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Are electric cars that much cheaper to operate?

• ojbyrne 2y ago
  After this sentence: "Are they truly the environmentally friendly option they claim to be?" I expected to see at least some comparison of the effect on the environment.
  • wing-_-nuts 2y ago
    They have gotten a lot more environmentally friendly as we've started to retire coal plants for natural gas, but the uncomfortable thing folks don't want to admit is that ICE cars have cleaned up their emissions a lot, and a big source of pollution generated from driving now days is actually particulates from the tires. That's something that's at least as bad, if not worse with EVs given they weigh much more than your standard ICE vehicle and thus have more tire wear.
    • ojbyrne 2y ago
      I understand there are lots of factors involved in the comparison, I just found it weird that the article used that sentence, and then never mentioned anything about environmental comparisons after that.
• OtherShrezzing 2y ago
  >Average Mid-Range EV Cost: €45,000 That's a fairly expensive mid-range EV.
• LinuxBender 2y ago
  Charging Costs: Home charging is significantly cheaper than public charging options. Missing from this is the percentage of people that can charge at home. Younger generations may never be able to afford a home. Even if apartment complexes start adding chargers the renters may have to eat that cost as part of their rent for some period of time.
  • lambda 2y ago
    You can also charge at work, which is actually generally better as the grid moves to more solar as then the demand lines up with generation. Employers need to step up their game and start offering charging if they want people in the office.
    • LinuxBender 2y ago
      You can also charge at work Very true. I've seen some tech companies doing this in conjunction with adding roof solar to get tax breaks. Are other industries stepping up as well? Of course in hind-sight I recall we had about 16 chargers at the time we had over 20k employees. There were a lot of Tesla's in the parking lot but many of those people were older and had homes. Those chargers also caused a lot of drama. People would unplug other peoples cars, the other people would send videos from their Tesla to corporate security. I would just park my old ICE truck near the front door since I got to work early.
      • vel0city 2y ago
        > Are other industries stepping up as well? A lot of commercial office spaces around me (DFW) have charging stations in their parking garages as a building amenity.
    • madcaptenor 2y ago
      In 2014 or 2015 I worked with a guy who wanted charging at the office. We didn't have it, so he just started running an extension cord from his car into the building. IIRC they got mad at him not for taking the electricity but because he was leaving the door ajar to do it.
    • DemPartyPooper 2y ago
      [flagged]
    • wing-_-nuts 2y ago
      Honestly, it's kind of blatantly transparent that corporate climate change initiatives are meaningless when they insist workers commute to the office when we just spent the last few years proving we would work from home. I'm thankful my employer still lets us WFH and it greatly helps our recruitment and retention.
• silexia 2y ago
  The electric grid cannot support everyone driving EVs and even if it could, the electricity is usually produced by coal plants or rare earth mined renewables that have an even greater environmental burden, just shifted out of cities and out of sight.
  • rehash3 2y ago
    The reason to use EVs is not just based on the source of electricity. In a traffic jam, the quality of air I breathe would be so much better if all vehicles were EVs.
  • kylebenzle 2y ago
    And all home heating used to be coal or wood but things seem to just keep changing.
  • bryanlarsen 2y ago
    We're not going to instantly switch to 100% EV's. Even if every single car sold in 2025 was an EV, most cars on the road would be gasoline. Doing the math, you find that grid requirements will increase about 1% per annum for about 20 years on a switch to EV's. Which is less impact than air conditioning and crypto/AI. If we can't expand the grid 1% a year, we've got other problems.
  • duxup 2y ago
    My local electric company is advertising that they install chargers. I suspect they can handle any realistic levels of adoption. I'm not sure that a hypothetical of an immediate switch with all the required vehicle and charger purchases and deliveries / installs happening like magic over night ... means anything.
  • namdnay 2y ago
    https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3 60% of US electricity is fossil fuels, and that's one of the higher mixes. Canada is 60% hydro for example And even if it were 100%, the efficiency of a power plant + electric network + electric car is higher than equivalent petrol transport + petrol car
• mdavid626 2y ago
  Don’t forget, that EV-s can depreciate faster than ICE-s (mainly because of innovation and price cuts). So you can loose more money on EV-s than you think.
  • nicce 2y ago
    The value drop is huge and makes EVs pretty much never better economically. There are some edge cases but then those cars don't have range. Or don't survive in winter.
    • mhandley 2y ago
      Of course the flip side is that nearly-new low-mileage EVs can very good value economically.
    • thebruce87m 2y ago
      > makes EVs pretty much never better economically Then buy one of these “huge” depreciated ones and end up massively better economically? Why is this even an argument?
      • nicce 2y ago
        Because the car is worthless after the battery dies.
        • thebruce87m 2y ago
          Just as an ICE is “worthless” when the engine dies, I’m not sure where the argument is here unless you are going to claim they fail quickly in which case I’d be asking for data to back this up. Note that the data will have to show them lasting more than 8 years / 100,000 miles since that is a standard warranty these days.
          • nicce 2y ago
            Engine lasts usually longer than many other parts in the car. 100 000 miles is like 4 years of driving for anyone who drives a bit more. This is about 70% battery capacity in most cases. Your car is already useless in winter. With reduced capacity the cold hits even harder. And only way to fix it is to buy a new battery for a one-third price of the new car.
• amimetic 2y ago
  This article doesn’t cover depreciation. Much harder to model but I’d assume quite important to consider.
  • philjohn 2y ago
    That's why the sensible buy their EV second hand. I got a 1 year old demonstrator with low miles (3500 on the clock) for 30% less than buying a brand new one. With an OBD dongle to check the true state of the battery, it's not a risky proposition, and the 7 year warranty on the car and 8 year warranty on the battery means I have some peace of mind.
    • slaw 2y ago
      I bought a new vehicle for 25% off MSRP, 30% off for a used one is not a good deal.
• freediver 2y ago
  Recent anecdote: I rented a Rivian R1S in Bay Area for a short trip to Santa Rosa. On the way back I charged at "Rivian adventure network" and the cost to charge was $0.68/kWh. Now, Rivian is a big car and this basically meant you are getting about 3 miles per dollar. A full 'charge' would have cost me nearly $100! But, an even bigger gasoline car - Lincoln Navigator - has 16 MPG, and even with gas prices in CA (currently ~$5 per gallon) you are looking at 3.2 miles per dollar. I was shocked by that, especially knowing that CA has excess solar capacity. Why the heck is electricity for charging so expensive? (I pay around $0.15/kWh last time I checked for my home)
  • tw04 2y ago
    That’s just obscene in general. I think the peak I’ve seen from Tesla in my area is less than .40/kWh. At home it’s less than .05 if you charge off hours.
  • g_d 2y ago
    [dead]
  • DemPartyPooper 2y ago
    [flagged]
  • fooblaster 2y ago
    rivian is overcharging a huge amount here versus base electric prices? I use L2 chargepoints for essentially all my charging and I average about 30 cents per kwh.
  • nickphx 2y ago
    Maybe the overhead of building and maintaining the infrastructure for vehicle charging?
  • Aurornis 2y ago
    > Why the heck is electricity so expensive? You’re paying for charging, not electricity. They charge what the market will bear. Right now they can charge what they want because you don’t have many alternatives. That said, CA electricity prices are high for a number of reasons. They have a lot of regulations for building anything. The red tape you have to work through to get anything built in CA is completely out of control, so anything requiring new construction (charging stations included) will have to pay off a lot of up front investment.
• waffletower 2y ago
  Not all EV models depreciate at the same rate, compare a Tesla Model 3 to a Nissan Leaf and draw your own conclusions.
  • bigstrat2003 2y ago
    It doesn't really make sense to bake depreciation into this sort of comparison. It's a loss on paper only until you realize it, so it should be its own separate item. That way you can factor it in (or not) depending on whether you plan to keep the car or sell it.
• theandrewbailey 2y ago
  The labels on all these charts are almost impossible to read in dark mode.
• UltraSane 2y ago
  IMHO elective cars don't make sense to buy unless you can charge it at home almost always.
  • duxup 2y ago
    That's my plan. I don't really want one unless I can plug it in at home, but I also want a plug in hybrid van and ... neither Toyota nor Honda make one.
  • dangus 2y ago
    I keep hearing this as if everyone buys cars purely based on cost and economics. EVs are held to this higher standard as if no other types of cars are purchased out of want more than need. Do off-road trucks driven in suburban areas make sense to buy? Do suburbanites driving F-150s but not doing any work with them make sense when a minivan is more economical as a family hauler? Does a two door sports car make sense? Does a big SUV make sense when you don’t take it to Home Depot every day and you would be just fine driving a small car like a Corolla? Do cars with extraneous features like massage seats and airbag suspension make sense? Jeep Wranglers? Ford Raptor? Dodge Charger Scat Pack? What if the owners just like to drive EVs and aren’t buying it to save money on fuel cost?
    • UltraSane 2y ago
      charging an electric car at a public charger is MUCH more expensive than doing it at home.
      • dangus 2y ago
        Yes I’m aware. And what does that have to do with my comment? There are probably a non-zero amount of EV owners who solely charge with public chargers. Those owners probably don’t care about cost. They want an EV for the other things they enjoy about it. Just about 100% of gasoline car owners don’t fill up at home.
        • UltraSane 2y ago
• bickfordb 2y ago
  There are a lot of semi-consumable ICE components that these comparisons often omit: mass airflow sensors, oxygen sensors, gaskets/seals, emissions components, starter batteries. These often cost in the $100-500 range/ea and the labor to replace them is at minimum $100/hr in my locality.
  • alphabettsy 2y ago
    Those definitely can be issues, but I can’t remember the last time, if ever, I had any of those other than a starter battery replaced before 100k miles.
    • r00fus 2y ago
      Smog checks, brake replacements and all the fluid/filter replacements are nontrivial regular costs. EVs have only wiper fluid, 12v batteries and air cabin filters to replace regularly. Brakes literally last the life of the vehicle.
  • Ekaros 2y ago
    Don't some electric cars also have 12V batteries? At least Porsche Taycan had one. And they can go bad and also might be drained more than on ICE.
    • vel0city 2y ago
      Practically all EVs commonly sold have 12V batteries.
    • Kirby64 2y ago
      They do, but most of the time they are smaller and cheaper. No need for huge cranking currents, really. The replacement for a Model 3 battery is about $90, for context.
• misiti3780 2y ago
  I have owned two different Teslas since 2020 and the only maintenance I have had to perform is new tires, tire rotation and adding wiper fluid.
• PTRFRLL 2y ago
  > EVs typically require 30% less maintenance than their ICE counterparts. In terms of cost followed by > Consumer Reports conducted a comprehensive survey... their findings confirm that BEVs and PHEVs typically incur maintenance costs that are approximately half that of ICE vehicles over the first 200,000 miles. Those numbers seem at odds with each other. Anecdotally, after 20k miles with a Tesla Model Y, the only maintenance required so far has been windshield wiper fluid.
  • ericpauley 2y ago
    I have a Honda Civic. 50k miles in and I’ve only spent on oil changes (and related minor work), which have been less than the cost of new tires and inspections. The 30-50% range sounds reasonable in this context.
    • PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
      200k on a Honda Fit. Oil, tire, wiper changes. 1 repair which cost about $2600.
      • hnburnsy 2y ago
        What about the air filter, engine coolant, brake fluid, in cabin air filter, transmission fluid, and spark plugs? :)
        • PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
          Managed to skip all that so far (the spark plugs (and coils) were the one repair). Oh, you're right, there was a transmission fluid change somewhere along the way.
    • qwerpy 2y ago
      I drove a Civic for 16 years or so. Great car, no major issues. I traded it in for a EV and I couldn't believe how much more convenient it was, starting from the buying experience. No car salesmen / dealership fee. Never go to a gas station again (and rarely need to go to a charger). No more maintenance every 6 months, some of them fairly expensive if you follow the manufacturer's maintenance schedule. I don't know if the finances actually work out to be cheaper but at this point I don't care. The regained time is worth it.
• everdrive 2y ago
  Given this analysis it sounds like the sweet spot is getting a used-but-still good EV. EVs suffer from extraordinary loss in resale value, almost on the scale of luxury vehicles. This actually works out though, if you can get something like an old Nissan LEAF for approximately $10k or so. The aggressive devaluation in price tips the scales of this analysis -- but of course not everyone can go and get a good deal on a used EV. (and of course, they need to have a place to charge it at home.)
  • slt2021 2y ago
    >EVs suffer from extraordinary loss in resale value do they? when I was shopping for EV, used Tesla mY were not much cheaper than new ones, especially in my needed configuration (3rd row seat). I ended up buying new to get federal and state tax credits that have made it no brainer to buy new. if you can qualify for tax incentives (federal and state) then buy new, otherwise buy used imo Teslas depreciate more based on the year (meaning features and design/hardware inside), not the actual mileage, because EVs dont have components with mechanical wear & tear
    • entropicdrifter 2y ago
      I picked up a used 2021 Kona EV in the Ultimate trim that had been a corporate lease previously. 28K miles on it. The original cost for it new was around $46K. I got it for ~$18,500 after the $4,000 federal used EV tax credit. I think part of the depreciation for the Kona in particular is due to its lackluster DC Fast charging top speeds, but if you plan to charge at home 99% of the time it's a phenomenal deal.
    • everdrive 2y ago
      Tesla and Nissan definitely are not equivalent in resale value, but you raise a good point; some brands are doing better than others in this case.
    • qwerpy 2y ago
      Do you get usage out of the 3rd row? I've had mine for almost 4 years and there has been exactly twice that I put someone in the 3rd row, and that person never wants to do it again.
• bryanlarsen 2y ago
  This is a better analysis than most. Most analyses by Consumer Reports etc try to compare 5 year costs. But when you try and do that, your answer becomes dominated by the trade-in value of a 5 year old EV vs a 5 year old ICE. That's a really hard, highly political task. Lifetime cost eliminates that and gets down to true costs. The 5 year value of the car shouldn't be in the calculations IMO. It has no impact on lifetime costs -- since it's subtracted from the costs of the original owner and added to the costs of the second zero, netting to 0. Also, people buying 5 year old cars tend to be more cost sensitive than those buying new cars. The value of a used car is primarily in the cost savings, so as consumers become more familiar with the costs & benefits of EV's, the trade in value should converge on a price which makes lifetime cost analysis and 5 year cost tradeoff analysis give similar answers.
  • frumper 2y ago
    Nowadays, people probably haven't paid off their car in 5 years either. Average new car loan is 68 month term. https://tucson.com/news/nation-world/business/personal-finance/average-length-of-a-car-loan-nears-70-months/collection_fe4ce6aa-dd6d-5b41-a88e-41144d112527.html#1 https://tucson.com/news/nation-world/business/personal-finan...
    • bryanlarsen 2y ago
      Anecdotally, many people start considering trading in their cars once their loan is no longer underwater, not after it's paid off. Myself, I'm hoping to enjoy not having car payments as long as I can...
  • spicybbq 2y ago
    Yes, the used EV market is still young. The oldest Model Ys are from 2020, and Model 3s go back to 2017. Consumers do not have much experience with used EVs, so they are cautious and prices are low. As time goes by, if older EVs prove to be reliable, used prices will go up. There is already evidence that battery replacement is rare: https://www.motortrend.com/features/ev-battery-lifespan-degradation-replacement-cost-study/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/ev-battery-lifespan-degr...
• garaetjjte 2y ago
  They won't be when they will get taxed. Governments won't just give up revenue from fuel tax.
  • spacebanana7 2y ago
    I can imagine many governments introducing new taxes to both ICE and BEV vehicles to make up for the lost revenue. Specific sales taxes/VAT, per mile road pricing, and annual road taxes are all options.
• wing-_-nuts 2y ago
  For me, it's not just a question of cost, it's also a question resiliency. I am totally willing to 'spend', making a financially sub-optimal decision if it means that I'm reducing my dependence on external inputs to live my life. When I think of my 'forever home' I intend to have enough solar capacity to cover my needs, even in winter, a battery bank, a simple, no frills, dead reliable ev (toyota get on this!), an ebike, and even stuff like a greenhouse and aquaponics setup. Think solarpunk show home, lol. Now, will the above have a financial return on investment? Probably not. Will it help me sleep at night, comfortable in the knowledge that I'm at least a little more insulated from unexpected events than the average person.
  • lolc 2y ago
    I think reliability was one important part missed by the analysis. If the car has to go to the shop, no matter how cheap or insignificant the job, that's still half a day lost.
• darth_avocado 2y ago
  One thing this article doesn’t account for: American dealership model. I was fully onboard with buying a new ICE car because it was supposed to be cheaper. Enter the American car salesman. Dealerships refused to give you a final estimate without you walking in into the dealership. When you did, they often want to sell you cars that they have on the lot over what you want. The feature packages they have are designed to maximize money: want blind spot detector, you need to buy premium leather seats as well. Then finally once you decide on everything, the car is $10k more expensive and financing is very scummy if you don’t do the math yourself. Compare that to Tesla. You can schedule an online test drive. When you arrive your car is prepared and preloaded with a route, you check in and someone will verify your id and. Answer any of your questions. Once you’re done with the drive, you can order the car online. The price you see is the price you pay. They don’t finance the cars themselves, they field quotes for you and get you the best APR. And occasionally they’ll have 0% APR on financing. In the end, it cost me less money to buy a EV than an ICE, for the same amount of specs. All because of the American dealership model.
  • wing-_-nuts 2y ago
    The last time I bought an ICE car 15 years ago, I browsed online, found some cars I was interested in, emailed their sales team and said 'I'm choosing between x,y, and z, give me your best out the door offer and you'll get my business'. A couple dealerships tried to pull the 'come in and let's talk' but a few just gave me a price. We went back and forth for a day or so and I eventually got them to a price I was happy with. I then replied 'Ok, I'm coming this friday with a cashier's check, if the price isn't exactly what we agreed when I get there, I'm walking out the door'. Best car buying experience I've ever had. You just gotta set boundaries and enforce them.
    • darth_avocado 2y ago
      Dealers right now would rather not sell than put up with boundaries. Unfortunately the experience has gotten only worse.
      • 2y ago
• legitster 2y ago
  140,000k to 200,000k to break-even just on operating costs is insane. That's much longer than I would expect. Keep in mind some of these models would also lose 60% in depreciation in that time. On the other hand, I would like a realistic cost-of-ownership for used EVs. You can pick them up cheap as chips and that would make the equation very favorable.
  • dangus 2y ago
    The article says kilometers, not miles. That’s about 86,000-125,000 miles. I don’t think that sounds insane. Every car I buy new I intend to keep for at least 100,000 miles. Otherwise, buying new is something of a waste of money in itself. And like you said, used changes the equation quite a bit.
    • legitster 2y ago
      Sure, but the difference is the selling feature is the economy! OP is presenting nearly identical cars. If you just step back and think of it as an upgrade that won't save you money for 8-10 years, and will make your car's resale value lower. Add in the fact that the average buyer is financing, the savings are going to get eaten by the interest. If you do the same math for a hybrid or PHEV, the numbers come out much better.
      • dangus 2y ago
        This logic doesn’t make sense. We don’t prescribe the same selling point of a vehicle based solely on its power train type. Are the BMW i8 or Acura NSX “economy” cars because they have hybrid engines? Is the selling feature of the Lucid Air Sapphire the economy? I don’t think so, it’s designed to be the fastest sports sedan on the track. Is the selling feature of the VW ID Buzz the economy? No, it’s designed to be the most stylish, colorful, and best driving minivan on the market. It’s a fashion statement more than a practical vehicle. While it is practical, the practicality/economy of it isn’t why people buy it. Is the Hummer EV’s main selling point economy? Of course not. Again, same thing with gasoline cars. They are sold on all kinds of different attributes and not all of them are 100% about dollars per mile.
• xnx 2y ago
  Article doesn't seem to mention tire cost or resale value at all? There was a much more detailed analysis (including insurance, etc.) of ICE vs. BEV on HN previously.
  • frumper 2y ago
    We have an ICE mid-sized SUV and a model Y. Costco installed tires are within a few dollars of each other. There were more options for the ICE vehicle was the main difference. There are a lot of variables to really make a detailed analysis, it's a personal thing. If you ask 100 people on HN how much electricity costs at their home, you'll probably get close to 100 different answers.
    • xnx 2y ago
      Good data point. Tire sets are similar prices, but EV tires tend to have to be changed more frequently because of vehicle weights and higher acceleration (driver dependent).
      • fragmede 2y ago
        Depends on the EV and how you want to compare. Tesla's are running 19's stock which are gonna be a whole lot pricier than, eg a Honda Civic's 14's, no matter the rating (of which the Tesla's is gonna be higher rates).
• waffletower 2y ago
  Electricity costs vary region to region, as well as the proportion of clean energy sources that power the local grid. I am lucky to live in the US Northwest where there is a very high percentage of hydro-electric and wind powering our grid and our electricity costs are comparatively low (now ~$0.20 per kwh) -- note the large number of data centers headquartered in Central Oregon. Also note, the region (Oregon and Washington principally) is a net exporter of electricity. I drove a Nissan Leaf for 8 1/2 years, and have driven a Tesla Model Y for 4, and the cost of ownership for both vehicles are significantly less than any ICE vehicle I have ever operated. Surprisingly, the Tesla is actually somewhat more efficient in my experience than the 2012 Leaf, particularly on the highway, despite weighing considerably more. I almost always (95%+) charge at home. Admittedly, our electricity costs were significantly lower (~$0.12) for many years before the recent rate hikes.
  • lotsofpulp 2y ago
    In Washington, at $0.10 per kWh, over 200k miles, the Model Y at $42k was the same cost as a Highlander or equivalent $50k to $60k car. Due to higher tire costs and depreciation. And Washington has some of the highest gas prices in the country. However, Model Y was still preferable to buy since it's so convenient to charge at home, and it is convenient to never have to do oil changes and all that crap. Plus it drives much better than a Highlander or equivalent ICE. If only it had CarPlay. But if my electricity costs were like California or NYC, I would easily opt for a hybrid ICE.
    • smoovb 2y ago
      Am paying 0.044 per kWh with super off peak timed home charging 11pm - 7am in Washington.
  • jp191919 2y ago
    Some places in eastern Washington only pay $.02/kwh! I'm in a medium sized city in the northwest I pay $.08/kwh. It's substantially cheaper to operate my Model 3 than my previous BMW 335d ($.02/mile vs $.16/mile)
• throwaway_20357 2y ago
  Which geography was this analysis made for? It seems model market share is for the US while prices are listed in EUR in the first part and USD in the latter? A German perspective: Households pay between $0.30 and $0.40 per kWh, Diesel is at around $1.60-$1.70/l and it is safe to assume 6l/100km for a Diesel car. I was never able to consistently drive an EV at < 20 kWh/100km, in Winter it's more 25kWH/100km for certain ones (I look at you Mercedes EQB) it was closer to 30kWH. To account for the full cost of car ownership I can recommend the methodology of the ADAC (German Automobile Club, Germany only: https://assets.adac.de/Autodatenbank/Autokosten/autokostenuebersicht.pdf https://assets.adac.de/Autodatenbank/Autokosten/autokostenue...).
  • janalsncm 2y ago
    Not just that, the BYD Song which is listed in the first chart isn’t even available for sale in the US.
  • diblasio 2y ago
    Your numbers are a bit higher than what I get here in NL. Even in winter (0-5°C), my EV stays below 19 kWh/100km, and in ideal conditions (20-25°C), it’s around 15 kWh/100km. Data from Teslamate (sorry for the ugly format): Temp: 35°C | Efficiency: 77.3% | Consumption: 177 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 94.6 km/h Temp: 30°C | Efficiency: 70.6% | Consumption: 194 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 75.8 km/h Temp: 25°C | Efficiency: 88.7% | Consumption: 154 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 64.6 km/h Temp: 20°C | Efficiency: 93.8% | Consumption: 146 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 61.9 km/h Temp: 15°C | Efficiency: 81.1% | Consumption: 169 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 55.8 km/h Temp: 10°C | Efficiency: 79.9% | Consumption: 171 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 54.9 km/h Temp: 5°C | Efficiency: 77.0% | Consumption: 177 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 54.5 km/h Temp: 0°C | Efficiency: 73.0% | Consumption: 187 Wh/km | Avg Speed: 50.2 km/h
    • entropi 2y ago
      I would assume at least some of the difference comes from the autobahn conditions. Also, from what I have been able to observe, EVs are absurdly underrepresented in the autobahns.
• mtrovo 2y ago
  I appreciate the discussion about total cost of ownership. My family is looking into our first EV mainly because of the impression of lower running costs. However, the more I read, the more I realize that a fair comparison is far more complex than just fuel savings. One thing I keep wondering, especially with the high break-even numbers, is what about battery life and replacement costs. That could really wreck any savings forecast, or am I missing something? Also, our family does not drive a huge amount each year, so figuring out if we would even hit that break-even point is still on the table. I also noticed depreciation for EVs can be more aggressive, so buying a 2-year-old car could, in theory, significantly lower your break-even point compared to a new one, without increasing maintenance costs too much.
  • asdff 2y ago
    The thing with EVs is that there is so much uncertainty in the platform. Is this an actual reliable car or will it crap out due to some byzantine electronics issue in 5 years? Meanwhile a 4 cylinder dead simple economy gas car is pretty much commodified by automakers at this point. You change the oil, timing belt, brakes, tires, and live somewhere where they don’t salt the roads that car can probably run for half a century making 30mpg costing you pennies in comparison in insurance and registration because its small and slow. It is a known quantity. 4 cylinder ice with same old 4spd auto or 5spd manual is a solved science like a hammer or a tube amplifier is at this point.
    • dzhiurgis 2y ago
      First and second generation Teslas are definitely to be avoided, but even 3rd gen is super cheap now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu97Hq-KoBo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bu97Hq-KoBo
    • creeble 2y ago
      Yes and no. Ask Hyundai / KIA owners about the oil consumption in their brand-new engines. Or even 2012-2015 Prius owners about the new head gaskets they will eventually all need. Even brand-new ICE cars are not without their risks.
  • 2y ago
• system7rocks 2y ago
  Maintenance is an interesting piece to consider to this. I also just love the quiet of my EV. Got it used and paid cash, still under $100k miles. We charge at home for the most part and have experienced broken charging systems. Some of these EVs are dead simple to maintain - are the tires inflated? Did you get the breaks checked? Is it charging okay? Obviously, if you start having electrical system problems, it can get pricey. Nice to have a warranty of some kind then. But the same is true of ICE vehicles if you start leaking oil, have electronics fail, and so on. I still remember spending so much time getting a motherboard component replaced in a 1994 Ford Thunderbird that was exhibiting bizarre behavior. Just had my trusted 2009 Mazda 5 blow a head gasket outside of Santa Fe over the winter break. I'm grieving. But no, I'm not going to buy a new engine for that car and probably had spent too much already on it over the years. Sigh.
  • rrr_oh_man 2y ago
    > Just had my trusted 2009 Mazda 5 blow a head gasket outside of Santa Fe over the winter break. I'm grieving. But no, I'm not going to buy a new engine for that car and probably had spent too much already on it over the years. Sigh. ...why would you need a new engine if your head gasket fails? Did you keep driving after it failed?
    • system7rocks 2y ago
      We were on the interstate. It happened so quick. Coolant somehow mixed in with the oil, engine seized. The car had almost 180k miles on it. It is what it is.
    • eightyfive 2y ago
      Apples/oranges/not my car, but I had a similar situation in my 2011 Impreza and was staring at a $3500 repair bill for the head gasket. If you get the work done, there’s a litany of other things you really ought to do while you’re there (water pump, belts, etc). Sure, it’s not a new engine, and it’s certainly less than a new engine would cost, but either would be nearly as much or more than the vehicle is actually worth. For a 16 year old vehicle, almost any repair other than basic tires/brakes/etc can be “fatal” if you’re not doing your own wrenching. If you do opt to pay, you’re gambling on what else might be lurking around the corner.
• salynchnew 2y ago
  I know people hate electric-ICE combos, but charging at home for next to nothing, running 90% of local trips on battery only, and not having any charging downtime if we go somewhere that hasn't caught up with EV charging is pretty nice.
  • schmookeeg 2y ago
    I am on record as loving our BMW i3 and its Range Extender. :) The German over-engineering of stupid things has been it's primary downfall, not the ICE+EV combo. We are approaching the end of our extended warranty period, and we have had two failures -- electrically actuated rear trunk latch and our electrically actuated charge-port-cover latch. Both ridiculous and unnecessary. Both about $4K at the dealership, with no real viable alternatives. Unfortunately, we are likely to replace it due to the obscene repairs of minor and unnecessary components. I don't think there is anything else similar coming out. We won't be considering the RAMCharger, which is at least the same idea :)
• tashoecraft 2y ago
  Whilst I understand the intention in comparing the average ICE to EV in order to get the larger upfront cost for the EV, I've never known anyone to shop like that. This argument was used against the Prius as well, "it's a 40k car where you could get something comparable for 25k, you'll never make up the cost of gas between the two". But that's not how the high majority of people shop for cars. They figure out their budget, then go around that. If you're in the market and can afford a 40k car, it's unlikely you'd go and get a 25k one, and vice versa, if you're looking for a 25k car, you're not going to go spend 40k because it's an EV. So while it's nice to known that a more expensive EV will recoup its costs compared to a lower priced IC, for most, they're looking at a 40kIC vs a 40k EV, (post savings, rebates, etc) that hit the monthly payment they're looking for, and in that instance, the EV is going to win 99% of the time.
  • Marsymars 2y ago
    I mean, I bought my car based on it being the cheapest option that met my needs. I have friends/family who’ve done the same.
• DamnInteresting 2y ago
  I own a Chevy Bolt EV, one of the less expensive EVs on the US market (after tax rebates, it was about $30k USD). I purchased it in May 2017, so I've had almost 8 years with this car. I feel like a lot of these write ups overlook other advantages of EVs. Some of my favorite things about this car: * It is very quiet, inside and out * It is very torquey, moving instantly when I push the accelerator * One-pedal driving is very pleasant * Charging at home feels like an incredible luxury (which it is) Occasionally I am required to drive my wife's Corolla, and despite being in good repair, it feels like driving an old jalopy; it vibrates constantly, it smells vaguely of exhaust, it moves forward on its own when I release the brakes, and it doesn't slow down much when I release the accelerator. There is also the time factor. Stopping at the gas station costs time, oil changes cost time, etc. I had to refill the windshield washer fluid a few days ago, and the tires need to be rotated occasionally, but that's about it so far. It is true that EVs depreciate quickly, but for someone like me, who intends to drive it until the wheels come off, that's of little concern. Also, due to the battery's thermal management, I have not observed any meaningful loss in average range yet (though I did receive the battery replacement recall a few years into my ownership, so the battery is only ~5 years old). Your mileage may vary, as they say.
  • the_gastropod 2y ago
    I picked up a second-hand Bolt a few months ago, and couldn't agree more. It's such an underrated car. I paid $13k for a 2023 base model. Couldn't be happier with it.
    • vannevar 2y ago
      The Bolt is far and away the best value EV on the used market, it's crazy that you can get a thermally managed battery and 250 miles of range for under $15k.
    • vondur 2y ago
      I was looking at one; they are really cheap. I seen some 2 year old models for less than 20k with sub 40k miles. My wife ended up getting a new Subaru Outback so I took over her older Subaru Crosstrek Plugin Hybrid, which allows me to get to work on less than one charge.
• philjohn 2y ago
  I bought a 1 year old low mileage Kia EV6 (AWD GT Line) - 3500 miles on the odometer. This means I avoided the first year depreciation. But having an EV also allowed me onto the Intelligent Octopus Go tariff ... which gives the entire house electricity for 7p per kWh during intelligent dispatches (half hour blocks where the grid is greenest and if you're plugged in they'll charge your car) but also between the hours of 23:30 and 05:30. Because I have a PV array + battery storage, and can charge from the grid, in the winter I charge the battery overnight, and most days get to 23:30 with charge left in the battery because the Solar has been enough to keep me topped up during the day. So my cost for electricity over the winter, because I have an EV, was about 6.9p per kWh. This all factors in to make it a no-brainer for me. Driving for around 2p per mile (versus 20p per mile in my previous car, a 1l Focus Ecoboost), but also my household usage even in the winter is much cheaper. And then during the summer I build up a big buffer of credit by exporting excess Solar.
• jopsen 2y ago
  Besides cost, joy, the environment, home charging, another often overlooked benefit is: resilience to an oil crisis. Unlike the US, Europe doesn't have a shale gas industry. What if there is a conflict in the middle east, or worse. Sadly, the world feels a lot less peaceful these days.
  • okanat 2y ago
    It can be significantly hard to get home charging in Europe, however. There is also a much better, more environmentally friendly option available in Europe: extensive public transport. Moreover cities are dense here. So a bike is more useful and much quicker than waiting in tens of traffic lights. Average income of Europeans is lower too. So I think it is way better to invest in better public transport is a much better deal for everybody.
• deleted 2y ago
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• rfwhyte 2y ago
  Another factor worth considering is that the cost of fuel is almost certainly going to go up substantially over the next decade due to dwindling oil supplies, ever increasing fuel taxes and possible global supply-shocks, but the cost per KWH of renewable power generation is effectively halving every year or two, so while the cost per KM traveled with an ICE vehicle will most likely range from remaining relatively the same to increasing substantially, the cost per passenger KM traveled of electric vehicles will likely range from staying relatively flat to decreasing substantially. Personally I'd much rather buy an (electric) vehicle that at least has the potential for operating costs to decline year over year, than an (ICE) vehicle that's almost certainly going to see operating costs increase year over year as fuel prices inevitably go up.
• m463 2y ago
  if you want a math-checks-out cheap EV, just get an older leaf. * less than $3k * use it around town for grocery-getting. It won't have the original range, but for convenience it is very nice. Never visit the gas station. charge with 110. You can leave the AC on while you're in the store. very few things to maintain. https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=nissan%20leaf&min_price=100&sort=priceasc https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss... EDIT: actually a couple years back ~2015 or so, a 3-4 year old leaf could go for $7-8k because people were afraid of used EV batteries. In comparison, used teslas seemed to hold their values better. But that was mostly because tesla understood and sort of propped up their used ev market. I think if tesla didn't buy back their cars, used EVs would have been less expensive all along.
  • schmookeeg 2y ago
    A Leaf was our first EV. I still maintain that if I had kids of driving-age, this would be my ideal first-car for them. Short leash, easy to drive around, room for friends, but not much scope to get into big trouble with. Holy cow they're cheap now. Note that they can be absurdly bad in cold/rainy weather -- which prompted the sale of ours in Portland. Our ostensibly "80mi" EV got about 22mi once before howling for a charge, and that spelled "Adios Sparky" for us :)
• I_dream_of_Gen1 2y ago
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• MagicMoonlight 2y ago
  Lmao where are you getting these figures? EVs basically don’t need servicing. It’s not 30% cheaper, more like 90% cheaper. My car’s manual only has 5 components listed, and two of those are fluid changes. I bought a top spec 50k EV for 18k with 16000 miles. It averages 4 miles/KWh. Run the numbers on that and tell me I’m losing out.
  • Marsymars 2y ago
    >50% of servicing costs in my ICE have been components that an EV would have too. Suspension components, a button on the steering wheel controls, a seatbelt latch, an exterior rubber trim piece, the wiper fluid squirter things on the hood, etc.
• kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  I think to a different energy need I have - heating - and how much substantially cheaper it is to heat my home with gas than electricity in Southern California. That despite much of our energy being generated with natural gas, probably in a much more efficient way than my furnace does. The problem is how incredibly greedy California electric companies are. Hearing about PG&E’s and SDG&E’s profits is depressing. A serious proposal to lower electric costs in California could turn this state slightly less blue. That bad.
  • Marsymars 2y ago
    > That despite much of our energy being generated with natural gas, probably in a much more efficient way than my furnace does. Assuming modern equipment and California weather, your gas furnace will be more efficient at gas to heat than a gas plant supplying electric resistive heat, but less efficient than a gas plant powering a heat pump.
• smoovb 2y ago
  > With two oil changes needed per year at an average cost of $100 each, the additional expense shortens the break-even period by approximately 0.5 years. Add 10 mins there and back, the booking and you're looking at 1hr for this event. If it costs $100 and you consider your time, gas too and from... You could easily bump this cost to $200, or double in real costs.
• hacknews20 2y ago
  I went back to diesel and can say for certain the EV was more expensive to operate and buy (at least in the UK) than my new diesel pickup.
• janalsncm 2y ago
  What is the source of the most popular cars dataset? BYD Song isn’t available in the US, maybe it’s a worldwide dataset?
• navaed01 2y ago
  Owner of high-end hybrid EV. Hybrids are still new to many car garages, which means skills to fix issues are not optimized. It took 3 weeks and $9k to figure out my hybrid wouldn’t start due to a faulty basic EV component (fortunately under warranty). In addition cost of fuel cell replacement pushes up cost and risk of ownership and can be common at 70-80k miles. I hate to say it, but I am actually considering a trade in for gasoline.
  • pornel 2y ago
    Battery-only EVs have a much simpler drive train, and longer-lasting batteries. Hybrids are not simply EV+ICE, they have very different kind of batteries (low-voltage, high C-rate). In a hybrid, you have a battery that is 1/10th of the size, so the battery works 10x harder – needs to discharge at higher rate to move the car by itself, and usually there's no room for proper cooling of the battery. In a BEV you have 10x more modules working at 1/10th of that rate, and there's battery management system keeping it at optimal temperature. Batteries live longer when they're kept in 20-80% state of charge, and don't like to be cycled deeply. Small hybrid batteries get charged and discharged fully quite regularly, while the same distance needs only 10% of BEVs battery.
• wc304 2y ago
  Does anyone know of a US based service/platform to connect apartment dwellers with nearby homeowners for EV charging? None come to mind but that seems like a way to bridge that gap.
• diebeforei485 2y ago
  One solution for people who don't have driveways or garages is that the cars drive themselves to fast chargers. This can be done while people are at work, or sleeping etc. They would probably have to be wireless/inductive charging, which is very efficient with correct positioning (which can be achieved using RF technology for positioning - similar to AirTags).
• bborud 2y ago
  There's a joke that goes something like "how long is a piece of string". In order to figure out how much it costs to own a given car you have to create a model you can plug a bunch of numbers into. For our cars, fuel and electricity is not what drives cost since we don't drive all that much. The petrol car is about 5-6 times more expensive to service per year and it is about 3 times as expensive to insure.
• hoseja 2y ago
  I was hoping for hard data, this seems like a lot of simply simulated assumptions instead. Also, €100 is not "30% less" than €300, it's either just "30%" or "66% less" (~)
• throwaway48476 2y ago
  Unless you live in a 'green' state that taxes them more than gas cars, yes.
• kbos87 2y ago
  The biggest question for me is depreciation. My 2022 Model Y in perfect condition with 50k miles on it is probably worth less than 1/3 of what I paid for it. That’s very tough to stomach. As we think about offloading the Tesla, I’m left wondering if this is a point in time issue (due to Tesla dropping prices so dramatically, their brand being in the gutter, lingering post-pandemic market effects, slowly evolving consumer hesitations about EVs) or a permanent reality where EVs will just never command the resale value that ICE cars do. On the other side of the equation, there are some great deals to be had in the used EV market. We added a second EV last year and saved in the neighborhood of $20,000 on a Volvo XC40 Recharge that might as well have been new.
• alsoforgotmypwd 2y ago
  Wrong metric to be optimizing for in the short term. Widespread adoption will drive down costs and is necessary to greatly reduce net GHG pollution.
• Night_Thastus 2y ago
  I only recently started my car ownership journey. My first car is a 2023 Toyota Corolla. I would have liked electric, but options for a small/basic/simple/cheap electric sedan are very few, leaving you pretty much with only one brand that has some serious QC issues among...other...problems. I considered hybrid - but given the amount I drive I felt the break-even was very far away, if you accounted for any additional costs in maintenance in the long run (like eventual battery replacement). Now I think I regret that choice because eventually the resale value would have been better from what I understand, but oh well. I think by the time I get my next car in ~10-15 years, I'll go electric - assuming there's a product that fits my needs. By that time hopefully most of the manufacturers will have gotten a handle on it, working out the kinks and making the experience better. Right now it feels like they're all still floundering a little. Prices are too high, all of them seem to be having technical problems, and the product selection is a bit weak.
• ChoGGi 2y ago
  Why is that pie chart so heavy?