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If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bendi

If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of Jan 6th and multiple indictments against him - there's no reason to believe the next person they vote in won't be worse.

surfpel 2y ago
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- twism 2y ago
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  - surfpel 2y ago
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    - mmastrac 2y ago
      Please stop spamming the thread with the same youtube links over and over.
casenmgreen 2y ago
Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence. You can't force people, you can't trick people. I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed. That's how he got into power. To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.
- imcritic 2y ago
  Riiight. Just when someone you don't like gets elected as a president - you instantly claim that that country isn't democratic anymore.
layer8 2y ago
Unfortunately, there are European leaders like Hungary’s PM Viktor Orban who expressed support for Trump in reaction to this event.
- cmrdporcupine 2y ago
  Can we really put Orban in the category of "European leaders"? Seems more like "Putin followers"
  - layer8 2y ago
    As the leader of a EU country, he can veto top-level EU decisions, so in that sense he is.
    - amelius 2y ago
      EU needs a new structure for taking decisions.
      - layer8 2y ago
        Yeah, good luck with establishing that. The 27 EU member states are still separate sovereign nations, and nationalism has been on the rise in recent years.
        manmal 2y ago
        Wars are exactly what’s establishing things like that.
        deleted 2y ago
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        layer8 2y ago
        You’re referring to the nationalism I presume. That’s true, but it doesn’t help the overall situation, unless you believe that we should just let Putin do what he wants with Ukraine.
pedalpete 2y ago
I was thinking about this recently, and wondering the EU will start moving away from the USD, further weakening the global strength of USD and America. They are already dealing with BRIC, and the potential of crypto (likely Bitcoin) to remove any single currency as providing power to any country. The US has benefitted hugely by being the reserve currency, but that strength is also a weakness that can be used against them, but only if the other countries collaborate, which the EU is most capable of.
- epistasis 2y ago
  As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump, this is my big fear too. We have never had a weaker president that caused so many self-inflicted wounds. This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is. The small fraction of Silicon Valley that bent the knee to this narcissist wanna-be-king have shown themselves to be unbelievably weak too. It's surprising. I have lost so much respect for so many people over the past 6 months, but I fear much more for the future prosperity that we have needlessly destroyed.
  - JPKab 2y ago
    "As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump" Congratulations, you've been successfully propagandized to a point where you view people who don't vote the way you do as morally inferior. I'm sure that will help you persuade them in the future. "This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is." Oh, so you know what strength is huh? Did you ever serve in the military? Do you even have friends who did? Interesting that you ignore the fact that the previous president was mentally incapable of the job for increasingly long intervals as his term progressed, and was so incompetent on the Afghanistan withdrawal that he projected tremendous weakness that acted as an invite for Putin to launch a full scale assault less than a year later. Biden did nothing for Silicon Valley, other than try to regulate AI to a point where only a small handful of massive companies had foundation models. Marc Andreesen didn't support Trump until AFTER the Biden administration bureaucrats met with him and told him they would ensure that they would only allow a small handful of foundation AI companies that they tightly regulated to exist. He was so horrified that he switched over. The moral inversion it takes to claim that the people willing to stand agains the Valley's intense social conformity "weak" is also revealing about how brainwashed you truly are. You're just part of the mob, and if you lived in a super conservative place, you'd be part of that mob too. Freethinking requires courage, and I see none of it in the typical SV limousine liberal. Just a bunch of millionaires who hate the billionaires they envy.
hintymad 2y ago
> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots They should take control. That's why it puzzled me why they are okay to get deindustrialized, are okay to destroy their nuclear plants, and are okay to rely on imports of natural gas from Russia
- cco 2y ago
  Look into the German Chancellor that shut down the nuclear power plants and brought in natural gas from Russia is up to these days. It wasn't "Europe" being ok with it, just classic grift.
  - theyinwhy 2y ago
    What exactly is the classic grift Merkel did?
    - quakeguy 2y ago
      He is talking about Schroeder, who was in on Gazprom after his tenure.
      - Towaway69 2y ago
        But he didn’t shutdown nuclear power plants in Germany.
        svara 2y ago
        He did. Merkel accelerated it and Scholz chose not to delay. They all wanted this.
        Towaway69 2y ago
        Merkel might have followed his idea but she made the final decision. It was Merkel (after Fukushima) who declared an end to nuclear power in Germany - pandering to Green voters. The idea might well have come from the Schroeder Government but he did not make the final decision. In fact, the idea of nuclear exit is an idea of the Greens, Schroeder was pandering to the Greens in his coalition government back in the day. (Schroeder being SPD ("socialist"), Merkel being CDU ("conservative") and the Greens being the king makers back in the day - 2002 elections). One has to remember that it was different times: the Greens were a serious alternative to SPD and CDU, one of their main ideals (since their foundation) has been an exit from nuclear (generally). So once they came into power with the SPD and Schroeder, they were naturally keen on asserting their influence. Schroeder needed an alternative power source so he started looking to Russia. Russia was a serious partner in Europe, not only for Germany but all of Europe. After the fall of the wall, the policy of Europe was Russian integration into Europe. Why? Because this policy of interdependence of nations within Europe brought peace to Europe. Interdependence is - within capitalism - best achieved via trade amongst nations. Hence Germanys (not only Schroeder but german industry too) decision to accept (more) cheap gas and oil from Russia. The Russians were keen to bypass Ukraine and deliver gas directly to Germany, hence the idea of building the Nordstream 2 pipeline - an idea supported by the Schroeder Government and most probably german industry. The Nordstream 2 pipeline was completed in Merkels times but it was never brought online. Olaf Scholz (SPD) made the final decision not to take the pipeline online because of Russias official recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions as Russian. It was bombed - destroyed? - by unknown persons during the current war in 2022. The result of these events has been raising energy costs in Germany. Which has lead to disenchantment in the political system, which in turn has lead to a shift to the right in Germany and a raise in the AFD. Ironically, it has now come full circle with a CDU suggesting an easing (if not removal) of the "Schuldenbremse"[1] ("brake on debt") - meaning that Germany is not allowed to borrow money above a certain limit. A policy that has destroyed investment in the country and lead to an evasion to risk-taking. A policy introduced by the CDU back in 2009. In the end, it is all rather academic since we're now here and pointing fingers at the past is pointless. We're now facing a populist president in the USA, a populist Kanzler (prime minister) in German and chaos in Europe and the World. For me, it seems that good ideas are always the success of those that commit to those ideas, never those that actually had the ideas. Bad ideas, on the other hand, are always the fault of those that had the ideas, never those that committed to those ideas. Unfortunately hindsight decides between good and bad ideas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_balanced_budget_amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_balanced_budget_amendme...
palominoz 2y ago
It's not a matter of taking control. For many reasons, starting from ww2 and later the U.s. summarized the west population common values and ethics, in a very simple and sharable way. In Europe this is not possible because there is too much cultural distance between the countries, but we are all equidistant from the U.s. That's why we are all NATO allies and why fundamentally for the u.s. eveything is possible. It's something that we all agree upon because otherwise we would be arguing with each other.
daveguy 2y ago
You must have missed the visit from the French president. Macron whooped Trump harder than Stormy. That's probably why his fragile little ego needed someone to tell at.
- jasonlotito 2y ago
  Trump tried to grope him, and he wasn't having it. I don't understand how anyone thinks this is acceptable.
  - daveguy 2y ago
    Yes. I was speaking in admiration when I said Macron whooped Trump.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  A lot of Americans missed that cue. I think that old-fashioned Americans avoid applying psychoanalysis to politics because they’re afraid to fit in with cynics.
DrNosferatu 2y ago
European Democracies need to start their own Alliance.
- DrNosferatu 2y ago
  So, should Europe just roll over and wag its tail?
nataliste 2y ago
Oh, no. Don't do that. Europe footing its own bill for its own defense and increasing their industrial output is the last thing Donald Trump wants. Really.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
You can argue it’s been this way for a while, but it’s clear now that the US is no longer the leader of the free world.
- DamnYuppie 2y ago
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  - AlecSchueler 2y ago
    Is this a parody? the US is talking about annexing territory from allies, cosying up to Putin and purging the state apparatus of anyone non-compliant.
    - grumpyprole 2y ago
      And taking away women's rights.
    - amluto 2y ago
      To be fair, the US is also talking about annexing territory from non-allies, too. Maybe we need to annex territory comprising widely varying climates and degrees of strategic value?
      - AlecSchueler 2y ago
        I said allies because, although I don't personally agree, I can see all argument for why the "leader of the free world" would be taking on tyrants and dictators, whereas no such argument can hold water when they're threatening countries that rate higher than themselves on the democracy index
    - DamnYuppie 2y ago
      I don't equate personal freedoms with conquests. If you are a threat to our country I give no cares for what we do to you. If your nation has to be thrown on the pyre of Americas freedom..so be it. Alec I can't respond to your response. But no it wasn't a parody. I don't actually think we are cozying up to Putin. Europe keeps throwing money at him, we are just trying to end a stupid war. The "purge" is more of a fact finding to see who is wasting our money and how. No one is being killed, jailed, or tortured. I would however not mind if many politicians end up in jail. People forget previous presidents have fired over 350,000 federal employees, the sky didn't fall. But the national debt did for a time...just saying...
kardianos 2y ago
This is exactly what VP Vance and President Trump has asked the EU to do. They want them to pay more for their own defense... So, yeah.
- ModernMech 2y ago
  Presumably their defense is our defense - that was the whole point of NATO.
- bjoli 2y ago
  They also turned the US into a liability. I don't think any western nation will rely on the US for anything for a long time.
coryrc 2y ago
We need a constitutional convention to fix the legislative branch. People in Wyoming should not have 10x the representation as people in California. Without the complicity of the legislative branch Trump's power would be limited much more. We need mixed-member districts and eliminate the senate<->state connection and/or repeal the 17th amendment. Bicameral is no longer suited for the world we live in.
- tempestn 2y ago
  Unfortunately short of a revolution, there is no realistic way to pass any kind of meaningful constitutional amendment in the US. And it's hard to imagine that fact changing, which makes me pessimistic for the long term future of the country.
  - coryrc 2y ago
    Hence constitutional convention.
    - tempestn 2y ago
      Sure, but how do you get agreement on that?
- corey_moncure 2y ago
  You can change the rules of the game, yes. Then we will simply be playing a different game, and strategies will update accordingly.
jim-jim-jim 2y ago
I think most Americans of various stripes would endorse this. Europe is more than welcome to saber-rattle on its own budget.
- drawkward 2y ago
  How is defending against Putin's encroachment on a soverign country "saber-rattling"?
  - jim-jim-jim 2y ago
    If X is encroaching on Y and you're all the way over in Z, you're not defending yourself; you're deliberately getting getting involved in someone else's problem. Maybe the numbers are in your favor, or it's "the right thing to do," but Europeans have been using similar rationale to destroy their continent over and over again for centuries. I'm not judging at this point—it's probably just in your blood. The rest of the world just wants you to pay for it from here on out.
    - drawkward 2y ago
      This sounds a lot like being pro-bully. Also, it sounds like you dont unserstand what saber-rattling is. Putin is the one who is saber rattling. We are helping him pay for it by helping him steal land from Ukraine.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Am American and yeah no.
- dangjc 2y ago
  I think most Americans value freedom and reject tyranny.
  - deleted 2y ago
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helsinki 2y ago
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- pjc50 2y ago
  Harris would not have done anything like this and you know it.
  - userbinator 2y ago
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    - scott_w 2y ago
      Please explain how Trump stops the war short of allowing a Russian genocide of the Ukrainian people.
      - userbinator 2y ago
        Please explain how Harris stops the war.
        scott_w 2y ago
        That’s not how this works. You made a statement, now back it up.
        fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
        Eventually the Russian economy would've caved in. The ruble was in a free fall up until Trump decided to betray the free world.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        The Russian economy still can cave in. The war isn't over.
ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
It's been US policy for years to beg NATO members to increase military spending, it took the war in Ukraine for them to finally do it. Part of NATO's charter is literally "spend minimum 2% GDP on military" and it was just ignored for much of the time. But honestly I don't know why this entire comment section has turned to NATO NATO NATO. Ukraine isn't in NATO. And if the Budapest Memorandum is what you're referencing, France and UK signed too. It's not as if the US hasn't contributed to the war already.
- lambdasquirrel 2y ago
  The flip side of this is that the NATO countries have traditionally toed the U.S. stance on diplomatic matters, even on issues that are quite unpopular at home. The understanding abroad is that the U.S. can dictate what it wants, but then the Allies will simply drag their feet.
  - _bin_ 2y ago
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    - plussed_reader 2y ago
      I look at the regulatory capture of tech in the US and applaud the EU regulation that can't get traction in the companies' originating country.
  - PartiallyTyped 2y ago
    More Danish men died per capita than American men when the Us invoked article 5 and had us in the Middle East for the nth time.
- meitham 2y ago
  >>> Ukraine isn’t in NATO Ukraine’s potential NATO membership is one of Russia’s main demands for ending the war. Additionally, Ukraine participated in the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003.
- 2y ago
lordhexd 2y ago
They could soon realize China and Russia may actually make better allies. Might not be what the consensus on HN prefers, but maybe it’s time to look east. We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit
- anon7725 2y ago
  > We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit And you think that will happen with China and Russia as allies? Jesus. This thread is brigaded to hell by trolls.
- DamnYuppie 2y ago
  Wait who would ally with China/Russia, Europe or US? I mean either of those are a deathknell for Europe. China will not defend them against Russia. Heck I am not sure China can keep its hands off of Russia's oil fields as they lack their own resources. It would be fun to watch though. What collective benefit are you referring to exactly that isn't going to be profit? You think Russia and China care about your ideologies? China will exploit you and Russia will do what Russia always does. They all want to gang up and invade America?? They would have better things to do then that if Europe became their pet.
  - ngcazz 2y ago
    China, famously exploiting poorer nations through infrastructure investment and a focus on trade.
- troupo 2y ago
  Ukraine was Russia's ally. Russian businesses operated in Ukraine. Russian entertainment was made in Ukraine. There was effectively no borders between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine was one of the most pro-Russian countries among the post-Soviet countries. Look what being an ally with Russia brought.
  - drysine 2y ago
    >Look what being an ally with Russia brought. More like what becoming an ally of the US in 2014 brought.
ttoinou 2y ago
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talldatethrow 2y ago
Personally most Trump supporters I know can only hope for a more Trumpian successor to Trump. Basically if JD Vance continues on his path he is looking like a sure thing for the Republican nomination obviously, but if any of Trump's tactics work he has a decent chance overall to ride that wave.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  I suspect the coming economy though will weigh in.
  - imcritic 2y ago
    I bet the economy of U.S. will only prosper under Trump and Vance.
    - JKCalhoun 2y ago
      I'm already betting against that with my portfolio.
      - imcritic2 2y ago
        Kudos for being straightforward and putting your money where your mouth is. I wish that you'd come back with the results in 4 years.
        r_p4rk 2y ago
        https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow Why wait that long?
        mathfailure 2y ago
        Because extrapolating with little data is stupid. https://xkcd.com/605/ https://xkcd.com/605/
        2y ago
99_00 2y ago
The leaders of Germany and France don’t see Ukraine as part of their destiny. And that’s their right.
- ranguna 2y ago
  Sources? I've seen the contrary from Germany https://youtu.be/K-yAvfGxQXE https://youtu.be/K-yAvfGxQXE
  - smcin 2y ago
    Merz (CDU) is the new chancellor-elect, Scholz (SPD) was the previous chancellor (although really hed of a weak, unstable three-party "traffic-light" coalition). Weidel (AfD) also doubled voteshare to 20.8%. The SPD and also the Greens lost at last week's election, Habeck (Greens) quit, and they will both have less influence, and the Greens might not even be in the next coalition. Merz/CDU will be a main factor in the next coalition govt's position on Russia-Ukraine. Clearly each of the above parties have differing views on Russia-Ukraine, just like Obama/Biden/Trump. That's how coalitions work. It's very different to the US two-party presidential system, where you can directly measure a leader's power by their majority in seats or voteshare.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      I'm confused at what you're trying to say or how it relates to GP, but the very first statement is wrong, Merz isn't "chancellor-elect", that's not even a term anybody uses in Germany. He's merely the leader of the party that got the highest share of votes during the recent elections. It is of course extremely likely that he'll become the next chancellor in a coalition with the SPD, but technically it could all still fail and lead to new elections. Unlikely, but not impossible. Out of the parties you mentioned, mainly only CDU and SPD are relevant because it's the only realistic coalition (apart from decisions that require a 2/3 majority like reforming the debt brake). They're both pro-Ukraine although to different degrees (Scholz was dragging his feet quite a bit). Merz in particular has been rather vocal about this and as the chancellor he's probably going to be setting the tone. I don't like or trust the guy particularly, but I believe him in that respect. So I think the video got it essentially right.
whizzter 2y ago
We just had the leader of a Swedish party saying that non-US nuclear armament plans are needed, this is very significant since it's been basically unthinkable to say as far back as the 1960s or so when our own nuclear program was dismantled (The program was discontinued partly due to internal pressures but also rumored longstanding US guarantees for being under a nuclear shield).
- nickserv 2y ago
  France and the UK are the obvious candidates, as both are nuclear powers. Ideally there would be some coordination at the EU level, but really hard to see that short term.
  - lukan 2y ago
    It is not a new idea, but France would love to have others pay for their nuclear weapons, without giving up control. So yes, it will be a while to sort this out, but the box is open now. It is clear that own nukes are the only thing, the big powers respect. So many countries will pursue them now. And building a simple nuke is not that complicated - when you have the nuclear material. Europe does.
    - wood_spirit 2y ago
      Would Sweden want to pay for France’s nukes when the next president of France is very likely far right?
      - lukan 2y ago
        Since sweden (and germany) might become a far right government in some years as well, I would say, this is a seperate, but related issue. The last we want, are Nazis with nukes on top of it all.
        binarno_sp 2y ago
        I'd argue that the Nazi with nukes may soon be the US.
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
They weren't bending the knee. They were treating Trump like a toddler because that's the best strategy to get concessions from him. Look at the theatre of the UK giving him the "unprecedented" letter from the King. Talk of "bending knees" just makes macho idiots think they're winning. It's more like distracting your really drunk friend with something shiny to stop him starting a bar fight or walking into traffic while hoping when he sobers up he'll change for the better, not continue his slide into becoming an permanent asshole.
deleted 2y ago
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drysine 2y ago
>they need to take control of their own destiny They could've understood this in 2014 when Nuland said "Fuck the EU"[0], and the US pressed on with the coup in the Ukraine setting off the chain of events that has led us all to where we are now. >Given the American people voted for this guy twice American people voted twice for George W. Bush, the second time after the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003. This might have given a hint. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  I know this is pedantic, but the system selected Bush in his first election. Vietnam veteran and Southern Senator Al Gore won the popular vote. Only in his second election, as a wartime President, did Bush win the popular vote.
  - drysine 2y ago
    Thanks, I didn't know that
  - croon 2y ago
    I would add to that that it wasn't even a regular EC victory the first time for W Bush, but the conservative supreme court gave him the win [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore
    - ttyprintk 2y ago
      This is important -- as in, history books important. Two things: whomever won was going to inherit a balanced budget, and (in hindsight) be able to claim wartime priorities due to a pair of terrorist attacks. Those are highly influential for Gen-X and later generations, and not honestly impactful at all for Boomers and prior generations. Bush did not carry younger voters in either election. In 2001, the Supreme Court ruled that Florida, counting too slowly yet not carefully-enough, could not fully count their ballots. Every other state had successfully counted, but the Court sat through Florida's legal arguments, even though the state was a poster child for inadequate election planning. So, the popular vote would not matter. Statistically, if you don't count Florida, Gore's districts accounted for 60% of American GDP, and Bush's only 40%. This statistic becomes only more lopsided: in 2024, Biden would lose and election even though Trump represents only 30% of American productivity. Anyway, in 2004, today's median American was still a minor. Giuliani would give the convention address for Republicans in New York; he re-used then-Senate candidate Barack Obama's catchphrases. It was the highpoint of his career. He would only be noteworthy among the unusually-named group "white ethnics" of the Republican Party from then on.
svara 2y ago
The historic strategic opportunity is for all of what remains of the free world to join the EU and become the 'rules based order' hegemon. Doesn't need to be literally the EU, a similar kind of organization would work.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Rules based order never meant anything. Really it was just predictable stability.
mihaaly 2y ago
More like the europeans acted like adult gentleman. Not like a frustrated and insecure imbecile, as the trend seems to be for representatives of the people in some places. Do not mix up handling a dangerous child with loaded weapon in the hand nicely with relying on him. They go home and organize the way the situation deserves. Trump is a dumb loser anyway, riding the waves of mass frustration without comprehending much beyond whistles and bells and shiny shiny things, a child would find center of the life.
k__ 2y ago
In Germany, we just voted two man-babies (Merz and Söder) into power. The only hope I have, is they want bolster their ego with a strong EU.
kavenkanum 2y ago
It seems that this was a very cold and unexpected shower for all of us in Europe (maybe except Hungary) and now there is a big focus on working together against our common enemy and finding other more reliable partners. It's a pity we were relying this much on Americans for so long... Now we have motivation to change approach. And do it fast!
arp242 2y ago
We can do both: prepare for a future without the US, while at the same time trying to make the best of the relationship with the current madcap US government. I don't think there's a conflict between those two. Completely burning bridges at this point seems unwise.
throwaind29k 2y ago
What we are seeing from Europeans in response is rather weak sabre rattling. They don't seem to give an impression of being able to work out a coherent policy or show any initiative. The EU leaders, include Ursula Von Leyen speak big noble sounding words, but do very little.
- SecretDreams 2y ago
  I hope that changes soon. America is marching towards becoming kings of the world or completely isolated until this admin goes out to pasture. I hope nobody wants to go back to kings.
- deleted 2y ago
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- ponector 2y ago
  You can say the same about Trump, except words are not noble. Loud noise but do very little. Mainly pushing ally to accept the surrender terms. Btw, EU spent more than USA, both military and financially.
scyzoryk_xyz 2y ago
Similarly to the U.S., European countries are also democracies and it is a fact of life for us that administrations and leadership change. Today it’s the U.S. that’s not a reliable partner, yesterday it was Poland or someone else. Authoritarian regimes like to criticize this as unstable, but it’s worth noting that this surface level lack of stability also means frequent recalibration and stress testing. In consequence there is a deeper stability and fitness. The point of a democracy is to also have guardrails by splitting up executive, legislative and judicial powers - the U.S. is still not a dictatorship. European leaders know this, and professional politicians know that you can go hot and cold very fast. Today there is drama - tomorrow might rapidly turn over and flip.
- ttyprintk 2y ago
  And to get even more practical, “stability” is a comfort word rather than proof of a local optimum. We are not surprised when a dictatorship subdues an uprising because we are not surprised there was an uprising.
chewz 2y ago
> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. European leader are desperate because they realize obvious truth - US will soon implement regime changes all across Europe... European elites are simply not up to task of dealing with this new revolutionary era.
scop 2y ago
The elephant in the room though is Europe. Trump wants Europe to step up and act more independently. Pay their fair share for NATO. Increase their active militaries. Here's another fact to remember: Trump told Europe to kill Nord stream pipeline during his first term. He didn't want them tied economically to Putin. He didn't want Europe to depend upon Putin! Why? Because he's Putin's ally? Or maybe he is trying to make strong, independent countries that act as a deterrent. That would be a hell of a deterrent, instead of old people with no kids droning on endlessly about NATO.
- deleted 2y ago
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PovilasID 2y ago
It is not that people do not realize it is just not something you can do overnight. But once independent security system gets put in... I am sure there will be much less oral appeasement.

surfpel 2y ago

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twism 2y ago
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- surfpel 2y ago
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  - mmastrac 2y ago
    Please stop spamming the thread with the same youtube links over and over.

casenmgreen 2y ago

Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence. You can't force people, you can't trick people. I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed. That's how he got into power. To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.

imcritic 2y ago
Riiight. Just when someone you don't like gets elected as a president - you instantly claim that that country isn't democratic anymore.

layer8 2y ago

Unfortunately, there are European leaders like Hungary’s PM Viktor Orban who expressed support for Trump in reaction to this event.

cmrdporcupine 2y ago
Can we really put Orban in the category of "European leaders"? Seems more like "Putin followers"
- layer8 2y ago
  As the leader of a EU country, he can veto top-level EU decisions, so in that sense he is.
  - amelius 2y ago
    EU needs a new structure for taking decisions.
    - layer8 2y ago
      Yeah, good luck with establishing that. The 27 EU member states are still separate sovereign nations, and nationalism has been on the rise in recent years.
      - manmal 2y ago
        Wars are exactly what’s establishing things like that.
        deleted 2y ago
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        layer8 2y ago
        You’re referring to the nationalism I presume. That’s true, but it doesn’t help the overall situation, unless you believe that we should just let Putin do what he wants with Ukraine.

pedalpete 2y ago

I was thinking about this recently, and wondering the EU will start moving away from the USD, further weakening the global strength of USD and America. They are already dealing with BRIC, and the potential of crypto (likely Bitcoin) to remove any single currency as providing power to any country. The US has benefitted hugely by being the reserve currency, but that strength is also a weakness that can be used against them, but only if the other countries collaborate, which the EU is most capable of.

epistasis 2y ago
As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump, this is my big fear too. We have never had a weaker president that caused so many self-inflicted wounds. This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is. The small fraction of Silicon Valley that bent the knee to this narcissist wanna-be-king have shown themselves to be unbelievably weak too. It's surprising. I have lost so much respect for so many people over the past 6 months, but I fear much more for the future prosperity that we have needlessly destroyed.
- JPKab 2y ago
  "As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump" Congratulations, you've been successfully propagandized to a point where you view people who don't vote the way you do as morally inferior. I'm sure that will help you persuade them in the future. "This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is." Oh, so you know what strength is huh? Did you ever serve in the military? Do you even have friends who did? Interesting that you ignore the fact that the previous president was mentally incapable of the job for increasingly long intervals as his term progressed, and was so incompetent on the Afghanistan withdrawal that he projected tremendous weakness that acted as an invite for Putin to launch a full scale assault less than a year later. Biden did nothing for Silicon Valley, other than try to regulate AI to a point where only a small handful of massive companies had foundation models. Marc Andreesen didn't support Trump until AFTER the Biden administration bureaucrats met with him and told him they would ensure that they would only allow a small handful of foundation AI companies that they tightly regulated to exist. He was so horrified that he switched over. The moral inversion it takes to claim that the people willing to stand agains the Valley's intense social conformity "weak" is also revealing about how brainwashed you truly are. You're just part of the mob, and if you lived in a super conservative place, you'd be part of that mob too. Freethinking requires courage, and I see none of it in the typical SV limousine liberal. Just a bunch of millionaires who hate the billionaires they envy.

hintymad 2y ago

> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots They should take control. That's why it puzzled me why they are okay to get deindustrialized, are okay to destroy their nuclear plants, and are okay to rely on imports of natural gas from Russia

cco 2y ago
Look into the German Chancellor that shut down the nuclear power plants and brought in natural gas from Russia is up to these days. It wasn't "Europe" being ok with it, just classic grift.
- theyinwhy 2y ago
  What exactly is the classic grift Merkel did?
  - quakeguy 2y ago
    He is talking about Schroeder, who was in on Gazprom after his tenure.
    - Towaway69 2y ago
      But he didn’t shutdown nuclear power plants in Germany.
      - svara 2y ago
        He did. Merkel accelerated it and Scholz chose not to delay. They all wanted this.
        Towaway69 2y ago
        Merkel might have followed his idea but she made the final decision. It was Merkel (after Fukushima) who declared an end to nuclear power in Germany - pandering to Green voters. The idea might well have come from the Schroeder Government but he did not make the final decision. In fact, the idea of nuclear exit is an idea of the Greens, Schroeder was pandering to the Greens in his coalition government back in the day. (Schroeder being SPD ("socialist"), Merkel being CDU ("conservative") and the Greens being the king makers back in the day - 2002 elections). One has to remember that it was different times: the Greens were a serious alternative to SPD and CDU, one of their main ideals (since their foundation) has been an exit from nuclear (generally). So once they came into power with the SPD and Schroeder, they were naturally keen on asserting their influence. Schroeder needed an alternative power source so he started looking to Russia. Russia was a serious partner in Europe, not only for Germany but all of Europe. After the fall of the wall, the policy of Europe was Russian integration into Europe. Why? Because this policy of interdependence of nations within Europe brought peace to Europe. Interdependence is - within capitalism - best achieved via trade amongst nations. Hence Germanys (not only Schroeder but german industry too) decision to accept (more) cheap gas and oil from Russia. The Russians were keen to bypass Ukraine and deliver gas directly to Germany, hence the idea of building the Nordstream 2 pipeline - an idea supported by the Schroeder Government and most probably german industry. The Nordstream 2 pipeline was completed in Merkels times but it was never brought online. Olaf Scholz (SPD) made the final decision not to take the pipeline online because of Russias official recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions as Russian. It was bombed - destroyed? - by unknown persons during the current war in 2022. The result of these events has been raising energy costs in Germany. Which has lead to disenchantment in the political system, which in turn has lead to a shift to the right in Germany and a raise in the AFD. Ironically, it has now come full circle with a CDU suggesting an easing (if not removal) of the "Schuldenbremse"[1] ("brake on debt") - meaning that Germany is not allowed to borrow money above a certain limit. A policy that has destroyed investment in the country and lead to an evasion to risk-taking. A policy introduced by the CDU back in 2009. In the end, it is all rather academic since we're now here and pointing fingers at the past is pointless. We're now facing a populist president in the USA, a populist Kanzler (prime minister) in German and chaos in Europe and the World. For me, it seems that good ideas are always the success of those that commit to those ideas, never those that actually had the ideas. Bad ideas, on the other hand, are always the fault of those that had the ideas, never those that committed to those ideas. Unfortunately hindsight decides between good and bad ideas. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_balanced_budget_amendment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_balanced_budget_amendme...

palominoz 2y ago

It's not a matter of taking control. For many reasons, starting from ww2 and later the U.s. summarized the west population common values and ethics, in a very simple and sharable way. In Europe this is not possible because there is too much cultural distance between the countries, but we are all equidistant from the U.s. That's why we are all NATO allies and why fundamentally for the u.s. eveything is possible. It's something that we all agree upon because otherwise we would be arguing with each other.

daveguy 2y ago

You must have missed the visit from the French president. Macron whooped Trump harder than Stormy. That's probably why his fragile little ego needed someone to tell at.

jasonlotito 2y ago
Trump tried to grope him, and he wasn't having it. I don't understand how anyone thinks this is acceptable.
- daveguy 2y ago
  Yes. I was speaking in admiration when I said Macron whooped Trump.
ttyprintk 2y ago
A lot of Americans missed that cue. I think that old-fashioned Americans avoid applying psychoanalysis to politics because they’re afraid to fit in with cynics.

DrNosferatu 2y ago

European Democracies need to start their own Alliance.

DrNosferatu 2y ago
So, should Europe just roll over and wag its tail?

nataliste 2y ago

Oh, no. Don't do that. Europe footing its own bill for its own defense and increasing their industrial output is the last thing Donald Trump wants. Really.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

You can argue it’s been this way for a while, but it’s clear now that the US is no longer the leader of the free world.

DamnYuppie 2y ago
[flagged]
- AlecSchueler 2y ago
  Is this a parody? the US is talking about annexing territory from allies, cosying up to Putin and purging the state apparatus of anyone non-compliant.
  - grumpyprole 2y ago
    And taking away women's rights.
  - amluto 2y ago
    To be fair, the US is also talking about annexing territory from non-allies, too. Maybe we need to annex territory comprising widely varying climates and degrees of strategic value?
    - AlecSchueler 2y ago
      I said allies because, although I don't personally agree, I can see all argument for why the "leader of the free world" would be taking on tyrants and dictators, whereas no such argument can hold water when they're threatening countries that rate higher than themselves on the democracy index
  - DamnYuppie 2y ago
    I don't equate personal freedoms with conquests. If you are a threat to our country I give no cares for what we do to you. If your nation has to be thrown on the pyre of Americas freedom..so be it. Alec I can't respond to your response. But no it wasn't a parody. I don't actually think we are cozying up to Putin. Europe keeps throwing money at him, we are just trying to end a stupid war. The "purge" is more of a fact finding to see who is wasting our money and how. No one is being killed, jailed, or tortured. I would however not mind if many politicians end up in jail. People forget previous presidents have fired over 350,000 federal employees, the sky didn't fall. But the national debt did for a time...just saying...

kardianos 2y ago

This is exactly what VP Vance and President Trump has asked the EU to do. They want them to pay more for their own defense... So, yeah.

ModernMech 2y ago
Presumably their defense is our defense - that was the whole point of NATO.
bjoli 2y ago
They also turned the US into a liability. I don't think any western nation will rely on the US for anything for a long time.

coryrc 2y ago

We need a constitutional convention to fix the legislative branch. People in Wyoming should not have 10x the representation as people in California. Without the complicity of the legislative branch Trump's power would be limited much more. We need mixed-member districts and eliminate the senate<->state connection and/or repeal the 17th amendment. Bicameral is no longer suited for the world we live in.

tempestn 2y ago
Unfortunately short of a revolution, there is no realistic way to pass any kind of meaningful constitutional amendment in the US. And it's hard to imagine that fact changing, which makes me pessimistic for the long term future of the country.
- coryrc 2y ago
  Hence constitutional convention.
  - tempestn 2y ago
    Sure, but how do you get agreement on that?
corey_moncure 2y ago
You can change the rules of the game, yes. Then we will simply be playing a different game, and strategies will update accordingly.

jim-jim-jim 2y ago

I think most Americans of various stripes would endorse this. Europe is more than welcome to saber-rattle on its own budget.

drawkward 2y ago
How is defending against Putin's encroachment on a soverign country "saber-rattling"?
- jim-jim-jim 2y ago
  If X is encroaching on Y and you're all the way over in Z, you're not defending yourself; you're deliberately getting getting involved in someone else's problem. Maybe the numbers are in your favor, or it's "the right thing to do," but Europeans have been using similar rationale to destroy their continent over and over again for centuries. I'm not judging at this point—it's probably just in your blood. The rest of the world just wants you to pay for it from here on out.
  - drawkward 2y ago
    This sounds a lot like being pro-bully. Also, it sounds like you dont unserstand what saber-rattling is. Putin is the one who is saber rattling. We are helping him pay for it by helping him steal land from Ukraine.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Am American and yeah no.
dangjc 2y ago
I think most Americans value freedom and reject tyranny.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 2y ago

helsinki 2y ago

[flagged]

pjc50 2y ago
Harris would not have done anything like this and you know it.
- userbinator 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - scott_w 2y ago
    Please explain how Trump stops the war short of allowing a Russian genocide of the Ukrainian people.
    - userbinator 2y ago
      Please explain how Harris stops the war.
      - scott_w 2y ago
        That’s not how this works. You made a statement, now back it up.
      - fldskfjdslkfj 2y ago
        Eventually the Russian economy would've caved in. The ruble was in a free fall up until Trump decided to betray the free world.
        pclmulqdq 2y ago
        The Russian economy still can cave in. The war isn't over.

ApolloFortyNine 2y ago

It's been US policy for years to beg NATO members to increase military spending, it took the war in Ukraine for them to finally do it. Part of NATO's charter is literally "spend minimum 2% GDP on military" and it was just ignored for much of the time. But honestly I don't know why this entire comment section has turned to NATO NATO NATO. Ukraine isn't in NATO. And if the Budapest Memorandum is what you're referencing, France and UK signed too. It's not as if the US hasn't contributed to the war already.

lambdasquirrel 2y ago
The flip side of this is that the NATO countries have traditionally toed the U.S. stance on diplomatic matters, even on issues that are quite unpopular at home. The understanding abroad is that the U.S. can dictate what it wants, but then the Allies will simply drag their feet.
- _bin_ 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - plussed_reader 2y ago
    I look at the regulatory capture of tech in the US and applaud the EU regulation that can't get traction in the companies' originating country.
- PartiallyTyped 2y ago
  More Danish men died per capita than American men when the Us invoked article 5 and had us in the Middle East for the nth time.
meitham 2y ago
>>> Ukraine isn’t in NATO Ukraine’s potential NATO membership is one of Russia’s main demands for ending the war. Additionally, Ukraine participated in the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003.
2y ago

lordhexd 2y ago

They could soon realize China and Russia may actually make better allies. Might not be what the consensus on HN prefers, but maybe it’s time to look east. We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit

anon7725 2y ago
> We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit And you think that will happen with China and Russia as allies? Jesus. This thread is brigaded to hell by trolls.
DamnYuppie 2y ago
Wait who would ally with China/Russia, Europe or US? I mean either of those are a deathknell for Europe. China will not defend them against Russia. Heck I am not sure China can keep its hands off of Russia's oil fields as they lack their own resources. It would be fun to watch though. What collective benefit are you referring to exactly that isn't going to be profit? You think Russia and China care about your ideologies? China will exploit you and Russia will do what Russia always does. They all want to gang up and invade America?? They would have better things to do then that if Europe became their pet.
- ngcazz 2y ago
  China, famously exploiting poorer nations through infrastructure investment and a focus on trade.
troupo 2y ago
Ukraine was Russia's ally. Russian businesses operated in Ukraine. Russian entertainment was made in Ukraine. There was effectively no borders between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine was one of the most pro-Russian countries among the post-Soviet countries. Look what being an ally with Russia brought.
- drysine 2y ago
  >Look what being an ally with Russia brought. More like what becoming an ally of the US in 2014 brought.

ttoinou 2y ago

[flagged]

talldatethrow 2y ago

Personally most Trump supporters I know can only hope for a more Trumpian successor to Trump. Basically if JD Vance continues on his path he is looking like a sure thing for the Republican nomination obviously, but if any of Trump's tactics work he has a decent chance overall to ride that wave.

JKCalhoun 2y ago
I suspect the coming economy though will weigh in.
- imcritic 2y ago
  I bet the economy of U.S. will only prosper under Trump and Vance.
  - JKCalhoun 2y ago
    I'm already betting against that with my portfolio.
    - imcritic2 2y ago
      Kudos for being straightforward and putting your money where your mouth is. I wish that you'd come back with the results in 4 years.
      - r_p4rk 2y ago
        https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow https://www.atlantafed.org/cqer/research/gdpnow Why wait that long?
        mathfailure 2y ago
        Because extrapolating with little data is stupid. https://xkcd.com/605/ https://xkcd.com/605/
      - 2y ago

99_00 2y ago

The leaders of Germany and France don’t see Ukraine as part of their destiny. And that’s their right.

ranguna 2y ago
Sources? I've seen the contrary from Germany https://youtu.be/K-yAvfGxQXE https://youtu.be/K-yAvfGxQXE
- smcin 2y ago
  Merz (CDU) is the new chancellor-elect, Scholz (SPD) was the previous chancellor (although really hed of a weak, unstable three-party "traffic-light" coalition). Weidel (AfD) also doubled voteshare to 20.8%. The SPD and also the Greens lost at last week's election, Habeck (Greens) quit, and they will both have less influence, and the Greens might not even be in the next coalition. Merz/CDU will be a main factor in the next coalition govt's position on Russia-Ukraine. Clearly each of the above parties have differing views on Russia-Ukraine, just like Obama/Biden/Trump. That's how coalitions work. It's very different to the US two-party presidential system, where you can directly measure a leader's power by their majority in seats or voteshare.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    I'm confused at what you're trying to say or how it relates to GP, but the very first statement is wrong, Merz isn't "chancellor-elect", that's not even a term anybody uses in Germany. He's merely the leader of the party that got the highest share of votes during the recent elections. It is of course extremely likely that he'll become the next chancellor in a coalition with the SPD, but technically it could all still fail and lead to new elections. Unlikely, but not impossible. Out of the parties you mentioned, mainly only CDU and SPD are relevant because it's the only realistic coalition (apart from decisions that require a 2/3 majority like reforming the debt brake). They're both pro-Ukraine although to different degrees (Scholz was dragging his feet quite a bit). Merz in particular has been rather vocal about this and as the chancellor he's probably going to be setting the tone. I don't like or trust the guy particularly, but I believe him in that respect. So I think the video got it essentially right.

whizzter 2y ago

We just had the leader of a Swedish party saying that non-US nuclear armament plans are needed, this is very significant since it's been basically unthinkable to say as far back as the 1960s or so when our own nuclear program was dismantled (The program was discontinued partly due to internal pressures but also rumored longstanding US guarantees for being under a nuclear shield).

nickserv 2y ago
France and the UK are the obvious candidates, as both are nuclear powers. Ideally there would be some coordination at the EU level, but really hard to see that short term.
- lukan 2y ago
  It is not a new idea, but France would love to have others pay for their nuclear weapons, without giving up control. So yes, it will be a while to sort this out, but the box is open now. It is clear that own nukes are the only thing, the big powers respect. So many countries will pursue them now. And building a simple nuke is not that complicated - when you have the nuclear material. Europe does.
  - wood_spirit 2y ago
    Would Sweden want to pay for France’s nukes when the next president of France is very likely far right?
    - lukan 2y ago
      Since sweden (and germany) might become a far right government in some years as well, I would say, this is a seperate, but related issue. The last we want, are Nazis with nukes on top of it all.
      - binarno_sp 2y ago
        I'd argue that the Nazi with nukes may soon be the US.

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

They weren't bending the knee. They were treating Trump like a toddler because that's the best strategy to get concessions from him. Look at the theatre of the UK giving him the "unprecedented" letter from the King. Talk of "bending knees" just makes macho idiots think they're winning. It's more like distracting your really drunk friend with something shiny to stop him starting a bar fight or walking into traffic while hoping when he sobers up he'll change for the better, not continue his slide into becoming an permanent asshole.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

drysine 2y ago

>they need to take control of their own destiny They could've understood this in 2014 when Nuland said "Fuck the EU"[0], and the US pressed on with the coup in the Ukraine setting off the chain of events that has led us all to where we are now. >Given the American people voted for this guy twice American people voted twice for George W. Bush, the second time after the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003. This might have given a hint. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

ttyprintk 2y ago
I know this is pedantic, but the system selected Bush in his first election. Vietnam veteran and Southern Senator Al Gore won the popular vote. Only in his second election, as a wartime President, did Bush win the popular vote.
- drysine 2y ago
  Thanks, I didn't know that
- croon 2y ago
  I would add to that that it wasn't even a regular EC victory the first time for W Bush, but the conservative supreme court gave him the win [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore
  - ttyprintk 2y ago
    This is important -- as in, history books important. Two things: whomever won was going to inherit a balanced budget, and (in hindsight) be able to claim wartime priorities due to a pair of terrorist attacks. Those are highly influential for Gen-X and later generations, and not honestly impactful at all for Boomers and prior generations. Bush did not carry younger voters in either election. In 2001, the Supreme Court ruled that Florida, counting too slowly yet not carefully-enough, could not fully count their ballots. Every other state had successfully counted, but the Court sat through Florida's legal arguments, even though the state was a poster child for inadequate election planning. So, the popular vote would not matter. Statistically, if you don't count Florida, Gore's districts accounted for 60% of American GDP, and Bush's only 40%. This statistic becomes only more lopsided: in 2024, Biden would lose and election even though Trump represents only 30% of American productivity. Anyway, in 2004, today's median American was still a minor. Giuliani would give the convention address for Republicans in New York; he re-used then-Senate candidate Barack Obama's catchphrases. It was the highpoint of his career. He would only be noteworthy among the unusually-named group "white ethnics" of the Republican Party from then on.

svara 2y ago

The historic strategic opportunity is for all of what remains of the free world to join the EU and become the 'rules based order' hegemon. Doesn't need to be literally the EU, a similar kind of organization would work.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Rules based order never meant anything. Really it was just predictable stability.

mihaaly 2y ago

More like the europeans acted like adult gentleman. Not like a frustrated and insecure imbecile, as the trend seems to be for representatives of the people in some places. Do not mix up handling a dangerous child with loaded weapon in the hand nicely with relying on him. They go home and organize the way the situation deserves. Trump is a dumb loser anyway, riding the waves of mass frustration without comprehending much beyond whistles and bells and shiny shiny things, a child would find center of the life.

k__ 2y ago

In Germany, we just voted two man-babies (Merz and Söder) into power. The only hope I have, is they want bolster their ego with a strong EU.

kavenkanum 2y ago

It seems that this was a very cold and unexpected shower for all of us in Europe (maybe except Hungary) and now there is a big focus on working together against our common enemy and finding other more reliable partners. It's a pity we were relying this much on Americans for so long... Now we have motivation to change approach. And do it fast!

arp242 2y ago

We can do both: prepare for a future without the US, while at the same time trying to make the best of the relationship with the current madcap US government. I don't think there's a conflict between those two. Completely burning bridges at this point seems unwise.

throwaind29k 2y ago

What we are seeing from Europeans in response is rather weak sabre rattling. They don't seem to give an impression of being able to work out a coherent policy or show any initiative. The EU leaders, include Ursula Von Leyen speak big noble sounding words, but do very little.

SecretDreams 2y ago
I hope that changes soon. America is marching towards becoming kings of the world or completely isolated until this admin goes out to pasture. I hope nobody wants to go back to kings.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ponector 2y ago
You can say the same about Trump, except words are not noble. Loud noise but do very little. Mainly pushing ally to accept the surrender terms. Btw, EU spent more than USA, both military and financially.

scyzoryk_xyz 2y ago

Similarly to the U.S., European countries are also democracies and it is a fact of life for us that administrations and leadership change. Today it’s the U.S. that’s not a reliable partner, yesterday it was Poland or someone else. Authoritarian regimes like to criticize this as unstable, but it’s worth noting that this surface level lack of stability also means frequent recalibration and stress testing. In consequence there is a deeper stability and fitness. The point of a democracy is to also have guardrails by splitting up executive, legislative and judicial powers - the U.S. is still not a dictatorship. European leaders know this, and professional politicians know that you can go hot and cold very fast. Today there is drama - tomorrow might rapidly turn over and flip.

ttyprintk 2y ago
And to get even more practical, “stability” is a comfort word rather than proof of a local optimum. We are not surprised when a dictatorship subdues an uprising because we are not surprised there was an uprising.

chewz 2y ago

> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. European leader are desperate because they realize obvious truth - US will soon implement regime changes all across Europe... European elites are simply not up to task of dealing with this new revolutionary era.

scop 2y ago

The elephant in the room though is Europe. Trump wants Europe to step up and act more independently. Pay their fair share for NATO. Increase their active militaries. Here's another fact to remember: Trump told Europe to kill Nord stream pipeline during his first term. He didn't want them tied economically to Putin. He didn't want Europe to depend upon Putin! Why? Because he's Putin's ally? Or maybe he is trying to make strong, independent countries that act as a deterrent. That would be a hell of a deterrent, instead of old people with no kids droning on endlessly about NATO.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

PovilasID 2y ago

It is not that people do not realize it is just not something you can do overnight. But once independent security system gets put in... I am sure there will be much less oral appeasement.