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Gig workers worked more but earned less in 2024: study
- johnnyanmac 2y agoNot too surprising. That California Prop 22 from 2020 and similar props throughout the country is finally paying off. A waning economy and rising costs also make the gig workers suffer the most. >In response to the report, an Uber spokesperson told BI that its drivers make more than $30 an hour on average. Gotta love the ol' "well the average is decent" line in times of unprecedented standard deviations. Though there may be even more creative accounting for their average compared to: >Uber hide-hailing drivers saw their earnings for 2024 fall 3.4% on average to $513 a week, according to a study released Tuesday by data analytics company Gridwise. At the same time, Uber drivers worked 0.8% more hours in 2024. roughly $13/hr.
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- artificialprint 2y agoI eat bread, Uber CEO eats marble steak. On average we eat a burger
- ipaddr 2y agoThere is one Uber CEO and many people eating bread. On average you eat bread;
- aqueueaqueue 2y agoThe analogy breaks because the mean is skewable by high incomes and the median is well ... a number such that if you add $1 most people earn less than that. Bottom 10-percentile would be a good measure maybe for something to lift if you are left leaning or right leaning and see the economy holistically.
- mitthrowaway2 2y agoWhen wealth follows a power law distribution, that's very questionable. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law#Lack_of_well-defined_average_value https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law#Lack_of_well-defin...
- mrighele 2y agoOP should have written We (1000 people) eat bread, Uber CEO eats 1000 marble steaks. On average we eat a burger each
- taberiand 2y agoEconomists claim on average we eat a burger each; voters vote in politicians who want to "cut the wasteful burger budget and lower taxes on steaks"
- DSMan195276 2y agoIf you have 1000 people making $1 along with one person making $1000, the average is about $2 - so 99.9% of people are making less than the average.
- Terr_ 2y agoYou're forgetting that CEO's steak is the size of a skyscraper.
- ErikAugust 2y agoYeah, surprise surprise, $13/hour is getting close to the average minimum wage ($11.18/hour). Except without any benefits, and all the expenses that would normally be covered by your employer.
- kasey_junk 2y agoI do not want to defend the gig apps but there is a major benefit, you can make your own schedule and (mostly) work in the geography that you want. That flexibility is extremely valuable to some people.
- ErikAugust 2y agoSure, make arguably less than minimum wage but do it whenever you want.
- kasey_junk 2y agoSadly that’s the best option for some people. And it’s worth remembering that the hours many minimum wage jobs give are irregular in quantity with very little consistency of schedule. We should definitely have robust protections for gig workers but we don’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water.
- segfaltnh 2y agoThing is, the model could have been built with employees, even lowly paid ones, but then it would have been pretty transparent that they were subsidizing the rates to take market share from licensed taxis. The indirection is a feature, not a bug. Have we learned anything? Probably not.
- wlesieutre 2y agoI'd like to know how much they make after factoring in gas, insurance, and wear/tear on the vehicle
- chneu 2y agoIt's very little. Most people I know make around $10/hr after costs if they stay really busy. Most rely on a couple of big tips a day. That's below minimum wage where I'm at. And remember there's no healthcare, benefits, etc. So that $10/hr is divided further.
- titanomachy 2y ago> waning economy and rising costs The US economy appears to growing at about the same (inflation-adjusted) rate that it has since the 80s. [0] But it certainly does seem that the consumer price index is failing to capture the reality of rising costs. For example the big mac index significantly outpaced the CPI the last few years.[1] And obviously housing and education costs have outpaced inflation. I guess it's politically expedient to under-report inflation... I wonder what the "real" GDP growth would be if we had a measure of cost that actually reflected the reality of people's lives. Of course, that's not even mentioning increasing inequality. [0] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1/ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GDPC1/ [1] https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/apr/how-big-mac-index-relates-overall-consumer-inflation https://www.stlouisfed.org/on-the-economy/2024/apr/how-big-m...
- chgs 2y agoThe components of cpi are all individually reported, as is the weighting. You’re free to present your own weightings, or perhaps analyse people’s spendings as a service and categorise it to present a personal inflation index.
- milesrout 2y agoHow do you figure $13/hr? Most of the Uber drivers I have had work less than full time, and often weird hours: 3am to 1pm three days a week for example.
- johnnyanmac 2y agoYeah, thars probably where the "interpretation" from the Uber CEO comes in. If you measure it with 20 hour work weeks, it could indeed come down to $30/hr. I feel most people will compare it to their full time jobs when hearing the statistics, however.
- buckle8017 2y agoBut did they earn more than they did before doing gig work?
- xyst 2y ago“Gig work” was always shitty pay _after_ you consider all of the expenses and depreciation in assets. You are an “independent contractor” after all. If you drive for a TNC, you may on paper earn more per hour but after gas, wear and tear on vehicle (changing out brakes, tires much faster), increased maintenance, steep depreciation of vehicle, higher insurance premiums for commercial auto. Then you factor in having to buy your own health insurance on the market, dental insurance, and other expenses that a normal, salaried, full time job comes with. Don’t forget about the taxes you have to pay out at the end of the year that would normally be taken out with each paycheck. I remember doing gig work when those companies were shelling out $1,000s for new drivers. But once those teasers expired and rates got cut, it didn’t make much sense from a financial aspect to continue doing so. Great beer money for a college student but I don’t see how folks make a sustainable living on the slave wage.
- missedthecue 2y agoFor how many people is gig work their sole source of income?
- mx_03 2y agoAre you really an independent contractor if you cant set your own prices? To me Uber drivers are neither employees nor independent contractors. Working as much or as little as they want is not enough to be considered independent contractor.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Are you really an independent contractor if you cant set your own prices? Yes. Most tradespeople have limited control over the rates they can charge. To the extent they can set rates, an Uber driver and accept and decline fares.
- esalman 2y agoCannot help but feel gig working is what stopping minimum wage from rising.
- smt88 2y agoThe only thing stopping minimum wage from rising is the Republican Party. The minimum already isn't market-driven, and it isn't pegged to inflation, either. Adjusting for inflation, it's not surprising to see the lowest earners making less money.
- taude 2y agoNot that you were arguing against the point I'm going to make, but ddjusting for inflation, even those in good white-collar jobs are making way less money, and then add the cost of housing (or trying to buy a house) into the mix, and it's downright depressing. I was just looking at a place that was $240K in 2007, and it now costs 1.05M. My wages didn't go from 150K to 600K in that same time period.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoWhen wage minimums aren’t tied to inflation, we’re stealing from those with the least to increase returns.
- nickff 2y agoMany peoples’ wages went from 0-150k in that period. There were many layoffs during the Great Recession, and comparing asset values from then to now (a point at which there has been ~15 years of secular growth) is absurd.
- chii 2y ago> My wages didn't go from 150K to 600K in that same time period. the thing is, there are people who did have such an increase (in wealth, if not by income). Therefore, the value of said house is higher, because those people who did have wealth increases want those houses.
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- deadbabe 2y agoWhat people don’t understand is that pay isn’t everything. Like remote work, people will accept being paid less to enjoy the benefits of flexibility that gig work provides, which ends up being better than getting paid more but being stuck to a rigid routine. There is also more upward mobility in gig work as you can optimize over time to earn more, which isn’t possible in some jobs. Believe me, if gig work was so shitty, people wouldn’t be doing it. There’s also some hacks to reduce individual expenses like sharing a car with someone else who works different hours, etc. The problem isn’t that gig work is low pay, the real problem is everything has gotten so expensive. Gig work was always going to be low pay.
- ErikAugust 2y agoCould you explain what you mean by upward mobility here? If you mean by working more hours, that’s not a novel way to make more money.
- chneu 2y agoGenuinely curious wtf "upward mobility" is in regards to Uber type gig work. Working more hours isn't "upward mobility".
- rqtwteye 2y ago"There is also more upward mobility in gig work as you can optimize over time to earn more, which isn’t possible in some jobs." I think there is zero upwards mobility. Gig workers will always be a commodity at the bottom of the hierarchy. No promotions, no bonus, no RSU. Even their performance doesn't matter much. For example I can't request a specific Instacart shopper or Uber driver again who did a good job.
- PicassoCTs 2y agoThere must be some magic caloric boundary where "work" becomes a "labour" camp in all but name and a dollar value attached to that.
- knodi123 2y agoI take your point, but I believe "freedom to quit and go elsewhere" is also a critical distinction...
- xethos 2y agoYes, but that starts drifting into a discussion about company towns where one is free to leave - just as soon as the debt (owed to the company that sets your wages and determines your rent) is paid off
- MisterBastahrd 2y agoI rode in an Uber home from a rehab hospital recently after a long stay in the ICU. The guy was driving a Land Rover. I was a bit confused to say the least. The wear and tear and depreciation of that vehicle has to be crazy.
- symfoniq 2y agoMost of the people I see buying Land Rovers probably need a side gig to afford them.
- brandall10 2y agoI've had several drivers in the LA area using $80k+ vehicles. The few I've asked, they've mentioned they work from home and it gives them an excuse to drive their car.
- 3eb7988a1663 2y agoIf I were living above my means, that sounds like an excuse I would give as well.
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- chneu 2y agoSome of them also don't pay for their vehicles. Their parents lease them a car or some situation like that.
- fHr 2y agoUbers I take like the last 5 years are brand new Teslas or some other exorbitant car, car lobby shoving them leasing down the throat so they are enslaved to work off just the lease interest for few years
- blitzar 2y agoAmazon delivery the other day was a guy in a Mercedes ... gotta pay the lease on the car you can't afford somehow.
- SeanAnderson 2y agoI've been basically begging my friends that drive for Uber/Lyft in SF to figure out a game plan. I've completely switched over to Waymo at this point because it's just a superior experience in numerous ways. I have to imagine the human drivers will be fighting over scraps in a few more years. I truly do empathize with the situation, and I understand this report applies to more than just Uber/Lyft drivers in one specific city, but, at the same time, I find it frustrating to see a glaring paradigm shift being met with apathy - as if the value they provide through their work won't drop markedly in the face of automation.
- HPsquared 2y agoDriving is just a gig, it's not like they are super invested in it and did years of study in a particular style of driving and couldn't do any other job. The apathy is because it's easy come, easy go.
- immibis 2y agoGigs are papering over a gaping sinkhole in the economy.
- sangnoir 2y agoGigs are part of the sinkhole; funneling money from those struggling to get by to the app-makers and their investors. At best, gigs are the pretty-but-slippery wallpaper lining the sinkhole many have fallen into, and can't climb out of because the apps unilaterally decide how small the gig-workers' share of the revenue is.
- milesrout 2y agoIsn't it the opposite? Have any of these companies made net lifetime profit? They hemorraged money for years to build market share? Which of them are actually profitable and have they made all that money back? It seems to me more like funnelling money from investors to software developers and consumers given how unprofitable they are.
- TrackerFF 2y agoSome influencer here in Norway tried to work for a food-delivery service, called Wolt. His workday lasted 9.5 hrs, and he made 1607 NOK, and had 784 NOK in costs related to his car (fuel, toll), or 823 NOK before taxes. That's 86 NOK / hr., before taxes, or roughly $7.7 in USD (1 USD = 11.15). A full work-year here is 1950 hours, so if he consistently made that, it would put him around 167k NOK / year. In comparison, median salary in Norway is is around 608k - so he made over 3.5x less than the median salary. It should be noted that salaries in Norway are very much centered around the mean, with not a whole lot of variance. The lowest paid workers, like cleaners, call center workers, etc. will make maybe 300k - 400k, while higher paid workers like engineers, lawyers, dentists, GPs, etc. will make 1.5x-3x the median or mean salary. In any case, gig workers seem to earn a horrible salary He'd live in poverty on a salary like that, and likely be better off by claiming welfare money.
- paulddraper 2y agoYeah the math is really important. Whether a magician at kids birthday parties, or food delivery, or hanging sheetrock you need to figure out how much you’re actually going to make.
- micromacrofoot 2y agothat's what they're counting on: people don't do the math - if the advertised salary was accurate minus costs i'd be surprised if they could stay in business
- piyuv 2y agoMaking videos about working at Wolt earns more money than actually working at Wolt
- chneu 2y agoI've had a ton of friends and coworkers do Lift/Uber/Dash and nobody I know actually makes a serious profit once they account for maintenance, consumables, fuel, healthcare, etc. The companies know this. They "dynamically" change the payout rate so nobody can actually make real money. This is in the US where these companies have been caught using "dynamic" pricing to screw everyone over.
- rel2thr 2y agoIllegal immigration has really hit gig work wages. So many people without valid work visas are sharing/renting uber and other accounts to do work. At least in Texas, I would guess 30-40% of gig workers are not legally allowed to be doing it.
- chaps 2y agoDo you have any source that would agree with your 30-40%?
- alephnerd 2y agoAnecdotally, around 40-55% of my DoorDash (YC S13) delivery drivers can only speak Spanish (I set my deliveries to require a PIN so I meet them), and the style of Spanish they speak is a Central American register (I think Honduran, El Salvadoran, and Guatemalan) based on accent and word choice. I'm not sure if they are "officially" illegal, but they are most likely waiting on an Asylum or Immigration hearing. This is in SF. I can also provide FB groups that sell DoorDash (YC S13) and Uber Eats delivery driver accounts to those who lack documentation if needed.
- chaps 2y agoI'm not sure if they are "officially" illegal, but they are most likely waiting on an Asylum or Immigration hearing. Seems like you've jumped from "they only speak spanish" to, "there's a very high chance that they're here illegally".
- alephnerd 2y ago> "they only speak spanish" to, "there's a very high chance that they're here illegally" Because you cannot get a Work Visa to work for DoorDash or Uber Eats, nor are most Central Americans eligible for Diversity Visas (excluding Guatemalans and Nicaraguans), nor is it family reunification as that has financial assistance requirements, nor are students on student visas legally allowed to work gig work roles. That only leaves Asylees waiting on immigration hearings (Venezolanos, Colombianos) or TPS (Honduras, El Salvador) - which isn't illegal immigration in formal terms. While TPS is a legally protected form of immigration, as the kid of immigrants who had to wait 16 years just to get a Green Card and were ineligible for a number of social service programs as naturalization includes proof of income sustainability, it grinds my gears because millions of immigrants have to prove employment or financial feasibility to come here. There's a reason why Latiné and Asian American voters saw a significant shift to Trump in 2024 (not me - dislike his admin - but I get where those swing voters were coming from). There needs to be immigration reform, but I absolutely don't have sympathy for economic migrants from Central America gumming up the works for an Afghan or Burmese asylee who will now get deported to countries in the midst of civil wars. And our inability to do so in the Biden admin is what allowed Trump to win in 2024.
- celeritascelery 2y agoI recently was traveling a lot and would take a uber multiple times a day. I asked all my drivers what they thought of the gig. To my surprise, most were pretty happy about it. The ones that were happy really liked the flexibility and autonomy. They could start and stop when they wanted, work where they wanted, take vacation when they wanted, etc. the ones that were unhappy complained about the pay and lack of benefits. It really drove home for me that a job is more than just wages. If your goal is to maximize your income, gig work is probably not for you. But the nice thing is, no one is making you do it. If you don’t like the pay, go do something else. But it seems like gig work fills a niche that works really well for some people.
- Tade0 2y agoMy most surprising encounter was an actual taxi. I asked the driver how does that work and he said that Uber fills the gaps in moments when he isn't getting any calls, as hardly anyone takes a taxi to travel short distances in the middle of the day. Indeed, I called an Uber because I was in the middle of house hunting and a taxi would be considerably more expensive.
- cute_boi 2y agoidk why government don't make law that clearly says, if someone works for more than 20 hours they should be considered full time employee and deserves all the extra perks and benefits.
- Gunax 2y agoPerhaps then it becomes 'You have reached your weekly maximum 19.5 hours. Come back next week for more work.'
- Buttons840 2y agoCan we restructure society so that the only perks and benefits of work is a paycheck? Healthcare should not be tied to our employer, for starters--and that's a big start. Is there anything else we need to decouple?
- antiquark 2y agoMoral of the story: don't be a gig worker.
- black_13 2y ago[dead]