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I created an account with Hetzner earlier this year, and confirmed my Credit Card with them, but a few second later, they auto-suspended my account before I cou

• vdfs 2y ago
  I've been reading about how great Hetzner for years but i couldn't get past the sigup page where they require a credit card just to create an account.
  • aryonoco 2y ago
    Honestly if you are providing computer resources, that's pretty standard now and one of the only lines of defence against abuse
  • megous 2y ago
    Is that a US thing? I'm reasonably sure I did not give them my debit card.
• Simon_ORourke 2y ago
  That's a particularly, but unfortunately good example of how awful they are as a company. The sooner they get pushed out of business the better.
• viraptor 2y ago
  It's always a balance between how much fraud you allow and how many real customers you reject. They set their threshold at an interesting level, but maybe they're happy with that choice.
  • Buttons840 2y ago
    You're right. But unfortunately this mindset moves us closer and closer to having algorithms exclude people from society and life. And as the stories already told here show, it can happen to any of us for no apparent reason. It's like, imagine a magic wand that, if waved, would make life a little better for 99% of society, but much worse for 1%. Would it be moral to wave that wand?
    • johnfn 2y ago
      Arguably, we wave that magic wand every time we decide not to donate to starving children in third-world countries. Which is pretty often!
    • tshaddox 2y ago
      There’s nothing particularly scary about “algorithms” making these choices since it’s just people at these companies choosing and implementing the algorithms. It wouldn’t get better if those humans weren’t allowed to use algorithms to make these choices since decisions.
    • viraptor 2y ago
      You're making choices like that every single day. Sometimes with reversed percentages. Even posting this message may be on average a tiny loss for the world. (It's meaningless in the end and burned some energy to give one person a mini dopamine boost)
    • noirscape 2y ago
      Well you got a human answering the support hotline. I think that alone kinda nullifies the threat of an algorithm. The entire reason why they're such a massive problem is because Google et al. refuse to operate proper support hotlines to help people and even if they do have a support line (Facebook infamously doesn't have one and wants you to go through the courts to contact them), the support staff aren't actually equipped to help people beyond regurgitating canned support page links. You can't solve a malfunctioning algorithm with another algorithm or by forcing a human to behave like an algorithm. It's not a big secret that the best way to get yourself in front of actual support if GAFAM screws you over is to complain about it on HN because this is where SREs lurk that can actually punt your requests through to people that can look into it. Hetzner at least gave a direct answer to explain the reason.
  • klabb3 2y ago
    What type of fraud exactly? You mean like stolen CCs? It feels very medieval as a financial trust system if every little vendor can’t trust payments, even when you pay up front? Like this is in some ways worse than cold hard cash. And then we pay VISA premium on top of that, for the convenience of being mistrusted..
    • akerl_ 2y ago
      Paying up front doesn't really mean much, because if the credit card info is stolen, the actual owner will report the transaction and it will be reversed.
      • BlueTemplar 2y ago
        I wonder if they tried a debit card...
      • klabb3 2y ago
        Right but that sucks. So CC companies/banks are simply shifting risk from one side of the transaction to the other. Sure, as a consumer you don’t have to worry because you’ll get your money back. But if the merchant has to worry and reject customers who are “suspicious” to protect themselves then you’re back to square one, except more kafkaesque. That’s why I said cash is better. I’d rather have $10 permanently lost for a month of VPS than being banned after 5 days setting it up because I’m traveling and my IP is “suspicious”. Which has happened to me.
        • kassner 2y ago
          Hetzner is actually worse. Current EU directives allow liability shift in online payment when the customer is authenticated via 3D Secure, meaning the risk is extremely low and the onus of proving the fraud is on the card owner. Yet Hetzner will not accept your money if your name doesn’t look correct for the country you are accessing from.
    • viraptor 2y ago
      If they pay up front then dispute, the company will suffer extra charges. With enough of reports, their payment processor fee% goes up and impacts all their payments.
• dan353hehe 2y ago
  Yep. Same thing happened to me. I was not able to get my account working. Ever. I have all my stuff on vultr now.
• Salmonfisher11 2y ago
  > I don't know how they're still in business. They have 400 GBit/s of DTAG transit. Showing that they are rich as fuck without saying it.
• haolez 2y ago
  Same with me a few years ago. Their support told me that they didn't want me as a customer. It was my first interaction with them. I swear I'm just a regular nerd with a credit card :D They are bizarre.
  • Filligree 2y ago
    A credit card? That... makes some sense, then. I'd be wary if anyone trying to pay with one of those as well; they're much too rare, and I've heard it's easy to unilaterally reverse charges. Hetzner is a German company. Credit cards may be common in the USA, but they're not anywhere else.
    • shiroiushi 2y ago
      If they don't want any customers outside of Germany, they should just say so.
    • dpkirchner 2y ago
      I haven't done business in Germany or used German banks -- is it hard to get them to reverse charges?
      • Aachen 2y ago
        Well yes, you go to court if you can't agree with the merchant on anything. They're the competent authority to settle disputes When I pay for something, now the other party has the money, that's how money works. If I trust them that little, I should probably be using escrow but this costs extra and so it imo doesn't make sense to pay that fee for every transaction - as one does with this chargeback guarantee thing. Probabilistic societies where you're excluded based on bad odds or credit scores is what you get with that system (I've been on the losing end of that, not because I've ever had any debt (too little money) but precisely because they had no positive data because I never needed a loan, and so you can't pay for stuff in certain countries because they require a credit card)
        • 2y ago
• qwertox 2y ago
  When I ordered a VPS at Netcup (a Hetzner alternative) they called me and asked me for the name of the hotel next to my place to check if I really lived at the address I provided. I guess that if i would have needed to look it up, that is, struggled a bit with the answer, they would have denied me as a customer.
  • this_user 2y ago
    I had the same thing, but this was a business address while I was working remotely and had no idea about the area. Told them as much on the phone while looking the answer up on Google Maps. They just accepted that and opened the account.
  • indigodaddy 2y ago
    I thought Netcup either colo'ed at or rented servers at, Hetzner? Maybe this was a ways back or have they always had their own DC?
  • Y_Y 2y ago
    If they can look it up then so can you! Maybe it filters out lazy scammers, but it doesn't sound like solid KYC to me. In fact I don't feel like a hosting service should need to do this at all. If you pay your bills and aren't on the Stasi blacklist you should be good to go. I don't want or expect the likes of Hetzner to be responsible for policing.
    • foxylad 2y ago
      As someone who runs mail servers, I wish they'd be MORE strict to stop the drive-by spammers. Every so often our servers get blocked because someone starts sending spam from a machine on the same netblock. It might be good point-of-difference for some hosting service: have brutal KYC so your netblock is well regarded.
      • BenjiWiebe 2y ago
        I agree. I'm currently using Linode. If they started requiring every account to have a valid US passport, I'd happily comply.
• pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  [flagged]
  • reaperman 2y ago
    What led you to assume that GP misrepresented their identity? The way I read the comment - they put their real info but was accused of putting fake info. How would you even attempt to rectify that?
    • Aeolun 2y ago
      Send them a copy of your ID?
      • theamk 2y ago
        doesn't always work apparently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42269262 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42269262
• tonygiorgio 2y ago
  Always felt like they were in the business of blaming and hating their customers. Cloud providers that nitpick and judge every aspect of their customers’ business details and technicalities are a huge operational risk. This archaic practice is the reason generic cloud orchestration was a must, and it’s just not needed anymore. I don’t care how cheap they are. You get what you pay for.
  • Aeolun 2y ago
    There’s nothing about cheap that implies terrible customer service. Or rather, the reverse isn’t necessarily true.
  • jorvi 2y ago
    Are Hetzner Europe and US run by different companies or something? My experience in the EU has been nothing but stellar.
    • rahkiin 2y ago
      I believe so, so that it does not run foul of the CLOUD Act.
• crowcroft 2y ago
  I signed up and immediately got banned because I was accessing through a VPN, which I think is a common problem others have had. I emailed them and their advice was to stop using a VPN and try again.
  • Aachen 2y ago
    That seems fair to me though. If that ISP (whatever the WHOIS resolves to for your VPN) gets a high rate of fraudulent customers, how is Hetzner to know if you're the same fraudster again or a new customer? Especially if you share not just the ISP but even your IP address with someone... we also rate limit logins for example based on IP address. If you're coming from the same origin as an attacker, there's no way for me to tell who's who Perhaps they could implement some way to do a 1-cent bank transfer from an account with a name which isn't on their fraud list, but as a simple step it seems pretty normal to use your regular internet connection (that ties the IP+timestamp combination to a real-world subscriber) and not some anonymity service Although it would be nice if we could be anonymous on the web, when abuse traffic is involved (more than posting a comment on some forum as an anonymous source or something), I don't know how that'd be possible to reconcile
    • crowcroft 2y ago
      I get it, but you'll get a lost of false positives as well. My experience is that they also had slow customer service. I don't want any business critical infra managed by a company willing to be that aggressive in blocking accounts, while also having slow customer service to resolve access issues.
  • throwaway2037 2y ago
    Why were you using a VPN?
    • faet 2y ago
      Apple Private Relay is on by default for a lot of Apple products these days. This is why my account was banned.
• danpalmer 2y ago
  I think this might be a cultural thing. HN, SV, and the market for IaaS/SaaS products is a bit of an American monoculture, where "the customer is always right" and there's a strong desire to make the customer happy. I think this is mostly a good thing and especially a good way to build early stage companies, but in my experience it's less present elsewhere. In some places companies are happy doing their own thing, don't need every customer, don't need to be everything to every customer, and won't fight for business in the same way. Does that limit them? Maybe? But I suspect not enough to be a problem most of the time.
  • lannisterstark 2y ago
    It's not a cultural thing to accuse customers of committing fraud their first interaction. Not being an absolute insane jerk off is a good expectation of people.
    • danpalmer 2y ago
      I'm not advocating for anyone being a nasty person, but there are significant cultural differences again for what it means to be rude. In Japan the cultural expectation is that saying "no" is rude in a customer service situation, which is far beyond the expectations of most of the world. This is particularly tricky when the answer is actually "no". If you're used to American customer service, you may find European customer service to be blunt or curt, and many people would perceive that as rude even though it is not intended that way. Again, if they aren't trying to win every customer, this isn't really a problem.
      • lxgr 2y ago
        "Try again, and this time provide real data" would be considered very rude even in Germany.
        • Filligree 2y ago
          Well, we haven't seen the data.
• mtmail 2y ago
  I was customer for 10 years, but for business I needed a second account. Banned immediately even after I submitted a passport copy. Worked after contacting their support. Still happy customer (with both accounts). I think they're just very strict and get their (un)fair share of stolen credit card or stolen identity signups.
  • dumbledoren 2y ago
    Hetzner values its old customers a LOT for some reason...
• rtpg 2y ago
  I mean your transaction probably got flagged as fraudulent (like if your postal code didn't match your card), it's not that mysterious. I think most online operators that have "spend $3 with us" tiers have to be super vigilant about card transactions, and when you fall into the cracks you're a bit SOL.
  • o11c 2y ago
    It's been ages, but once I got something cancelled due to a site not properly distinguishing between shipping address and card billing address.
• isodev 2y ago
  I'm not sure what was your concern - Hetzner is obliged by law to make sure their signing up a real person or a company and that their servers are not used for malicious intent.
  • cameronh90 2y ago
    It's pretty obvious what the concern is, no? Hetzner's process seems to be blocking real people with no malicious intent (myself included) from creating accounts, even when we try to provide proof. Obviously this means we end up using a different provider instead. Though in my experience attempting to do business in Germany, this kind of forbidden-by-default perspective is quite common there, so they probably don't see it as a concern, I guess.
    • zarzavat 2y ago
      Yes, Germany is an extremely low-trust society masquerading as a high-trust society. Herzner get flack because they are probably the only German entity that the average HN user has dealings with. Anyone who has had exposure to German bureaucracy will recognise the hostility.
      • woodson 2y ago
        The strange thing is that the same thing is happening in the US. A story of someone’s Google, PayPal, Instagram etc account getting banned for no reason gets posted every day. Customer service means posting on social media and hoping it gets enough traction. Hell, I can’t even buy anything at Walmart online because they cancel every order because of suspicious activity, even though I ordered there before with the same payment method and address. I think a lot of people have a strong sense of entitlement and blame things such as this on the foreignness of the entity (in this case Hetzner).
    • isodev 2y ago
      A credit card is “low trust” confirmation of identity. Usually for this kind of services, you also have to submit your ID for verification. Perhaps you’re based in a country where this is not possible so they didn’t ask upfront? Either way, it’s their process so you’re of course welcome to go elsewhere if you want. I don’t see it as a “bad thing” for companies to require some level of trust.
• n144q 2y ago
  Had exactly the same experience. I even provided my real drivers license -- something I normally would never do. Didn't convince them I am a real human being that matches what's on the ID. I never understood why people think so highly of Hetzner.
  • ihateolives 2y ago
    > real drivers licence Drivers licence as a personal ID is not really a thing in Europe. It's accepted at some places, but either passport or your state provided ID-card is much preferred.
    • jeroenhd 2y ago
      Very few Americans have personal ID so if they intend to do business in America, they should be prepared to accept drivers licenses. Maybe they just don't want to sell to Americans, which is always allowed I guess, but setting up an American VPS provider and not accepting the standard American KYC verification methods would be a rather incompetent way of doing business. It'd be no different from doing business in Europe and only accepting drivers licenses and not accepting passports/ID cards for identity verification.
    • n144q 2y ago
      In the US, DL works as an ID for almost anything other than voting in an election. You can fly to almost any US territory with that plastic card. And it is state-provided ID -- nobody questions that. And we are talking about 300M people here, which is about 4 times the population for Germany. If they hate US residents they should declare that clearly on their website, not wasting customers' (and their own) time.
      • Timon3 2y ago
        But you don't just have one type of drivers license for 300M people, do you? As far as I'm aware each state has their own. So it's not 300M vs. 80M, but 80M vs. 50x 6M people (incredibly simplified and wrong numbers, but you get the gist). Far more effort to verify each document. That would still exclude non-driving customers, which means allowing at least one additional form of ID per state - suddenly you have to support at least 100 IDs for US customers, while German customers have exactly 1. Not sure how you arrive at them "hating US residents", that's a weird conclusion to get to.
• wooque 2y ago
  They are still in business because 99.99% of customers are not affected by this. I'm happy customer for years and will be even with these changes.
• jweir 2y ago
  OTOH there is Azure where a very sophisticated Twillio phishing service was hosted. When reported to abuse Microsoft replied they were a valid customer. A week later it finally came down.
• that_guy_iain 2y ago
  Because they're so cheap they have to worry about spammers and other sorts of abuse. It's more cost effective for them to refuse dodgy-looking accounts. The big question is, were you using real information or did you put in fake info? They're still in business because they're cheap and pretty reliable. But being cheap means there are things you can't get with them but can with others. For example, you can't pre-pay for the entire year ahead of time.
  • NicoHarms 2y ago
    You can actually pre-pay them. Under the transactions section in your account, it says: “If you make advance payments by bank transfer to our bank account, the amount will be posted as a credit on your account. We will automatically deduct this credit on your account when we process future invoices.”
    • that_guy_iain 2y ago
      They must have changed that. I remember reading on their site at some point that they didn't accept that.
    • n144q 2y ago
      In order to pre-pay, you need to have an account first. Many people didn't even get to the point where they can log in.
• lars_francke 2y ago
  Because they provide good service to most customers. Your case is unfortunate, and I totally understand why you'd be taking you business elsewhere, but probably an outlier. Otherwise, we'd need to ask the same about AWS et. al. as we've definitely seen more than enough wrong account closure complaints on here.
• chmod775 2y ago
  > I don't know how they're still in business. They're growing year after year, so clearly they're doing something right.
• 9cb14c1ec0 2y ago
  You also don't know the strain brought by continual streams of fraud that their support has to deal with, all for being a relatively cheap option.
• andix 2y ago
  Did you sign up as a private individual or was it a company account? I think they are extremely strict with private accounts, especially outside of EU. Most individuals only get a few resources for a few bucks per month, which probably isn't worth the business at all. I know a few people who use Hetzner, smaller EU registered companies, zero issues. Also extending limits is just one click and gets approved after a few minutes. And I totally get why they have to be strict. Blocked IPs are becoming an epidemic, I stopped using Digital Ocean, because I always got bad IPs, that were blocked everywhere. Also Hetzner is suffering from that. People are renting servers for little money and do bad things with the 20 TB traffic they get.
• Sebguer 2y ago
  Were you using your real information when you signed up? Were you using a disposable / privacy-first credit card? Did you try to obscure your name or register from a VPN? You're very upset at them accusing you of abuse or fraud, but you haven't actually made it clear whether any of the signals you provided them when signing up were aligned with what they'd usually see from abusive or fraudulent users.
• linsomniac 2y ago
  This was between 2000-2010, but when I ran a linux consulting+hosting business our "provision a VPS with a credit card" was where we experienced the largest amount of fraud, by probably 100x. Certainly well over 10x. Might be why Hetzner was touchy?
• mattl 2y ago
  Were you on a VPN or Tor at the time?
• tomr75 2y ago
  OVH did the same thing to me...
• mort96 2y ago
  You're leaving out a crucial detail: did they just assume your real information was incorrect because the name is unusual or something, or did you actually provide incorrect information?
  • _lvbh 2y ago
    I've had the exact thing happen to me. Real information they deemed fake for whatever reason.
• dangoodmanUT 2y ago
  don't use a gmail account
• indulona 2y ago
  same. fuck 'em. they are not even that cheap to begin with. they used to be, not today.