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If DOGE wants to be effective it really should be going after the big ticket items like medicare or defense, some estimates have medicare at 40% fraud and waste
by siliconc0w 2y ago
If DOGE wants to be effective it really should be going after the big ticket items like medicare or defense, some estimates have medicare at 40% fraud and waste and the DoD can't even pass an audit so no one really knows what %. And that is just getting what we've paid for, not even evaluating if what we've paid for is effective.
Of course to do that would require actual coalition building, hard choices that upset voters, and congressional approval. Instead they'll going to disrupt some of the highest ROI small-money grants like food or medicine to impoverished countries because they don't have any representation.
It won't meaningfully reduce the deficit and means we we're signing up for warlords and global instability in the near future.
- indoordin0saur 2y ago[flagged]
- reaperducer 2y agothey have evidence that there is fraud rings of people outside the US posing as citizens and collecting medicare and other welfare. They'll release that evidence right about the same time they release all the "evidence" that Giuliani had about election fraud. Which they've promised to release hundreds of times before. But never have. Because it doesn't exist. Are there people outside the U.S. gaming the system? Sure. Are they "rings" or "gangs" or whatever scary name they're using this week? Based on past performance, I have zero faith we'll see any evidence.
- indoordin0saur 2y ago> Are they "rings" or "gangs" or whatever scary name they're using this week? As someone who is very into the "scambaiting" hobby of hunting down identity thieves, phone call scams, etc I would imagine they would look something like these operations you see in India or Russia where you get have an office full of professional thieves calling elderly people and scamming them out of their bank accounts, harvesting data or getting them to sign up for useless subscriptions. In 2023 alone there was $43 billion lost from identity theft. There was $200 billion in fraud from the various covid hardship assistance programs. These programs are huuuge and they have ballooned beyond what is logical in the past few years. Even democrats talk frequently about medicare fraud.
- anomaly_ 2y agoWithout commenting on this specific situation, you're very naive to think government/regulatory policies are not exploited in systematic ways by rings/gangs. Have a look at cum-ex dividend fraud in Germany, GST refunds on gold in Australia, carousel/missing trader VAT fraud in the EU, ETS carbon credit fraud in the EU, etc. All multi to tens of billion dollar frauds that were systematically exploited by rings/gangs.
- acdha 2y agoYes, there’s always fraud but 40% of nearly a trillion dollars a year is an incredibly high number - like the entire Nigerian GDP! It’s simply not possible for that to be happening with a regularly audited public service which routinely finds and successfully prosecutes much smaller fraud operations. That kind of effort would involve hundreds or thousands of people and one of them would slip up. This is a classic misdirection: fixing Medicare means dealing with the world-record inefficiency of the American healthcare system and paying a little more in taxes. They can’t say that because it’s unpopular with the rich donor class, and if they say services will be cut it’ll be very unpopular with their elderly base, so instead they point to something everyone hates and pretend that it’s big enough to solve the fundamental mismatch.
- drawkward 2y agoThen take it to fucking court. Thats what you do in a country of rule of fucking law.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoThese kinds of vague rumours ("they have evidence" is weasel words) are used to legitimize the development of invasive programs (and software) that profile people; see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... that affected tens of thousands of people (causing children to be removed from their parents, divorces, suicides, etc), mostly justified because of a small group of people defrauding the benefits scheme. The total cost of setting this right is in the billions and increasing, many times more than whatever they saved on fraud.
- indoordin0saur 2y agoThese aren't rumors. Everyone (both sides of the aisle) agrees there's massive fraud that ends up being a double-digit percentage of the money in entitlements and handouts: https://apnews.com/article/pandemic-fraud-waste-billions-small-business-labor-fb1d9a9eb24857efbe4611344311ae78 https://apnews.com/article/pandemic-fraud-waste-billions-sma...
- kelnos 2y agoIf they have evidence, show us. I'm not inclined to take anything Musk or Trump says on faith.
- nitwit005 2y agoThey haven't had time to do any form of investigation. If they have evidence, it's some existing report from the government already looking into it. But remember he's saying he wants to shut everything down. He's not planning to look into it, because he just wants to stop all payments of any kind.
- bongodongobob 2y agoI also heard tell about underpants gnomes that steal your underpants at night. A lot of people are saying it. Could be anywhere from 1 million to 10 million pairs per year, nobody knows, but we're looking into it.
- drawkward 2y agoThen they should take it to court, yknow, like one does with evidence in countries that have rule of law.
- smrtinsert 2y agoThis is an attack on the government without a legal basis. Evidence can be submitted and process can be followed, he and his team are doing neither are opening themselves up to severe legal consequences. They should research Michael Cohen and Giuliani. These people have our information, right now, in some drive in their backpack. This will be a scandal for years to come if the nation survives this.
- UltraSane 2y agoMusk is a known liar and you shouldn't believe anything he says.
- icameron 2y agoObama’s last budget was 4.2 trillion. Trumps budget two years later was 6.5 trillion. Before COVID. Maybe that’s what you’re saying though. [1](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget)
- drawkward 2y agoHey hey hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good pretext.
- indoordin0saur 2y agoIt is what I'm saying
- _yb2s 2y agoAre you kidding me? How could you simply take that at face value?
- solatic 2y agoCatching Medicare fraud likely requires a level of automatic data anomaly analysis that's simply beyond all the participants involved, both in terms of getting access to the actual databases and in getting the qualified manpower to build such a system. If the DoD's auditors can't track down all the expenses, then why would DOGE be any more successful? Running after bullshit is the low-hanging fruit.
- jacobjjacob 2y agoI think that the practical solution is to hire more auditors/investigators, and they would end up paying for themselves, but I don’t think Elon would accept a solution that requires more humans and up front cost.
- rasz 2y ago> should be going after the big ticket items like medicare or defense ok, but just after he fixed twitter bots like he promised, or ships working Autopilot.
- chrisgd 2y agoMedicare fraud perpetuated by individuals is u likely to be that high. Overbilling by hospital corporations and medical device companies could be possible. But corporations aren’t the target of DOGE.
- nxobject 2y agoNot just by individuals - by Medicare Advantage managed care organizations, too… like the biggest insurers in this country.
- joe_the_user 2y agoYes but still not the target of DOGE
- nxobject 2y agoOh yes, I agree with you - I just wanted to mention another source of unaccountable spending on Medicare.
- Taikonerd 2y agoThe 40% estimate is for fraud and waste combined. "Waste" being things like unnecessary MRIs.
- slantedview 2y agoNobody gets an MRI for fun.
- pugio 2y agoI do. I think it's interesting to have scans of parts of my body – brain, body fat/muscle distribution, etc. I also use them as reference for how my body changes over the decades. (EDIT: Nothing to do with medicare or fraudulent billing. Just pushing back on the "for fun" point. I can fall asleep in those things.)
- johnbellone 2y agoIt’s cute you think they’re trying to be “effective”.
- paxys 2y agoIt isn’t about budget but about ideology. Firing prosecutors who investigated Trump, firing FBI agents involved in Jan 6th arrests, firing employees for having pronouns in email signatures, going after agencies that spend <.1% of the federal budget just because they have “diversity” or “aid” in the name, using emergency executive power over vague threats like “drugs”. This is a government takeover and purge of anyone who can be considered disloyal to the administration. This may be a surprise to people who have only ever lived under functional first-world governments and the rule of law, but the rest of the world recognizes it as a story that has played out many times before.
- xvector 2y agoWill you eat your words and admit you are wrong if Musk frees up a significant fraction of the budget?
- nxobject 2y agoHow much is “significant”?
- computerthings 2y agoWhat words? That this playbook of making promises to then create another crisis to change the subject is well known? That is true and will remain true. Will you read up on the 20th century so you're on the same page as the comment you're replying to? But how would the words "it's not about the budget, but ideology" but refuted by budget cuts, anyway? I can give you candy in my van, and the candy can be real, but that still doesn't make it about the candy. And freeing up a significant fraction of the budget is hardly saying anything. You can save money by throwing people on the streets and letting them starve. You can make money by letting drug dealers go free and making them give the government a cut of the profits. Maybe not enough to offset the tax cuts to the super rich, or the costs incurred by just setting everything on fire to consolidate wealth for a few sociopaths, but probably "significant". So? That's supposed to be an argument for waving firing prosecutors for political reasons through?
- nickthegreek 2y ago
- test6554 2y agoEven if they somehow managed to clear $250 bn in wasteful federal expenses, people would still be upset and start demanding how it should be spent.
- crooked-v 2y agoThey don't want to be effective. They want to punish and humiliate anyone they don't like, and lie about it because claiming "efficiency" is an easy way to get overly credulous American moderates to look the other way.
- bamboozled 2y agoMusk also thinks it's funny we all have to say "DOGE" because he is a petty moron with the sense of humor of a spoiled 13 year old gamer from the year 2000.
- BenFranklin100 2y agoYou don’t really need to get moderates to look the other way when you have crazed MAGA going at this gung-ho.
- speakfreely 2y agoAs someone who witnessed the absurd corruption of the weird fiefdoms carved out by the horrifically inefficient career staff at the Department of State and USAID, I have to say that all this really couldn't happen to a better set of people.
- kyrra 2y agoTrump and almost all of Congress doesn't want to touch the entitlements. Bush Jr tried to reform social security and got trounced for it. Since then no one seriously tries to change it because the other side will beat you over the head with it, even if they are half truths. Voters like to vote themselves "free" things, even if it might destroy the economy.
- whimsicalism 2y agoi will vote for whichever party reforms entitlements and raises taxes, especially less distortionary taxes like on inheritance, property, and consumption.
- UltraSane 2y agothe estate tax should be 100% of anything over $20 million. If property taxes on homes and land are legal then they should also apply to anyone who ones more than $20 million in shares of public companies.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agowho manages businesses that are owned by sole owners that pass away? Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ? What do you think happens with the customer base, during that transition, exactly ? What happens to the jobs lost? If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?
- UltraSane 2y ago"Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ? " Employees. "who manages businesses that are owned by sole owners that pass away?" Whoever they hire. "If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?" $20 million is plenty. Taxing someone AFTER they die is the fairest possible time to do so. Insisting you should have control of your assets even after you are dead is pretty absurd when you really think about it. EDIT: Honestly the minimum could be $100 million or even $1 billion. The goal is to prevent a permanent class of overlords from growing.
- crabmusket 2y agoGreat recent article which explores how to actually cut $2T of federal expenses (though if course a tally doing so very quickly would cause a recession): https://prospect.org/economy/2025-01-27-we-found-the-2-trillion-elon-musk-doge/ https://prospect.org/economy/2025-01-27-we-found-the-2-trill... Most of what's been discussed so far is culture war dog whistling which won't save any money- or just cutting entitlements and hang the consequences.
- Terr_ 2y agoPlus the whole issue of "the executive branch can't unilaterally change or suspend laws." Well, not without fascist criminality anyway.
- crabmusket 2y agoHoly typos, batman. *Though of course actually doing so very quickly would cause a recession
- ctrlp 2y agoHave to take out the enemy machine gun nests first before you take the citadel. Goodbye USAID/CIA.
- rsoto2 2y agoLOL the trump admin just ressuplied Israel to the tune of a billion to keep murdering children defense budget is not getting cut
- liontwist 2y agoIt’s week 2. I think they will have time to go after those big orgs. But also you’re missing an important theme of the administration. Foreign aid doesn’t go to Americans. Social security and Medicare do. Trump didn’t run a tea party platform.
- beej71 2y agoThey did save that billion dollars... Enough to power the federal government for a little over an hour.
- jimkleiber 2y agoYou mean go after military contractors like SpaceX and Palantir? That would require they actually want to reduce the deficit, not just kill departments that they find evil because of some projected vengeance.
- turtlesdown11 2y ago> some estimates have medicare at 40% fraud and waste same tired old lies, medicare is more efficient than private insurance