4 ms·

Apple will now be treated like a bank

105 points by mgh2 2y ago

grues-dinner 2y ago
It's written like it's a strange thing: > role is normally limited to banks and financial services companies. Was anyone expecting a system that handles 6 trillion dollars a year to not fall under financial regulatory purview? Which I realise is not the actual thrust of the rule change (obviously they were already under some regs already), but it's just such an odd intro. Apple withdrawing Pay Later when it became clear they'd need to comply with lending regs is quite telling too. Presumably they were attempting to sneak in the back door and claim "it's tech not banking" and got told they're not above the law when the Truth in Lending Act was confirmed to cover the system.
- politelemon 2y ago
  > Was anyone expecting a system that handles 6 trillion dollars a year to not fall under financial regulatory purview? 9to5mac and Apple at the very least.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    I mean in that regard then Apple's legal department would have been extraordinarily derelict in their duties if this was a surprise.
walterbell 2y ago
Data and identity custodians become money custodians, and vice versa. U.S. CFPB requires that banks export personal data when authorized by consumers, laying the groundwork for commercial data vaults. Could a Personal Data Vault on Mac Mini be connected to Apple Private Cloud Compute (PCC) LLM? https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-finalizes-personal-financial-data-rights-rule-to-boost-competition-protect-privacy-and-give-families-more-choice-in-financial-services/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-final... > The rule requires financial institutions, credit card issuers, and other financial providers to unlock an individual’s personal financial data and transfer it to another provider at the consumer’s request for free.. Consumers will be able to access, or authorize a third party to access, data such as transaction information, account balance information, information needed to initiate payments, upcoming bill information, and basic account verification information. Financial providers must make this information available without charging fees. The rule moves the United States closer to having a competitive, safe, secure, and reliable “open banking” system. Will Facebook return to the digital currency business? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diem_(digital_currency) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diem_(digital_currency)
- Animats 2y ago
  > Will Facebook return to the digital currency business? Good question. Probably not, especially after this. If you handle other peoples' money, you have legal responsibilities. Facebook hates that.
Animats 2y ago
It's not about Apple. It's Apple, Google and Amazon, PayPal, Block, Venmo and Zelle.[1] Everybody with over 50,000,000 transactions annually gets CFPB oversight. Actual rule: [2] This doesn't really do much. It creates no consumer rights. It does give CFPB examiners the power to examine records and interview people. It means that numbers such as how many PayPal customers have complaints will be looked at. Bank examiners look at error rates, fraud losses, unresolved complaints, and such. The effect will probably be that some of the big players with weak customer service will have to get their act together. [1] https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-finalizes-rule-on-federal-oversight-of-popular-digital-payment-apps-to-protect-personal-data-reduce-fraud-and-stop-illegal-debanking/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-final... [2] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_final-rule_general-use-digital-consumer-payment-applications_2024-11.pdf https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_final-rul...
- justinclift 2y ago
  > The effect will probably be that some of the big players with weak customer service will have to get their act together. Heh, if PayPal ever gets rid of its reputation for dodgyness, and it also provides reasonable customer service, then it might because a decent option.
  - latexr 2y ago
    > if PayPal ever gets rid of its reputation for dodgyness First they’d have to stop doing dodgy things. But they just keep doing more. https://wasnever.cool/@schmutzie/113222747933501630 https://wasnever.cool/@schmutzie/113222747933501630
    - justinclift 2y ago
      Yeah, I don't personally reckon it's going to happen any time soon either.
- pdpi 2y ago
  > Everybody with over 50,000,000 transactions annually gets CFPB oversight. This is such a simple, straightforward rule. No weird gotchas, exceptions, or whatever. Just the most basic test you can think of for "are you acting as a financial institution in the most obvious day-to-day sense of the term?" and a reasonably sane (I think?) threshold. It's also so bloody easy to prepare for. Are you handling 1M transactions anually? No worries, keep doing your thing. Are you handling 20M transactions annually? You probably want to start planning. 40M p.a.? You want to be preempt the moment when you get regulated.
jajko 2y ago
I work at a bank (not US one though). Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to, it keeps hefty dedicated departments alive and well across whole industry.
- palata 2y ago
  > Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to, it keeps hefty dedicated departments alive Isn't it the whole game? New regulations try to prevent banks from abusing, and in return banks try to abuse the new regulations? Banks wouldn't do it if it wasn't profitable, right?
- pyrale 2y ago
  > Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to Banks would have less regulation if they handn't fucked, quite litterally, the entire world less than 15 years ago.
yieldcrv 2y ago
If I was a betting man, which I am, I wouldnt draw attention to myself if I was the CFPB
- bell-cot 2y ago
  Perhaps. OTOH, I've seen a number of stories about some Republican politicians noticing that they're now the party of the "ordinary working people", and trying to play that part.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    Good point, I don’t really see it. Appointment confirmed by the Senate can do whatever they want, and I don’t see Congress voting as any less than a full party bloc given the razer thin majorities and inability to pass the filibuster
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  Do you mean Apple? Your comment is unclear as-is.
  - yieldcrv 2y ago
    The CFPB shouldn’t expand regulatory oversight of a large player that doesn’t want additional regulatory oversight because this is an unfavorable political environment for the CFPB’s continued existence unilaterally covering someone that could challenge the authority just accelerates the outcome
bsaul 2y ago
A friend of mine , 15 years ago (ios 3), already predicted that the only reason why apple would stash that amount of cash was if they planned on turning into a bank. Hats off to you, my friend !
- ozim 2y ago
  It seems like they did not plan turning into a bank because that would be introducing annoying regulations - but the regulators turned them into a bank.
- BiteCode_dev 2y ago
  I said the same thing, and I'm going to do one more prediction: the banking business will become more and more profitable with very low risk to the point it will take more and more space in Apple's culture. Also, regulations and the hiring market mean they will have to hire more and more profiles than you typically find in finance. With Jobs dead and an aging Cook that can't willpower himself into everything anymore, nothing will cancel this effect. Eventually, this will lower Apple taste for innovation and the product quality will go down until they become another average player cashing in on the inertia of its past success. They will be super profitable, but nobody will look up to them anymore.
  - andrepd 2y ago
    The financial sector is so absurdly profitable that it makes sense for big companies with a lot of cash to just invest in financial markets rather than actually do things (esp. considering taxpayers will bail you out on tail events, so don't you care about risk!). Famously GM in 2008 had virtually become a financial services company which made cars on the side. Just another sign that all is not well with the state of things.
    - arethuza 2y ago
      I've heard descriptions of large housebuilders in the UK that sound similar - actually building houses is difficult and tricky because you have to actually keep end customers reasonably happy whereas much easier to just treat the land you own in "land banks" as speculative assets and base your business mainly around trading those.
metalman 2y ago
Money is a human construct, and like its cousin the easter bunny, conforms to an arbitrary set of rules, and valuable things are created outbof thin air. Dont beleave me, well then, next spring, walk thee down to a bustling day care center and seek the sage advice of one of the owl eyed littles , who should they discover your lack of understanding, will, should they see your need, fill you in on the phenominon of the easter bunny. In fact the whole banking industry should be listened too, as if it has a soft pallet, and while earnest, isn't ready to be in charge of anything.
CodeCompost 2y ago
Apple will now be treated like a bank As in ... to big to fail?
- Andrex 2y ago
  If anything, Apple will be bailing the Fed out.
Traubenfuchs 2y ago
I am surprised by all those "you are not above the law and you can not do what you want" rulings lately, e.g. USA wanting to separate Google and Chrome. Everyone always says lobbyists and corruption rule the US and only the EU puts up a little fight against big tech (e.g. GDPR) but here are refreshing counter examples.
- smallerfish 2y ago
  It doesn't take very much observation of the US political system to realize that one party is generally quite good at government (although sadly is much worse at politics), while the other tends to have a higher rate of corruption and generally wants to reduce regulatory power to a minimum to benefit the corporate sector.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
venantius 2y ago
As someone who runs an actual bank, the headlines around this story are super misleading. In no meaningful way will be Apple be treated like a bank in the way that we generally expect banks to be treated.
- christophilus 2y ago
  Yeah. The headline had me thinking of cash reserves, fractional lending constraints, etc.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
impish9208 2y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42203655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42203655
zzz999 2y ago
[dead]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

105 points by mgh2 2y ago

It's written like it's a strange thing: > role is normally limited to banks and financial services companies. Was anyone expecting a system that handles 6 trillion dollars a year to not fall under financial regulatory purview? Which I realise is not the actual thrust of the rule change (obviously they were already under some regs already), but it's just such an odd intro. Apple withdrawing Pay Later when it became clear they'd need to comply with lending regs is quite telling too. Presumably they were attempting to sneak in the back door and claim "it's tech not banking" and got told they're not above the law when the Truth in Lending Act was confirmed to cover the system.

politelemon 2y ago
> Was anyone expecting a system that handles 6 trillion dollars a year to not fall under financial regulatory purview? 9to5mac and Apple at the very least.
- XorNot 2y ago
  I mean in that regard then Apple's legal department would have been extraordinarily derelict in their duties if this was a surprise.

walterbell 2y ago

Data and identity custodians become money custodians, and vice versa. U.S. CFPB requires that banks export personal data when authorized by consumers, laying the groundwork for commercial data vaults. Could a Personal Data Vault on Mac Mini be connected to Apple Private Cloud Compute (PCC) LLM? https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-finalizes-personal-financial-data-rights-rule-to-boost-competition-protect-privacy-and-give-families-more-choice-in-financial-services/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-final... > The rule requires financial institutions, credit card issuers, and other financial providers to unlock an individual’s personal financial data and transfer it to another provider at the consumer’s request for free.. Consumers will be able to access, or authorize a third party to access, data such as transaction information, account balance information, information needed to initiate payments, upcoming bill information, and basic account verification information. Financial providers must make this information available without charging fees. The rule moves the United States closer to having a competitive, safe, secure, and reliable “open banking” system. Will Facebook return to the digital currency business? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diem_(digital_currency) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diem_(digital_currency)

Animats 2y ago
> Will Facebook return to the digital currency business? Good question. Probably not, especially after this. If you handle other peoples' money, you have legal responsibilities. Facebook hates that.

Animats 2y ago

It's not about Apple. It's Apple, Google and Amazon, PayPal, Block, Venmo and Zelle.[1] Everybody with over 50,000,000 transactions annually gets CFPB oversight. Actual rule: [2] This doesn't really do much. It creates no consumer rights. It does give CFPB examiners the power to examine records and interview people. It means that numbers such as how many PayPal customers have complaints will be looked at. Bank examiners look at error rates, fraud losses, unresolved complaints, and such. The effect will probably be that some of the big players with weak customer service will have to get their act together. [1] https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-finalizes-rule-on-federal-oversight-of-popular-digital-payment-apps-to-protect-personal-data-reduce-fraud-and-stop-illegal-debanking/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-final... [2] https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_final-rule_general-use-digital-consumer-payment-applications_2024-11.pdf https://files.consumerfinance.gov/f/documents/cfpb_final-rul...

justinclift 2y ago
> The effect will probably be that some of the big players with weak customer service will have to get their act together. Heh, if PayPal ever gets rid of its reputation for dodgyness, and it also provides reasonable customer service, then it might because a decent option.
- latexr 2y ago
  > if PayPal ever gets rid of its reputation for dodgyness First they’d have to stop doing dodgy things. But they just keep doing more. https://wasnever.cool/@schmutzie/113222747933501630 https://wasnever.cool/@schmutzie/113222747933501630
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Yeah, I don't personally reckon it's going to happen any time soon either.
pdpi 2y ago
> Everybody with over 50,000,000 transactions annually gets CFPB oversight. This is such a simple, straightforward rule. No weird gotchas, exceptions, or whatever. Just the most basic test you can think of for "are you acting as a financial institution in the most obvious day-to-day sense of the term?" and a reasonably sane (I think?) threshold. It's also so bloody easy to prepare for. Are you handling 1M transactions anually? No worries, keep doing your thing. Are you handling 20M transactions annually? You probably want to start planning. 40M p.a.? You want to be preempt the moment when you get regulated.

jajko 2y ago

I work at a bank (not US one though). Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to, it keeps hefty dedicated departments alive and well across whole industry.

palata 2y ago
> Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to, it keeps hefty dedicated departments alive Isn't it the whole game? New regulations try to prevent banks from abusing, and in return banks try to abuse the new regulations? Banks wouldn't do it if it wasn't profitable, right?
pyrale 2y ago
> Good luck with little everchanging regulation hell all banks are continuously exposed to Banks would have less regulation if they handn't fucked, quite litterally, the entire world less than 15 years ago.

yieldcrv 2y ago

If I was a betting man, which I am, I wouldnt draw attention to myself if I was the CFPB

bell-cot 2y ago
Perhaps. OTOH, I've seen a number of stories about some Republican politicians noticing that they're now the party of the "ordinary working people", and trying to play that part.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  Good point, I don’t really see it. Appointment confirmed by the Senate can do whatever they want, and I don’t see Congress voting as any less than a full party bloc given the razer thin majorities and inability to pass the filibuster
HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
Do you mean Apple? Your comment is unclear as-is.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  The CFPB shouldn’t expand regulatory oversight of a large player that doesn’t want additional regulatory oversight because this is an unfavorable political environment for the CFPB’s continued existence unilaterally covering someone that could challenge the authority just accelerates the outcome

bsaul 2y ago

A friend of mine , 15 years ago (ios 3), already predicted that the only reason why apple would stash that amount of cash was if they planned on turning into a bank. Hats off to you, my friend !

ozim 2y ago
It seems like they did not plan turning into a bank because that would be introducing annoying regulations - but the regulators turned them into a bank.
BiteCode_dev 2y ago
I said the same thing, and I'm going to do one more prediction: the banking business will become more and more profitable with very low risk to the point it will take more and more space in Apple's culture. Also, regulations and the hiring market mean they will have to hire more and more profiles than you typically find in finance. With Jobs dead and an aging Cook that can't willpower himself into everything anymore, nothing will cancel this effect. Eventually, this will lower Apple taste for innovation and the product quality will go down until they become another average player cashing in on the inertia of its past success. They will be super profitable, but nobody will look up to them anymore.
- andrepd 2y ago
  The financial sector is so absurdly profitable that it makes sense for big companies with a lot of cash to just invest in financial markets rather than actually do things (esp. considering taxpayers will bail you out on tail events, so don't you care about risk!). Famously GM in 2008 had virtually become a financial services company which made cars on the side. Just another sign that all is not well with the state of things.
  - arethuza 2y ago
    I've heard descriptions of large housebuilders in the UK that sound similar - actually building houses is difficult and tricky because you have to actually keep end customers reasonably happy whereas much easier to just treat the land you own in "land banks" as speculative assets and base your business mainly around trading those.

metalman 2y ago

Money is a human construct, and like its cousin the easter bunny, conforms to an arbitrary set of rules, and valuable things are created outbof thin air. Dont beleave me, well then, next spring, walk thee down to a bustling day care center and seek the sage advice of one of the owl eyed littles , who should they discover your lack of understanding, will, should they see your need, fill you in on the phenominon of the easter bunny. In fact the whole banking industry should be listened too, as if it has a soft pallet, and while earnest, isn't ready to be in charge of anything.

CodeCompost 2y ago

Apple will now be treated like a bank As in ... to big to fail?

Andrex 2y ago
If anything, Apple will be bailing the Fed out.

Traubenfuchs 2y ago

I am surprised by all those "you are not above the law and you can not do what you want" rulings lately, e.g. USA wanting to separate Google and Chrome. Everyone always says lobbyists and corruption rule the US and only the EU puts up a little fight against big tech (e.g. GDPR) but here are refreshing counter examples.

smallerfish 2y ago
It doesn't take very much observation of the US political system to realize that one party is generally quite good at government (although sadly is much worse at politics), while the other tends to have a higher rate of corruption and generally wants to reduce regulatory power to a minimum to benefit the corporate sector.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

venantius 2y ago

As someone who runs an actual bank, the headlines around this story are super misleading. In no meaningful way will be Apple be treated like a bank in the way that we generally expect banks to be treated.

christophilus 2y ago
Yeah. The headline had me thinking of cash reserves, fractional lending constraints, etc.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

impish9208 2y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42203655 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42203655

zzz999 2y ago

[dead]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]