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> Arguably his reprimand of Martin is a clear signal that he will never show Rust any favor That doesn't really have anything to do with Rust; but with Hector'

• wbl 2y ago
  The DMA infrastructure is core to drivers. Saying no to having a wrapper to use it in rust means every rust driver needs to reimplement it, which creates more work and issues.
  • arp242 2y ago
    I am aware. Doesn't mean it's not an option, or even a bad idea. Or maybe there is a third option; I don't know. By the way: I don't agree with Hellwig, insofar I can judge things, I'm just saying his opinion is valid, and that "Linus agreed on Rust, so therefore we can merge this patch" is not really a valid argument.
    • Tuna-Fish 2y ago
      It's just really, really dumb to both a) have rust drivers in the kernel and b) not merge this patch. It's just obviously stupid. If you start with the assumption of a), there are no valid technical challenges to merging it. It's just better for everyone. Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks", he made a series of technical arguments against the patch, which were all transparently bullshit. It was those arguments that really raised such a furor, instead of all the other ways some C devs have disdained rust in the kernel in the past, because they were obviously made in bad faith. And when he was called out for them, he just went full "no rust in kernel".
      • arp242 2y ago
        > Before Hellwig put his foot down as "not merging because rust sucks" He didn't say this at all. He explicitly and repeatedly said he has no problems with Rust as a language. And you can't just assert "there are no valid technical reasons". Just because you don't agree with the objections, or even think they're dumb, doesn't mean you can just dismiss them and start ascribing bad faith motives.
        • sdwr 2y ago
          It's pretty clear that the battle over rust is a power struggle. You can't take any of it at face value
          • arp242 2y ago
            So what are you saying? That it's okay to just invent quotes and spread misinformation about people, based on what you suspect their true thoughts might be?
            • Ar-Curunir 2y ago
              You’re the one doing that by pretending that Hellwig is acting contrary to his own statements.
            • tw1984 2y ago
              wait a second, I thought you are the one labelling people as "toxic" when completely ignoring the context that really matters.
        • cyberax 2y ago
          He literally called "Rust" a "cancer".
          • arp242 2y ago
            He literally did not. He literally explicitly said right there in the (in)famous "cancer" message that it didn't refer to Rust as a language.[1] "And I also do not want another maintainer. If you want to make Linux impossible to maintain due to a cross-language codebase do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this cancer to core subsystems. (where this cancer explicitly is a cross-language codebase and not rust itself, just to escape the flameware brigade)." Stop spreading this kind of misinformation. And no, I don't think he came off very well here, but please, give it a good faith reading.[2] [1]: https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250128092334.GA28548@lst.de/ https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250128092334.GA28548@lst.de/ [2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42977720 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42977720
  • ww520 2y ago
    Just curious. Why can't the wrapper be an independent library outside of the DMA infrastructure? It can still be used by all rust drivers. I think Hellwig is against moving the wrapper into the DMA project that he's forced to maintain it.
    • loeg 2y ago
      No, Hellwig also Nack'd the patch that added the wrapper to an independent library outside of the core C DMA directory.
      • ww520 2y ago
        Why would he do that? He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? I thought he said he's fine with any drivers written in Rust. Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap.
        • loeg 2y ago
          > Why would he do that? It's a great question. I mean, my read of it is he hates the idea of Rust4Linux and is using his position to obstruct. > He has no control over an independent library outside of C DMA? Apparently not. > Just that the maintenance of such including any wrapper cannot fall into C DMA's lap. The patch he rejected did not add any code to C DMA, nor C DMA's directory (kernel/dma). Just: rust/bindings/bindings_helper.h | 1 + rust/kernel/dma.rs | 271 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ rust/kernel/lib.rs | 1 + (Nor does any Rust4Linux code add any maintenance burden to C -- C maintainers are allowed to break Rust code at will.)
          • saghm 2y ago
            This isn't even just your read of it; as other people in this thread have pointed out, he's pretty explicitly stated it at this point.
        • dralley 2y ago
• e40 2y ago
  > Threatening a social media campaign to out people is completely toxic behaviour. This is a long-term contributor who is perhaps a bit abrasive, not Jimmy fucking Saville. I'm no where near in the loop on this, but that sounds incredibly toxic. Are there some good links to summarize this? EDIT: OK, these are fully enough to allow me to understand the issue. Marcan: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98c3-a48ab35bb9db@marcan.st/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/208e1fc3-cfc3-4a26-98... Linus: https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSUGq8vUZAOWWSK1vrJarMaOhReDRQRYQ@mail.gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/CAHk-=wi=ZmP2=TmHsFSU... I must say, I think I'm on Linus' side on this one. EDIT2: I was a $$ supporter of Marcan for over a year on github. I was predisposed to believe him, I'd say.
  • soraminazuki 2y ago
    https://archive.is/rESxe https://archive.is/rESxe This is a recurring pattern I see with drama in some open source communities, where people measure others using yardsticks they themselves don't live up to. People can't post stuff like this while accusing everyone in the vicinity except themselves of bad behavior. Choose one.
    • account42 2y ago
      Yikes, at great example of how not all thoughts that pop into your head should be publicised.
      • CRConrad 2y ago
        Hm, good thing I'm not a Linux maintainer. 'Coz that first C in my username... (My given name is the only thing about me that has anything to do with "Christ".)
  • lll-o-lll 2y ago
    I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356@wind.enjellic.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers, but it doesn’t mean we should through our hands up and consider things “unfixable” either.
• agoodusername63 2y ago
  I'm usually very critical of how Torvolds treats the people around him and the culture he maintains but this is a rare case when I'm not really against Torvalds on this. I've had to remove Hector's postings from my feeds because he just constantly bitches and complains about pretty much everything. He's capable, smart, and is doing more than anybody ever will for Apple hardware. But he desperately needs to Stop Posting. Without anybody he works with regularly to give him a reality check, I don't think he's going to change course. I think Hector has some valid complaints about the contribution process to the kernel, I know. It fucking sucks ass and I've given up on trying. But screaming the way he does is counter productive to improving it
  • ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • dmix 2y ago
      This is the logic that generates generic corporate PR speak and a fear of being honest in organizational communication. It's not a more 'adult' world, it's just heavily sanitized. Calling something "a cancer in x" is a common analogy, we know what they mean.
      • ToucanLoucan 2y ago
        [flagged]
  • xenago 2y ago
    I feel the exact same. Marcan has done amazing work, and his random blog entries etc have saved me hours of debugging time in the past. But jeez, it is really painful to see him say absolute nonsense like "If shaming on social media does not work, then tell me what does, because I'm out of ideas." - he has gotta Stop Posting and keep those kinds of thoughts away from his keyboard.
    • hajile 2y ago
• hitekker 2y ago
  One lesson I feel we can all learn from this is that social media really should not be used for self-therapy.
• steveklabnik 2y ago
  > no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel This drama included the dma maintainer saying he is categorically opposed to any Rust in any part of the kernel.
  • arp242 2y ago
    Where? Because "keep the wrappers in your code" and "do that in your driver so that you have to do it instead of spreading this" doesn't sound like that.
    • derhuerst 2y ago
      This [0] seems to be the closest to your parent's statement: > The common ground is that I have absolutely no interest in helping to spread a multi-language code base. I absolutely support using Rust in new codebase, but I do not at all in Linux. [0] https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250204052916.GA28741@lst.de/ https://lwn.net/ml/all/20250204052916.GA28741@lst.de/
      • Pet_Ant 2y ago
        He needs really to be removed from the process. He may be useful for now but for long term he is an impediment. C is the 1970’s. Sure it’s proven itself… but so had Assembly when Unix was invented.
        • account42 2y ago
          This kind of zealotry is not going to convince people over to accept Rust into their projects.
    • cycomanic 2y ago
      He said explicitely: >Every additional bit that another language creeps in drastically reduces the maintainability of the kernel as an integrated project. The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language completely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. I think that clearly means he is out to sabotage any other language than C making it into Linux.
• honeybadger1 2y ago
  Completely agree with you.
• iknowstuff 2y ago
  > no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel Dude, this was literally caused by a stubborn maintainer, Hellwig, saying he wants NO second language in the kernel at all, and his explicit vow to do anything he can to stop it.
  • pverghese 2y ago
    And there is no issue with that. What's this pervasive need to spread Rust to every part of the software space. It's just becoming a little too pushy and desperate
    • johnny22 2y ago
      c'mon.. please know about the issue at all to some level before commenting. The rust for linux project exists because Linus approved it. It's that simple. Linus thinks it a good idea to at least try Rust in the kernel. If he didn't, then none of this would be happening.
      • account42 2y ago
        That may be what you want the situation to be but at this point it isn't what the situation is.
      • CRConrad 2y ago
        > The rust for linux project exists because Linus approved it. It's that simple. Linus thinks it a good idea to at least try Rust in the kernel. Pepople can change their minds; after a while, they may come to think that what they once thought was a good idea wasn't actually so. With stuff like this going on -- and I gather this is not the first time something like it has happened -- how long do you think Linus will continue to think so? Do you think stuff like this is likely to make Linus more convinced, or less convinced, that setting himself (and all the other Linux kernel maintainers) up to have to interact with Rust people on an ongoing basis really was a good idea?
        • 2y ago
• tsimionescu 2y ago
  > Other than that, it's not a binary yes/no question; no one is really against some Rust in some parts of the kernel, but which parts? How? Where? That's the big disagreement. Linus has always been fairly hands-off on these types of disagreements. Some Kernel maintainers are absolutely against Rust anywhere in the kernel tree [0]: > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. This is from Christoph Hellwig, the DMA maintainer. And is in fact what started the thread that led to Hector Martin quitting Linux. You can see other comments by Hellwig in that thread as well, he is extremely explicit - any Rust anywhere in the kernel is a big problem, and even if he can't stop it everywhere, he will do what he can to make it harder to use Rust by blocking it from the pieces he maintains. [0] https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250131075751.GA16720@lst.de/ https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250131075751.GA1672...
  • rdtsc 2y ago
    > > The only reason Linux managed to survive so long is by not having internal boundaries, and adding another language complely breaks this. You might not like my answer, but I will do everything I can do to stop this. If a maintainer of a major subsystem has those objections, it is a good chance to try to convince them otherwise. If something is not clear, ask him to elaborate. But blackmailing with a social media campaign is not productive. Even more it’s anti-productive. This just adds to rust=drama=stayaway feeling.
    • tsimionescu 2y ago
      Oh, yes, the idea of settling anything on social media is horrible. I was just pointing out that the positions are much more binary and un-nuanced than the previous poster was claiming, even in the thread in question. I'd bet the DMA maintainer is not the only one who holds this dogmatic position, either. I'll also note that the complaints from this maintainer aren't even social though. He is very explicit in his reasoning: two+ languages bad, single language good. There's clearly little that will change this, other than working around him (though, again, I agree that social media blackmail certainly won't improve anything).
• OtomotO 2y ago
  I totally agree that even "just threatening" a social media campaign is the wrong way. We are on the same page here. I totally disagree that the other contributor is "a bit" abrasive though. It's like a religious war. Brings the worst out of otherwise smart and not asshole people.
• tw1984 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • blueflow 2y ago
    Imagine if i would take a screenshot of your post and repost it to the fediverse, with a caption like "Look at this dude, he has the same delusions as marcan". Replies go like "omg peak HN again" Would you consider that a healthy way of disagreeing? I think if i actually did that, you would probably feel like shit and be more empathetic to the harm that marcan causes.
• api 2y ago
  IMHO social media is toxic period and has no place in any professional interaction. It is inherently biased toward drama and bullshit by design, since this “maximizes engagement.” The sooner politicians are outright banned from using it for anything connected to their office the better.
• seivan 2y ago
  [dead]