15 ms·

Bacteria (and their metabolites) and depression

442 points by Luc 2y ago

_tariky 2y ago
https://archive.is/QA7qZ https://archive.is/QA7qZ
daoboy 2y ago
So is there a straightforward solution to keeping this out of our system and we just...don't? "Where is this diethanolamine coming from? Well, it's not known to be a natural part of either human or bacterial biochemistry. Instead, it is an industrial contaminant, sadly, whose ability to be incorporated (at low levels) into animal and human lipids through the apparently-not-so-picky enzyme cardiolipin synthase has been confirmed for decades now."
- bregma 2y ago
  Well, most shampoos have a warning label about external use only so there is at least some effort to keep it out of a person's system.
  - krageon 2y ago
    It's absorbed through the skin, so that doesn't actually solve the issue of having it in your body.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - bell-cot 2y ago
      The dose makes the poison. And the phrase "absorbed through the skin" admits a very wide range of absorption rates.
      - londons_explore 2y ago
        Interestingly there are some materials the absorb through the skin far faster than you'd expect. ie. they soak in just like a tissue soaks up water.
        sethammons 2y ago
        hydrofluoric acid. Get some on your skin, and you don't even feel a burn. But within minutes or hours, you may have demineralized your bones, causing them to go beyond brittle
        gilleain 2y ago
        Dimethylmercury, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury
        bell-cot 2y ago
        True...but Hg(CH3)2 is so much of a "MSDS from the 11th circle of hell" corner case that only expendables in heavily armored moon suits should ever go near the stuff.
        MaKey 2y ago
        Yet a German synthesized it in his basement and used it to poison a colleague: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/07/german-who-poisoned-co-workers-sandwiches-receives-life-sentence https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/07/german-who-poi... A crime as heinous as the substance that was used. It's a miracle that he didn't kill himself or one of his family members with it.
      - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
        The paper seems to conclude that we do not know the safe dose. And we are not talking death, but suffering. So taken together, there would seem to be good reason to continue to continue to unravel the long-hypothesized inflammation/depression connection, and particularly in regards to possible exacerbating factors such as higher levels of M. morganii infection or even higher environmental exposure to diethanolamine. We seem to have a lot to learn here!
    - sethammons 2y ago
      the people down voting the idea of skin absorption as a meaningful vector for getting things into your body remind me of the people a hundred years ago who thought animals cannot feel anything. I'm wondering if the plastics in modern clothing are similarly exposing our systems to microplastics -- maybe not as bad as cooking in plastic, but a constant light abrasion all day, every day, for your whole life. Our biologies didn't evolve with these synthetics. Not a big stretch to think our biologies won't handle them well.
      - marcosdumay 2y ago
        Differently from simple chemical substances, microplastics absorption through the skin is kind of an extraordinary claim. Until we get any evidence of it, I'd say the answer is no, it doesn't.
      - jajko 2y ago
        I'd say more nano-plastics. And pathway is more oral ingestion or breathing them in when they get loose from clothing. For sure, form time to time we breathe in one of those super thin 'hair'. Home dust is visibly composed out of those too and it takes just a bit of sunlight to see them dance mid air in non-small numbers. It would be impossible to not breathe them in, or swallow some on food.
      - weberer 2y ago
        >I'm wondering if the plastics in modern clothing are similarly exposing our systems to microplastics I bet we inhale a lot of it via lint.
      - zorrolovsky 2y ago
        https://ceh.org/latest/news-coverage/do-your-workout-clothes-contain-endocrine-disrupting-microplastics/ https://ceh.org/latest/news-coverage/do-your-workout-clothes... Looks like plastics can enter the body through sweat glands. I threw away all my polyester workout clothing (which I loved to use) because of this concern. Call me paranoid but I'm going 100% cotton and linen. Not keen on getting my hormones disrupted by inhaling and absorbing microplastics!
- FollowingTheDao 2y ago
  Welcome to my hell of understanding. All these molecules were "deemed as safe" not because me knew everything about them but because we did not care. This surfactant, diethanolamine, may also prevent the healthy function of lipids in the mitochondrial membrane, namely Omega 3. When you mess with the mitochondrial membrane you start to have issues with oxidative stress and a whole range of metabolic disorders. For example: Cardiolipin synthase deficiency is a condition that results in abnormal mitochondrial function and morphology. It can be caused by mutations in the cardiolipin synthase (CLS) gene. Symptoms impaired viability, decreased mitochondrial membrane potential, and defective oxidative phosphorylation. What you can do: Drink reverse osmosis or deionized water and eat as whole and fresh food as you can. Wash your dishes by hand and rinse them very very well using the most natural detergent you have. Here is a way to find some DEA free products: https://www.skinsafeproducts.com/search/products?products_by_ingredient=1830&includes_ingredient=false https://www.skinsafeproducts.com/search/products?products_by...
  - dgacmu 2y ago
    To nitpick slightly, DEA is not a lipid, it's an organic amine. It can be inadvertently incorporated into a lipid instead of a glycerol, creating a ... weird lipid.
  - hinkley 2y ago
    Isn’t there also something about cancer cells being more likely due to metabolic defects in the cells?
    - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
      Yeah, any change in oxidative balance could promote cancer. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7392807/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7392807/
jstanley 2y ago
> it was one of the strongest causal signals in the team's GWAS analysis (2,801 microbial taxa and 7,967,866 human genetic variants from 5,959 individuals), and it was the only one that validated (M. morganii levels versus major depression) when they went back and checked multi-year health records taken after the original microbiota samples. I don't know what any of this means, but it sounds very much like https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/
- adrianN 2y ago
  They are aware of this which is why they add that those strange lipids have independently been associated with depression.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    I put a tally mark under "more bacteria than human" It used to be called the gut feeling column, but once the Alzheimer's links were confirmed more strongly i felt it needed to be addressed with more gravitas. I will read the papers tomorrow but this should be easy to test, I think? Immediately cease use of any product that contains dea or analogs. And since it's lipidinous, maintain weight? Ia this heretical?
- i_love_limes 2y ago
  So, it is like that, but it's also not. A couple decades ago, with the advent of GWASes, because of all the multiple testing that was going on, there was an agreed new p-value threshold p < 5e-8. This was to account for multiple testing going on (how that number came to be requires more explanation of LD + other things). That is the minimum threshold. This study found that peak was at p < 1e-37 or so. But that is where the biological analysis begins. Unlike social scientists, we don't stop with the statistical correlation, we then go on to look at what we know about that gene, the type of mutation, if it's a loss or gain of function, what role that gene has in various tissues, etc. And mendelian randomization is another way to unpick the causal direction of effect. Not to say this is the truth or causal, but it's a lot closer to causal than what you are implying.
davedx 2y ago
Diethanolamine: General description. Diethanolamine (DEA) is an amino alcohol commonly used in the preparation of soaps and surfactants, agricultural chemicals and in textile processing. It is used as an absorbent for capturing CO2. Its toxic and carcinogenic effect has been studied. Diethanolamine is widely used in the preparation of diethanolamides and diethanolamine salts of long-chain fatty acids that are formulated into soaps and surfactants used in liquid laundry and dishwashing detergents, cosmetics, shampoos and hair conditioners.
- tomw1808 2y ago
  I came here wondering if I am the only one not knowing what Diethalothingythings are. Thanks.
- 0xEF 2y ago
  I think it's important to clarify that DEA is used in _industrialized_ processes for soap and detergents. As a person who makes their own at home, I can tell you that no home recipe I've ever seen has introduced DEA into the process unless I'm missing something. I can't speak for shampoo, since I've never tried to make it (I purchase shampoo bars from another home soap-maker). Please feel free to correct me, since I'd love to be sure. I worry about this a lot. I also make my own bread for the same reasons; I find that industrialization of consumables is introducing a ton of contaminants into our bodies, the effects of which we are not fully cognizant of. Where possible, I avoid participating in that game because of how I view the trade-off; it does not make sense to me to save time by buying the products instead of making them at the risk of shortening my lifespan. Again, I'm open to different thinking on this. In recent years, I have just felt a powerful draw to get back to basics and understand what I am consuming in a responsible way.
  - tomw1808 2y ago
    Do you know if the regulations regarding contaminants in both soaps, as well as consumables, is more stringent in the EU (beyond the "Fanta-to-Fanta" comparison)? In other words, would you feel more comfortable eat something basic like bread and other consumables from supermarkets in the European Union vs the US, or not? Can you eventually share a few thoughts on this?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
zabzonk 2y ago
Well, as a pathogen (god knows what is going on in our guts, or our skin, come to that) it is rare, as article says. I worked in an NHS microbiology lab in the 70s and never came across one - probably wouldn't have known how to do so. One of our consultants might (he was obsessed with anaerobes) might have, but there are so many that might (or not) be associated with wounds that they are very hard to identify.
- FollowingTheDao 2y ago
  They are talking about in in the gut, not on wounds. Morganella morganii has a commensal(maybe) relationship within the intestinal tracts of humans. It may be more pathogenic than we thought if it causes increases in IL6.
  - zabzonk 2y ago
    almost all bacteria and viruses (and most other things) have a commensal relationship with us, otherwise we would would have all be gone into grey goo. i wouldn't wory about our gut fauna.
    - atombender 2y ago
      They're commensal until they're not. About half the world's population have H. pylori living in their stomach, and most people are fine, but in many people it causes gastric ulcers.
Dowwie 2y ago
to access the report, click "accepted version" in the left-hand margin https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/9a051aa7-0fa4-46a5-8880-936e56a4cfee https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/9a051aa7-0fa4-46a5-88... I ran the study through NotebookLLM and asked for some applied insights. Prompt 1: based on the contents of the paper and logical deduction, what steps can someone take to apply the lessons learned from this study? Response 1: [a little too scientific...] Prompt 2: explain this in more common terms and concepts Response 2: Okay, here's an explanation of the study's findings in simpler terms: This research paper explores how our genes and diet affect the community of microbes living in our gut, and how these interactions can impact our health. It's like looking at the complex ecosystem inside us and trying to understand how different factors influence its balance. The study used a large group of people and analyzed their genes, gut microbes, diets, and health records to find these connections. Here's a breakdown of what it means and how you can think about applying it to your own life: * *Your genes play a role in your gut:* Just like you inherit traits like eye color from your parents, you also inherit tendencies that affect the types of microbes that thrive in your gut. The study found many specific genes that are associated with the presence of different bacteria. * *Lactose Tolerance and Gut Bacteria:* * One key gene is called *LCT*, which determines if you can digest milk sugar (lactose) as an adult. If you're lactose intolerant (meaning your body struggles to digest lactose), and you still eat dairy, you might see more of a specific type of bacteria called Bifidobacterium in your gut. This is because when you are lactose intolerant the undigested lactose makes it to your colon where it becomes food for your gut bacteria, which can lead to increased Bifidobacterium growth. * However, just because you have more Bifidobacterium doesn't necessarily mean it's beneficial, it could mean that your body isn't digesting lactose properly. * If you are able to digest lactose, eating dairy will not affect the amount of Bifidobacterium in your gut. * The study also noted that *other types of bacteria* are affected by the LCT gene, suggesting that the impact of this gene on your gut is complex and depends on your dairy intake. * *Blood Type and Gut Bacteria*: Your ABO blood type, like A, B, AB, or O, also affects your gut microbes, along with your secretor status, which indicates if you secrete blood antigens in your gut mucosa. * The study suggests that people who secrete blood antigens in their gut tend to have higher levels of the bacteria Faecalicatena lactaris. * This bacteria also appears to be a very efficient metabolizer of these blood antigens. * This means that people with different blood types may have slightly different gut microbiomes and might need to take that into account when they make diet or lifestyle choices. * *Fiber and Gut Bacteria:* Eating a lot of fiber is generally good for your gut. However, the study found that the bacteria Faecalicatena lactaris does not easily switch to digesting fiber. This means that even if you eat a lot of fiber, this bacteria might still prefer to feed on other things, such as secreted blood antigens. Other mucin-degrading bacteria are more likely to switch to fiber when it is available. * *Gut Microbes and Mental Health*: * The study suggests that there may be a connection between a specific gut microbe called Morganella and depression. This highlights the *gut-brain connection*, meaning that what happens in your gut can affect your brain and your mental health. * The study also suggests that the MED13L gene is associated with Enterococcus faecalis, which may be linked to a higher risk of colorectal cancer. * *What You Can Do:* * *Consider your genetics:* You can get genetic testing to see if you have some of the gene variations discussed in the study, like the one for lactose intolerance. This will help you understand how your body works and help you make dietary choices. * *Pay attention to your diet:* What you eat strongly affects your gut microbes. If you're lactose intolerant, you may want to consider whether dairy is good for you. You might also want to consider if you should eat more fiber, and what type of fiber would best support a healthy gut. * *Be mindful of the gut-brain connection:* Keep your gut healthy as it might have an impact on your mental well-being. * *Talk to a professional:* The study is complex, so it's best to discuss it with a doctor or a registered dietitian before making big changes to your diet or lifestyle. * *Remember that research is ongoing:* This study provides valuable information, but the authors recommend further research into several of these connections. In short, this study underscores the idea that our gut is a complex ecosystem that is influenced by our genes, our diet, our blood type and a host of other factors. By understanding these interactions, we can take better care of our overall health.
alecst 2y ago
I can’t go into too much detail here, but I interrupted a severe depression by fasting for two straight weeks. It’s hard to say why it worked — my friends assume that the microbiome is implicated because of the dietary change. Plausible, but hardly a proof. This gives me at least one direction to look in.
- angst_ridden 2y ago
  There is also a known phenomenon of "starvation euphoria." I don't know at what point of caloric deficit that kicks in, but it probably varies dramatically.
- mateus1 2y ago
  Interesting, I had a bout of depression that I believe started when I did a monthlong low carb low calorie diet (with doctors and nutritionist). Gut health is a huge factor.
  - goda90 2y ago
    Low carb and low calorie for a month sounds rough in general. Maybe the depression could be attributed to exhaustion and a suppressed metabolism as well.
    - stewarts 2y ago
      Very individualized. I have drastically better gut health, skin health, energy when on a low carb diet for an extended duration. Maintaining that diet for an extended duration, however, is always the challenge when others in the household do not follow it. Logically, I should stop being a baby and just power on with it. Or at least determine what in my "normal" western diet negatively impacts gut health/skin health and overall energy.
- digbybk 2y ago
  As an alternate theory, I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended. The theory is that it’s not good for us emotionally to be comfortable continuously. Maybe fasting is an example of that?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Arrekin 2y ago
Keto is the only thing that fixes my depression-like state. I discovered it doing short-term fasts and then learned about Keto. I tested it multiple times. Once I get off Keto I feel much worse within 2 weeks and after around 1 month I am at the total bottom again. Then go back to Keto, 2-3 days of suffering Keto Flu and I'm happy to live again.
- dombesz 2y ago
  You probably have gut dysbiosis causing inflamation of your gut and inflamation leads to depression like symptoms. This doesn’t mean you have to eat keto all the time, but rather that you should take probiotics to restore your gut flora. This way, you can continue eating a balanced diet without allowing that specific bacteria to become overpopulated. The best for me was using Lactobacyllus subtilis HU-58 alongside low-fodmap diet. The low fodmap diet is a shorter period of 1 month, then it needs to continue with the RENEW diet for 3-6months to 1 year. This whole period needs to be supplimented with hu58.
  - Arrekin 2y ago
    Thank you I'll check that out. Tho, for me, it most likely began as a post-flu complication, so I don't have much hopes.
  - machiaweliczny 2y ago
    I had some gut bacteria issues and I think I was helped recently by using oregano oil and/or allicine (extract from garlic). Used both for a week, before had 2x antibiotics for suspected SIBO. I also used VivoMaxx 450 probiotics and sodium butyrate for 3 days so maybe it was it. All of these combined are cheaper than single curation with antibiotics so worth giving a shot in case of issues.
  - baxtr 2y ago
    Thanks. Very interesting. Do you know why HU 58 is so special?
- hellectronic 2y ago
  Checkout the book Brain Energy by Christopher Palmer
maxfurman 2y ago
So if, for the sake of argument, the findings here are correct and causal and should be acted upon, what exactly is one supposed to do about it? We've got the technology to detect gut bacteria but we don't seem to have good targeted ways to affect it.
- revx 2y ago
  Cut things that contain diethanolamine from your home/diet/life?
- troyvit 2y ago
  An interesting way to affect gut bacteria is to get a fecal transplant. It doesn't look fun, and I don't know how well it works, but I bet that's the direction to go. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t...
  - Vampiero 2y ago
    No wonder dogs like to eat shit off the ground
- calibas 2y ago
  > We've got the technology to detect gut bacteria but we don't seem to have good targeted ways to affect it. Healthy diet, fasting, probiotics, reducing stress, among other methods.
kvgr 2y ago
This explains why my moods gets better for couple of weeks, hwne i take some antibiotics.
- kylehotchkiss 2y ago
  Causation != correlation. Not all bad moods are caused by bacteria and you’re not factoring in the fact you were sick and got well as a potential mood boosting factor
  - hollerith 2y ago
    I'm inclined to believe that GP is rational enough to be able to notice if there were symptoms other than low mood that were so severe and troublesome that GP reacted with chronically-low mood. And I'm inclined to believe that GP is competent enough at writing comments that if there were such non-mood symptoms, GP would've mentioned them. (I don't know anything personally about GP: I'm going on the average rationality level of the writers of HN comments that report on the writer's own health.)
Jun8 2y ago
This is probably a wild (~stupid) idea but can we develop drugs to elite particular bacteria, e.g. just kill Morganella morganii, akin to Ehrlich's magic bullet? Current approaches, I think, use antibiotics that kill a wide range of bacteria, the good with the bad. How would such a thing work? Could there be enzymes specific to one species (or, at least, a family)?
- jagraff 2y ago
  I don't know about enzymes, but bacteriophages (viruses that target bacteria) are species specific, and have been used successfully as antibacterial treatments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy
1970-01-01 2y ago
Are there studies linking common antibiotics to depression?
TechDebtDevin 2y ago
Find a vegan / natural soap store in your city. Off the Botel in Denver is great, https://offthebottlerefills.com/ https://offthebottlerefills.com/ Ive switched entirely to Bathing Culture myself, an all natural soap brand. https://bathingculture.com/ https://bathingculture.com/
- hinkley 2y ago
  Alternatively, biodegradable soaps deemed safe for camping may be another good choice. See also Dr Bronner’s, Method, Pré de Provence bar soap.
talkingtab 2y ago
This is a "you don't know what you don't know" thing. This article lays out a path way for a link between a chemical that is common in our lives and depression. That pathway is a common gut bacteria. The article ends with this: "So taken together, there would seem to be good reason to continue to unravel the long-hypothesized inflammation/depression connection, and particularly in regards to possible exacerbating factors such as higher levels of M. morganii infection or even higher environmental exposure to diethanolamine. We seem to have a lot to learn here!" diethanolamine is commonly used in liquid laundry and dish washing detergents, cosmetics, shampoos and hair conditioners. So you really don't know if your hair conditioner, shampoo or dish washing detergent is causing you inflammation & depression. Hmmm. We, as in the institutions that supposedly protect consumers, work on the assumption that anything can be used and added until it is proven not safe. For example, thalidomide. We did not know it would cause deformed babies, so it was assumed to be safe. Okay, so will some corporation knowingly use something that is hazardous, just to make more money. Well we have the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma. Or you can go watch "Erin Brokovitch". And you might want to watch Matix again just for fun.
- scoofy 2y ago
  I mean this is why Nassim Taleb got extremely controversial with his via negativa approach during his Antifragile and Skin in the Game period (I am a huge fan of his writing). >Drink no liquid that isn’t at least a thousand years old (wine, water, coffee). Eat nothing invented or re-engineered by humans. The argument is straightforward, that human beings are a wildly complex multi-variate system and that throwing wrenches into a complex multi-variate system is generally a horrible idea (this heuristic is inverted and encouraged when the that system is breaking down). Is there a bit of a naturalistic fallacy here? I think sort of, but not significant one. The idea that we could screw up our bodies is obviously there. The flip side of this coin is that I see something as trivial as depression and/or most other non-fatal ailments as completely independent of the evolutionary process, such that experimenting on ourselves to improve our life (again, quality of life over time should not be directly related to probability of genetic reproduction success, as is made obvious from the gay uncle hypothesis). The implications of this extend to where you live, so a bunch of genetically German hippies living in California, pretending to be one with nature, really are being dishonest about the health benefits they pretend to have, when the argument pretty much insists that the region of evolutionary development occurs will be crucial to the benefits of that evolution. Taleb himself lives in NYC, not his genetic homeland of Lebanon. We really just need to be more honest about how little we know about health... especially health outside of the highly reproductive window (13-45).
Theizestooke 2y ago
That's interesting. I always get a bout of depression when the weather changes drastically (increase in temp, drop in pressure). I noticed that when I'm able to poop again, afterwards it starts to get better. Maybe I need to take stuff to speed up digestion?
duncancarroll 2y ago
Related to this, it's been shown that Long Covid sufferers have low levels of circulating serotonin due to viral inflammation downregulating the gut intake of tryptophan (serotonin's precursor) and is also (I believe) correlated with IL-6 similar to the article. [1] Tryptophan is the only way your body can produce serotonin, and if you're not getting serotonin that is a problem and can cause depression, fatigue, irritability, brain fog, brain zaps, etc. The cool thing is there's a workaround: The same paper also found that if you supplement with Hydrolyzed protein (basically pre-digested protein, you can get it off Amazon) the tryptophan variant therein uses a different cellular uptake pathway which is not downregulated. This type of tryptophan is not generally found in food, so it's not like you could just eat a bunch of turkey instead. I tried it and I'll be damned, it worked. This is not medical advice btw, just sharing what worked for me. You have to take it very very slowly because your brain, having been serotonin-starved for years, will have a very, VERY low tolerance, so even though your body rate-limits serotonin production, even the "normal" amount is a big disruption and you can still induce Serotonin Syndrome if you're not careful. I take no more than about a 1/4 serving every other day. Also, goes without saying but DO NOT combine with SSRIs / MAOIs, or anything else that modulates serotonin. [1] https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01034-6 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01034-6
- cpncrunch 2y ago
  It's never a good idea to make definitive statements like this from a single unreplicated study, especially when it has serious methodological problems. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/JIR.S456000 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/JIR.S456000
  - duncancarroll 2y ago
    I realize you're probably just trying to help, but: A) I tested this on myself with results which are consistent with theirs and which would be unexpected if their conclusions were off-base, which is why I'm comfortable making these statements. B) There is no treatment for Long Covid and people have been suffering for years without any recourse. If my comment helps one person searching the Internet then I don't think it's a bad idea. (Edited to be less snarky)

442 points by Luc 2y ago

https://archive.is/QA7qZ https://archive.is/QA7qZ

So is there a straightforward solution to keeping this out of our system and we just...don't? "Where is this diethanolamine coming from? Well, it's not known to be a natural part of either human or bacterial biochemistry. Instead, it is an industrial contaminant, sadly, whose ability to be incorporated (at low levels) into animal and human lipids through the apparently-not-so-picky enzyme cardiolipin synthase has been confirmed for decades now."

bregma 2y ago
Well, most shampoos have a warning label about external use only so there is at least some effort to keep it out of a person's system.
- krageon 2y ago
  It's absorbed through the skin, so that doesn't actually solve the issue of having it in your body.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - bell-cot 2y ago
    The dose makes the poison. And the phrase "absorbed through the skin" admits a very wide range of absorption rates.
    - londons_explore 2y ago
      Interestingly there are some materials the absorb through the skin far faster than you'd expect. ie. they soak in just like a tissue soaks up water.
      - sethammons 2y ago
        hydrofluoric acid. Get some on your skin, and you don't even feel a burn. But within minutes or hours, you may have demineralized your bones, causing them to go beyond brittle
      - gilleain 2y ago
        Dimethylmercury, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury
        bell-cot 2y ago
        True...but Hg(CH3)2 is so much of a "MSDS from the 11th circle of hell" corner case that only expendables in heavily armored moon suits should ever go near the stuff.
        MaKey 2y ago
        Yet a German synthesized it in his basement and used it to poison a colleague: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/07/german-who-poisoned-co-workers-sandwiches-receives-life-sentence https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/07/german-who-poi... A crime as heinous as the substance that was used. It's a miracle that he didn't kill himself or one of his family members with it.
    - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
      The paper seems to conclude that we do not know the safe dose. And we are not talking death, but suffering. So taken together, there would seem to be good reason to continue to continue to unravel the long-hypothesized inflammation/depression connection, and particularly in regards to possible exacerbating factors such as higher levels of M. morganii infection or even higher environmental exposure to diethanolamine. We seem to have a lot to learn here!
  - sethammons 2y ago
    the people down voting the idea of skin absorption as a meaningful vector for getting things into your body remind me of the people a hundred years ago who thought animals cannot feel anything. I'm wondering if the plastics in modern clothing are similarly exposing our systems to microplastics -- maybe not as bad as cooking in plastic, but a constant light abrasion all day, every day, for your whole life. Our biologies didn't evolve with these synthetics. Not a big stretch to think our biologies won't handle them well.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      Differently from simple chemical substances, microplastics absorption through the skin is kind of an extraordinary claim. Until we get any evidence of it, I'd say the answer is no, it doesn't.
    - jajko 2y ago
      I'd say more nano-plastics. And pathway is more oral ingestion or breathing them in when they get loose from clothing. For sure, form time to time we breathe in one of those super thin 'hair'. Home dust is visibly composed out of those too and it takes just a bit of sunlight to see them dance mid air in non-small numbers. It would be impossible to not breathe them in, or swallow some on food.
    - weberer 2y ago
      >I'm wondering if the plastics in modern clothing are similarly exposing our systems to microplastics I bet we inhale a lot of it via lint.
    - zorrolovsky 2y ago
      https://ceh.org/latest/news-coverage/do-your-workout-clothes-contain-endocrine-disrupting-microplastics/ https://ceh.org/latest/news-coverage/do-your-workout-clothes... Looks like plastics can enter the body through sweat glands. I threw away all my polyester workout clothing (which I loved to use) because of this concern. Call me paranoid but I'm going 100% cotton and linen. Not keen on getting my hormones disrupted by inhaling and absorbing microplastics!
FollowingTheDao 2y ago
Welcome to my hell of understanding. All these molecules were "deemed as safe" not because me knew everything about them but because we did not care. This surfactant, diethanolamine, may also prevent the healthy function of lipids in the mitochondrial membrane, namely Omega 3. When you mess with the mitochondrial membrane you start to have issues with oxidative stress and a whole range of metabolic disorders. For example: Cardiolipin synthase deficiency is a condition that results in abnormal mitochondrial function and morphology. It can be caused by mutations in the cardiolipin synthase (CLS) gene. Symptoms impaired viability, decreased mitochondrial membrane potential, and defective oxidative phosphorylation. What you can do: Drink reverse osmosis or deionized water and eat as whole and fresh food as you can. Wash your dishes by hand and rinse them very very well using the most natural detergent you have. Here is a way to find some DEA free products: https://www.skinsafeproducts.com/search/products?products_by_ingredient=1830&includes_ingredient=false https://www.skinsafeproducts.com/search/products?products_by...
- dgacmu 2y ago
  To nitpick slightly, DEA is not a lipid, it's an organic amine. It can be inadvertently incorporated into a lipid instead of a glycerol, creating a ... weird lipid.
- hinkley 2y ago
  Isn’t there also something about cancer cells being more likely due to metabolic defects in the cells?
  - FollowingTheDao 2y ago
    Yeah, any change in oxidative balance could promote cancer. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7392807/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7392807/

jstanley 2y ago

> it was one of the strongest causal signals in the team's GWAS analysis (2,801 microbial taxa and 7,967,866 human genetic variants from 5,959 individuals), and it was the only one that validated (M. morganii levels versus major depression) when they went back and checked multi-year health records taken after the original microbiota samples. I don't know what any of this means, but it sounds very much like https://xkcd.com/882/ https://xkcd.com/882/

adrianN 2y ago
They are aware of this which is why they add that those strange lipids have independently been associated with depression.
- genewitch 2y ago
  I put a tally mark under "more bacteria than human" It used to be called the gut feeling column, but once the Alzheimer's links were confirmed more strongly i felt it needed to be addressed with more gravitas. I will read the papers tomorrow but this should be easy to test, I think? Immediately cease use of any product that contains dea or analogs. And since it's lipidinous, maintain weight? Ia this heretical?
i_love_limes 2y ago
So, it is like that, but it's also not. A couple decades ago, with the advent of GWASes, because of all the multiple testing that was going on, there was an agreed new p-value threshold p < 5e-8. This was to account for multiple testing going on (how that number came to be requires more explanation of LD + other things). That is the minimum threshold. This study found that peak was at p < 1e-37 or so. But that is where the biological analysis begins. Unlike social scientists, we don't stop with the statistical correlation, we then go on to look at what we know about that gene, the type of mutation, if it's a loss or gain of function, what role that gene has in various tissues, etc. And mendelian randomization is another way to unpick the causal direction of effect. Not to say this is the truth or causal, but it's a lot closer to causal than what you are implying.

davedx 2y ago

Diethanolamine: General description. Diethanolamine (DEA) is an amino alcohol commonly used in the preparation of soaps and surfactants, agricultural chemicals and in textile processing. It is used as an absorbent for capturing CO2. Its toxic and carcinogenic effect has been studied. Diethanolamine is widely used in the preparation of diethanolamides and diethanolamine salts of long-chain fatty acids that are formulated into soaps and surfactants used in liquid laundry and dishwashing detergents, cosmetics, shampoos and hair conditioners.

tomw1808 2y ago
I came here wondering if I am the only one not knowing what Diethalothingythings are. Thanks.
0xEF 2y ago
I think it's important to clarify that DEA is used in _industrialized_ processes for soap and detergents. As a person who makes their own at home, I can tell you that no home recipe I've ever seen has introduced DEA into the process unless I'm missing something. I can't speak for shampoo, since I've never tried to make it (I purchase shampoo bars from another home soap-maker). Please feel free to correct me, since I'd love to be sure. I worry about this a lot. I also make my own bread for the same reasons; I find that industrialization of consumables is introducing a ton of contaminants into our bodies, the effects of which we are not fully cognizant of. Where possible, I avoid participating in that game because of how I view the trade-off; it does not make sense to me to save time by buying the products instead of making them at the risk of shortening my lifespan. Again, I'm open to different thinking on this. In recent years, I have just felt a powerful draw to get back to basics and understand what I am consuming in a responsible way.
- tomw1808 2y ago
  Do you know if the regulations regarding contaminants in both soaps, as well as consumables, is more stringent in the EU (beyond the "Fanta-to-Fanta" comparison)? In other words, would you feel more comfortable eat something basic like bread and other consumables from supermarkets in the European Union vs the US, or not? Can you eventually share a few thoughts on this?

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zabzonk 2y ago

Well, as a pathogen (god knows what is going on in our guts, or our skin, come to that) it is rare, as article says. I worked in an NHS microbiology lab in the 70s and never came across one - probably wouldn't have known how to do so. One of our consultants might (he was obsessed with anaerobes) might have, but there are so many that might (or not) be associated with wounds that they are very hard to identify.

FollowingTheDao 2y ago
They are talking about in in the gut, not on wounds. Morganella morganii has a commensal(maybe) relationship within the intestinal tracts of humans. It may be more pathogenic than we thought if it causes increases in IL6.
- zabzonk 2y ago
  almost all bacteria and viruses (and most other things) have a commensal relationship with us, otherwise we would would have all be gone into grey goo. i wouldn't wory about our gut fauna.
  - atombender 2y ago
    They're commensal until they're not. About half the world's population have H. pylori living in their stomach, and most people are fine, but in many people it causes gastric ulcers.

Dowwie 2y ago

to access the report, click "accepted version" in the left-hand margin https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/9a051aa7-0fa4-46a5-8880-936e56a4cfee https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/items/9a051aa7-0fa4-46a5-88... I ran the study through NotebookLLM and asked for some applied insights. Prompt 1: based on the contents of the paper and logical deduction, what steps can someone take to apply the lessons learned from this study? Response 1: [a little too scientific...] Prompt 2: explain this in more common terms and concepts Response 2: Okay, here's an explanation of the study's findings in simpler terms: This research paper explores how our genes and diet affect the community of microbes living in our gut, and how these interactions can impact our health. It's like looking at the complex ecosystem inside us and trying to understand how different factors influence its balance. The study used a large group of people and analyzed their genes, gut microbes, diets, and health records to find these connections. Here's a breakdown of what it means and how you can think about applying it to your own life: * *Your genes play a role in your gut:* Just like you inherit traits like eye color from your parents, you also inherit tendencies that affect the types of microbes that thrive in your gut. The study found many specific genes that are associated with the presence of different bacteria. * *Lactose Tolerance and Gut Bacteria:* * One key gene is called *LCT*, which determines if you can digest milk sugar (lactose) as an adult. If you're lactose intolerant (meaning your body struggles to digest lactose), and you still eat dairy, you might see more of a specific type of bacteria called Bifidobacterium in your gut. This is because when you are lactose intolerant the undigested lactose makes it to your colon where it becomes food for your gut bacteria, which can lead to increased Bifidobacterium growth. * However, just because you have more Bifidobacterium doesn't necessarily mean it's beneficial, it could mean that your body isn't digesting lactose properly. * If you are able to digest lactose, eating dairy will not affect the amount of Bifidobacterium in your gut. * The study also noted that *other types of bacteria* are affected by the LCT gene, suggesting that the impact of this gene on your gut is complex and depends on your dairy intake. * *Blood Type and Gut Bacteria*: Your ABO blood type, like A, B, AB, or O, also affects your gut microbes, along with your secretor status, which indicates if you secrete blood antigens in your gut mucosa. * The study suggests that people who secrete blood antigens in their gut tend to have higher levels of the bacteria Faecalicatena lactaris. * This bacteria also appears to be a very efficient metabolizer of these blood antigens. * This means that people with different blood types may have slightly different gut microbiomes and might need to take that into account when they make diet or lifestyle choices. * *Fiber and Gut Bacteria:* Eating a lot of fiber is generally good for your gut. However, the study found that the bacteria Faecalicatena lactaris does not easily switch to digesting fiber. This means that even if you eat a lot of fiber, this bacteria might still prefer to feed on other things, such as secreted blood antigens. Other mucin-degrading bacteria are more likely to switch to fiber when it is available. * *Gut Microbes and Mental Health*: * The study suggests that there may be a connection between a specific gut microbe called Morganella and depression. This highlights the *gut-brain connection*, meaning that what happens in your gut can affect your brain and your mental health. * The study also suggests that the MED13L gene is associated with Enterococcus faecalis, which may be linked to a higher risk of colorectal cancer. * *What You Can Do:* * *Consider your genetics:* You can get genetic testing to see if you have some of the gene variations discussed in the study, like the one for lactose intolerance. This will help you understand how your body works and help you make dietary choices. * *Pay attention to your diet:* What you eat strongly affects your gut microbes. If you're lactose intolerant, you may want to consider whether dairy is good for you. You might also want to consider if you should eat more fiber, and what type of fiber would best support a healthy gut. * *Be mindful of the gut-brain connection:* Keep your gut healthy as it might have an impact on your mental well-being. * *Talk to a professional:* The study is complex, so it's best to discuss it with a doctor or a registered dietitian before making big changes to your diet or lifestyle. * *Remember that research is ongoing:* This study provides valuable information, but the authors recommend further research into several of these connections. In short, this study underscores the idea that our gut is a complex ecosystem that is influenced by our genes, our diet, our blood type and a host of other factors. By understanding these interactions, we can take better care of our overall health.

alecst 2y ago

I can’t go into too much detail here, but I interrupted a severe depression by fasting for two straight weeks. It’s hard to say why it worked — my friends assume that the microbiome is implicated because of the dietary change. Plausible, but hardly a proof. This gives me at least one direction to look in.

angst_ridden 2y ago
There is also a known phenomenon of "starvation euphoria." I don't know at what point of caloric deficit that kicks in, but it probably varies dramatically.
mateus1 2y ago
Interesting, I had a bout of depression that I believe started when I did a monthlong low carb low calorie diet (with doctors and nutritionist). Gut health is a huge factor.
- goda90 2y ago
  Low carb and low calorie for a month sounds rough in general. Maybe the depression could be attributed to exhaustion and a suppressed metabolism as well.
  - stewarts 2y ago
    Very individualized. I have drastically better gut health, skin health, energy when on a low carb diet for an extended duration. Maintaining that diet for an extended duration, however, is always the challenge when others in the household do not follow it. Logically, I should stop being a baby and just power on with it. Or at least determine what in my "normal" western diet negatively impacts gut health/skin health and overall energy.
digbybk 2y ago
As an alternate theory, I’ve always thought that deliberate, controlled suffering gives you a mood boost. Or rather, the relief after the suffering has ended. The theory is that it’s not good for us emotionally to be comfortable continuously. Maybe fasting is an example of that?

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Arrekin 2y ago

Keto is the only thing that fixes my depression-like state. I discovered it doing short-term fasts and then learned about Keto. I tested it multiple times. Once I get off Keto I feel much worse within 2 weeks and after around 1 month I am at the total bottom again. Then go back to Keto, 2-3 days of suffering Keto Flu and I'm happy to live again.

dombesz 2y ago
You probably have gut dysbiosis causing inflamation of your gut and inflamation leads to depression like symptoms. This doesn’t mean you have to eat keto all the time, but rather that you should take probiotics to restore your gut flora. This way, you can continue eating a balanced diet without allowing that specific bacteria to become overpopulated. The best for me was using Lactobacyllus subtilis HU-58 alongside low-fodmap diet. The low fodmap diet is a shorter period of 1 month, then it needs to continue with the RENEW diet for 3-6months to 1 year. This whole period needs to be supplimented with hu58.
- Arrekin 2y ago
  Thank you I'll check that out. Tho, for me, it most likely began as a post-flu complication, so I don't have much hopes.
- machiaweliczny 2y ago
  I had some gut bacteria issues and I think I was helped recently by using oregano oil and/or allicine (extract from garlic). Used both for a week, before had 2x antibiotics for suspected SIBO. I also used VivoMaxx 450 probiotics and sodium butyrate for 3 days so maybe it was it. All of these combined are cheaper than single curation with antibiotics so worth giving a shot in case of issues.
- baxtr 2y ago
  Thanks. Very interesting. Do you know why HU 58 is so special?
hellectronic 2y ago
Checkout the book Brain Energy by Christopher Palmer

maxfurman 2y ago

So if, for the sake of argument, the findings here are correct and causal and should be acted upon, what exactly is one supposed to do about it? We've got the technology to detect gut bacteria but we don't seem to have good targeted ways to affect it.

revx 2y ago
Cut things that contain diethanolamine from your home/diet/life?
troyvit 2y ago
An interesting way to affect gut bacteria is to get a fecal transplant. It doesn't look fun, and I don't know how well it works, but I bet that's the direction to go. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-therapies/fecal-transplant https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/treatment-tests-and-t...
- Vampiero 2y ago
  No wonder dogs like to eat shit off the ground
calibas 2y ago
> We've got the technology to detect gut bacteria but we don't seem to have good targeted ways to affect it. Healthy diet, fasting, probiotics, reducing stress, among other methods.

kvgr 2y ago

This explains why my moods gets better for couple of weeks, hwne i take some antibiotics.

kylehotchkiss 2y ago
Causation != correlation. Not all bad moods are caused by bacteria and you’re not factoring in the fact you were sick and got well as a potential mood boosting factor
- hollerith 2y ago
  I'm inclined to believe that GP is rational enough to be able to notice if there were symptoms other than low mood that were so severe and troublesome that GP reacted with chronically-low mood. And I'm inclined to believe that GP is competent enough at writing comments that if there were such non-mood symptoms, GP would've mentioned them. (I don't know anything personally about GP: I'm going on the average rationality level of the writers of HN comments that report on the writer's own health.)

Jun8 2y ago

This is probably a wild (~stupid) idea but can we develop drugs to elite particular bacteria, e.g. just kill Morganella morganii, akin to Ehrlich's magic bullet? Current approaches, I think, use antibiotics that kill a wide range of bacteria, the good with the bad. How would such a thing work? Could there be enzymes specific to one species (or, at least, a family)?

jagraff 2y ago
I don't know about enzymes, but bacteriophages (viruses that target bacteria) are species specific, and have been used successfully as antibacterial treatments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy

1970-01-01 2y ago

Are there studies linking common antibiotics to depression?

TechDebtDevin 2y ago

Find a vegan / natural soap store in your city. Off the Botel in Denver is great, https://offthebottlerefills.com/ https://offthebottlerefills.com/ Ive switched entirely to Bathing Culture myself, an all natural soap brand. https://bathingculture.com/ https://bathingculture.com/

hinkley 2y ago
Alternatively, biodegradable soaps deemed safe for camping may be another good choice. See also Dr Bronner’s, Method, Pré de Provence bar soap.

talkingtab 2y ago

This is a "you don't know what you don't know" thing. This article lays out a path way for a link between a chemical that is common in our lives and depression. That pathway is a common gut bacteria. The article ends with this: "So taken together, there would seem to be good reason to continue to unravel the long-hypothesized inflammation/depression connection, and particularly in regards to possible exacerbating factors such as higher levels of M. morganii infection or even higher environmental exposure to diethanolamine. We seem to have a lot to learn here!" diethanolamine is commonly used in liquid laundry and dish washing detergents, cosmetics, shampoos and hair conditioners. So you really don't know if your hair conditioner, shampoo or dish washing detergent is causing you inflammation & depression. Hmmm. We, as in the institutions that supposedly protect consumers, work on the assumption that anything can be used and added until it is proven not safe. For example, thalidomide. We did not know it would cause deformed babies, so it was assumed to be safe. Okay, so will some corporation knowingly use something that is hazardous, just to make more money. Well we have the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma. Or you can go watch "Erin Brokovitch". And you might want to watch Matix again just for fun.

scoofy 2y ago
I mean this is why Nassim Taleb got extremely controversial with his via negativa approach during his Antifragile and Skin in the Game period (I am a huge fan of his writing). >Drink no liquid that isn’t at least a thousand years old (wine, water, coffee). Eat nothing invented or re-engineered by humans. The argument is straightforward, that human beings are a wildly complex multi-variate system and that throwing wrenches into a complex multi-variate system is generally a horrible idea (this heuristic is inverted and encouraged when the that system is breaking down). Is there a bit of a naturalistic fallacy here? I think sort of, but not significant one. The idea that we could screw up our bodies is obviously there. The flip side of this coin is that I see something as trivial as depression and/or most other non-fatal ailments as completely independent of the evolutionary process, such that experimenting on ourselves to improve our life (again, quality of life over time should not be directly related to probability of genetic reproduction success, as is made obvious from the gay uncle hypothesis). The implications of this extend to where you live, so a bunch of genetically German hippies living in California, pretending to be one with nature, really are being dishonest about the health benefits they pretend to have, when the argument pretty much insists that the region of evolutionary development occurs will be crucial to the benefits of that evolution. Taleb himself lives in NYC, not his genetic homeland of Lebanon. We really just need to be more honest about how little we know about health... especially health outside of the highly reproductive window (13-45).

Theizestooke 2y ago

That's interesting. I always get a bout of depression when the weather changes drastically (increase in temp, drop in pressure). I noticed that when I'm able to poop again, afterwards it starts to get better. Maybe I need to take stuff to speed up digestion?

duncancarroll 2y ago

Related to this, it's been shown that Long Covid sufferers have low levels of circulating serotonin due to viral inflammation downregulating the gut intake of tryptophan (serotonin's precursor) and is also (I believe) correlated with IL-6 similar to the article. [1] Tryptophan is the only way your body can produce serotonin, and if you're not getting serotonin that is a problem and can cause depression, fatigue, irritability, brain fog, brain zaps, etc. The cool thing is there's a workaround: The same paper also found that if you supplement with Hydrolyzed protein (basically pre-digested protein, you can get it off Amazon) the tryptophan variant therein uses a different cellular uptake pathway which is not downregulated. This type of tryptophan is not generally found in food, so it's not like you could just eat a bunch of turkey instead. I tried it and I'll be damned, it worked. This is not medical advice btw, just sharing what worked for me. You have to take it very very slowly because your brain, having been serotonin-starved for years, will have a very, VERY low tolerance, so even though your body rate-limits serotonin production, even the "normal" amount is a big disruption and you can still induce Serotonin Syndrome if you're not careful. I take no more than about a 1/4 serving every other day. Also, goes without saying but DO NOT combine with SSRIs / MAOIs, or anything else that modulates serotonin. [1] https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01034-6 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)01034-6

cpncrunch 2y ago
It's never a good idea to make definitive statements like this from a single unreplicated study, especially when it has serious methodological problems. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/JIR.S456000 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.2147/JIR.S456000
- duncancarroll 2y ago
  I realize you're probably just trying to help, but: A) I tested this on myself with results which are consistent with theirs and which would be unexpected if their conclusions were off-base, which is why I'm comfortable making these statements. B) There is no treatment for Long Covid and people have been suffering for years without any recourse. If my comment helps one person searching the Internet then I don't think it's a bad idea. (Edited to be less snarky)