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South Korea's Democracy Saved Itself (2024)
- sanxiyn 2y agoSadly, the situation is not yet in the past tense and is in progress. Yoon was impeached and impeachment is being litigated in the Constitutional Court. Yoon is arguing some ridiculous excuses which would have been funny if this was not serious. For example, martial law decree no. 1 said "Activities of national assembly, local assemblies, political parties, and all political activities such as political association, assembly, demonstration are hereby forbidden". Decree was widely published and it is a strong evidence that Yoon intended to violate the constitution and disable the legislative branch. Yoon is now claiming "it was copy and pasted from old authoritarian martial law decrees by mistake". No, really. It doesn't make any sense by itself, but moreover, this can't possibly be the case because South Korean local rule was introduced after democratic transition so no mention of "local assemblies" is possible in old decrees. I mean, lying is pretty difficult, reality has surprising details...
- bamboozled 2y agoYoon is arguing some ridiculous excuses which would have been funny if this was not serious. Sounds like a standard "democratic leader" these days.
- sanxiyn 2y agoIs anyone else claiming to have made copy and paste error in, say, executive orders?
- winternewt 2y ago[flagged]
- beAbU 2y agoThe only people that I see that are actually blaming it on autism are those that are sky high from smoking copium. Musk himself is pretty overtly affirming what he did, with his nazi name puns and other tweets.
- pjc50 2y agoI'm reminded of https://www.forbes.com/sites/ljkelly/2017/07/18/how-fontgate-could-bring-down-the-pakistani-government/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/ljkelly/2017/07/18/how-fontgate...
- sanxiyn 2y agoThis is golden. Thank you so much.
- ipython 2y agoThere's some accusations along those lines: https://futurism.com/trump-admin-accused-ai-executive-orders https://futurism.com/trump-admin-accused-ai-executive-orders. It wouldn't be too far fetched to assume that rushing to release these so quickly may have involved some shortcuts resulting in typos and a lack of polish.
- robertlagrant 2y agoMistakenly pasting in martial law is surely grounds for impeachment in its own right. Ignorance of what law you're passing is not an excuse.
- kijin 2y agoSufficiently advanced incompetence surely is indistinguishable from malice.
- dartos 2y agoDon’t attribute to malice what could also be attributed to incompetence In this case, seems pretty clear cut though.
- potato3732842 2y ago> Ignorance of what law you're passing is not an excuse Pretty much every elected legislature ever uses this excuse and gets away with it again and again and again at each election cycle. They will fight tooth and nail to prevent a precedent to the tune of "it's your job to know" even if the precedent is against the executive because even that is too close for comfort.
- lesuorac 2y agoClearly he should've just added a disclaimer like ever single one of Trump's EOs [1]. "Sec. 4. General Provisions. (a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect: (i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or" [2] Or all the generic legal documents that say "void where prohibited by law" and etc. In general, writing a document that complies with the law seems to be not a requirement. [1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_orders_in_the_second_presidency_of_Donald_Trump https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_executive_orders_in_... [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20250121003847/https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/initial-rescissions-of-harmful-executive-orders-and-actions/ https://web.archive.org/web/20250121003847/https://www.white...
- alephnerd 2y agoHe's an Ajussi - wouldn't be surprised he can't use Word /s The sheer contempt the older generation of Korean politicians have to democratic norms is disheartening but sadly not surprising. While all countries show hallmarks of gerontocracy, I feel it's much more stark in South Korea given how rapidly SK shifted from developing to developed. Hopefully the younger generation of Koreans can finally take the mantle of power, but I'm pessimistic about it - at best it'd be scions from monied families that have done well since the Park era if not all the way to the Japanese era.
- noxs 2y agowell, do people forget that Yoon was also voted by South Korea's Democracy
- actionfromafar 2y agoSemantics and language are actually important here, IMHO. Democracy-"the system" saved itself here. This is somewhat distinct from who or what people vote for.
- suraci 2y agoThis is what I mean by the advantage of the "democratic system." Democracy can always save a country from the mess. As for why it’s in the mess, don’t worry about that. Presidents may be impeached, removed from office, or even die, but the system will never fail.
- throw0101d 2y ago> Democracy can always save a country from the mess. Unless the people themselves want to give up on democracy and… oh, I don't know, let's pick a random example out of thin air… storm government buildings to stop the process to keep their desired leader in power.
- suraci 2y agoYeah, they failed - the system saved itself again
- thrance 2y agoAnd then they all get pardoned, including the neonazis, by said leader that is elected 4 years later because the people have very short memory and he wants to protect his brown shirts.
- g-b-r 2y agoand, probably, have his own militia
- Joker_vD 2y agoMaybe they should just remove the president's post altogether? Seriously, almost every one of recent SK presidents were convicted of something after they left the post. How... why do such people regularly keep getting elected there, and why do they even bother to, since there is already an established pattern of criminal convictions, do they think they'll break it and get away with whatever they did?
- tonyhart7 2y agoyeah south korean president has wild track record given how advance south korea are like they almost turned into "north korea" dictatorship, thats seriously wild things are
- Hamuko 2y agoAnd haven't all of them been pardoned for all the wild shit they've done? I remember seeing Americans cheering when the president got impeached, going on about how "this is how you do it in a democracy", even though there's a pretty decent chance that the next guy or the guy after him will just pardon him.
- yladiz 2y agoIf we assume that the country isn't going to become authoritarian and will have some form of democratic elections, if you get rid of the president's post, you need an equivalent person and the shift in responsibilities. If the system changed to not elect the leader directly, but indirectly like in Germany, it wouldn't just change the possibility of someone corrupt getting into power, just the way they get into power. With that in mind, what would you replace it with?
- boxed 2y agoPresidental systems with real power behind the president has only one success story: USA. And we'll see if it's still a success story after these four years. Meanwhile parliamentary systems have a much stronger track record imo.
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- shoemakersteve 2y agoJust barely. Had the military been just a bit more indoctrinated, they may have started shooting. Which, as far as I understand, were the instructions they received. If nothing else, if the legislators weren't able to get in, this would have gone a whole other way, and the coup could easily have been successful.
- ANewFormation 2y agoIt's not about military indoctrination but the popularity of the leader. Yoon is exceptionally unpopular. If he had 80% approval, instead, he would probably now be the dictator of The People's Democratic Republic of South Korea. Without that approval the best you're looking at (from his perspective) is mass unrest which an opportunistic nation like their neighbor could foment, support, and exploit.
- suraci 2y agoIn fact, DPRK anticipated that Yoon Suk-yeol might attempt to ignite conflict on the peninsula to justify imposing martial law. Therefore, DPRK preemptively severed the roads between the two countries to prevent this from happening. Although DPRK is often scorned by the West, it is far more rational and stable than many other countries. https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/c70wgxr4zndo https://www.bbc.com/news/videos/c70wgxr4zndo
- sealeck 2y agoVery rational, except that the leadership is starving the population, banned the internet, and executes people by strapping them to anti-aircraft guns. Oh and has send thousands of its citizens to die in Ukraine.
- suraci 2y agoIf you consume more information from South Korean media, you'll know they not only execute people with anti-aircraft guns but also with dogs.
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- noobermin 2y agoThis is now soon to be politically incorrect in America given the sitting president now avoided such a fate.
- roenxi 2y ago> There are approximately 28,500 U.S. military personnel stationed in South Korea... > A fully functioning UN Command is at the top of the chain of command of all forces in South Korea, including the U.S. forces and the entire South Korean military... ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea#United_States_contingent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea#United_States_cont... Despite the headline, it would seem fair to claim that the US is acting as an anchor here to the South Korean government. I wouldn't suggest there is anything improper here since the South Korean army is around half a million strong and can do what it wants, but in the event of a coup I imagine the US would be playing a significant deciding factor. How the military moves is what ultimately matters in an uprising, particularly the opinions of the top generals.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pjc50 2y ago> but in the event of a coup I imagine the US would be playing a significant deciding factor Yes, but on which side?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pyrale 2y agoThe US military presence is from before the country’s current democratic transition, and did nothing to prevent past coup.
- maxglute 2y ago>did nothing to prevent past coup That's the joke. US consistently supported SK coup(er)s (there's been several) as long as the couper is anti-communists / aligned with US geopolitical interests. The last two in late 70s were post Combined Forces Command, and including this one, with capacity of US intelligence, it's hard to rationalize US did not know what was going to happen.
- thisislife2 2y agoHas it really? I don't think the "movie is over" (as we colloquially say in India) and this was just the "opening scene" than the "climatic finish" that some think it is. South Korea is an oligarchic democracy, and, as the paper points out, has developed deep political divisions between the left- and the right- in its society. The deposed South Korean President was a favourite of the Biden administration ( https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2022/07/yoon-suk-yeol-is-bidens-perfect-south-korea-partner.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2022/07/yoon-suk-yeol-i... ) because of his pro-western and pro-business values and his political willingness to militarily commit to western / US foreign policies against China and Russia. (He is the first South Korean President to attend a NATO summit, has been public about his desire that South Korea be a part of an "Asian NATO" - Quad + Jarokus + AUKUS - supported sanctions against Russia and has even supplied Ukraine with the artillery they badly needed). Some of Biden's and Yoon's foreign policies seem to have backfired on South Korea as North Korea's near-total alienation, that previous US and South Korean administration had achieved, to economically and military weaken it, is now over. (Russia and North Korea have signed a new political and military alliance, committed to help each other if the other is attacked and, North Korean troops will not only get upgraded armaments from Russia but are also getting battle trained in real warfare conditions in the Russia-Ukraine war). Many South Koreans are not thrilled about this, because the most serious and imminent threat for South Korea has always been from the North Koreans. While many South Koreans understand that a military alliance with the US means that they cannot disregard US foreign policy concerns, many in the left- are concerned that there was still enough room to manoeuvre to not aggravate both China and Russia so much that they are now openly hostile against South Korea too. I believe this was one of the underlying tension between the Yoon's administration and the opposition - instead of trying to create a democratic political consensus in South Korea about his policies, he suddenly decided to deal with valid criticism about his domestic and foreign policies by attacking the opposition as “pro-North anti-state forces”. (This was stupid as even though latent anti-war sentiment amongst the South Korean working class is high, the left-leaning opposition Democratic Party are also inclined to the idea of joining the US lead anti-China military alliance and a consensus on foreign policies atleast was very much possible.) His political bungling and attempt to tarnish the opposition as North Korean stooge now means forming political consensus will be now more difficult and further polarise South Korean polity, thus allowing Russia, China and the US to interfere more in their political affairs. I fear democracy in South Korea is still under threat, just it is in many other parts of the world facing similar political polarisation.
- heresie-dabord 2y agoProof once more that the enemies of Democracy can be both foreign and domestic. > The democracy movement isn’t just history but is also actively taught in schools as part of national identity. Education is the beginning. "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty." [1] > Conservative leaders now have to choose between democratic principles and party loyalty. To choose party (or any other) loyalty over democratic principles and the constitution is treason. For any voters to support such a party implies a deep failure to instill democratic principles and knowledge of history. [1] _ https://www.monticello.org/exhibits-events/blog/eternal-vigilance/ https://www.monticello.org/exhibits-events/blog/eternal-vigi...
- wakawaka28 2y ago>To choose party (or any other) loyalty over democratic principles and the constitution is treason. For any voters to support such a party implies a deep failure to instill democratic principles and knowledge of history. Being loyal to one's party is something they all do (except for a handful of people who may very well be turncoats). You can't reasonably interpret hiring "loyalists" to positions that you have every legal right to fill as anti-democracy, in general, because everyone does it. You certainly wouldn't expect someone to tolerate disloyal and disobedient subordinates if they had the choice, would you? There needs to be some discretion but many jobs are promised to supporters long before any election.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- pjc50 2y agoLoyalty above the law is corruption. You can't have a modern state without some degree of loyalty to the concept of the democratic state itself, over and above personal ties.
- wakawaka28 2y agoI'm not suggesting that anyone should break the law. (There are some rare circumstances where that is justifiable, but I'm not getting into that right now. It's basically irrelevant.) I sense that someone is trying to connect the South Korea wannabe dictator to one of our political parties, and it's not even close to comparable. Call me when the Bill of Rights is suspended or something.
- g-b-r 2y agoWhat concerns me the most is that I haven't heard talks of fixing the core problem, which was Korean's constitution. You can argue if what Yoon did was illegal or not, but it was close enough to legal that the military obeyed his orders. It's just out of a strike of luck that the martial law was retired. That part of the constitution seems ludicrous to me, it means their democracy is in constant danger; it's amazing that both parties haven't prioritized fixing it.