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Four thoughts: 1. I've developed a analog->digital path for my kids. Before they can get a music player, they get a CD player. Before they get video games, the

• mrnaught 2y ago
  "analog->digital path" thank you!
• ta1243 2y ago
  How far along this path are your kids?
• ozim 2y ago
  Gorilla in the room are other f*ng parents. You can prevent as much as you want but then kids go to school nd everyone else has accounts they should not have or devices they should not have and your kids are angry at you because now you are the bad guy.
  • ceejayoz 2y ago
    Yup. "Why didn't my kid get invited to that birthday? Oh, it was organized on Snapchat..." We have a no phones in the bedroom and no phones past a certain time rule, but disconnecting entirely makes one a social pariah.
    • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
      << disconnecting entirely makes one a social pariah. Maybe, maybe not. The real question is.. do I really want my kid to associate with kids that are so heavily invested in social media. I know my personal answer to this. I even know my SO answer and the upcoming battles ahead.
      • ceejayoz 2y ago
        It’s widespread enough your question boils down to “do I really want my kid to have friends”.
        • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
          I will tell you what I told my colleague as to whether I am sad that having a big dog prevents family reunions or boyfiends coming over. Sometimes things just work out in our favor.
    • avereveard 2y ago
      There's almost zero chance for that pretend scenario to happen, kid and parents intermingle all the time at drop off and other school activities, kids are pretty vocal about their birthday and who they want to be present, and their parents will find a way to get the message across, and the kid will know from school interactions anyway if they are invited, and relay the info to the parent.
      • ceejayoz 2y ago
        Drop off in my area is a line of cars. No mingling. Activities are great if the kids share one, but plenty of friends don’t. By high school, parents tend not to be doing the organizing at all. Outside birthdays, the same thing happens with “hey wanna come over?” ad-hoc scenarios. It isn’t a pretend scenario. We had to loosen up rules because it was happening to our kids.
  • ikiris 2y ago
    “Devices or accounts they should not have” Just because you think your kids should be limited to the Bible or no phones or no social media or no d&d or whatever arbitrary limits / moral panic you impose, does not extend those limits to other kids in any moral fashion. Those kids have full rights to have whatever they have and you are indeed the bad guy for your arbitrary limits if they are not common or inhibiting socially.
    • randunel 2y ago
      No, those kids can't have whatever they have if they're under 13, 14 or 18, depending on what it is that they have.
      • iugtmkbdfil834 2y ago
        They can.. if one of the following is true: 1. Their parents are doing exceptionally bad job 2. Their parents are doing exceptionally good job Sadly, there is no way to tell, because not all kids are created equal. I know my parents had to basically remove our PC from our home ( how many parents have that option today? ) to put me and my siblings in line. Unfortunately, this only adds to the problem, because bad parents tend to think they are great and vice-versa.
    • ericmcer 2y ago
      What there is 100% a precedent for prohibiting certain activities from minors because their brains are undeveloped. In the future we will view a child spending hours a day on Tiktok how we currently view a kid smoking cigarettes. It is creating an entire generation of anxious, ADHD addled kids who struggle with school and focused work of any kind.
      • ikiris 2y ago
        [citation needed] for evidence that somehow TikTok is at all responsible for causing adhd
        • 2y ago
  • ericmcer 2y ago
    Exactly, I see all these idealized strategies around social media and children but the reality is nothing is going to overcome the peer pressure of being 12 years old and the only kid at school without a phone. Until schools and government restrict phone ownership in a real way, parents are going to keep giving phones to their 8 year olds.
    • figers 2y ago
      We choose an apple watch for this reason, that way we can still call them / locate them, they are part of their friends iMessage groups, but no social media apps are possible...
      • feistypharit 2y ago
        We just got Apple Watches for our 11 and 13 year olds. It is a decent middle ground, as up to now we’ve been very limiting of their screen time. Our district has strict blocks in place at school, but most kids still already have phones. We did it for that reason and so so we don’t introduce phones at the same time they start driving (which is when we figured they’d actually need it) One thing I wasn’t quite prepared for is kids use huge group chats that result in hundreds of messages a day. Learned how to mute discussions really quick. You can also limit access to groups with parental controls. Key is talking to your kids regularly and helping them navigate life. Real and digital.
  • asoneth 2y ago
    > everyone else has accounts they should not have or devices they should not have You can start the conversation with other parents at kindergarten pickup. Each grade at our school has a pledge that kids & parents can sign to wait until eighth grade to let them have a smartphone. This can be as simple as a shared spreadsheet or a dedicated site like https://www.waituntil8th.org https://www.waituntil8th.org My kids are still young but from what I've heard from families with older kids is that holding the line gets increasingly hard as they approach 8th grade. You have to be prepared to socially exclude families that let their underage children use smartphones or social media, the same way you wouldn't invite a family that lets their middle-schooler drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes to your kid's birthday party. While you can never get everyone to agree to anything, as long as your kids have a critical mass of friends who don't have smartphones then not having one won't make them an outcast.
    • aczerepinski 2y ago
      All of my kid’s sixth grade friends have smartphones. No exceptions. If I excluded those families my kid wouldn’t be allowed to have friends. Best I can do is take the other kids phones away after a certain number of screen hours at my house. Limiting screen time is an exceptionally challenging task because of the many loopholes and bugs in parental controls, and my lack of direct control over the chromebooks the schools issue. Do you really think you can predict your kids future friends correctly and lobby the correct set of parents during kindergarten years?
      • asoneth 2y ago
        > All of my kid’s sixth grade friends have smartphones My condolences. I agree that it's too late once you hit a tipping point and a critical mass of their friends have smartphones. At that point you have to fall back to weaker backup defenses like parental controls and limiting screen time. The point of Wait Until 8th is to provide a little more time to let them form their own self-image and build up their ability to manage their attention and information diet. > Do you really think you can predict your kids future friends correctly and lobby the correct set of parents during kindergarten years? Instead of trying to predict the "correct" set you can just lobby everyone. Our public school has about a hundred kids per grade from K through 8th. Parents bring it up not just at school pickup but on playdates, the local listserv, the PTO newsletter, when new families move to the neighborhood, etc. Apparently several older grades have managed to hold the line such that most kids in that grade didn't have smartphones until high school, and many didn't even have smartwatches or dumbphones.
  • lolinder 2y ago
    The best thing my parents ever did for me was cultivate a sense of familial superiority. Other families had the TV on all the time, but we read books instead because we were 'better'. Other kids did drugs and drank, but we were better than that. Peer pressure didn't have much of an impact on me because I was raised to believe that I was better than 'that' for most values of 'that'. And my parents never had to force me on any of this—they just invited me to be a part of their exclusive club. There might be a way around this that doesn't involve cultivating a mild condescension towards peers, but I can say from experience that the condescension does work!
    • siavosh 2y ago
      I think you're on to something...
    • ckz 2y ago
      Agreed. So much of it is identity (going back to James Clear in Atomic Habits). "I'm not a smoker" is more powerful than "I'm trying to quit". "We just don't watch Youtube on our phones in this house." [and you work to develop that into healthy self-confidence rather than ego] Growing up homeschooled, we had the same simmering sense of pride in not doing what others (e.g. "public schoolers" did). Never had a rebellious teen phase, etc. Some families overdid it, but...idk...I'm still quite close to my parents, so I never felt stifled. It makes it -very- natural in life to focus on what my SO and I think are optimal and more or less disregard what's normal.
    • iforgot22 2y ago
      My family didn't exactly say "better," but they meant it.
      • lolinder 2y ago
        Yeah, I put 'better' in scare quotes because we didn't use that word exactly, but that was definitely the idea. I realize now that that's the opposite of what a quote usually means, but too late now!
    • rachofsunshine 2y ago
  • herewulf 2y ago
    It's okay to be "the bad guy". They're your kids, not your friends. Too many parents want to be buddies with their kids these days. That's just setting everyone up for failure. My wife and I have a loving relationship with our kids but they are quite clear on the fact that we are not equals. The distinction will lessen as they reach adulthood and prove their responsibility.
    • tisdadd 2y ago
      I know that I have a great friendship as an adult with my parents, in part because they were parents while I was growing up. I had a friend ask what I would do in a situation and I wanted to yell be a parent! Said something nicer, but basically gently pointed out that sometimes that means giving up things you may want to do to show a good example. For instance, if you are always on social media then of course they will want to be too. Right now, you are the biggest influence on your children's life, even when they do not like something now that does not mean they will not thank you later. Anyway, I was debating building a house that wouldn't allow radio waves in so that everything has to be approved. One of the quotes I like is, "It is not the things that I had as a child that makes me the man I am today, but the things I did not." Went on a bit of a tangent, but I just wanted to encourage that for most of history it was considered good for children to learn to interact well not with their peers but with their elders. This helps firm realistic expectations of what the majority of life will be like, the opposite of social media and much of the internet. Also, remember that if you address a topic with your child first you are the trusted expert, rather than someone else, in their minds.
      • skydhash 2y ago
        Pretty much this. My farther was strict on on the kind of behavior he did not tolerate (and made them explicit early). No compromises. We were aware of the lines and the closer we tread to them, the more he took on the role of authority. But after we became adult and there was no need for that authority role, we became quite good friends with each other. My mother rarely had to take up on that role, but there was still clear separation between children and parents.
  • ekianjo 2y ago
    > Gorilla in the room are other f*ng parents That's why some people prefer home schooling
  • dchichkov 2y ago
    Another Gorilla is the schools, teachers and state-approved recommendations, that extend their reach even into private schools. Imagine my frustration one day, when I've discovered that my kindergartner has full access to a brand-new, shiny iPad during class. Despite complaints from parents, the teacher refused to reduce iPad usage (or even activate Screen Distance and Screen Time controls on the iPad, or share usage statistics). The only thing that I've learned, this is all in line with California’s state-approved computer literacy recommendations.
    • glangdale 2y ago
      100% this. Our kids were required to bring laptops to school for no particularly good reason, then allowed to zombie out on them in the library during lunch and free periods. Infuriating.
      • dchichkov 2y ago
        I understand that it is mostly regulated at the state level. I'm not sure about other states, but The Computer Science Standards for California Public Schools (Kindergarten through Grade Twelve) also tend to be followed by private schools. So they can claim their programs meet state requirements. This brings computers into the classroom, and once they’re available, it is a slippery slope. It is easier for teachers to have students use semi-gamified "educational" apps rather than engage themselves. Example for K-2 - https://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/csstandards.pdf https://www.cde.ca.gov/be/st/ss/documents/csstandards.pdf: K-2.CS.1 Select and operate computing devices that perform a variety of tasks accurately and quickly based on user needs and preferences. K-2.CS.2 Explain the functions of common hardware and software components of computing systems. K-2.CS.3 Describe basic hardware and software problems using accurate terminology. K-2.NI.4 Model and describe how people connect to other people, places, information and ideas through a network. ... K–2 K-2.AP.12 Create programs with sequences of commands and simple loops, to express ideas or address a problem K-2.IC.20 Describe approaches and rationales for keeping login information private, and for logging off of devices appropriately
        • 2y ago
  • bigstrat2003 2y ago
    > and your kids are angry at you because now you are the bad guy. Kids have been angry at their parents for parenting decisions since time immemorial. I don't think it's actually a big deal.
  • palata 2y ago
    Agreed, you can't prevent them from having access to social media. What you can do, though, is show them that there are tons of better things to do than swiping on their phone for hours. I don't know many kids who would rather watch videos than actually do something cool.
  • datavirtue 2y ago
    It's not that simple. Had I cut my daughter off and not allowed a phone, she would never have made the connections with the good friends she has. I am convinced these phones are troubling our youth but cutting them off is not advised.
• Trasmatta 2y ago
  Are they allowed to play games at other kid's houses? Like, if they're at their friend's house and everyone is playing Super Smash Bros together, but they haven't "graduated" out of the board game phase, will they get in trouble for joining in? In theory I like your idea, but there are so many "edge cases" that make it a challenging thing to implement, and something that could backfire if its too strict.
  • scop 2y ago
    Good question. Yes they can play. The main absolute no-go activity with friends is something with exploration on the internet. That includes things like YT kids. But, hey you want to play Smash Bros even though we don’t at home, sure have fun! These are not hard and fast rules, more of a system. Our youngest plays video games much younger than our oldest kid, since we have video games in the house now and didn’t with your first. However, I still make sure my youngest is getting plenty of tactile/analog play in as the majority of time spent.
    • Trasmatta 2y ago
      I like it! Thanks for the explanation of your process.
    • ckz 2y ago
      This is how we handle it as well. We were at friends' last night and the older kids had the N64 out. The older kids reported that ours just wanted to be read to the whole time, but early doses of things we intend to introduce anyway (video games predating modern addictive mechanics) are fine at that frequency. We are mindful of potential Pandora's boxes though. You can't ban everything unhealthy without causing long term issues. You strive though to only introduce things when they're developmentally ready to cope with it, even if that means restrictions on yourself as an adult. You work to constantly provide good examples via your own life, compelling narratives, etc. of people who exemplify the virtues you want to instill. That's how you help shape (the best you can) the life of someone with an innate identity to, when necessary, "just say no", or simply be uninterested in and unswayed by things that don't conform to their value system. They aren't stifled by rules and wrestling with temptation--not valuing YT Kids is just who they are.
• AstralStorm 2y ago
  This is way too slow and thus will be only effective in baiting your kids to try it early or harder. Or give them an anti-tech superiority complex which is counterproductive. I'd say you need to start actually explaining how things work on these more advanced platforms immediately, as well as healthy patterns in use so they do not get sucked into it forever. And that these things are tools. It can be done ELI3, though it's not easy. There are resources abound.
  • scop 2y ago
    My kids play Minecraft and Sonic all the time these days. The key is my kids have developed a sense of how some things are different than others and that is good and also bad. It’s a system that allows and encourages discussion.
  • Dwedit 2y ago
    How do you explain these kind of ideas to a three-year-old?
  • Mr-Frog 2y ago
    > anti-tech superiority complex which is counterproductive I didn't have a phone until significantly after my peers, so I used our family computer, Instagram's undocumented API, and a variety of SMS forwarding solutions to keep in touch with my friends, which I think definitely sparked my interest in hacking and a career in software. I developed a superiority complex, but it was more anti-conformity and pro-hacking than anything.
    • kridsdale1 2y ago
      This complex is deserved.
      • deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
• rahimnathwani 2y ago
  I find the overall approach fascinating, but I chuckled at this part because CDs are digital: "I've developed a analog->digital path for my kids. Before they can get a music player, they get a CD player." If anyone wants to start with analogue, perhaps start with vinyl, then cassette tape, and then CD. I had a cassette player before a record player, but vinyl seems easier to grok because you can use a steel needle to hear the sound, instead of the cartridge and amplifier.
  • scop 2y ago
    Heh, you’re indeed right. I use analog in a very loose sense, perhaps better said as “tactile”. As in “I take a CD out of the case, I open my player, I put the CD in the case, I use physical buttons to move one track at a time”.
  • stephenhuey 2y ago
    I get what scop meant. Family vehicles had cassette or 8-track players when I was a kid and I figured out how to use my parents' record player, but for the purposes of what he was getting at, CDs are a more "analog" experience than streaming music, and give you a feel for what playing an album is like. You have to physically put in and remove the disc to change the music, whereas streaming gives you any song at your fingertips.
    • kridsdale1 2y ago
      I think it’s fair enough to call a CD analog because the data stream is nothing for than wave amplitudes. It doesn’t use a Fourier transform or compression or require “software”.
      • jedmeyers 2y ago
        It does require a digital to analog converter, though.
        • genewitch 2y ago
• blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  What do you do when other kids are on social media or have advanced devices early? Your own kids will get exposed to those and be upset that they don’t have the same things or the same access to social media. Maybe they’ll even create secret profiles and build a wall between themselves and their parents. I feel like it’s hard to keep society away from one’s own children.
  • scop 2y ago
    First of all we foster a very strong community of likeminded friends from school, church, and other activities. We don’t all see eye to eye on every little thing, but we have generally the same goal. Second of all is that we talk to our kids about it, we try and make these things a conversation. FWIW we were homeschooling for quite awhile but they now go to a school that has a No-Phone policy.
    • blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      Thanks. When you homeschool how do you create enough opportunities for social development?
• deleted 2y ago
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• ryandrake 2y ago
  > 2. The gorilla in the room is that most adults can barely handle online media. I think this is the huge one. Kids can spot hypocrisy easily. You can't convince a kid to not get addicted to social media if you yourself are addicted. Just like children of smokers know their smoking parents telling them not to smoke are full of shit. I do it by 1. not using social media and 2. when I do use my phone, set a good example by visibly using it for a specific purpose, putting it down after I'm done doing the task. Rather than just sitting there like a zombie scrolling and "consuming content." I'm deliberately trying not to normalize sitting there scrolling your phone, oblivious to the world around you. You can't hide this entirely because every time you go out into the world, you see adults everywhere zoned out mesmerized by their phones.
  • stephenhuey 2y ago
    My wife reminds me of this. And as you both pointed out, it's not just social media, but the algorithmically fueled addiction to endless content. A relative told me their teenagers have to use Chromebooks in middle school, and all quizzes and tests and homework are done on the computer. Not only that, but if they finish a quiz or test in the classroom, they're allowed to sit there and watch YouTube right there in the classroom until the period is over! When I was in middle school, that free time was precious to me because I used it to make a dent in my homework so I'd have less to do after school. It boggles my mind that school administrators would have no clue that kids should have not unfettered access to stuff like YouTube in school. As a guy who has to work on computers most of the time, I'm very grateful my childhood had plenty of analog time, and life in the great outdoors on a daily basis!
    • mwigdahl 2y ago
      When my oldest was going into middle school the district started providing devices for the kids to use in class. There was breathless hype about how this would usher in a new age of technological competence and improved pedagogy. I asked the district IT folks in attendance what types of controls they had in place to prevent misuse -- watching YouTube, open browsing of the web, etc. They had literally nothing in place. You can guess how that went. I love Vernor Vinge's works, but the worst prediction of his ever, just 180 degrees totally in the wrong direction, was _Rainbow's End_'s treatment of technology in education. His take (and this was as late as 2006!) was that unfettered access to technology would turn elementary students into a cohort of genius autodidacts. Fast forward to 2025 (coincidently the date the book is set in) and unfettered access to technology has turned children into feed-consuming zombies.
• ckz 2y ago
  #1 is exactly what we're doing with ours. The little one understands cassettes and the concept of an audiobook or a Welles radio drama (sometimes MP3/CD, but I record custom cassettes too). I have a millenium-era iMac set up as the family computer in anticipation of introductory computing when old enough (probably soon) and learning that digital entertainment is a state of mind and place you go to for a time, and then shut down and do something else. It's in the living room and off, so right now we're just building familiarity with it and exploring the keyboard, mouse, etc. and mimicking dad. Currently the little one -loves- the physical interaction of a typewriter and requests one more than a keyboard (but loose keyboards are fun too!). The TV is a projector screen that recedes into the ceiling. Total screen time for them in the home right now over the past ~2.5y is probably...3 hours? Maybe? My daily driver mobile is a black and white PDA and almost never a phone. I don't think my toddler has -ever- asked me for my phone and certainly wouldn't think to request, e.g. a video on it. Entertainment comes from our books, legos, and trains. My theory is an accelerated progression through history. Mastering technology means understanding where it came from. It takes the shine off the modern rectangle of doom if you can place it in time and space and your first habits aren't built around it. To @ozim's point, the issue is what has been normalized in broader society and so, yeah, we've clearly figured out touchscreens and plenty of local places for kids have unnecessary TVs. The concerns of other kids/parents introducing things to ours too early is mitigated by building a core [home]school and social group who shares enough common values. The differences between our respective households become learning opportunities for everyone. What's fantastic is that I can go to the grocery store or sit in a restaurant for an hour and a half (and even better, two flights with a layover--with effort) with no tantrum from a toddler and no technology. Just...not even a thought that enters.
• thisislife2 2y ago
  Excellent suggestions. I'd add 5. Teach them impulse control and practice delayed gratification.
• racl101 2y ago
  I can only see this working if they're being homeschooled.
• Dweller1622 2y ago
  What does it mean to "handle online media?" How is it you would say "most adults" fall short of this?
• shanecleveland 2y ago
  For #1, I appreciate your approach. I can see the benefit. However, something to be said for allowing kids to consume music, as an example, on their own terms, just as you were likely able to. Can't argue with #2 or #3. I know I could always manage my screen time better. Love #4. I think the previous three could be "See #4." There is only so much you can control as a parent. Do the best you can with what you can control. Be a good example. Help them learn from mistakes. There are certainly more appropriate ages than others to expose children to technology, media, etc. Whatever you decide, just know that they will eventually have the freedom to find it on their own. The important thing then is how well prepared are they to make healthy and positive choices at that time.