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The anti-immigration thing is because the great experiment of mass migration has failed to work for the average person, and the political left have failed to sh

The anti-immigration thing is because the great experiment of mass migration has failed to work for the average person, and the political left have failed to show up with an answer, a policy, a plan -- anything, really. People are voting for candidates who are at least willing to pay lip service to the issue. I don't know how bad it is in the US, but in the rest of the West, it's been a disaster. Overcrowded cities, erosion of quality of life, strained services, competition for housing, suppression of wages, the complete abandonment of on-the-job training, falling tertiary education standards, minority enclaves with values that are fundamentally incompatible with the West... The list goes on.

n4r9 2y ago
All the things you listed are a result of neoliberal austerity politics much more than they are a result of immigration.
- VagabundoP 2y ago
  Having better safety nets definitely helps people look outward rather than in. Pensions, social security, healthcare; once you have a feeling that you'll be taken care of if things go bad you can think about your neighbours a little more.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    This. The democrats shifted to the center instead of creating a campaign chasm on actual progressive issues that Americans would generally support like universal healthcare[0], student debt cancellation, housing subsidies, stronger pro labor policies (support for unions has grown across the aisle substantially) and generally fairer more equitable economic participation. That would have reached across the aisle and put Republicans on the defensive especially around messaging Instead, they went strong with wedge issues and tried to play culture wars. Which honestly I don’t disagree with the conclusions and policy positions democrats made here but it didn’t speak to economic fears or relief for the masses We did this to ourselves to a certain degree. All progressives have left now is molotovs in the streets [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-healthcare.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-...
    - matwood 2y ago
      I agree focusing on the culture issues was an incorrect move. But, union members seem to have gone largely pro-Trump even after he talked about firing anyone who went on strike and breaking them up with Musk. It's hard to understand.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  What austerity politics? The US is running a 6% deficit.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    OP was talking about "the rest of the West" so I was thinking more about the UK, where we've effectively had over a decade of austerity politics.
- jvmboi81 2y ago
  Where is the austerity? Does it have a knife?
okeuro49 2y ago
It's getting really noticeable across every western democracy. The far-left strategy seems to be clientele politics, and attempting to rule over the fractured result.
immibis 2y ago
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- jvmboi81 2y ago
  That's really a quite very unrefined view of Hitler's rise to power. If you really want to prevent Hitler then you have to prevent the end-stage of the Weimar Republic. So, you'd need a strong economy, rule of law, public order and a culture of decency and trust. What makes people yearn for autocratic rule isn't "blaming the jews" it's the everyday circumstances that arise when liberals are done running a place into the ground. Like California, at the moment.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >it's the everyday circumstances that arise when liberals are done running a place into the ground. Not just running the place into the ground, but also actively lecturing people how everything is fine and how it's their perception that is wrong. That's what really pisses people off and gets the to vote extremists as those tend to at least acknowledge some of the issues average people are facing or seeing. Average working class people don't like being lectured by upper class higher educated elitists off their high horse on how they're wrong.
    - bigfudge 2y ago
      This is idiotic. People who live in California just voted Harris. Their quality of life is fine. The irony is that it’s the redneck parts of the states that are suffering most from neoliberal austerity.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        I wasn't talking about California but in general.
      - bombcar 2y ago
        California has more Trump voters than a number of swing states combined.
cassepipe 2y ago
You would need to show up with data to back up those claims. I live in (around) a major city. Sure it's overcrowded but that has nothing to do with foreign immigration and everything to do about it being a economic powerhouse. Quality of life has been increasing since the city has invested/is investing in more transportation/bikeable lanes/better air pollution standards/less noise. Also laws that are forcing better insulation standards are a net quality of life both in terms of comfort and footing the bill. Even the people who really need to take their cars will benefit because there will less traffic jams on account of 1. people for whom it was mostly comfort leaving the road and 2. reduced speed means less unnecessary braking to get out and in the motorway around the city. Strained services seems to be because of budget tightening. It's a policy choice that has to do with ideology (don't fund a service when it could made profitable by outsourcing it) and trying to save on budgets because of a bad economy. Again you'd have to back up with data that it has something to do with immigration. I could on and on but basically what you are saying there was too much new people too fast but I don't think this is nowhere true in my western european country. The only thing that could worry is the minorities enclaves but it's not hard to break up a ghetto by opening it up sociogeographically and economically, you just need to the political will to do so but instead it's left in place and used as convenient fear-mongering tool for politicians.
- amarcheschi 2y ago
  If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what you say, I regret not having voted in my Italian city and now third places have been closed because not profitable
  - Jensson 2y ago
    Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
_yb2s 2y ago
This is simply the ancient political strategy of blaming our problems on groups of people that are different, and not actually taking responsibility to identify and fix the real causes. It is a formula as old as time for despots to seize power by fabricating an enemy that doesn’t exist from peoples prejudice and fear.
- ulbu 2y ago
  you can’t reduce ecological principles to just rhetoric. less resources, more requirements = more strain. the more resources to share, the less impact of the same shared unit, the easier it is to dispense to whoever. sharing resources with others with those who share other properties is more acceptable to most. but this propensity is generally reduced with more resources to share. humans band into groups in competition for resources when they are scarce. just as how people are getting triggered online more easily by displeasure, so they are triggered by the bad apples more than the invisible good ones. there’s more of good ones, but the larger their absolute number, the more resources are shared and the more bad apples there are, the more this sharing becomes problematic. the fewer shared properties there are, the less there is to dilute the bad-applehood. abstracting away from this into a symbolic ideal (equivalence via property of “humanhood” and equivalence via property of “need” determined via capacity of empathy and Christian virtue) does no one any good and is experienced as a result of effacement of shared histories (roots). the idea that real present (ie, ahistorical) causative elements are always only just social or imperialist is ideology.
  - oytis 2y ago
    Yet the voters don't want to deal with those who actually hoard these limited resources, and prefer to blame immigrants and other minorities
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
      Um.. because as UniverseHacker stated at the outset, that's a time tested method of gaining power. It works. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Trump is the new President isn't he?
anovikov 2y ago
But well, immigration has to only increase. Many of the problems of the West are due to insufficient immigration. And at the present time, we don't even care much about quality. We need just "bodies": whoever is willing to come, ideally those who are likely to have lots of children (although their birthrate falls dramatically once in). Because a generation down the road, those people will run out and countries will be competing hard to get ANYONE in.
- jvmboi81 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Huh? Who said anything about ethnically and culturally uniform? In the US I’ve never heard this narrative from major candidates or seen it in their policy proposals from the democrats Rhetoric is always about respecting the melting pot and letting cultural and ethnic differences co-exist under the great American experiment as it always has since its founding
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > Rhetoric is always about respecting the melting pot That is the uniform culture. You see it in tv shows everywhere, people looking the same in every show etc. (the 1 black, 1 white woman 1 white man 1 Hispanic 1 Asian group you see everywhere in American stuff) There used to be shows like Friends and Fresh Prince which means diversity, now everything is just the gruel of the melting pot.
      - no_wizard 2y ago
        The general melting pot of cultures goes back over a century in this country. It’s been a cornerstone of US idealism for a long time. It does rest that cultures will become homogeneous over time as they melt together but I take what is being asserted to be different from that, as in it’s promoting an artificial uniformity of culture rather a naturally blended one
bjourne 2y ago
How you figure immigration is the cause of all that? You might as well add hemorrhoids and back pains to your list.
- astrange 2y ago
  Immigration opponents just make up things so they can claim immigration caused it. The biggest tell is that they mention wage suppression, because they think it'll make them sound sympathetic - but there is absolutely zero evidence that immigration lowers any native wages, and theoretically you should expect it to increase them because of increased demand. (Conversely, when people move away this reduces demand and lowers your wages.) That and employment for prime aged (i.e. not retirement age) Americans is as high as it's ever been.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Immigration does have a net benefit to the economy, generally, but of course it tends to depress wages for anyone in sectors the immigrants are landing jobs in. Even NPR admits this, when they cover the topic. If this weren’t the case, there wouldn’t be a bunch of us wanting to loosen rules about foreign-trained doctors practicing in the US. Whether those sectors include most of the people worried that their wages will be suppressed, when who we’re talking about are illegal immigrants who mostly do stuff like chicken processing and house framing/roofing, is another matter. It’s weird that “we had a bipartisan bill to address specifically this thing you’re worried about, likely to pass and be signed into law, and Trump scuttled it so he could keep complaining about it” didn’t resonate. Frankly, if that’s too “technical” a message to be received, we really are fucked.
    - amarcheschi 2y ago
      A guy answered me in another comment where I was saying similar things about wages, and apparently it's not true, it's an interesting read (which I can't criticize or comment since I'm not knowledgeable in economics) https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...
arp242 2y ago
Everyone in Europe has been talking about it for decades and many parties on the left have nuanced views on it, and they're certainly not ignoring it. In the US, "the wall" Trump was banging on about in 2016 already existed. Deportations under Obama were higher than under Trump, and higher still under the Clinton administration. Secondly in many countries "the left" hasn't really been in power for a long time; often government are in the centre or centre-right.
emilfihlman 2y ago
You'll get a lot of hate for saying these things, but it's good you said them. People really need to face reality and that our society simply cannot sustain even limited immigration if those people end up as a negative for the state in terms of financials.
- astrange 2y ago
  The US doesn't give immigrants welfare, and they pay taxes, so that would be difficult.
  - tgma 2y ago
    False. Immigrants are eligible for various social benefits, food stamps, health care, etc.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Many recent US immigrants are asylum seekers. They do receive substantial government cash payments and free housing (i.e. welfare). I am generally pro immigration, but let's be clear about the cost. https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/refugees/programs-and-info/asylees https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/refugees/programs-and-...
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Let’s also not pretend that “free housing” is NOT a major transfer of wealth from the government to landlords. People would likely be less annoyed if the “free housing” was more akin to government owned military barracks instead of subsidized rent to private enterprise.
      - mrguyorama 2y ago
        Find me a republican voter that will sign off on the government building the new housing stock.
- benfortuna 2y ago
adrianN 2y ago
Where I live I have the impression that cities are overcrowded because that’s where the jobs are. I don’t think immigration is the main problem, but I don’t know the actual data.
cranberryturkey 2y ago
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- hellyeahbruder 2y ago
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- b3ing 2y ago
  I doubt that happens as it benefits the elites to pull down tech employee wages
bigfudge 2y ago
Immigration is not at a historic high in us or Europe. I think it’s a combination of regressive social policy and redistribution upwards plus moderately high immigration which leaves an opportunity for populist bigots to leverage anti immigration rhetoric in elections.
- piltdownman 2y ago
  What? 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021. The population of Ireland alone increased by 3.5% in 2023 - a 3.5 per cent increase in population in a given year being one of the highest ever for a single country in recorded history. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/06/10/european-commission-says-irish-population-rose-by-record-35-per-cent-last-year/ https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/06/10...
  - rxyz 2y ago
    Wasn't 2022 a huge outlier because of the war in Ukraine?
    - bigfudge 2y ago
      Yes
wowsonottrue 2y ago
Constant immigration is not sustainable. Especially when people come from cultures which are very different than the west. They have different value systems, religions, etc. There is also the problem of scale, imagine if all of India moved to Germany. What would happen? At some point the politicians will have to look at the issue.
- bottom999mottob 2y ago
  This is one of the worst over-generalizations. Cultures are not monolithic, static entities. How do we go from "different cultures" to "negative outcomes?" That's a complete non-sequiter. Imagine if all of Germany moved to India. What would happen? What if part of Britain moved to UK? At some point the politicians will have to look at the issue...
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    Here is how: > During the 2015–2016 celebrations of New Year's Eve in Germany, approximately 1,200 women were reported to have been sexually assaulted, especially in the city of Cologne. In many of the incidents, while these women were in public spaces, they were surrounded and assaulted by large groups of men who were identified by officials as Arab or North African men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_E...
    - bilbo0s 2y ago
      Slightly off topic, but what's the difference between North African and Arab? Are Egyptians, Algerians, Libyans etc not real Arabs? How are they classified technically speaking?
      - bombcar 2y ago
        Aren’t “Arabs” from the Arabic peninsula (sometimes including Israel and Turkey et al) and North Africans from … North Africa? They may be similar in many ways but they’re geographically distinct.
VagabundoP 2y ago
Migrants are how people are fed and how many esential jobs are filled. They aren't the problem, even illegal immigration are blips (although massive wars have put huge pressures on countries) and are only set to get worse with climate change. The root causes of the issues are war, climate change and demographics. No amount of "battening down the hatches" or "sticking your head in the sand", which is right wing answers to this, are going to solve it. The real solutions are strengthening global co-operation and international agencies. Unfortunately we're going in exactly the wrong direction.
moomin 2y ago
Very few of the things you’re listing are caused by immigration. They’re caused by institutional neglect. The person telling you they’re caused by immigration has no intention of addressing the institutional neglect, because that doesn’t get them power. Meanwhile, the services you need, right down to food, are supplied in many cases by immigrants. So it’s working for the average person extremely well.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  Both of you are taking these blatantly extreme narratives and putting them ot as though they were fact. The reality is that immigration is not all good for the average person. Similarly, it's not all bad for the average person either. When we frame these discussions in the stark extremist terms on either side, we get into trouble. We have to calibrate immigration, so that we get the good, without getting so much of the bad. There are so many untruths floating out there right now about immigration on both sides that it's hard for the people trying do that calibrating to actually make any progress. When we try to get a handle on the good or the bad, invariably, someone's narrative is going to be shown as false. There is an impact on wages, that's lamentable and it causes pain in a lot of the middle class. Let's put our heads together and see how can we address that? Some people are not willing to admit that there are people of foreign origin who are critical additions to our intellectual capital. But a reasoned analysis would concede that H1B's are not even close to the same as NIWs in that regard. We probably can source a lot of H1B work natively. We should still offer the H1B opportunity though, so what does that balance look like? Crime? Crime is definitely a problem. The data shows that it doesn't get better through the generations as one side would have you believe. At the same time, it isn't as prolific among people of foreign origin as the other side would have you believe. (Heck, in all honesty, the data shows crime isn't even as prolific among native born Americans as one side would have you believe.) Do we have to address it? Absolutely, but we shouldn't look at everyone as a criminal. We need balance to address these issues wisely, but balance is severely lacking in contemporary civic discourse here in the US. And therefore, balance is lacking in our policy decisions.
  - nox101 2y ago
    I know this will sound like denialism but data on crime that claims it's going down doesn't match my day to day experience and so I tend to believe something is wrong with the data. Ideas that come to mind are (1) reclassifing crimes as not crimes - instant reduction in crime in stats but no reduction in actual crime and victims (2) less reporting because of less enforcement as in police don't enforce the laws either because they don't want to or because there are less of them so there is less reportihg (3) less reporting because of uselessness. if you don't believe the police will do anything why report it. Car gets broken into, reporting is a chore that produces no results, reporting to car insurance just raises your rates. Etc... as just one example I recently rented a car at SFO and there were signs saying don't leave anything valuable in your trunk because of theft. that's effectively saying the government isn't working to prevent this crime so the criminals are winning so you can no longer use a car for one if it's intended purposes. In can fully imagine in 20 years we'll be told not to store any valuables in our houses. that not how it should work. I lived in the mission in Sf. Crime is way worse today than 20 than ago, any stats that claim otherwise are lying
oytis 2y ago
> Overcrowded cities, erosion of quality of life, strained services, competition for housing, suppression of wages, the complete abandonment of on-the-job training, falling tertiary education standards, Pretty sure the ever wealthier owner class is to blame for that, not immigrants. > minority enclaves with values that are fundamentally incompatible with the West And this is a massively overblown problem mostly pushed to distract voters from those listed above.
- threetonesun 2y ago
  Most of America 100 years ago was minority enclaves with values fundamentally incompatible with the "old" America. Worked out in the long run because we had a good run of a strong middle class. Money makes everyone merge. But, the Republicans will just attempt to make the rich richer, and keep the poor and others isolated, then sell the story that the others are the ones keeping the middle class down, not the rich.
saynay 2y ago
"Lip-service" is probably a good way to put it, since all those issues are also happening in countries without a lot of immigration, but most people don't look too far outside of their own country when considering problems in it. It is easy to look for a simple to understand change, and lay the blame on it, and people like easy answers for things they would rather not have to think about (like economies). Most of those issues are probably better explained by the trend for jobs, especially higher paying ones, to be more and more concentrated in cities. There has been almost no policy push to realistically address that from anyone, outside of lackluster and temporary measures to encourage jobs in smaller cities.
jajko 2y ago
Correlation != causation, yet again for billionth time even otherwise smart folks easily do this mistake, usually emotions cloud their rationality. There is 0 proof as in any form of research that proves what you claim, you don't even try to back it up. All this boils again to emotions - people see french teacher having head cut off by student due to showing muhammad's picture in the class, and this trumps 1000s other data points and discussions. I am not saying such things should be ignored or swept under the carpet, but analyzed rationally, discussed and good measures taken, even very harsh if they are the best course of action. Simple folks don't want to hear arguments, they want to see blood and whole world to fix their lives so they can live like some tiktokers they follow en masse. For Europe, yet again Switzerland is doing stuff 1000x better than rest of the continent. They have 3x the immigration of average western EU country, yet 0.1% problems with it. But its population is smarter and less emotionally driven, so populists have it much harder here. Also they as society setup the whole immigration as set of rules as expectations that everybody +-adheres to. But EU has too big egos to actually admit somebody is better and just learn from more successful, so they will keep fucking things up till people are so pissed they will vote for people who will do further long term damage but will tackle scary immigration boogeyman. Now its really not a good time for democracies that don't have well educated smart self-sufficient population, dictators are coming better off.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >For Europe, yet again Switzerland is doing stuff 1000x better than rest of the continent. Well, being the continent's money vault and avoiding two world wars while the whole continent ravaged itself twice, tends to make a huge difference in your nation's development (time in the market beats timing the market and Switzerland did both). Also, just like the USA, Switzerland won the geopolitical lottery early on by being in a position that's easy to defend and difficult to attack and capitalized on it over the decades by attracting the highly educated elite and the wealthy entrepreneurs escaping from the European countries as they were torn by wars and revolutions, plus the dirty money of warlords, dictators and criminals from all over the world made them incredibly prosperous. It's not a repeatable formula that any other EU country could have easily replicated. Adding the fact that Switzerland is incredibly restrictive with who they accept in the country, compared to neighboring EU countries who just let the dross in to virtue signal how tolerant they are, maintains Switzerland a very safe and desirable place to be despite it being relatively diverse (diversity in this context also means diversity of thought and diversity of opinion, not just the US identity politics version of only meaning non straight white males). So another win for them. But if you look at Swiss elections, plenty of candidates took the xenophobic route in their campaigns demonizing Muslims and burkas as the biggest threat, but unlike EU members they don't really care what other think of them so they're a lot more outspoken about it.[1][2] [1] https://www.dw.com/en/anti-minaret-campaign-divides-switzerland/a-4834688 https://www.dw.com/en/anti-minaret-campaign-divides-switzerl... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56314173 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56314173
Forgeties79 2y ago
Your comment is a fantastic display of how easy it is to obscure bigotry with reasonable-sounding window dressing.
eftpotrm 2y ago
Speaking for where I know, immigrants have been substantially higher net contributors than non-immigrants while the research on wage suppression suggests it's almost certainly not true except in some very small, very specific scenarios. So - are population and housing costs going up and infrastructure failing to keep up, while businesses don't invest? Sure - but that's down to a failure to invest the proceeds of change, not down to the change itself.
screye 2y ago
> experiment of mass migration has failed to work for the average person Could you precisely articulate this experiment ? America has had stable mass immigration for the longest time, arguably its entire history. Do you mean the entire American experiment ? In what manner has it failed to work for the average person and in what manner has it harmed their bottom line ? > Overcrowded cities, erosion of quality of life, strained services American Cities are some of the most underpopulated in the whole world. Its only crowded city (NYC) has high positive sentiment for immigrants and owes the core of its historic identity to mass immigration. Not sure how immigration erodes quality of life or strains services. The US doesn't offer much in the way of services to immigrants anyway. > competition for housing This is 100% a building problem. The US has had high levels of immigration for a long time [1]. Immigration isn't going to suddenly shock the housing system. While the absolute population of the US keeps increasing, American cities have stayed woe-fully underbuilt. [2] New housing also isn't being built where people could use it. IE. within commute distance from offices in city centers. > suppression of wages Unfortunately these have been a long time coming. The alternative is jobs being shipped out of the US. The issue is even worse in Europe, where education is worse, employees work fewer hours and skill levels in new-tech are limited. Wage suppression occurs differently in low and high skilled jobs. In the low skill domain, the US already overpays blue collar workers, unionized factory workers and restaurant wait staff compared to the rest of the world. These jobs aren't threatened by immigrants, they're threatened by automation. Among high skill workers, it is a statistics problem. 7.5 billion people from developing world want to be inside America's 300 million people bubble. Even with a 10x inefficiency, there will be twice as many talented people outside this bubble than inside it. So, the only way for the bubble to maintain its superiority is to keep skimming off the top. At 140k employment based green cards/year, that's 0.1% of the children born around the world that year. So even with another 10x inefficiency, the US would only allow the top 1 percentile of the whole world in. The US wants this top talent. Because at their caliber, they are going to outcompete the US, and fundamentally alter unipolar power structures that give US its modern form. We're already seeing this with China. Now that the US has stopped having the same appeal to top Chinese candidates, Chinese geniuses now build within China, eroding America's control in every industry, one at a time. Eg: The world's best AI institutions are all Chinese [3]. The institutions didn't improve that much. It's just that America stopped being able to poach their best away. Wages WILL be suppressed. The competition free utopia of the Boomers and Gen-Xers was only possible because the US emerged as sole superpower of the 20th century, while Asia rebuilt from scratch. Now that the world is stabilizing again, American wages can't hold up to scrutiny from the rest of world. > the complete abandonment of on-the-job training, falling tertiary education standards Not sure what immigration has to do with any of this. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/09/SR_24.09.26_immigrantupdate_4.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/184487/us-new-privately-owned-housing-units-started-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184487/us-new-privately-... [3] https://csrankings.org/#/index?ai&vision&mlmining&nlp&inforet&world https://csrankings.org/#/index?ai&vision&mlmining&nlp&infore... _______ > I don't know how bad it is in the US, but in the rest of the West, it's been a disaster. If you're talking about Canada and Europe, that's a whole another story. Yes, their mass immigration programs have been unmitigated disasters. But, you can't plainly extrapolate that to the US. The specifics matter. On that note, I wish you were more specific about what kind of immigration ? Skilled vs unskilled Legal vs Illegal Vagrant men in their 20s vs Families Religiously conservative vs liberal Tolerant vs Fundamentalist ? It makes a difference.
l33t7332273 2y ago
I’m curious how “mass immigration” has obviously and clearly impacted people’s daily lives in middle America - outside of media
immibis 2y ago
What you're observing is that: - there's immigration - normal people are getting shafted However, the two things are entirely unrelated. However, the ones doing the shafting tell people they're related so often that people believe it. [this line censored by moderator intervention]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
mbesto 2y ago
> the political left have failed to show up with an answer, a policy, a plan -- anything, really. This is factually untrue. U.S. Citizenship Act of 2021 was a legislative bill that was proposed by President Joe Biden on his first day in office.[0] It died in committee. The reality is that illegal immigration is good for ALL business (regardless of whether you are democrat or republican) in the US. This is the hush-hush wink-wink reality that most politicians understand but would never say publicly. They create appearances they are doing something (e.g. creating legislation that might fix the problem) but knowing it won't ever pass in a partisan legislative body. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_Act_of_2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_Act_of_2021

n4r9 2y ago

All the things you listed are a result of neoliberal austerity politics much more than they are a result of immigration.

VagabundoP 2y ago
Having better safety nets definitely helps people look outward rather than in. Pensions, social security, healthcare; once you have a feeling that you'll be taken care of if things go bad you can think about your neighbours a little more.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  This. The democrats shifted to the center instead of creating a campaign chasm on actual progressive issues that Americans would generally support like universal healthcare[0], student debt cancellation, housing subsidies, stronger pro labor policies (support for unions has grown across the aisle substantially) and generally fairer more equitable economic participation. That would have reached across the aisle and put Republicans on the defensive especially around messaging Instead, they went strong with wedge issues and tried to play culture wars. Which honestly I don’t disagree with the conclusions and policy positions democrats made here but it didn’t speak to economic fears or relief for the masses We did this to ourselves to a certain degree. All progressives have left now is molotovs in the streets [0]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-healthcare.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/468401/majority-say-gov-ensure-...
  - matwood 2y ago
    I agree focusing on the culture issues was an incorrect move. But, union members seem to have gone largely pro-Trump even after he talked about firing anyone who went on strike and breaking them up with Musk. It's hard to understand.
fallingknife 2y ago
What austerity politics? The US is running a 6% deficit.
- n4r9 2y ago
  OP was talking about "the rest of the West" so I was thinking more about the UK, where we've effectively had over a decade of austerity politics.
jvmboi81 2y ago
Where is the austerity? Does it have a knife?

okeuro49 2y ago

It's getting really noticeable across every western democracy. The far-left strategy seems to be clientele politics, and attempting to rule over the fractured result.

immibis 2y ago

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jvmboi81 2y ago
That's really a quite very unrefined view of Hitler's rise to power. If you really want to prevent Hitler then you have to prevent the end-stage of the Weimar Republic. So, you'd need a strong economy, rule of law, public order and a culture of decency and trust. What makes people yearn for autocratic rule isn't "blaming the jews" it's the everyday circumstances that arise when liberals are done running a place into the ground. Like California, at the moment.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >it's the everyday circumstances that arise when liberals are done running a place into the ground. Not just running the place into the ground, but also actively lecturing people how everything is fine and how it's their perception that is wrong. That's what really pisses people off and gets the to vote extremists as those tend to at least acknowledge some of the issues average people are facing or seeing. Average working class people don't like being lectured by upper class higher educated elitists off their high horse on how they're wrong.
  - bigfudge 2y ago
    This is idiotic. People who live in California just voted Harris. Their quality of life is fine. The irony is that it’s the redneck parts of the states that are suffering most from neoliberal austerity.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      I wasn't talking about California but in general.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      California has more Trump voters than a number of swing states combined.

cassepipe 2y ago

You would need to show up with data to back up those claims. I live in (around) a major city. Sure it's overcrowded but that has nothing to do with foreign immigration and everything to do about it being a economic powerhouse. Quality of life has been increasing since the city has invested/is investing in more transportation/bikeable lanes/better air pollution standards/less noise. Also laws that are forcing better insulation standards are a net quality of life both in terms of comfort and footing the bill. Even the people who really need to take their cars will benefit because there will less traffic jams on account of 1. people for whom it was mostly comfort leaving the road and 2. reduced speed means less unnecessary braking to get out and in the motorway around the city. Strained services seems to be because of budget tightening. It's a policy choice that has to do with ideology (don't fund a service when it could made profitable by outsourcing it) and trying to save on budgets because of a bad economy. Again you'd have to back up with data that it has something to do with immigration. I could on and on but basically what you are saying there was too much new people too fast but I don't think this is nowhere true in my western european country. The only thing that could worry is the minorities enclaves but it's not hard to break up a ghetto by opening it up sociogeographically and economically, you just need to the political will to do so but instead it's left in place and used as convenient fear-mongering tool for politicians.

amarcheschi 2y ago
If wages are suppressed and you look at some guy making less than you with a different skin color, I think you're looking at the wrong guy. I agree with what you say, I regret not having voted in my Italian city and now third places have been closed because not profitable
- Jensson 2y ago
  Supply of cheap labor lowers wages, not sure why you believe otherwise. There are other things that can lower wages, but cheap supply is a factor.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago

_yb2s 2y ago

This is simply the ancient political strategy of blaming our problems on groups of people that are different, and not actually taking responsibility to identify and fix the real causes. It is a formula as old as time for despots to seize power by fabricating an enemy that doesn’t exist from peoples prejudice and fear.

ulbu 2y ago
you can’t reduce ecological principles to just rhetoric. less resources, more requirements = more strain. the more resources to share, the less impact of the same shared unit, the easier it is to dispense to whoever. sharing resources with others with those who share other properties is more acceptable to most. but this propensity is generally reduced with more resources to share. humans band into groups in competition for resources when they are scarce. just as how people are getting triggered online more easily by displeasure, so they are triggered by the bad apples more than the invisible good ones. there’s more of good ones, but the larger their absolute number, the more resources are shared and the more bad apples there are, the more this sharing becomes problematic. the fewer shared properties there are, the less there is to dilute the bad-applehood. abstracting away from this into a symbolic ideal (equivalence via property of “humanhood” and equivalence via property of “need” determined via capacity of empathy and Christian virtue) does no one any good and is experienced as a result of effacement of shared histories (roots). the idea that real present (ie, ahistorical) causative elements are always only just social or imperialist is ideology.
- oytis 2y ago
  Yet the voters don't want to deal with those who actually hoard these limited resources, and prefer to blame immigrants and other minorities
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Um.. because as UniverseHacker stated at the outset, that's a time tested method of gaining power. It works. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Trump is the new President isn't he?

anovikov 2y ago

But well, immigration has to only increase. Many of the problems of the West are due to insufficient immigration. And at the present time, we don't even care much about quality. We need just "bodies": whoever is willing to come, ideally those who are likely to have lots of children (although their birthrate falls dramatically once in). Because a generation down the road, those people will run out and countries will be competing hard to get ANYONE in.

jvmboi81 2y ago
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- no_wizard 2y ago
  Huh? Who said anything about ethnically and culturally uniform? In the US I’ve never heard this narrative from major candidates or seen it in their policy proposals from the democrats Rhetoric is always about respecting the melting pot and letting cultural and ethnic differences co-exist under the great American experiment as it always has since its founding
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > Rhetoric is always about respecting the melting pot That is the uniform culture. You see it in tv shows everywhere, people looking the same in every show etc. (the 1 black, 1 white woman 1 white man 1 Hispanic 1 Asian group you see everywhere in American stuff) There used to be shows like Friends and Fresh Prince which means diversity, now everything is just the gruel of the melting pot.
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      The general melting pot of cultures goes back over a century in this country. It’s been a cornerstone of US idealism for a long time. It does rest that cultures will become homogeneous over time as they melt together but I take what is being asserted to be different from that, as in it’s promoting an artificial uniformity of culture rather a naturally blended one

bjourne 2y ago

How you figure immigration is the cause of all that? You might as well add hemorrhoids and back pains to your list.

astrange 2y ago
Immigration opponents just make up things so they can claim immigration caused it. The biggest tell is that they mention wage suppression, because they think it'll make them sound sympathetic - but there is absolutely zero evidence that immigration lowers any native wages, and theoretically you should expect it to increase them because of increased demand. (Conversely, when people move away this reduces demand and lowers your wages.) That and employment for prime aged (i.e. not retirement age) Americans is as high as it's ever been.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Immigration does have a net benefit to the economy, generally, but of course it tends to depress wages for anyone in sectors the immigrants are landing jobs in. Even NPR admits this, when they cover the topic. If this weren’t the case, there wouldn’t be a bunch of us wanting to loosen rules about foreign-trained doctors practicing in the US. Whether those sectors include most of the people worried that their wages will be suppressed, when who we’re talking about are illegal immigrants who mostly do stuff like chicken processing and house framing/roofing, is another matter. It’s weird that “we had a bipartisan bill to address specifically this thing you’re worried about, likely to pass and be signed into law, and Trump scuttled it so he could keep complaining about it” didn’t resonate. Frankly, if that’s too “technical” a message to be received, we really are fucked.
  - amarcheschi 2y ago
    A guy answered me in another comment where I was saying similar things about wages, and apparently it's not true, it's an interesting read (which I can't criticize or comment since I'm not knowledgeable in economics) https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-reduce https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/repost-why-immigration-doesnt-...

arp242 2y ago

Everyone in Europe has been talking about it for decades and many parties on the left have nuanced views on it, and they're certainly not ignoring it. In the US, "the wall" Trump was banging on about in 2016 already existed. Deportations under Obama were higher than under Trump, and higher still under the Clinton administration. Secondly in many countries "the left" hasn't really been in power for a long time; often government are in the centre or centre-right.

emilfihlman 2y ago

You'll get a lot of hate for saying these things, but it's good you said them. People really need to face reality and that our society simply cannot sustain even limited immigration if those people end up as a negative for the state in terms of financials.

astrange 2y ago
The US doesn't give immigrants welfare, and they pay taxes, so that would be difficult.
- tgma 2y ago
  False. Immigrants are eligible for various social benefits, food stamps, health care, etc.
- nradov 2y ago
  Many recent US immigrants are asylum seekers. They do receive substantial government cash payments and free housing (i.e. welfare). I am generally pro immigration, but let's be clear about the cost. https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/refugees/programs-and-info/asylees https://www.cdss.ca.gov/inforesources/refugees/programs-and-...
  - bombcar 2y ago
    Let’s also not pretend that “free housing” is NOT a major transfer of wealth from the government to landlords. People would likely be less annoyed if the “free housing” was more akin to government owned military barracks instead of subsidized rent to private enterprise.
    - mrguyorama 2y ago
      Find me a republican voter that will sign off on the government building the new housing stock.
benfortuna 2y ago

adrianN 2y ago

Where I live I have the impression that cities are overcrowded because that’s where the jobs are. I don’t think immigration is the main problem, but I don’t know the actual data.

cranberryturkey 2y ago

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hellyeahbruder 2y ago
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b3ing 2y ago
I doubt that happens as it benefits the elites to pull down tech employee wages

bigfudge 2y ago

Immigration is not at a historic high in us or Europe. I think it’s a combination of regressive social policy and redistribution upwards plus moderately high immigration which leaves an opportunity for populist bigots to leverage anti immigration rhetoric in elections.

piltdownman 2y ago
What? 5.1 million immigrants entered the EU from non-EU countries in 2022, an increase of around 117% (2.7 million) compared with 2021. The population of Ireland alone increased by 3.5% in 2023 - a 3.5 per cent increase in population in a given year being one of the highest ever for a single country in recorded history. https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/06/10/european-commission-says-irish-population-rose-by-record-35-per-cent-last-year/ https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2024/06/10...
- rxyz 2y ago
  Wasn't 2022 a huge outlier because of the war in Ukraine?
  - bigfudge 2y ago
    Yes

wowsonottrue 2y ago

Constant immigration is not sustainable. Especially when people come from cultures which are very different than the west. They have different value systems, religions, etc. There is also the problem of scale, imagine if all of India moved to Germany. What would happen? At some point the politicians will have to look at the issue.

bottom999mottob 2y ago
This is one of the worst over-generalizations. Cultures are not monolithic, static entities. How do we go from "different cultures" to "negative outcomes?" That's a complete non-sequiter. Imagine if all of Germany moved to India. What would happen? What if part of Britain moved to UK? At some point the politicians will have to look at the issue...
- fallingknife 2y ago
  Here is how: > During the 2015–2016 celebrations of New Year's Eve in Germany, approximately 1,200 women were reported to have been sexually assaulted, especially in the city of Cologne. In many of the incidents, while these women were in public spaces, they were surrounded and assaulted by large groups of men who were identified by officials as Arab or North African men. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_E...
  - bilbo0s 2y ago
    Slightly off topic, but what's the difference between North African and Arab? Are Egyptians, Algerians, Libyans etc not real Arabs? How are they classified technically speaking?
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Aren’t “Arabs” from the Arabic peninsula (sometimes including Israel and Turkey et al) and North Africans from … North Africa? They may be similar in many ways but they’re geographically distinct.

VagabundoP 2y ago

Migrants are how people are fed and how many esential jobs are filled. They aren't the problem, even illegal immigration are blips (although massive wars have put huge pressures on countries) and are only set to get worse with climate change. The root causes of the issues are war, climate change and demographics. No amount of "battening down the hatches" or "sticking your head in the sand", which is right wing answers to this, are going to solve it. The real solutions are strengthening global co-operation and international agencies. Unfortunately we're going in exactly the wrong direction.

moomin 2y ago

Very few of the things you’re listing are caused by immigration. They’re caused by institutional neglect. The person telling you they’re caused by immigration has no intention of addressing the institutional neglect, because that doesn’t get them power. Meanwhile, the services you need, right down to food, are supplied in many cases by immigrants. So it’s working for the average person extremely well.

bilbo0s 2y ago
Both of you are taking these blatantly extreme narratives and putting them ot as though they were fact. The reality is that immigration is not all good for the average person. Similarly, it's not all bad for the average person either. When we frame these discussions in the stark extremist terms on either side, we get into trouble. We have to calibrate immigration, so that we get the good, without getting so much of the bad. There are so many untruths floating out there right now about immigration on both sides that it's hard for the people trying do that calibrating to actually make any progress. When we try to get a handle on the good or the bad, invariably, someone's narrative is going to be shown as false. There is an impact on wages, that's lamentable and it causes pain in a lot of the middle class. Let's put our heads together and see how can we address that? Some people are not willing to admit that there are people of foreign origin who are critical additions to our intellectual capital. But a reasoned analysis would concede that H1B's are not even close to the same as NIWs in that regard. We probably can source a lot of H1B work natively. We should still offer the H1B opportunity though, so what does that balance look like? Crime? Crime is definitely a problem. The data shows that it doesn't get better through the generations as one side would have you believe. At the same time, it isn't as prolific among people of foreign origin as the other side would have you believe. (Heck, in all honesty, the data shows crime isn't even as prolific among native born Americans as one side would have you believe.) Do we have to address it? Absolutely, but we shouldn't look at everyone as a criminal. We need balance to address these issues wisely, but balance is severely lacking in contemporary civic discourse here in the US. And therefore, balance is lacking in our policy decisions.
- nox101 2y ago
  I know this will sound like denialism but data on crime that claims it's going down doesn't match my day to day experience and so I tend to believe something is wrong with the data. Ideas that come to mind are (1) reclassifing crimes as not crimes - instant reduction in crime in stats but no reduction in actual crime and victims (2) less reporting because of less enforcement as in police don't enforce the laws either because they don't want to or because there are less of them so there is less reportihg (3) less reporting because of uselessness. if you don't believe the police will do anything why report it. Car gets broken into, reporting is a chore that produces no results, reporting to car insurance just raises your rates. Etc... as just one example I recently rented a car at SFO and there were signs saying don't leave anything valuable in your trunk because of theft. that's effectively saying the government isn't working to prevent this crime so the criminals are winning so you can no longer use a car for one if it's intended purposes. In can fully imagine in 20 years we'll be told not to store any valuables in our houses. that not how it should work. I lived in the mission in Sf. Crime is way worse today than 20 than ago, any stats that claim otherwise are lying

oytis 2y ago

> Overcrowded cities, erosion of quality of life, strained services, competition for housing, suppression of wages, the complete abandonment of on-the-job training, falling tertiary education standards, Pretty sure the ever wealthier owner class is to blame for that, not immigrants. > minority enclaves with values that are fundamentally incompatible with the West And this is a massively overblown problem mostly pushed to distract voters from those listed above.

threetonesun 2y ago
Most of America 100 years ago was minority enclaves with values fundamentally incompatible with the "old" America. Worked out in the long run because we had a good run of a strong middle class. Money makes everyone merge. But, the Republicans will just attempt to make the rich richer, and keep the poor and others isolated, then sell the story that the others are the ones keeping the middle class down, not the rich.

saynay 2y ago

"Lip-service" is probably a good way to put it, since all those issues are also happening in countries without a lot of immigration, but most people don't look too far outside of their own country when considering problems in it. It is easy to look for a simple to understand change, and lay the blame on it, and people like easy answers for things they would rather not have to think about (like economies). Most of those issues are probably better explained by the trend for jobs, especially higher paying ones, to be more and more concentrated in cities. There has been almost no policy push to realistically address that from anyone, outside of lackluster and temporary measures to encourage jobs in smaller cities.

jajko 2y ago

Correlation != causation, yet again for billionth time even otherwise smart folks easily do this mistake, usually emotions cloud their rationality. There is 0 proof as in any form of research that proves what you claim, you don't even try to back it up. All this boils again to emotions - people see french teacher having head cut off by student due to showing muhammad's picture in the class, and this trumps 1000s other data points and discussions. I am not saying such things should be ignored or swept under the carpet, but analyzed rationally, discussed and good measures taken, even very harsh if they are the best course of action. Simple folks don't want to hear arguments, they want to see blood and whole world to fix their lives so they can live like some tiktokers they follow en masse. For Europe, yet again Switzerland is doing stuff 1000x better than rest of the continent. They have 3x the immigration of average western EU country, yet 0.1% problems with it. But its population is smarter and less emotionally driven, so populists have it much harder here. Also they as society setup the whole immigration as set of rules as expectations that everybody +-adheres to. But EU has too big egos to actually admit somebody is better and just learn from more successful, so they will keep fucking things up till people are so pissed they will vote for people who will do further long term damage but will tackle scary immigration boogeyman. Now its really not a good time for democracies that don't have well educated smart self-sufficient population, dictators are coming better off.

Rinzler89 2y ago
>For Europe, yet again Switzerland is doing stuff 1000x better than rest of the continent. Well, being the continent's money vault and avoiding two world wars while the whole continent ravaged itself twice, tends to make a huge difference in your nation's development (time in the market beats timing the market and Switzerland did both). Also, just like the USA, Switzerland won the geopolitical lottery early on by being in a position that's easy to defend and difficult to attack and capitalized on it over the decades by attracting the highly educated elite and the wealthy entrepreneurs escaping from the European countries as they were torn by wars and revolutions, plus the dirty money of warlords, dictators and criminals from all over the world made them incredibly prosperous. It's not a repeatable formula that any other EU country could have easily replicated. Adding the fact that Switzerland is incredibly restrictive with who they accept in the country, compared to neighboring EU countries who just let the dross in to virtue signal how tolerant they are, maintains Switzerland a very safe and desirable place to be despite it being relatively diverse (diversity in this context also means diversity of thought and diversity of opinion, not just the US identity politics version of only meaning non straight white males). So another win for them. But if you look at Swiss elections, plenty of candidates took the xenophobic route in their campaigns demonizing Muslims and burkas as the biggest threat, but unlike EU members they don't really care what other think of them so they're a lot more outspoken about it.[1][2] [1] https://www.dw.com/en/anti-minaret-campaign-divides-switzerland/a-4834688 https://www.dw.com/en/anti-minaret-campaign-divides-switzerl... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56314173 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56314173

Forgeties79 2y ago

Your comment is a fantastic display of how easy it is to obscure bigotry with reasonable-sounding window dressing.

eftpotrm 2y ago

Speaking for where I know, immigrants have been substantially higher net contributors than non-immigrants while the research on wage suppression suggests it's almost certainly not true except in some very small, very specific scenarios. So - are population and housing costs going up and infrastructure failing to keep up, while businesses don't invest? Sure - but that's down to a failure to invest the proceeds of change, not down to the change itself.

screye 2y ago

> experiment of mass migration has failed to work for the average person Could you precisely articulate this experiment ? America has had stable mass immigration for the longest time, arguably its entire history. Do you mean the entire American experiment ? In what manner has it failed to work for the average person and in what manner has it harmed their bottom line ? > Overcrowded cities, erosion of quality of life, strained services American Cities are some of the most underpopulated in the whole world. Its only crowded city (NYC) has high positive sentiment for immigrants and owes the core of its historic identity to mass immigration. Not sure how immigration erodes quality of life or strains services. The US doesn't offer much in the way of services to immigrants anyway. > competition for housing This is 100% a building problem. The US has had high levels of immigration for a long time [1]. Immigration isn't going to suddenly shock the housing system. While the absolute population of the US keeps increasing, American cities have stayed woe-fully underbuilt. [2] New housing also isn't being built where people could use it. IE. within commute distance from offices in city centers. > suppression of wages Unfortunately these have been a long time coming. The alternative is jobs being shipped out of the US. The issue is even worse in Europe, where education is worse, employees work fewer hours and skill levels in new-tech are limited. Wage suppression occurs differently in low and high skilled jobs. In the low skill domain, the US already overpays blue collar workers, unionized factory workers and restaurant wait staff compared to the rest of the world. These jobs aren't threatened by immigrants, they're threatened by automation. Among high skill workers, it is a statistics problem. 7.5 billion people from developing world want to be inside America's 300 million people bubble. Even with a 10x inefficiency, there will be twice as many talented people outside this bubble than inside it. So, the only way for the bubble to maintain its superiority is to keep skimming off the top. At 140k employment based green cards/year, that's 0.1% of the children born around the world that year. So even with another 10x inefficiency, the US would only allow the top 1 percentile of the whole world in. The US wants this top talent. Because at their caliber, they are going to outcompete the US, and fundamentally alter unipolar power structures that give US its modern form. We're already seeing this with China. Now that the US has stopped having the same appeal to top Chinese candidates, Chinese geniuses now build within China, eroding America's control in every industry, one at a time. Eg: The world's best AI institutions are all Chinese [3]. The institutions didn't improve that much. It's just that America stopped being able to poach their best away. Wages WILL be suppressed. The competition free utopia of the Boomers and Gen-Xers was only possible because the US emerged as sole superpower of the 20th century, while Asia rebuilt from scratch. Now that the world is stabilizing again, American wages can't hold up to scrutiny from the rest of world. > the complete abandonment of on-the-job training, falling tertiary education standards Not sure what immigration has to do with any of this. [1] https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024/09/SR_24.09.26_immigrantupdate_4.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2024... [2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/184487/us-new-privately-owned-housing-units-started-since-2000/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/184487/us-new-privately-... [3] https://csrankings.org/#/index?ai&vision&mlmining&nlp&inforet&world https://csrankings.org/#/index?ai&vision&mlmining&nlp&infore... _______ > I don't know how bad it is in the US, but in the rest of the West, it's been a disaster. If you're talking about Canada and Europe, that's a whole another story. Yes, their mass immigration programs have been unmitigated disasters. But, you can't plainly extrapolate that to the US. The specifics matter. On that note, I wish you were more specific about what kind of immigration ? Skilled vs unskilled Legal vs Illegal Vagrant men in their 20s vs Families Religiously conservative vs liberal Tolerant vs Fundamentalist ? It makes a difference.

l33t7332273 2y ago

I’m curious how “mass immigration” has obviously and clearly impacted people’s daily lives in middle America - outside of media

immibis 2y ago

What you're observing is that: - there's immigration - normal people are getting shafted However, the two things are entirely unrelated. However, the ones doing the shafting tell people they're related so often that people believe it. [this line censored by moderator intervention]

deleted 2y ago
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mbesto 2y ago

> the political left have failed to show up with an answer, a policy, a plan -- anything, really. This is factually untrue. U.S. Citizenship Act of 2021 was a legislative bill that was proposed by President Joe Biden on his first day in office.[0] It died in committee. The reality is that illegal immigration is good for ALL business (regardless of whether you are democrat or republican) in the US. This is the hush-hush wink-wink reality that most politicians understand but would never say publicly. They create appearances they are doing something (e.g. creating legislation that might fix the problem) but knowing it won't ever pass in a partisan legislative body. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_Act_of_2021 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Citizenship_Act_of_2021