10 ms·
Standing desk might be as bad as sitting all day
- gnabgib 2y agoDiscussion (38 points, 25 days ago, 19 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41862258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41862258
- deadbabe 2y agoI find the healthiest thing to do is to work remote and move around your house doing errands while occasionally returning to your computer to type some thoughts on your mind and then return back to errands.
- readthenotes1 2y ago"work" remote:)
- shirpa 2y agoI know you're just messing around, but honestly I find I'm more work-productive doing this. The human mind is mobile and performs much better when you have some variety, movement, occasional relaxation. Obviously some people take advantage and don't really work, but I find that working 90-95% capacity and 5% walk around the house, BS with my wife, do some small chores etc. is a lot more productive than trying to work 100% and ending up stressed, overfocused, and burnt out.
- wiseowise 2y agoEverybody knows “real” work is having useless catch up and alignment meetings and chatting away for hours in the office.
- chrsw 2y agoWalking desk it is!
- ilrwbwrkhv 2y agoStephen Wolfram was always correct.
- SmellTheGlove 2y agoEspecially according to Stephen Wolfram!
- voisin 2y agoThe Uber FIGJAM (F*#% I’m Good, Just Ask Me)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- fragmede 2y agoThey're not as expensive or annoying to deal with as I thought, either, assuming you already have a standing desk with a motor.
- adsteel_ 2y agoMy last company a number of people had treadmills. The walker always looked like they were headed toward me on calls. Group Zooms became hilariously ominous as more people marched toward me in unison.
- Loughla 2y agoCan people really type quickly and accurately on a treadmill at their desk? I tried that last year, and saw the error rate in my documents explode.
- yamrzou 2y agoSome data points by @gwern and Jeremy Howard (@jph00): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18836337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18836337 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5140244 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5140244
- 0xEF 2y agoMaybe we need to, I dunno, rethink the way we work in general. Stop chasing silver bullets and admit that movement is medicine. Reading articles like this reminds me of the people I've watched exhaust every possible option for weight loss save for mindful eating and exercise.
- deprecative 2y agoButts in seats is a very poor way to get productivity. It is, however, management enforced. Management only pretends to care about productivity. Until managerial ideology shifts we'll never bother. I think countries beyond the US have a much better prospect of doing this.
- sneak 2y agoQuite the opposite. The US has the strongest startup culture in the world; new companies with new founders are definitionally the places where new concepts are first implemented and tried.
- wongogue 2y agoEurope might be better but the eastern hemisphere (India, China, Japan) is worse.
- safety1st 2y agoPeople need to stop expecting their employer to solve this problem, because they won't. They're not responsible for making you exercise. The most efficient way to incorporate exercise into your day is to make it part of your commute. Walking, biking, taking the train etc. - different modes are viable for different locations. If you choose a job where this is not possible, you're just going to have to make it up some other way - two hours per week in a gym goes farther than most people think if you spend that time well. In many cases at least one of these options is available to people but instead of taking it they whine that the job itself is too sedentary. I don't have a lot of sympathy, there are far worse jobs for the body than sitting in a chair (or standing stationary, your choice!) all day. If truly none of these options are available to you in your current job - find a new one if you value your health. So many people have chosen a job for the money or prestige and just ignored this element completely. Those are unhappy people on account of their own choice.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago> The researchers found no association between time spent standing and the risk of cardiovascular disease, suggesting standing desks and similar work postures might not be enough to stave off the health problems associated with sitting around. I always assumed it was also probably pretty good for my back and neck - I'd love to see a study on that.
- gedy 2y agoYeah moving to standing desk basically got rid of lower back pain. I didn't do it for the heart.
- charles_f 2y agoThe title is a bit misleading, "standing desks don't improve risks of cardiovascular disease" would have been better. I would wager it did nothing for my chances of getting cancer, skin moles, or being hit by a car either, yet that doesn't mean they are "as bad as sitting" I personally switched only for my posture, and it mostly fixed my issues with neck and back. I never thought it had any other benefits than that. Maybe burn a marginal few calories? So I wouldn't say they're as bad as sitting. At least for me, they're better
- wiseowise 2y ago> I personally switched only for my posture, and it mostly fixed my issues with neck and back You should invest in good chair and desk.
- nradov 2y agoObesity is a major risk factor for both cardiovascular disease and cancer. They are highly correlated.
- charles_f 2y agoI remember reading something that your baseline consumption when standing is 140 calories/h vs 120 when seating. Definitely too marginal to have any sort of impact on obesity.
- lukestevens 2y ago'The best posture is the next posture,' as they say.
- interludead 2y agoIt's all about keeping things moving and changing
- chaibiker 2y agoWorking on this to incorporate regular movement into focused work: https://www.movably.com/ https://www.movably.com/.
- CoastalCoder 2y agoOn the bright side, my standing desk is great as an adjustable desk. It's nice to be able to get the height just right.
- readthenotes1 2y agoI made a standing desk and pulled a bar chair in to sit or prop myself on as occasion suggested
- move-on-by 2y agoI had the same revelation with my standing desk. It’s the first desk I’ve ever had that is the proper height for me.
- interludead 2y agoIt’s nice to have that flexibility
- burnt-resistor 2y agoI have a bad tailbone/lower back and the ability to rotate between sitting, reclining, and standing is important or I can't work.
- loloquwowndueo 2y ago“ standing for long periods of time might not be much better than sitting after all” Well duh, if you trade one sedentary all-day posture for another sedentary all-day posture it’s not likely to be of much benefit. The point of standing desks is to vary posture during the day and being able to choose to stand or sit while continuing to work gives you one more way to achieve this. Mix with breaks and walks and it’s starting to look better than sitting on your ass all day anyway. I try to stand for calls/remote meetings, I have a couple every day and it adds up to about 1h of standing / shifting my weight around and helps me stay focused. But not overdoing it is key - on days where I have more than a couple of meetings I’ll totally be sitting for some of them.
- invalidname 2y agoExactly. I mostly sit. When I move the desk to a standing position it lets me walk around a bit while working. Press compile and then walk a bit back while thinking. It is a wonderful tool. Static standing all day is horrible, that isn't news.
- turbojet1321 2y agoI'm sure this is very variable person-to-person. I stand 98% of the time, not for any theoretical health reason, but because I find it far more comfortable. I have terrible posture when sitting and made little progress in trying to correct it. Switching to standing all-but eliminated my lower back pain and most of my neck pain. The only time I sit these days is if I'm extremely tired for some reason. I have been doing this for more than 10 years now though, and it took a while until it became easy.
- dagmx 2y agoYes, this, I stand during meetings and sit while working. It helps a ton.
- kyriakos 2y agoNot requiring camera on during calls proved very good for my health. During calls I get up and walk around the house. Bluetooth works quite well if you don't go too far. As a bonus I keep better concentration in the call than just sitting in front of the screens which are a source of distraction.
- proee 2y agoStanding all day will not help your VO2 max. You need to get your heart rate up.
- justinator 2y agoThankfully, working on your V02 max doesn't take all day!
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- vunderba 2y agoStudy argues that movement is better than a static position (standing or sitting). Shocker. What they're obviously missing is that when you're at a standing desk, the friction to engaging in some kind of movement is drastically decreased (unless you're talking about spinning). While I stand at my desk, I frequently find myself pacing, jogging in place, stretching, etc. I don't have to first GET UP OUT OF A CHAIR.
- a_e_k 2y agoCame here to say exactly this. I've noticed that when I'm standing at my desk, I'm much more likely to start walking around the room, go look out the window, or go pet the cat while thinking something through.
- crucialfelix 2y agoI stand, often on one leg with the other one laid on the desk with bent knee. Like a flamingo. I also take care to move constantly, flexing hips, squatting, twisting spine. It's desk yoga.
- IshKebab 2y agoAlso who spends the entire day standing at a standing desk? I think that's pretty rare.
- iLoveOncall 2y agoThey're not missing anything. Read the article instead of just the comments and you'll realize that all of this has been taken into account in the final results.
- cbovis 2y agoTried jogging in place when reading this. Desk would shake if I tried to use it and couldn't control peripherals. Even reading content was hard.
- tigrezno 2y agoI use voice-only chats to move around the room with my bluetooth headset
- luxuryballs 2y agoWhat I do is design everything while I’m up and about and on paper/whiteboard and then sit down just to code it out, it’s so much better, way better architectural outcomes when you start with sunshine and fresh air.
- BadHumans 2y agoI don't stand at my standing desk. I fidget more, I move more, I stretch more. When I'm in the office and seeing people at their standing desk, I don't see a single person who is just statically standing still all day.
- notepad0x90 2y agoMy idea to solve all this would be to change how computing is done. We don't talk about radical disruptive ideas enough these days. What if we don't have to interact with computers from a stationary position at all? VR headsets are one direction that might help with this, but in my view there is another way. Decouple peripherals and computing units fully. You'd carry around with you a battery unit that will charge display and input units, and it wouldn't be carrying but maybe put on a strap on your arm, shoulder, back,etc.. (very lightweight). I wish I could draw this out and show you, but you would be able to sit, move around, even run. You can hold a display unit, but you can also have cheap display units on walls all over the office, house,etc.. and you'd attach sensors to the back of your arm that would sense finger movements for typing and controlling the mouse and view port. Essentially, "monitors" would not be tied to one device, but whatever device is nearest to them, wirelessly. and 10-12" mobile monitors (like tablets but just the display,battery and wireless receiver board) that work in the same way would also be a thing. the actual computers would be in a static location. Imagine just sitting at a desk, or walking up to a wall, running on a treadmill, or taking a walk outside and you can still do the same exact task, just as if you were sitting down in front of a laptop. If it were that simple, someone would have done it, I get that. But we need to talk about ideas like this (I'm sure there are better ones).
- dmead 2y agoLol did you just invent a terminal from the 1970s, but a cell phone?
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y agoWe reinvent thin clients every few years; aren't we due for the latest take on it?
- notepad0x90 2y agowell, think of thin clients but much much thinner, like anorexic clients :) , also think of peripherals, display and audio i/o units being discrete thin clients on their own that network with each other and various compute units.
- throwawayq3423 2y agoYou don't actually stand all day. You rotate so you aren't sitting or standing too much. Do people really not understand that?
- chaibiker 2y agoThis study showed alternating sit-stand more often completely prevented pain during an extended work period in 100% of participants, compared to standing and a high end ergonomic chair: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003687023000820 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
- Xxfireman 2y agoI think it is obvious that staying stationary all day (standing vs. sitting) will be bad for cardiovascular health. I also don't think anyone believed standing would suddenly make working for 8+ hours a day in front of a computer screen healthy. However, with a standing desk and split keyboard (apple trackpad in the middle), I personally feel I can work with some semblance of decent posture. When I work sitting down, especially for long periods of time, my posture degrades (tech neck, etc.) When standing up with a split keyboard, at least my posture is linear and my shoulders are back. From the study, apparently the improved posture benefits do not carry over to cardiovascular health benefits, but I would guess it is still beneficial. Very rarely in the office do I see people sitting with good posture (It is possible, but takes more conscience effort), but I will often see people standing with good "upright" posture. tldr: Article mentions nothing about posture improvements. That is what I always thought improved the most moving from sitting to standing desks.
- hombre_fatal 2y agoStanding at a desk makes incidental movement possible, especially for someone like me who can't sit still much less stand still. I pace, use my pull-up bar, and use my dip bars when I'm working at my stand-up desk. I never did those things when forced to sit down even in my own home.
- anonu 2y agoThe article is a bit shortsighted as it seems to only measure the benefits of standing through cardiovascular risk outcomes. As someone with recent lower back issues - a musculoskeletal issue - I can tell you I would prefer to stand for most of the day.
- tbrownaw 2y agoIt's not being short-sighted, it's reporting on a study that measured specific cleanly measurable things. The goal isn't to be comprehensive, it's to precisely measure one thing.
- justinator 2y agoI really encourage everyone to find a physical activity they enjoy doing and do it almost every day. One of the best investments you can ever do for yourself. A standing desk just isn't enough on its own.
- peterb0yd 2y agoIt's best to do 10 squats every 45 minutes regardless of sitting or standing. https://x.com/foundmyfitness/status/1788991915633045809 https://x.com/foundmyfitness/status/1788991915633045809
- Qem 2y agoI wonder if after the standing desk fad now we'll have a squatting desk fad.
- rdtsc 2y agoI have an adjustable standing desk and I keep switching between standing and sitting. Then I try to find reasons to walk around to think, make tea, coffee (use a small cup so I have to get up more often). I was debating getting a treadmill of some sort but I think I am doing ok for now as I don’t stand much in one place anyway.
- JasonBorne 2y agoI thought this was commmon knowledge. We neither want to sit for too long or stand for too long. I've always been told this since i was a child.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoEarlier discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41862258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41862258
- tzs 2y agoHere's an article [1] from a few years ago from Cornell ergonomics researchers that is still relevant the discusses the pluses and minuses of both sitting and standing desks. Here is their recommendation: > Sit to do computer work. Sit using a height-adjustable, downward titling keyboard tray for the best work posture, then every 20 minutes stand for 8 minutes AND MOVE for 2 minutes. The absolute time isn’t critical but about every 20-30 minutes take a posture break and stand and move for a couple of minutes. Simply standing is insufficient. Movement is important to get blood circulation through the muscles. And movement is FREE! Research shows that you don’t need to do vigorous exercise (e.g. jumping jacks) to get the benefits, just walking around is sufficient. So build in a pattern of creating greater movement variety in the workplace (e.g. walk to a printer, water fountain, stand for a meeting, take the stairs, walk around the floor, park a bit further away from the building each day). [1] https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html https://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html
- taberiand 2y agoThat essentially reads to me as "you can't both be focused on computer work and be active enough to be healthy" Break my concentration EVERY 20-30 minutes to move around for at least 2 minutes? That's at least halving my productivity. It's a total non-starter. It's the sort of advice that everyone pays lip service to, but almost no one is actually able to follow.
- oldpersonintx 2y ago[dead]
- TomK32 2y agoI have yet to buy one, but a walking pad under my height-adjustable table should allow me to do all those thing at the same spot while I keep working.
- marviel 2y agoSome of my best ideas come during little stretch breaks, or while I'm pacing in front of my window waiting for water to boil for tea.
- novok 2y agoThe real blessing of standing desks is finally making your desk properly fit your body proportions while you're sitting. And treadmill walking during meetings.
- zabzonk 2y agoGo to the loo, coffee machine/water cooler, talk to someone in another part of the business, lunch, etc?
- nkrisc 2y agoBecause standing or sitting all day are both sedentary. Standing is closer to sitting than any kind of actual physical activity or movement.
- thread_id 2y agoGluteus medius tendonitis. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/no-joke-your-desk-job-promotes-dead-butt-syndrome https://health.clevelandclinic.org/no-joke-your-desk-job-pro...
- iamacyborg 2y agoI had that (from running). Easily fixed by doing a few weeks of gym work.
- satvikpendem 2y agoI read another comment recommending an underdesk stationary bike instead, it'll help you move more so you're not trading one sedentary activity for another. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42080255 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42080255
- terrycody 2y agoI tried stand-sit style for the past 2-3 years I guess, it indeed cured my back and hip pain, while I have to admit, it lowers your productivity when sitting, so a combine should be the final answer.
- _moof 2y agoThe whole thing is bad. We're chimpanzees chained to desks and they're trying to figure out if it's the chair that's killing us.
- otabdeveloper4 2y agoHumans are nothing like chimpanzees physiologically. Homo sapiens has a semi-aquatic mammal build.
- popcorncowboy 2y agoYou are technically correct, the best kind of correct. (Dear GP, congrats on eliciting the quintessential HN comment response).
- sshine 2y agoDual-classing as a desk-like build, however, you lose your vitality buffs.
- tbrownaw 2y agoI am not a desk.
- TaylorAlexander 2y agoNot with that attitude.
- blitzar 2y agoIt's the only way to get through phase 3 or the uber boss fight.
- nusl 2y agoPerhaps we should transition to in-office swimming pools with floating desks
- 2y ago
- otabdeveloper4 2y agoThere you have it, the science is settled: work is bad for you.
- joelthelion 2y agoThe sad thing is that we could reduce the work week to three or four days and be perfectly fine. Yet we're not doing it.
- interludead 2y agoAbsolutely. I think shorter work weeks not only support mental and physical health but actually boost productivity!
- joelthelion 2y agoAnd they would very likely be better for the environment.
- interludead 2y agoPlus, people might have more time to make eco-friendly lifestyle choices
- netdevnet 2y agoWe would be fine but rich people's investments would not grow as much or as fast
- michaelbarton 2y agoIf we’re not supposed to sit more than 10 hours a day, and not supposed to stand more than 2 hours then how are we supposed to spend the other 4 hours when we’re not sleeping? I can’t imagine being on a treadmill or exercise bike for than length of time
- TaylorAlexander 2y agoMoving?
- adrianN 2y agoHumans are probably meant to hunt, forage, or socialize for most of the day.
- michaelbarton 2y agototally agree - the article seems to imply that you shouldn't be sitting or standing while doing that for at least 4 hours
- adrianN 2y agoYou usually move around while doing those activities.
- blitzar 2y agoRunning, walking, climbing, pushing, pulling, carrying and shagging.
- baseline-shift 2y agoLying down is best. Comfy, relaxing, best for brain
- interludead 2y agoThis study's a reminder that it’s all about movement, not just the position we're in
- mannycalavera42 2y agoI feel great if I stand early morning, then just before lunch and finally late afternoon yeh, much like no-sciencealert.com ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- sfjailbird 2y ago... for cardiovascular disease. The benefits of standing, is for neck and back posture, I think most people agree. Standing all day sucks, it's no secret, anyone who works retail will tell you that.
- lynx23 2y agoSo, sort of motivated by reading that many other people seem to experiment with standing desks, I installed a standing terminal at home. Used it sporadically (so only an hour at a time or so) for a few months. Then, my right foot developed a very painful problem. Dragged that with me the whole winter. When I went to the doctor, they didn't find (suprise!) any cuases. Took me 8 months to recover my right foot totally. Lessons learned: Forget about the new trendy alternative craze, its likely just bullshit.
- chaibiker 2y agoWe are working on this and did a related study which included a group of participants more sensitive than average to standing and sure enough- more frequent posture changes from standing eliminated discomfort in 100% of participants. If curious: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003687023000820 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
- dmje 2y agoSurely the point is (has always been?) about movement? Doing one thing all day = bad; doing variable things which involve movement between and around them = better. Being actually active = good. No?
- christkv 2y agoIt’s like it always comes back to the same old rule. Everything in moderation. A bit of standing, sitting and moving around is good.
- ensocode 2y agoYeah, staying static all the time isn’t ideal. I decided to get an under-desk treadmill a few years ago, and after a bit of adjustment, it’s definitely manageable. Walking for 4 hours during the workday means 4 hours less spent sitting or standing still. The book Death by Sitting by Eric Soehngen also points out that simply standing doesn’t solve the issue, as it’s still a static posture.
- theshrike79 2y agoStanding all the time is bad, sitting all the time is bad. The best thing is to switch positions every now and then, put your standing desk in sitting mode and vice versa. If you're a proper hacker, automate it. Make your desk swap stances every 30 minutes whether you like it or not :D
- coremoff 2y agoI have a wobble board at my standing desk; keeps me moving constantly without distracting me.
- madsohm 2y agoI was always told that the best position is always the next position. It's like the Monty Hall problem, switching is always the better solution.
- cassianoleal 2y agoI move when I'm standing. I stretch my calves, my feet, my back... All of that pretty frequently. I move my legs, I shake my arms loose... Standing still might be about as bad as sitting but a standing desk has completely transformed how much movement I get whilst on the desk, allowing me to generally avoid breaks to stretch and move as those things happen naturally.
- krm01 2y agoStanding desk with threadmill was/is a winner for me. May not be a fit for everyone but I feel like the constant walking functions as a fidget toy for me. Huge boost in productivity, creativity and I’m getting my steps in. Good amount of water and electrolytes are also part of it.
- pjerem 2y agoEven cheaper and I like it a lot : a balance board [0]. It allows me to have my muscle to work even when I’m standing still. It’s in fact pretty pleasant. I also tried roller skates (detachable [1]) and it’s also pretty nice. More stable than the balance board but your legs are still more free than just standing. [0] I use this one : https://www.decathlon.fr/p/planche-d-equilibre-fitness-bois/_/R-p-143795?mc=8343000 https://www.decathlon.fr/p/planche-d-equilibre-fitness-bois/... [1] : https://www.flaneurz.com/us/s-quad-white.html https://www.flaneurz.com/us/s-quad-white.html
- Yaggo 2y agoI have worked as dev since age of 18, I am now 42. Never had any health problems. I do some irregular sports but not very much. I don’t pay much attention to ergonomics, I just simply change my sitting position often and also take short walks. I do use standing desk sometimes but not for whole day, just for short periods.
- try_again 2y agoCongratulations, you're a sensible human being who has figured out that listening to your body and intuition works much better than all these "optimal" solutions everyone is chasing after. I've suspected for a long time that much of ergonomics is just snake oil and hardly based on any evidence at all. If sitting upright or in some specific allegedly ergonomic position is making me feel tense and wears me out, how is that helpful? I prefer to go with what millions of years of evolution have coded in me. Fortunately I don't have a desk job anymore so it's not of much concern to me.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y agoI’ve been using a standing desk for the last decade, or so. I seldom sit down, to work. I no longer keep an office chair around (I’m retired, but actually spend more time coding, than I ever did, when working). Standing is still not as comfortable as sitting, but I got used to it. As I work, I move around a lot. Just happens naturally. If I am on a video call, I don’t move around much, and I really feel the difference. I have friends that work remote, and are basically on video calls, all day. I couldn’t stand that. I have an adjustable desk (hand-cranked), but never adjust it. I have heard that’s the pattern with these $5,000 “smart” electric desks. People go up and down for a month, then settle on a constant height (not always standing), and there it stays; forever.
- ozim 2y agoWell if we look at it as "standing all day" vs "sitting all day" maybe yeah doesn't make much difference. So having an option to switch position between sitting and standing during the day, like work standing for an hour then work sitting for next one is definetly still better than one or the other. Also while I work standing I do see I move much more like moving weight from one side to the other where while sitting I can just stay in one position for much longer.
- amai 2y agoThe standing desk solved by back pain issues. This is something the study didn't look into. They looked only for cardiovascular diseases. The ladder once are probably mainly caused by nutrition and sitting or standing won't do much difference. P.S.: Walking Desks are even better.
- belter 2y agoOne mile an hour: https://youtu.be/jYUZAF3ePFE?t=86 https://youtu.be/jYUZAF3ePFE?t=86
- bdcravens 2y agoI have a standing desk, but probably put in that mode maybe 5% of the time. The biggest improvement for me was getting an excellent chair. Due to preexisting health issues, I have very bad lower back pain. Can't really sleep for long or do much involving leaning over without pain. However, despite all the memes about extravagance, the Aeron lets me sit for hours without any issues. (standard chairs not so much)
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chaibiker 2y agoWe have been working on a better solution to this the last few years and have a good answer if extended desk work focus is integral to your work. The fundamental conflict is one of movement vs. focus (and health vs. career sadly), and we have found a way to introduce significant posture changes while doing work. https://www.movably.com/ https://www.movably.com/ We, also unlike basically every other chair company sadly, also put this to an independent research group. Our protocol was a simple sit-stand transition every 3 minutes, and the seems to be the first study to show a chair preventing pain without interrupting productivity. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003687023000820 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...
- a-saleh 2y agoI tought this is common knowledge. Sitting all day - bad. Standing all day, also bad. Like, first docummented RSI were people standing at their stations in manufacturing, right?