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I have to put out a ghost job req and interview every person applying within reason for every green card a direct report is applying for. I have to show there a
by shmatt 2y ago
I have to put out a ghost job req and interview every person applying within reason for every green card a direct report is applying for. I have to show there are or aren’t any residents or citizens that can fill the job
The main problem is: even if the interviewee knocks it out of the park, is an amazing engineer, I still am not interested in firing my OPT/h1b team member who can still legally work for 2-3 years. So while I will deny their green card application and not submit it, I also won’t hire the interviewee
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- cryo28 2y agoSo, you are effectively committing fraud!
- willsmith72 2y agoI was always wondered who audits this. Why should you even deny the green card?
- shmatt 2y agoYou have to prove you tried interviewing and couldn’t find anyone to replace them. My company isn’t a super popular employer so we don’t get the best candidates. This might be a bigger problem at Google, Meta, etc
- ludicrousdispla 2y agoI can't imagine why they're not a super popular employer.
- falseprofit 2y agoMaybe if someone is “amazing” you should get them a green card.
- shmatt 2y agoIn this example the amazing engineer is a citizen or permanent resident already If my superiors would give me extra unexpected budget I’d be happy to. But if I find a citizen that is just as good as my opt employee, my only path forward is to either fire the opt or let them continue on the team but not submit their GC application (because I have to swear I couldn’t find a citizen that is just as good)
- flatline 2y ago…because if you grant them the green card they will up and get a new job? The incentives here are so screwed up for everyone, it effectively codifies a caste system of immigrant workers.
- School-Cotton 2y agoNo, you're missing the point. To extend the visa they have to swear they couldn't find a citizen to do this job, and aren't willing to lie.
- pickledish 2y ago(this clarified the situation for me, thank you)
- lazide 2y agoCaste systems are extremely convenient.
- alwa 2y agoI took the implication to be that GP already had a good employee who was hired legitimately under the terms of the H1B, but that, to convert to a green card, you have to see whether a US person could do the job. So you have to put out for interviews to see, but you don’t have to act on that information. If the interview process yields a US person equally qualified, GP can’t (and doesn’t) certify the guest worker’s green card application. But that doesn’t mean they have to fire them and send them home early: they can let the guest worker work out their contract if they want to (which they probably do, it probably pays well compared to other options). And an experienced, already-trained, good employee is probably more valuable to the business than an immediate, unplanned new hire anyway. So yes, certainly screwed up incentives—but I don’t see how it would be better to require guest workers to put their jobs in immediate jeopardy just to apply for permanent residency.
- moomin 2y agoI think you've managed to explain why H1Bs shouldn't exist pretty convincingly.
- e40 2y agoI agree. I did hire someone on an H1B in the early 2010's and he was, to put it mildly, the perfect candidate for the job and I don't think I could have found anyone anywhere to do it. Someone else at the company was hired, into sales, and they were pretty good for the job (a Japanese person to service the Japanese market), but you could argue that citizen speakers of Japanese do exist and should have been given priority. I would be happy if the H1B program was killed.
- wing-_-nuts 2y agoMy one hope for the next administration is that they crack down hard on this sort of thing and pursue comprehensive immigration reform. A company that relies on labor from people who don't even have permanent residency rights probably shouldn't exist, and yes, I'm including agriculture in that statement. We should have a points based system like Canada with some carve outs for lower skilled ag workers.
- red-iron-pine 2y agolol you think immigration is a real concern? remember the convoy, or the W Bush era? half of US farms, meat packing, restaurants, construction, etc. rely on undocumented labor. the GOP owned the house and Senate for years, and could have crushed it well before now. they don't because a lot of big business want these illegals, and the same folks backing the new administration -- aka tech bros like Musk and Thiel -- are totally down with H1Bs
- moomin 2y agoThe thing with H1Bs is you can be against them whether you’re bothered about immigration or not. Pity it wasn’t on the ballot.
- ndiddy 2y agoI'm glad our government has introduced the H1B program to help out employers like you who are dealing with a shortage of tech workers (who will work for 2/3 market and will do anything you say because if they get fired they'll be deported).
- hombre_fatal 2y agoFwiw they're probably just making a point to protest the phenomenon.
- bluGill 2y agoH1b should be a bid salery to play not first to apply. That is we will allow x of them, when you sponser someone you commit to paying them some salary for the full term - no layoffs (you get fire for cause but that is a legal thing they can take you to court for , and the courts can force you to give back pay if it wasn't a good cause) , you should know your budget can afford them. , someone who really is the best , offer them a million dollars to be sure they get in , just a warm body , if they don't get in who cares. There are ways to abuse the above, but note they can always quit.
- para_parolu 2y agoThis means small companies may not get good talent that value things besides salary (wfh, perks, fun project) and will have to compete with corporations for people who only cares about money. This may (or may not) impact startups
- indoordin0saur 2y agoWait, this isn't clear to me. Are the interviewees citizens? So you're interviewing citizens to prove that there aren't any who can fill your jobs but even when they clearly could fill the job you don't hire them? Seems like the requirement of proving "there are or aren’t any residents or citizens that can fill the job" is going to be near impossible for the government to enforce
- lukevp 2y agoHence why there are so many h1bs.
- cj 2y agoAt the last startup I worked at, our CTO was on a visa. To satisfy the "no one in the US can fill the CTO role", they took out an advertisement in a San Francisco newspaper classifieds so they had evidence that they attempted to find a US citizen / permanent resident CTO. Obviously there were no applicants.
- dec0dedab0de 2y agoCTO actually makes sense for an h1b though, it’s a high paying job that can depend greatly on the technical and creative skills of the individual and how they mesh with the company. The problem is when it’s someone pumping out code, or doing tech support for half the cost of the local competition.
- bluefirebrand 2y agoNo, this is backwards CTO is not such an exceptional role that you can convince me that a company couldn't find a single person in America who would be qualified to take it It's also a highly sought after role, so people would generally be willing to relocate for a role like that H1Bs are designed to fill labour shortages, where your local labour market is saturated and you are struggling to find local talent or attract talent from further away, so you can import workers Using a visa designed to fill labour shortages for an executive position like CTO is frankly an abuse of the system
- xyst 2y agoThis isn't ethical. It shouldn't be legal. But it is. Welcome to America.
- echoangle 2y ago> It shouldn't be legal. But it is. How is that legal? If you think the local applicant can do the job, you legally can’t hire the H-1B over them, right?
- fjni 2y agoOP already hired H-1B in the past and that person is working for them now. OP is now in the process of doing a green card application for said employee. They can't move forward with the GC application because there are other qualified citizens/residents, but they don't have to fire the existing H1B employee. That's how I understand OP, if that's legally true or not, I don't know.
- morpheuskafka 2y agoYou're correct that they are under no obligation to fire the employee on the H-1B. (In theory, they are applying for a "new" job, and them not getting it for whatever the reason isn't an issue for their current job and status.) However, what OP is missing is that rejecting the US citizen application based on their citizenship is still likely a prohibited discrimination case regardless of what they do with the existing employee.
- niemandhier 2y agoThis will than probably change with the new American government and its anti-immigration stance. Less h1b, less ghost jobs.
- gostsamo 2y agoNot likely. The new government is not interested in harming the interests of the big employers.
- paxys 2y agoJust like how the last Trump government fixed it?
- coding123 2y agoHouse and Senate this time baby!
- Glide 2y agoJust like last time!
- Loudergood 2y agoSame as last time.
- mithametacs 2y agoOne can hope for a silver lining.
- zjdixhxjzkz 2y agoTrumps has talked multiple times about “stapling green cards to diplomas”. His rhetoric on illegal immigration is going to result in illegals who have committed a felony being deported and that’s it (just like every other neocon). Making America better for Americans won’t happen until both sides realize neither party is looking out for the interests of American people and uses social issues etc to keep us divided.
- stefan_ 2y agoSo you are simultaneously screwing over the ones applying to the job, the government, the guy already working for you and yourself? Geez, it must be amazing in your department, a lose-lose-lose-lose
- actionfromafar 2y agoIsn't it lose-win-lose-lose? The government is requiring this.
- xvedejas 2y agoSo when interviewing, perhaps I should skip more places that say citizenship required on the req, to avoid wasting my time?
- cj 2y agoNo. Many (especially smaller) companies don't want to hire people who need visa sponsorship because it requires a decent amount of overhead. The company needs to have an immigration lawyer to prepare and submit paperwork, which many smaller companies don't want to bother with. FWIW it's illegal to require "US citizenship" in a job description. You can, however, say "eligible to work in the US". (The former would be discriminatory against non-citizen permanent residents). Although I'm also not a lawyer.
- kyawzazaw 2y agois it illegal to put that phrase? i don't think so. There are a lot of shops that includes that and they usually come with clearance needed.
- noodlesUK 2y agoThere are actually situations where U.S. citizenship can be a requirement, e.g., cleared jobs but there needs to be a really good reason like not being able to obtain clearances.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoSpaceX has been through the wringer on this one, so just copy & paste from their listing: To conform to U.S. Government export regulations, applicant must be a (i) U.S. citizen or national, (ii) U.S. lawful, permanent resident (aka green card holder), (iii) Refugee under 8 U.S.C. § 1157, or (iv) Asylee under 8 U.S.C. § 1158, or be eligible to obtain the required authorizations from the U.S. Department of State. Learn more about the ITAR here.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
- protonbob 2y agoSo basically you're wasting the interviewees time and breaking the law by admitting that you won't hire a citizen who would do the job just as well.
- stronglikedan 2y agoit's okay to break stupid laws as long as you don't get caught
- underlipton 2y agoBreak stupid laws/don't get caught | Civil disobedience/face consequences ------------------------------------|---------------------------------------- Don't break any laws/get SWATed. | "It's never okay to break any laws ever" ____ I feel like this model could be useful somehow.
- shmatt 2y agoThe law says I can’t submit the I-140 application, which I follow the law and I don’t submit it. As a people manager it’s a heartbreaking conversation to have - to tell a report their dream of staying beyond their visa is gone The law says every line manager needs to do their own industry pulse check every time an i-140 is submitted. And this is the only legal way to pulse check (advertise a ghost job). It would be much easier if the federal government did the pulse check one time for everyone and decided if engineers are or aren’t missing in the industry
- pixelatedindex 2y agoSo… the interviewee doesn’t get the job even though they knocked it out of the park, and the H1B doesn’t get their visa because the other interviewee did well. Basically nobody wins, and the H1B person is out of a job in 2-3 years?
- crdrost 2y agoYes, this is precisely what the comment thread is saying. Shmatt’s original post should shock you with its conclusion because everyone loses including shmatt.
- cjbgkagh 2y agoRage baiting?
- grugagag 2y agoDoesn’t appear so, the OP seems genuine
- ewhanley 2y agoI can’t tell if this is satire or actual comic book villain behavior. I guess not really villain behavior, but certainly gaming a clearly broken system
- morpheuskafka 2y agoAn understandable situation. But by admitting this, your company is admitting liability for citizenship discrimination (8 U.S.C. § 1324b). Even though you are not submitting a PERM and running into potential issues with fraud there, the underlying act of rejecting US citizen/LPR applicants is the same, so I don't see how this would be any different than, for example, the Apple case last year (https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25-million-landmark-agreement-apple-resolve-employment https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-secures-25...) with a $25M settlement. In the Apple case, the company did actually obtain PERMs for some of the positions, but they were only charged with discrimination against the un-hired applications, not anything to do with the the hiring/sponsoring of the foreign workers. Furthermore, the case did not even allege actual tossing out of US citizen resumes, but merely making the applications deliberately inconvenient to avoid actually receiving any unwanted "real" applications.
- underlipton 2y agoIs there someone who we could report this comment to? Get an investigation opened.
- morpheuskafka 2y agoIt would go to the Immigrant and Employee Rights Section, Civil Rights Division, USDOJ. I think they only take formal complaints from those who applied though (it is different from the regular EEOC process though--the government itself acts as the complainant). You could try just sending them an email.
- gmueckl 2y agoI don't think you interpret the Apple case correctly. They got fined for advertising PERM job postings differently from regular job openings, distorting the test in the view of the agency. That has nothing to do with the post you are responding to.
- MobiusHorizons 2y agoI am not a lawyer and don’t know the relevant laws or legal precedent, but what the OP is describing is very different that what Apple got in trouble for. > Specifically, the department’s investigation found that Apple did not advertise positions Apple sought to fill through the PERM program on its external job website, even though its standard practice was to post other job positions on this website. It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions. In some instances, Apple did not consider certain applications for PERM positions from Apple employees if those applications were submitted electronically, as opposed to paper applications submitted through the mail. These less effective recruitment procedures nearly always resulted in few or no applications to PERM positions from applicants whose permission to work does not expire.
- pickledish 2y agoJust wanted to say thanks for sharing this, dude -- a lot of other replies are complaining (because this does suck for US citizens), but I imagine it also sucks for you, since (IIUC) you just want to keep your good developer and also not lie to the government. It's not fun to hear about but it's better it's said out loud, right. Sorry you're in this situation
- behringer 2y agoYou should probably stop breaking federal law.
- wetpaws 2y ago[dead]
- coding123 2y agoSending this to Elon... And quoting to capture the illegal activity: '''shmatt 47 minutes ago | parent | context | flag | favorite | on: Why is it so hard to find a job now? Enter Ghost J... I have to put out a ghost job req and interview every person applying within reason for every green card a direct report is applying for. I have to show there are or aren’t any residents or citizens that can fill the job The main problem is: even if the interviewee knocks it out of the park, is an amazing engineer, I still am not interested in firing my OPT/h1b team member who can still legally work for 2-3 years. So while I will deny their green card application and not submit it, I also won’t hire the interviewee'''
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- morpheuskafka 2y ago> Sending this to Elon... Wasn't he recently accused of bending the rules quite a long way in the way to getting work permission for his first startup? I imagine he would probably agree that this is a flaw in the system, but sympathize with OP's way of "solving" it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- slackfan 2y agoWillingly admitting to fraud is a strong move.
- wetpaws 2y ago[dead]
- jmull 2y agoWhat makes it worth the extra trouble? I guess the "green cards" really work cheap?
- shmatt 2y agoWe interview without knowing sponsorship status. If someone requires sponsorship that happens after we decide they were the best interviewee I wish it wasn’t this way but in the vast majority of interviews, the sponsor required person is the best one
- JAlexoid 2y agoWell.... DUH! You're comparing the vast swathes of mediocre talent to the best from the rest of the world. Of course the top talent from elsewhere is going to beat the average talent from the US.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- toomuchtodo 2y agoFor those who come across this type of fraud, reporting is straightforward. You can report anonymously. https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-fraud/combating-fraud-and-abuse-in-the-h-1b-visa-program https://www.uscis.gov/scams-fraud-and-misconduct/report-frau... https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form https://www.uscis.gov/report-fraud/uscis-tip-form I would also report as securities fraud to the SEC, but that is a higher hill to climb. https://www.sec.gov/submit-tip-or-complaint/tips-complaints-resources/report-suspected-securities-fraud-or-wrongdoing https://www.sec.gov/submit-tip-or-complaint/tips-complaints-... (not calling OP out specifically, general guidance when you come across illegal labor practices)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- acedTrex 2y agoThis is just plain fraud
- actionfromafar 2y agoHe found another candidate which could do the job. This finding makes it a federal crime to recommand the current H1B employee for a green card.
- John_Cena 2y agoMy definition of fraud doesn't begin and end with what the current law says.
- gadders 2y agoThat sounds ethical. Good to hear that H1B programme isn't being abused.
- actionfromafar 2y agoHe found another candidate which could do the job. This finding makes it a federal crime to recommand the current H1B employee for a green card.
- gadders 2y agoI understand now. See above.
- dilyevsky 2y agoOmg 80% of comments in this thread are so confidently wrong it’s insane. Fyi tp is actually doing everything by the book
- gadders 2y agoYes, it's been better explained now. I guess this is a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game." although the question remains why they filled the role with an H1B candidate in the first place if they could find locals that could do the job. That piece is clearly unethical and done only for wage suppression.
- dilyevsky 2y agoMore like a case of “perhaps dont make judgements if your knowledge on the subject is aprox zero”. Again, same question as upthread - show me how prevailing wage is suppressing the market. The h1b could also been issued years ago like in 2021 for example
- gadders 2y agoHave you heard of "Supply and Demand"?
- jerrygenser 2y ago> So while I will deny their green card application and not submit it, I might be missing this in the thread. What is the reason that you deny their green card application and not submit?
- actionfromafar 2y agoHe found another candidate which could do the job. This finding makes it a federal crime to recommand the current H1B employee for a green card.
- burnt-resistor 2y agoSo you have zero integrity. Thanks for sharing.
- actionfromafar 2y agoNot a certain conclusion, they could just operating from a different set of values than yours, but adhering to those with integrety.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- the_real_cher 2y agoThe H1B system is so rife with corruption at every level and needs to be stopped.
- horns4lyfe 2y agoIf there are qualified citizens, why are hiring h1b?
- lupire 2y agoAre you claiming the government requires you to lie to applicants to the "ghost" job? Do you have evidence for that claim? How did you hire the H1-B in The first place if you have direct direct personal evidence that citizen labor is available?
- rcxdude 2y agoFrom the discussion in the rest of the thread, this test isn't required for hiring someone in a H1B in the first place, but it is required to upgrade it to a green card.