags. You open the first bag, and it is all blue balls, and they all look very close in radius. So you measure a few and call it a day. You open the second bag, and there are balls of about 50 different colors, and it seems like all the colors have different radius. So, then to get a good result, you need to measure almost the diameter of most of the colors.
  - ta20240528 2y ago

roenxi 2y ago

The article is interesting, the headline is baffling. It seems to be claiming that it is possible to pay Indians a medium-single-figure daily wage (ie, $1,000/year) despite having 40% of the country working in the agricultural industry. Great but that myth is and was of no real interest to anyone and isn't a very useful frame for the article. India still needs to move most of the population on to doing something more productive than inefficiently looking after plants. The goal is not 1 billion people living off slightly more than $1,000/year. The goal is living standards at least an order of magnitude higher if not several orders. That requires capital, not subsistence+ farming. Which, to their credit, is what the Indians seem to be focusing on.

sureIy 2y ago
> inefficiently looking after plants Might be a better life than smelling exhaust gas and looking at screens for 3/4 of our existence. Then wake up and worry about AI eventually eating our jobs.
- icetank 2y ago
  I take looking at screens in an office over breathing exhaust gases and pesticides any day. Working on a farm is hard work even in developed countries.
- milesrout 2y ago
  By the time most of India is at the level of development that their problem is looking at screens, the cars will be battery-electric. AI has as much chance of taking your job as combine harvesters have of taking everyone's job that currently has one in India working on farms: 99%, maybe, but also 0%.
ErigmolCt 2y ago
From my perspective (ultimately), it's about building infrastructure, education, and industries that sustainably improve quality of life
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> India still needs to move most of the population on to doing something more productive than inefficiently looking after plants. Not sure that this should be the goal.

iamshs 2y ago

Rs. 2700 per month ($32) is the poverty threshold for Urban dwellers? That does not sound right, seems like manipulation.

decimalenough 2y ago
Where did you get that number? 2.15 USD = 187 INR/day = 5610 INR/month.
- iamshs 2y ago
  Shamika Ravi, author of the study revealed the figures on her Twitter.

ErigmolCt 2y ago

But the real question is: what comes next? Just clearing the $2.15 threshold isn't enough—there's still a long road to real economic security

ann_ip 2y ago
Exactly what I was thinking. With population not slowing down anytime soon, what are the next steps?
- loeg 2y ago
  What? India has a TFR of 2.01. Population growth is over.
  - triceratops 2y ago
    Population growth isn't quite over because people also live longer than before. But yeah the days of rapid growth are quite gone.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  > what are the next steps? I'd say huge investments in improving things like infrastructure (roads, water, sewage, electricity), quality of housing, etc. China has a lot of experience in this regard with huge, admittedly failed projects of building entire cities from scratch (failed because nobody actually lives there).
  - gruez 2y ago
    >China has a lot of experience in this regard with huge, admittedly failed projects of building entire cities from scratch (failed because nobody actually lives there). Build it and they will come. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoccupied_developments_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underoccupied_developments_i... >Although a feature of discourse on the Chinese economy and urbanization in China in the 2010s, many developments that were initially criticized as "ghost cities" in China have since become occupied and are now functioning cities.[5][6][7][8]

pinoy420 2y ago

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profsummergig 2y ago

India really needs to work on consciousness-raising regarding sanitation/cleanliness. Modi made a start in 2014. I don't know why the momentum stopped. Some of the videos coming out of there (e.g. the recent video of the railway employee throwing a huge amount of used disposable plastic food trays off a moving train) are shocking.

eclecticfrank 2y ago
India is on a steady path of improvement and has awareness campaigns running that adress these issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_supply_and_sanitation_in... https://innovateindia.mygov.in/toilet-campaign/ https://innovateindia.mygov.in/toilet-campaign/ https://siwi.org/latest/the-clean-india-mission-worlds-largest-sanitation-initiative/ https://siwi.org/latest/the-clean-india-mission-worlds-large...
- profsummergig 2y ago
  The recent Delhi election, I was watching videos of some of the slums. There were literal hills of rotting organic garbage inside the slums. With children living next to them. I had visions of Paul Ehrlich freaking out at the sight of people defecating and bathing on the roadside in Delhi. I saw photos of some of the "mohalla clinics" (free basic healthcare clinics) that the previous Delhi government had (admittedly admirably) set up. Some of them looked so dirty and structurally unsound that they wouldn't be allowed to function as holding pens for farm animals in the US. In the US, we have companies like Waste Management handle our waste. Surprises me that India doesn't have a dozen Waste Managements by now. Billion dollar unicorns/startups/whatever, innovating in turning "waste to wealth" (as Nitin Gadkari calls it). Put capitalism to use where there's a failure of non-capitalism to solve the problem. But there might be deep cultural issues. I suspect the caste system plays a part. The forward castes believe that trash management is beneath them.
  - navigate8310 2y ago
    I believe that's ingrained in the culture to live besides the filth and romanticize poverty.

ViktorRay 2y ago

China and India had similar levels of poverty 50 years ago. How come China today is so different from India today? In terms of cleanliness and poverty elimination specifically. I know China liberalized in the 80’s and India in the 90’s. So you could say that’s a 10 year difference. But China 10 years ago was still very different from India even today. Does anyone have any ideas?

clarionbell 2y ago
It is much harder to report on problems in China than in India for one.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  There's no shortage of industrial and traffic accident videos coming out of China, very often showcasing horrendous working conditions and absolutely depraved levels of apathy from onlookers, which is to say that China isn't very good at suppressing videos that make them look bad. But in all of these videos, China looks 1000x more clean than India. Am I to believe that the Chinese government cares more about suppressing videos that show litter on the streets than a video of a woman slowly running over a child, putting her car in reverse and running over them again, all while people walk by and pretend they don't see it happen?
  - thatloststudent 2y ago
    Is it that hard to find? This[1] took me one search on YouTube. I agree that India is filthy, but it's not hard to find such videos for China either. [1] - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hEJKOD1ux14 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hEJKOD1ux14
    - ethan_smith 2y ago
      Do these look the same level of filthy to you? This is the capital city New Delhi (Yamuna River, which is worshipped): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83t0hdJG8AI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83t0hdJG8AI

yapyap 2y ago

What does neglible mean when talking about extreme poverty

dartharva 2y ago

By western (de-facto) standards the vast majority of Indians will still be considered under poverty.

known 2y ago

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gadders 2y ago

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pavlov 2y ago
Now that USAID has been thrown under the bus, it’s actually a golden opportunity for Europe to both rethink and boost aid programs. India is a crucial counterbalance to China. Now that the USA is retreating into internal bickering and giving up its global leadership, Europe should continue building ties with India and helping them lift people out of poverty.
- john_texas 2y ago
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- gadders 2y ago
  I'd rather taxes were spent on people in the home nations, rather than ex-colonies or other 3rd world countries. I also don't think countries should be spending on a space programme if they are still accepting aid.
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    They are not accepting aid. Read this : https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-tells-uk-we-dont-need-your-foreign-aid-1607413 https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/india-tells-uk-we-dont-need-your-f... It’s not Indian newspaper, its british newspaper. They’ve been asking UK to stop the aid since 2008, It’s being sent out of corruption deals between UK politicians and local special interest groups who are friends with those politicians. India never asked for any of these aids. The total aid India receives is smaller than the bloody fertiliser SUBSIDY budget of the country. It’s literally trinkets and they actively do not want it. India also banned foreign contributions and aid money being sent to its local NGOs without central government permission, just to put a stop to this.
    - gadders 2y ago
      Makes sense. I hope we stop that and the disguised aid by offering preferential terms on work visas etc.

uwagar 2y ago

i dont understand how the minimum non taxable income is 12 lakhs per annum (~10000 GBP) when a generous daily wage is like 1000 rupees (~10 GBP) a day.

teitoklien 2y ago
India’s economy is based on Domestic consumption instead of exports. If you tax its middle class (which is people above that income). Then consumption tanks entirely, They used to tax from a much lower rate at 7lakhs per annum and it was actively crushing their domestic consumption markets. They’ve been trying to revive and boost their declining consumption economy. India’s 10% population drives >50% of entire consumption, >80% of entire retail goods consumption outside of base essential commodities.
pwillia7 2y ago
Trust is low corruption high and a lot of people just don't pay taxes -- historically https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37530290 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-37530290

amriksohata 2y ago

Before British rule India had one of the highest GDPs in the world, it became impoverished after the loot and famines of British rule. Then it had 60+ years of corrupt and stagnant rule, in the last decade or so the people have had enough and are now voting in people only who believe in development. This is what you are seeing in this data.

teitoklien 2y ago
> so the people have had enough and are now voting in people only who believe in development. This is what you are seeing in this data. It is a strong reason why people praise the current Indian ruling government ive noticed both among poor masses, middle class and elite, so you’re correct. But they and the opposition all win elections there primarily on freebies, whichever party promises freebies wins in most parts of India. It’s just that people are more confident on freebies coming to them, if they vote the party in their province/state if the party is also ruling at the central level, since taxes are passed from centre to state, especially in the last 10 years with introduction of GST, etc. So yea, it is much more mixed, that just that reason, not to mention, first past the post, and uneven population sizes across different states, also change matters a lot.

keeda 2y ago

There seems to be some discussion about how this can be squared with the actual reality of poverty in India as perceived by people who live or visit there. One thing to consider is that the work (or similar recent work) by Bhalla and Bhassin that underlies this claim has been strongly criticized for using unrealistic poverty benchmarks: https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/indian-government-data-conceal-poverty-increase-by-ashoka-mody-2024-03 https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/indian-governme... So maybe the myth has not been undermined.

ZeroTalent 2y ago

I'm no expert, but I have a feeling that the poverty line is not correct. I know this is anecdotal, but I visited nine cities in India last year (including New Delhi), and the sidewalks were full of homeless people. At night, it was literally hard to walk through some areas because people were sleeping everywhere in the streets. I've never seen anything like that in the US or Europe. I might have a huge blindspot.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago

This is wonderful news and a framework for other countries to accomplish the same. I sensed the US’ “peacekeeping” role (I know, I know) and foreign aid spending has helped much of the global south reduce extreme poverty since the 80s. That doesn’t mean people’s lives are especially comfortable but it’s an upgrade. I think historically that will be US’ largest impact, and we are unlikely to accomplish anything as significant again. I don’t mean to imply US always did a respectable or honorable job in this role (I didn’t forget what the ford and Rockefeller foundations did) Now that the US seems intent on burning every international aid project we have, I hope other countries can help fill the gap and help lift other poor countries a little higher. It seems like a reasonable thing to do.