17 ms·

We're excited about our new roundabout

190 points by aendruk 2y ago

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asynchronous 2y ago
At first glance I’m confused how to navigate it- a flowchart would be nice. Or just a video of traffic using it.
- 9021007 2y ago
  The article has a video
- btbuilder 2y ago
  There’s a link in the article but here it is with a time code for the start of the simulation. https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw?t=39 https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw?t=39
- pwg 2y ago
  About half way in to the article is a link to a youtube video.
- presentation 2y ago
  I think this is what it’s supposed to be like https://imgur.com/a/nsh80tf https://imgur.com/a/nsh80tf
- deleted 2y ago
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marssaxman 2y ago
I'm glad they're excited, but I hope I never encounter this.
- ajb 2y ago
  It may be unusual there, but in the UK we have loads. Some are smaller than this: the minimum roundabout is just a paint circle. They aren't a problem Most people here actually prefer roundabouts to traffic lights because you keep moving (although this is partly selection bias- traffic lights are deployed at junctions where a roundabout would fail to evenly arbitrate the different flows )
  - nullspace 2y ago
    You may feel less enthusiastic about it once you watch the linked video. I wouldn’t exactly call it a roundabout. That’s only what’s at the center of it.
    - ajb 2y ago
      Ok fair enough, that extra bit does make it slightly more complicated. Having said that though, I would not be fazed by this, and I don't think many UK drivers would be - because we already deal with many that have more parts. When I was learning to drive, I found a particular triple roundabout quite painful but no longer have any difficulty. There are two skills you need to pick up to deal with any roundabout system. The first is judgement of how distant other vehicles need to be before you can enter. As a learner I used to irritate the drivers behind me by being far too cautious; on a busy roundabout you can't expect an enormous gap, so you need to know what length of gap the other drivers will expect you to take advantage of. This you can only learn from experience. The other is to plan your route, because you need to choose your entry lane based on where you want to go. These days your navigation app will probably tell you the best entry lane.
  - andreareina 2y ago
    You guys like roundabouts so much you've gone recursive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) (To be clear I like roundabouts)
    - ajb 2y ago
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nostromo 2y ago
Seattle Department of Transportation and Washington State DOT have honestly gotten way too creative. It's like every city, every locale, and sometimes every street has a new collection of obstacles and rules to circumnavigate. Roundabouts are great, but they should probably be round. In this case, it seems that it'd be easy to navigate if the two roads were brought into a single, simple roundabout intersection like you see at any other location.
- jghn 2y ago
  It is intentional. The idea is to force drivers to reduce speed, and the mechanism is because it isn't familiar to the drivers. The claim is it forces them to be thoughtful. Whether or not it works or is a good idea is not something on which I'm opining.
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    It's basically always safer to make a higher speed driver uncomfortable continuing at high speed. Reducing high speed through driver discomfort is 99% of what saves lives in road design.
  - deleted 2y ago
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- blamazon 2y ago
  The article explains why they made the decision not to do a traditional dog-bone interchange with two circular roundabouts. Namely, there were right of way limitations and a need to incorporate heavy farm trucks making a left turn. So, they ended up with basically 1.5 roundabouts which represents a simplification over the dog bone.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  The lack of turn signal usage in the region also makes funky roundabouts much harder to navigate. Like you have to wait until there is a large enough gap in the cars to enter the circle, even if none of the cars actually end up intersecting your path.
nixosbestos 2y ago
Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they're apparently just ... completely on auto-pilot in the US.
- 509engr 2y ago
  No, you're definitely not the only one who likes them. Some folks complain about them when they first go in, but they tend to figure it out. WSDOT has been encouraging them for a few years now, and my town has several new roundabouts as a result -- and lots of other cities across the state are using them. They've made navigating those intersections way easier, reduced traffic "waiting times", and generally improved safety versus a lighted intersection. I'm glad they're continuing to find ways to make them work. It seemed when I was growing up in NJ, the state DOT was taking out the giant roundabouts that they were famous for, and now in Washington, they're having a huge resurgence.
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    Huge roundabouts are very dangerous; the safety factor in the modern ones WA installs is that they are tight and slow, which reduces the severity of any crashes. It also does not help that NJ is the only state in the US that does not have a consistent rule about roundabout traffic priority.
  - themadturk 2y ago
    I agree, Washington does seem to at least aspire to better roundabouts than some places I've heard of. The one rule I see to be truly necessary is "yield to oncoming traffic from the left." I still get confused at the big roundabout in Kent, after coming off Highway 167 at Willis Street, but most others I've encountered are fine, despite the drivers who still want to stop before proceeding onto them even when there's no other traffic.
- 2y ago
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code_runner 2y ago
US here. There seems to be an obsession at the moment with adding roundabouts in my area. They don’t always fit where they are put. Some of them have a stop sign in the roundabout? When asked why, the answer is reducing “points of conflict”, which is a static variable. There aren’t actually studies being done before or after to see if makes the flow of traffic better. They are also adding them in walkable areas with the express intent of “traffic never stopping” which doesn’t go well with pedestrians crossing the street. I think we can find better ways to spend money… including the salaries of the people dreaming up bizarre applications for these things.
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  > Some of them have a stop sign in the roundabout? Traffic gets much heavier and we'll need stop signs at our roundabout near my house. During rush hour it has predominantly one flow of traffic and nobody slows down below 30-35 mph so getting into the roundabout can be difficult. A stop sign would defeat some of the point of a roundabout but it may become necessary to enforce safety.
  - thepaulmcbride 2y ago
    In the UK a lot of roundabouts have traffic signals for this purpose that only turn on during busy times.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
    How big are the roundabouts? I've read one of the problems that can be had is smaller ones, like in this picture, allow drivers to go through at high speed unimpeded. The "ideal" design seems to be to wiggle the road the opposite direction of the turning motion then force going around a decent sized center. In this way going around a roundabout quickly isn't impossible... but going 35 mph would make most feel quite uneasy. The downside is it greatly amplifies one of the biggest roundabout downsides: the amount of space needed.
id00 2y ago
Australian who lived in Washington state for 4.5 years. Very happy to see those kind of changes. Much better and safer than 4-way stop intersections and I hope American drivers will figure out eventually how to use them
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Aside from one old lady that I saw doing laps a few years ago after our nearby roundabout first opened, it seems like most people figure it out pretty quickly. But they're too comfortable with it, and most people blast through without even hitting the brakes. That brings its own problems.
  - globular-toast 2y ago
    I did wonder that. The article says it "slows traffic" but looking at the picture it's basically just lines painted on the ground. Does it really slow anything? A proper roundabout with a fully raised centre not only slows people down but forces you round so any collisions that do happen are minor glancing ones rather than catastrophic perpendicular ones.
    - thinkingemote 2y ago
      Generally, they are designed to naturally make the driver slow a little to see other cars on approach. Often it's paired with slight turns just before the intersection which also does the same thing partly. Some places (most?) actually put obstacles like trees to make it harder to see other cars from further away. I suppose it depends on what is meant by traffic and I suppose it does depend on whether "slows traffic" means slowing down compared to just zooming past with a green, or drives at a slow speed. I would think that a) it slows traffic compared with zooming past and b) it's not that slower On average, I suppose, smoothly moving traffic at slightly slower speeds will be more efficient than 3 lanes of stopped traffic and 1 of fast.
lolinder 2y ago
Keep in mind that a lot of these traffic devices look way more confusing from above than they actually look while on the ground. From above you can see the whole device at once, and trying to trace a path through it can feel overwhelming, but when you're actually going through it your view is usually restricted in ways that limit your perceived choices at any point in time.
- lmm 2y ago
  I'd say just the opposite. Indeed, in the UK it's normal for the signs leading up to a roundabout to include an overhead map view, since that's often the easiest way to understand what you need to do to get where you want to.
  - meowster 2y ago
    I imagine you're referring to a simple line drawing (with labels)?
    - dave333 2y ago
      For example - Britain's most notorious roundabout https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5622263,-1.7713205,3a,48.7y,332.14h,96.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6zJURGdk-dyrucuw28391g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m2!1e2!1e4?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5622263,-1.7713205,3a,48.7y,...
      - StuPC2000 2y ago
        I grew up in this town, and even had to navigate this Magic Roundabout on my driving test. It's not so bad once you understand how it operates, but you have to pay attention.
      - esskay 2y ago
        Similar with Hemel's: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7458345,-0.4742799,3a,75y,21.28h,79.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHkT805WwSU3eAME_FVgF7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m2!1e4!1e2?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7458345,-0.4742799,3a,75y,21... The map/diagram helps people not familar, the only really complicated thing is making sure you get in the right lane, and keeping an eye on those around you.
asimjalis 2y ago
I would recommend some yield signs; the dashed line on the ground is easy to miss.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
We are getting similar one here [0]. Whenever you get there you try to get out asap. It’s a nightmare. 0: https://maps.app.goo.gl/BxmPqsf41p639Vy88?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/BxmPqsf41p639Vy88?g_st=ic
thepaulmcbride 2y ago
I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.
- dave333 2y ago
  That is a good way to have an accident - I know since I've done it. While "looking one way" on a USA counterclockwise roundabout you are looking left to see traffic already on the roundabout and if clear you go and run smack into the back of the vehicle ahead of you who for some reason stalled or hesitated or just judged the traffic differently. However it will be a low speed accident.
  - sierra1011 2y ago
    As a general rule, one should be looking in the direction in which the vehicle is traveling. It's easily done though, if rushing, or if the vehicle in front pulls away slightly but stops again.
- bfdm 2y ago
  Yep. Canada suburbs here. We're starting to see roundabouts used more often for what would be higher traffic four-ways or inconvenient lights. They're great, both as a driver and as a cyclist. Lower conflict risk, simple rules to proceed. IMO all smaller 4 way stops should become what I've described as trash can roundabouts. Small island to circle around. So much better than stop signs.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    In Seattle, we have trash can roundabout (really just round traffic calming islands, we don’t consider them roundabouts) and stop signs at the same intersections.
  - 2y ago
AngryData 2y ago
I fail to see how this helps over more traditional designs. Not to mention tight roundabouts always have horrible curbs that trucks have to smash into to try and jump over to make the turns, and they are never gentle bumps, they are always tire and curb damaging trash, especially for heavy loads which are primarily the vehicles that need to jump the curbs. All the roundabouts around me I wish they would just get rid of, I can navigate them just fine, but they are way too small, over congested, and dangerous because the 5 seconds you have to read the signs as you approach to know whats going on is too much for anyone non-local which makes them unpredictable and nervous drivers.
- nine_k 2y ago
  OTOH if you can't read the sign where to turn right, you can keep turning left, make a full circle, and check the signs again, and again if needed, in under half a minute. All without creating a problem to anyone around you, and being safe yourself. I'll take it any time over a typical highway exit; if you miss it, or uf you take a wrong one, it's usually dozens of miles before you have a chance to take any corrective action at all.
- foota 2y ago
  For one, roundabouts turn what would be a T-Bone intersection into a glancing hit. I think that's the biggest safety benefit. They also improve the flow of traffic since there's no starting and stopping (think of it like a stoplight is a mutex lock and a roundabout is a spinlock).
  - bobthepanda 2y ago
    And because they have no electronic or moving parts, the upkeep is minimal. There is some cost to a traffic light, particularly as you start adding weird phases and whatnot.
- nullindividual 2y ago
  There is no room for a traditional roundabout in this location and the gravel trucks from the nearby quarry can hop the very short curbs as needed. This roundabout is perfectly fine in practice.
freditup 2y ago
The picture of the roundabout from above at the beginning of the article is extra confusing because it doesn't have the final lane markings yet and the ones you can see are misleading. The (presumably) final markings[0] make things less confusing. [0]: https://www.google.com/maps/place/High+Rock+Rd,+Washington+98272/@47.8121607,-121.9826373,89m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x549aa0b779ae6ff3:0x66ffe2ef35ece7a6!8m2!3d47.8059769!4d-121.9660415!16s%2Fg%2F1v44q3pw?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/High+Rock+Rd,+Washington+9...
- jayyhu 2y ago
  They made a video that explains how to navigate the roundabout, and shows what it will actually look like (with yield markings)[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw
  - SamBam 2y ago
    Um, if your new traffic feature requires an explanatory video, then you've done something wrong...
  - Karellen 2y ago
    What the hell is that "dump truck with trailer" on a really long connector at 3:50? Is that a thing in some parts? How does that navigate almost any kind of roadway safely?
    - knallfrosch 2y ago
      I guess that's exaggerated to proof that it works?
    - btbuildem 2y ago
      They're called "pup" trailers [1] (example photo [2]), and the very long hitch exists for a few reasons: per-axle weight limit, respecting max weight capacity of smaller bridges, and ease of unloading [3] among them. 1: https://titanww.com/what-is-a-pup-trailer/ https://titanww.com/what-is-a-pup-trailer/ 2: https://imgur.com/raDJVVL https://imgur.com/raDJVVL 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5L_2TMjKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5L_2TMjKc (sorry, terrible handheld video)
nullindividual 2y ago
I drive through this roundabout. It’s such a huge improvement. And little confusing at first due to being two roundabouts in one, but not hard to navigate.
mozzieman 2y ago
The comment section on the youtube video is soo good. Everyone seem to almost have accidents and everyone complaining. Think prob they need to work a bit on this design.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  The fact that the learning curve is "almost" crashes means it's working well.
twelve40 2y ago
At least that one is small. They'd know for sure from the change in numbers pretty soon if it improved things or not. But for multi-lane ones I absolutely lose my shit and freak out when I get into one. Many decades of driving experience, but when in Europe (France, Italy, Spain) i encounter a multi-lane roundabout, every time it feels extremely confusing and unpredictable. People moving in all directions, cars, scooters, you need to calculate which lane you need to get into, and get out of, and do all that while accommodating crisscrossing neighboring vehicles who are all also trying to maneuver in every direction. Having to turn the entire time makes it feel very fast and dangerous, always paranoid about crushing some scooter that I didn't spot from one of the many angles while turning. Doesn't seem to get easier with time for me either, unlike all other driving. Glad we don't have multi-lane roundabouts in CA.
- Legogris 2y ago
  IME (also observing other drivers), the usual multi-lane roundabouts are something you get comfortable with after just a little spaced repetition and then it's not all bad. There are major cities in those countries with a few exceptionally gnarly ones, though. I don't blame if you're traumatized if you ever found yourself circling Arc de Triomphe in Paris, for example.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  One of the first things I did after getting my driving license was fly to Lisbon and rent a car there. At the time, you left the airport by merging onto a four lane roundabout with essentially no lane markings with people driving like maniacs and 5 or so exits for different highway directions. At the end of that vacation, I was driving a lot more confidently. But I wouldn't recommend that Darwinist approach to learning how to drive in the real world. When done properly, multi lane roundabouts can be quite efficient. They are common in Europe as an alternative to just having a lot of traffic lights at any junction. Some of the bigger ones can also have traffic lights. A good guideline is that if you need to go 3 quarters around, you probably want to be in the left most lane when you enter and move right as you progress. In case of doubt, just go around a second time. If you are too far right, merging left is something you want to be careful with and not necessarily legal in some places. But it's not that different from sorting into the wrong lane for a crossing. You kind of commit to where you exit before you enter. Usually the signage should help. The most annoying thing about roundabouts is the navigation endlessly going "At the roundabout take the second exit" (i.e. go straight on), which gets really annoying if you are on the ring road of some city that has roundabouts every few hundred meters. Which accurately describes a lot of smaller cities across Europe these days. Safe and efficient. But also tedious. If in the Netherlands, beware of your right hand dead angle and be on the lookout for scooters, e-bikes, etc. when you exit a roundabout. You are supposed to yield to them and they can really come out of nowhere.
temporallobe 2y ago
We have a few roundabouts where I live in the USA now, and they are absolutely wonderful, apart from the occasional clueless driver who doesn’t know how to use them, which seem to come in two varieties: 1) blast right into them without yielding or even slowing, or 2) Going the wrong way. In their defense, they probably have never seen them or never learned about them in driving school.
komali2 2y ago
I guess that's somewhere quite remote? I don't see any pedestrian infrastructure and I don't understand how a pedestrian would cross this road safely
- magneticnorth 2y ago
  Yes, it's a few miles outside of the nearest town. It's the intersection of a state highway and some small roads that mostly lead to farmland. Not much pedestrian traffic expected there.
- asteroidburger 2y ago
  https://maps.app.goo.gl/aBMc8ik6B1zZbBPQ7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aBMc8ik6B1zZbBPQ7 It's not quite the middle of nowhere, but definitely quite rural. I wouldn't expect to find pedestrians out there.
buffaloPizzaBoy 2y ago
Whats not mentioned in the article is that this particular intersection has a (15mph residential access road - top right) (25 mph farmland road - bottom) (50mph country highway - left and right) Previously, only drivers from the 15mph and 25mph roads had to stop! Visibility coming from the south would also be terrible to check for incoming highway drivers (left is blocked by foliage, right the road curves out of sight), so getting the highway drivers to slow down is a welcome improvement here. There is also not enough space to add at the intersection here either, its seemingly bordered entirely by private land.
- chrisco255 2y ago
  They can eminent domain whatever land they need to expand the intersection.
  - nullindividual 2y ago
    The area borders wetlands and a very steep hillside where one of the roads intersects. And the regular flow of traffic pre-roundabout was more like 60-65 mph. A roundabout was the correct choice.
    - chrisco255 2y ago
      I'm not arguing about whether the roundabout was the correct choice. However, the department of transportation can eminent domain whatever they want. And neither hillsides nor wetlands are insurmountable for modern civil engineering.
      - nullindividual 2y ago
        Wetlands are highly protected. Hillside (which a road currently resides on) is expensive to “fix”.
  - beowulfey 2y ago
    Eminent domain is not taking the land for free. They mentioned budget as a key reason for the space constraints.
virtualwhys 2y ago
One area where a 4-way stop sign intersection is somewhat superior to a roundabout is the notion of taking turns -- in the States it seems like busy roundabouts are an opportunity for one stream of traffic to just plow through, completely ignoring everyone else who also has something better to do than sit around waiting for others to be courteous :)
albertopv 2y ago
In Italy we had them for 30 years at least, they are everywhere now.
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  30 years?...and only just learning to use indicators whilst using them :-)
zlsa 2y ago
I live near this roundabout and drive through it almost daily. > Drivers going northbound on SR 203 traffic may need to yield twice – once when entering the roundabout and again if traffic is passing between the two islands. If you think about it, that’s just following the same rules a second time. The one key difference from the average (American) roundabout is the second yield. After you've waited your turn and entered the roundabout, you're required to yield again within a few feet. Obviously this is not an impossible task, but the signage leading up to the roundabout from northbound SR 203 doesn't at all indicate the shape of the roundabout. The navigation sign at the entrance only shows a single roundabout. The second yield point is indicated with the standard yield sign and triangle markings on the road. But judging by the amount of detritus scattered on the ground, as well as the recent addition of "YIELD" text painted on the road and orange flags attached to the yield sign (both not present at any other entrance to the roundabout), the yield-twice pattern is not obvious to everyone. Plus, the topology of the roundabout isn't conducive to seeing this from the ground, either; the relatively sharp right turn leading into the roundabout places the second yield sign out of your forward vision when you're approaching the roundabout, and the whole intersection itself is very slightly tilted away from the northbound entrance, making it really tricky to see and understand it when approaching. --- Anecdotally, almost every time I've driven through here while there is simultaneous traffic from northbound SR 203 and northbound 203rd St. SE, the northbound 203rd St. SE traffic ends up being cut off by drivers failing to yield at the second entrance.
- deleted 2y ago
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bane 2y ago
This is oddly timely. I'm travelling in Europe at the moment and have been covering a lot of area with a lot of roundabouts where they would be signaled or signed intersections in the US. They definitely make traffic flow smoothly and I've noticed a few areas where they are used to eliminate dangerous left turns at places like parking lots, you leave turning right, hit the next roundabout to "uturn" then head back the way you wanted to go. As a traffic device they really have lots of different kinds of use cases beyond just an alternative for a 4way. Where I grew up in a rural part of the US, we had one terrible 4-way intersection between two undevided highways. Over time they added lights, then experimented with different signaling systems, but every day it would back up for several miles in a couple directions, and add up to 30 minutes to some commutes. Then there were the inevitable accidents as people tried to rush it, making things worse all around. They replaced it with a roundabout about a decade ago, the population in the area also has increased dramatically in those years as farms turned into suburbs, but the backup is entirely gone. Theres no need any longer to maintain lights and switching systems, and the accidents are almost nil. Nobody has died there in years. People complained at first because it was "weird" then they realized they were complaining at home a half hour ealier than they would have been, so they stopped. They've since added a few more in the area and have even gotten very experimental with a double diamond interchange that's also done a lot of good. There's something in the water at the planners office. Seeing that transformation though and the immediate benefits has turned me into a lifetime fan of the roundabout.
- rob74 2y ago
  I'm living in Germany, where roundabouts are very popular with planners recently. I would say they definitely have their place, but they are also overused. The (smallish) city where I live has a bypass road where for some reason it was decided to use roundabouts (I suspect the same reason why it has so many tight curves - not wanting to purchase too much land). With the result that using the bypass is not much faster than driving through the town, so barely anyone uses it.
  - consp 2y ago
    Sometimes roundabouts are used to limit traffic speed, since you MUST slow down, while keeping the same flow (for the calculated traffic throughput). Maybe that was the purpose. Roundabouts are generally more expensive than intersections due to needing more land works and more land than a normal cross intersection.
OptionOfT 2y ago
The biggest problem with roundabouts the main direction can starve the lesser-used entrances. Imagine the main road going North-South, and you're entering via East to go South. Because of never-ending traffic going North-South you just don't get to enter.
- PetitPrince 2y ago
  You can have several lanes so that the outer one favor going to the nearest exit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/v76ajKvXhzfAdGZ29 https://maps.app.goo.gl/v76ajKvXhzfAdGZ29 Or you can also have dedicated lane that only go to the nearest exit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1G2cJf1pWrBkEE5b8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/1G2cJf1pWrBkEE5b8
  - ifwinterco 2y ago
    Neither of these really solve the problem if you're trying to go anywhere other than the first exit. OP is right, this is an issue with roundabouts and you end up needing traffic lights in this case (at least at peak times)
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      Sometimes tunnels are builds to avoid lights when going straight is the direction favored by the majority but it can force an unwanted loop if you stayed on that lane and you didn't realize in time you had to go right to take the roundabout.
jwHollister 2y ago
I live in Duvall, don't go to Monroe often but that thing is awful. Feels so awkward going through every time.
aitchnyu 2y ago
Are the wide turning trucks supposed to go over the bricks?
- jusssi 2y ago
  Says so, in the first bullet list of the article. "Larger vehicles may drive over the center islands for tight turns."
tmnvix 2y ago
Roundabouts get a lot of praise whenever they're mentioned, and from a traffic flow perspective that's understandable - if by traffic you mean motorised traffic. For pedestrians and cyclists they are worse than the alternative (lights - or even a simple intersection) in my opinion. > Making a roundabout for everyone ctrl-f "walk", "cycl", pedes". Nothing.
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  Citation needed. As a cyclist I prefer roundabouts: they're faster than lights and don't rob my momentum, and they're safer than uncontrolled intersections/4-way stops because all the cars are coming from the same direction. Caveat: this is for simple, single-lane roundabouts. Multi-lane roundabouts are gnarly for cars and worse for cyclists.
  - eCa 2y ago
    In my experience[1], if there’s no bike path roundabouts are better, in particular for left turns. But on a bike path they are usually not much fun, basically requiring negotiating with drivers 270 degrees apart at the same time. My preferred roundabout is separate bikepath that joins the road just before and is a part of the same surface, usually found in bike friendly places. [1] 60000+ km throughout Europe
    - prmoustache 2y ago
      If you are on the bike path it really depends of the configuration and how large they are. Ideally you want te driver to have completed his entry so that he can focus on the bike lane. Best ones are those that have an elevated bike path that is seen as a speedbump for the drivers: they are forced to slow down and look.
  - tmnvix 2y ago
    Apologies. A bit of a blanket statement on my part. There are definitely examples of roundabouts built properly (where cyclists and pedestrians are considered first-class users). Sadly not that common in my experience. Here is an example of the kind of thing I had in mind: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mexZWJ9ZP1yvEJ7k7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/mexZWJ9ZP1yvEJ7k7 As you can see, they are building a pedestrian overbridge on the north side, but consider what you would have to do to traverse in any other place as a pedestrian (or get across anywhere currently). Here's a suggestion from Google (i.e. just pretend you're a car): https://maps.app.goo.gl/AiBoyWk4Z7bFr21z5 https://maps.app.goo.gl/AiBoyWk4Z7bFr21z5 The above is in one of the busiest parts of this city. It's not like there are no people wanting to walk. In fact I found myself in exactly this position here not too long ago. I wanted to get from the mall side to a cafe on the opposite side. I gave up and ate a sad meal in the mall :( Edit: Here's another example (with Google's hilariously impractical suggestion): https://maps.app.goo.gl/pati5dBBTnSgxZ1m9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/pati5dBBTnSgxZ1m9
sflefties 2y ago
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urbandw311er 2y ago
UK reader here (we are pretty much 'all in' on roundabouts) I'm reading this and wondering how they'd cope with the 'Magic Roundabout': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst... Even UK drivers struggle a bit with this one!
- fransje26 2y ago
  As the credited inventors of the modern roundabout, I've always wondered how the UK traffic planners managed to misunderstand their own creation to the point that they come up with such designs.. An other baffling design I've encountered in the UK is a roundabout with traffic lights half-way through.. Wasn't the concept based on removing traffic lights to fluidify traffic..? As a whole, if designers come up with far-fetched designs where drivers struggle to understand what's going on, they are doing something very wrong. Assuming the average driver is already barely in control (phone distraction, screaming kids, lack of sleep, medication, subpar vehicle control, etc), the last thing you want to do is remove even more situational awareness by coming up with over-complicated designs that require serious thinking. The argument that people will slow down because they don't understand what is happening is a fallacious one. Yes, they will slow down, but then, under stress, they will probably default to some instinctive basic reaction which has a high probability of being incorrect, leading to accidents. An illustrative example can be made with traffic videos of American roundabouts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0VJ7Vo5pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0VJ7Vo5pg So in conclusion: Keep It Simple Stupid. (KISS)
  - Plasmoid2000ad 2y ago
    Roundabouts with traffic lights are a bit of a failure alright - and the larger ones are i'd argue not roundabouts at all - they just share the shape. I believe traffic lights are always trying to solve a capacity issue - where the roundabout has hit it's maximum capacity and is suffering some throughput issue, which tend to sort of get exponentially worse. With traffic light sequencing, particularily dynamically, there is always a way to even out the flow - prioritize a flow that is backing up undesirable or give a particular entrance fair chance to enter the roundabout. Though once there are traffic lights on every entrance, plus traffic lights mid roundabout and some/all exits, and explict lane markings and merges I think it's not a roundabout. Slowing down is important though, as it give drivers time to think and react. Whether they choose to use that time correctly is a problem, but hopefully some or all of the other drivers can use patience and avoid an accident. Where accidents happen, I see it's often from mistakes from two drivers, and it's relatively low speed. Better still, accidents are at shallower angles, so injuries are rare. I've heard an statistic that could well be fake that roundabouts have more accidents, but significantly better outcomes overall.
svl 2y ago
No discussion about roundabouts can be complete without a mention of the (mostly) Dutch "turbo roundabout", where the lane you take going into a multi-lane roundabout depends on where you want to exit, and you can't / are not allowed to switch lanes while on it: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:roundabout%3Dturbo https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:roundabout%3Dturbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts https://www.arcadis.com/en-us/knowledge-hub/blog/united-states/brian-moore/2020/bringing-the-turbo-roundabout-to-the-us https://www.arcadis.com/en-us/knowledge-hub/blog/united-stat...
- jen729w 2y ago
  Similarly this is a mandatory mention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst...
  - alt227 2y ago
    Oh come on the Swindon one is the original and best :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)
    - esskay 2y ago
      Hemel's is much more fun to drive around though, it's bigger and has the traditional lack of signage and faded lines as a bit of an extra challenge.
    - moffkalast 2y ago
      > In 2009, it was voted the fourth-scariest junction in Britain Only fourth? Pssh!
- asib 2y ago
  This is literally just how you're supposed to go round any roundabout. Right lane if you're going straight ahead or right (to any extent), left lane otherwise. Anything else _will_ cause crashes, because vehicles will necessarily have to cut across each other to exit the roundabout. The "turbo roundabout" might make this explicit, but it's not different.
dm319 2y ago
A roundabout looks to be more appropriate here compared to the previous junction. The only thing that catches my eye as a UK-driver is the road markings would go against the way we would mark roundabouts in the UK. The dashed lines should indicate where the priority is - and that is on the roundabout, so in the UK there would be lines going across the road as you approach the roundabout, indicating that you are a minor road connected to a major road which has priority. Driving in Morocco is a very special experience. Some roundabouts follow the 'priority on the right', which is a default if the junction doesn't indicate priority, in much of Europe (especially France). This means you give way to those approaching the roundabout, as they are on your right. But there are also roundabouts where you have priority on the roundabout. The only way to tell are to look at the road markings which help to indicate the priority.
ojhughes 2y ago
I thought Americans called them "turning circles"
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Depends where and who you're talking to. Overall though, I'd say it's probably most often roundabout, traffic circle, and rotary (in that order) and I haven't heard much else. And yes, they are different things to traffic nerds, but I mean places (particularly in the NE like Massachusetts) just call them all rotaries regardless what the traffic department teaches https://www.mass.gov/info-details/what-are-roundabouts https://www.mass.gov/info-details/what-are-roundabouts. Of course this could just be banter, in which case: absolutely not, we tout our motors through circular-wirculators just like anybody else!
  - joecool1029 2y ago
    In NJ we have traffic circles which are larger, much higher speed, and consequentially much more dangerous. They have been re-engineering them in recent years to be more like roundabouts but it used to be you could slam around one of them doing 55mph or so without stopping or slowing much to enter (until it backed up). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circles_in_New_Jersey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circles_in_New_Jerse...
larsrc 2y ago
I like to hear from the actual traffic planners. Enough laymen rant about why roads are made the way they are, but there are usually considerations they don't know. I'm very curious what kinds of systems get used for planning and what data they have.
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
Roundabouts are hostile to pedestrians. At a 4-way stop, cars actually stop, and they are forced to pay attention. A roundabout is just a vortex of confused drivers who are paying as much attention to what's behind and to the side as they are to what's in front of them. Much better would be to expand the roundabout and straighten its sides until it's a square block with one-way streets -- and so, no longer a roundabout. The centers of roundabouts are typically overgrown wastes of scraggly grass mixed with litter. Each a tiny sacrifice zone. They remain that way because nobody goes there on foot. We just see the mess from our cars. A roundabout takes what could have been a village green and turns it into something just barely less terrible than a highway cloverleaf. ... So I actually read the article and am not really proven wrong. They do this insipid > Making a roundabout for everyone thing, like laying pavement is the Civil Rights Movement, but "everyone" seems to only mean "vehicles", a word I see several times, together with "drive", but never "walk". I see no crosswalks, no pedestrian flashers, and no bike lanes. And the center island has been designed so larger vehicles can drive over it; I understand their reasons, but that also means it provides less protection to anyone seeking refuge there as they try to get across. Sometimes traffic isn't a problem to be solved. It's the universe telling you that there are already too many cars.
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knallfrosch 2y ago
This is Germany's biggest roundabout, "B17 Kreisverkehr" Features two lanes and five exits, as well as a pass-through bridge for a highway. When you drive on the highway, you don't even see it. https://i.prcdn.co/img?regionKey=W3NBJc2RmiFQ3sgVAHxBDg%3D%3D https://i.prcdn.co/img?regionKey=W3NBJc2RmiFQ3sgVAHxBDg%3D%3...
- niffydroid 2y ago
  I feel like this is something that's pretty normal in the uk
- consp 2y ago
  Plenty of those around here (not all 5 way but you get the jist): https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/50.841903/6.016892 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/50.841903/6.016... https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.404972/5.502611 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.404972/5.502... https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.982028/5.978778 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.982028/5.978... And I raise you the double highway fly over: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.056112/5.122311 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.056112/5.122311 My my local pet peeve of horrible roundabouts, you got cycling paths, a tram line, a bus line with different exit and cars. (the hexagonal cycling path with internal car circle causes the cars to not see a lot of the cycling paths making accidents frequent): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/51.996997/4.354979 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/51.996997/4.354979
tumidpandora 2y ago
Roundabouts are a nuisance, while they offer some merits, the sheer lack of education around how to navigate one makes for a very unpleasant experience in most cases.
- closewith 2y ago
  Roundabouts are incredible, offering throughput and safety benefits. > the sheer lack of education around how to navigate one makes for a very unpleasant experience in most cases. If we're talking about the United States, then the problem is the lack of driver education in general.
- wholinator2 2y ago
  That's how we felt too until a couple years passed and we no longer noticed it. Now that people have learned how it works its much faster than the old stoplight stopsign combo
- _Microft 2y ago
  How do they fail to use a roundabout properly? Any problem I can think of is not limited to roundabouts themselves.
- floatrock 2y ago
  "We don't have experience with a new better system so we must never adopt it." And so the lack of experience continues on forever. Come on, man, people will figure it out. There will always be the dashcam vid of the yokel who tries to make a left into one despite the obvious signage and directional nudges, but dashcam youtube has shown us there's always people out there who have no common sense and should not have a license. Just pop some popcorn and continue scrolling.
- hotspot_one 2y ago
  Wait, what is the nuisance-- the roundabout of the lack of education? What happens if we replace "roundabout" with "stop sign" in your statement and assume a population that was never trained on what "stop sign" means? Would that work better?
simonebrunozzi 2y ago
Just by looking at it, I immediately thought that it's a very poor design. Waiting a few months to see what happens with real traffic...
zamadatix 2y ago
Given the amount of space if I were driving through it I'd wish they had just made it a little larger so it could be a normal "full circle" roundabout. Sometimes the biggest problems with roundabouts is the number of variations. "You can use this lane to go that way here but a mile up if you want to go that way you want to make sure you're in the other lane". Not to mention it seems somewhat easy to speed through without even bothering to slow down for certain entrance/exit pairs.
- mannykannot 2y ago
  Yes, this leaves me with an uneasy feeling: "Drivers going northbound on SR 203 traffic may need to yield twice – once when entering the roundabout and again if traffic is passing between the two islands. If you think about it, that’s just following the same rules a second time." [my emphasis.] Firstly, of course, if you are new to it and have not heard about it in advance, you won't have much time to think about it. Secondly, if your mental model of a roundabout is "yield to enter, then you have right of way", this will seem counter-intuitive. I hope they put up a yield sign and corresponding road markings at that point, but the latter are not there in the accompanying aerial photo. I am also curious as to how navigation systems will tell drivers how to negotiate this roundabout. They have trouble with a somewhat similar roundabout in Kingston NY, at the intersection of Albany ave., Broadway and Colonel Chandler drive. Update: The accompanying video shows there will be yield lines at the point I am concerned about, but it is also ambiguous about how the rules of the road apply there: "The circulating roadway goes around and between both central islands... Those drivers already in the circulating roadway have the right-of-way." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_m7HHiZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_m7HHiZRw
- timdiggerm 2y ago
  Did you read the blog post? >The new roundabout needed to be built in the same space as the old intersection. To the east is a steep hill. To the southwest there are protected wetlands. There wasn’t space or budget to mitigate the potential impact in either direction.
  - zamadatix 2y ago
bkus 2y ago
Having driven this roundabout, it's a disaster. Way too cramped and narrow with sharp angles. The multitude of islands is confusing.
- dathinab 2y ago
  is it even a roundabout or just a strange 3 way intersection? like in a normal roundabout you always yield to the people in the roundabout basically assuring things won't get "stuck" if one road has much more traffic then another but on the picture it looks (through the lines) as if the people in roundabout have to yield in which case it wouldn't technically be a roundabout but just a 3 way intersection which separated and lanes to archive some traffic flow optimizations and calming as necessary (as such the sharp edges might angels might be very much intentional) and I agree it looks confusing but it also looks like it will slow down traffic in all but one of the directions EDIT: Photos on google maps have much more sane lane markings and it resolves the question if you have to yield when entering it (yes you have). It generally looks much less confusing there.
jlukic 2y ago
Roundabouts always make think about the two parts of problem optimization, determining your objective function then optimizing. Many classical failure states for real world problems seem to involve having an OF that is incorrect then prematurely optimizing. Think of the rich guy who wants “love at all costs” and then pursues women with expensive gifts and fancy restaurants. You may achieve your aim but perhaps you won’t get what you want. I think the same is true of roundabouts. One part of the experience that seems almost never to be mentioned is the experience for a passenger when encountering a series of roundabouts. Let’s say you had some bad oysters and are resting your head in the back of the car on a pillow and praying you can make it home before you upchuck your dinner. Perhaps some road engineer decided to put 5 or so roundabouts consecutively to “optimize traffic flow” then somewhere around spin number 3 you lose your stomach on the backseat. Perhaps the trip was not “optimal” for you.
n4r9 2y ago
> even our designers don’t know of any similar roundabouts this small Mini-roundabouts are commonplace in the UK, e.g.: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4072632,-0.2739497,3a,29.6y,6.58h,80.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv8Rmtw9PvH4MiUlajHVVyw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4072632,-0.2739497,3a,29.6y,...
skeeter2020 2y ago
I really like roundabouts and they are starting to catch on in parts of NA; now we just need a generation of drivers who know how to navigate them.

190 points by aendruk 2y ago

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asynchronous 2y ago

At first glance I’m confused how to navigate it- a flowchart would be nice. Or just a video of traffic using it.

9021007 2y ago
The article has a video
btbuilder 2y ago
There’s a link in the article but here it is with a time code for the start of the simulation. https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw?t=39 https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw?t=39
pwg 2y ago
About half way in to the article is a link to a youtube video.
presentation 2y ago
I think this is what it’s supposed to be like https://imgur.com/a/nsh80tf https://imgur.com/a/nsh80tf
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marssaxman 2y ago

I'm glad they're excited, but I hope I never encounter this.

ajb 2y ago
It may be unusual there, but in the UK we have loads. Some are smaller than this: the minimum roundabout is just a paint circle. They aren't a problem Most people here actually prefer roundabouts to traffic lights because you keep moving (although this is partly selection bias- traffic lights are deployed at junctions where a roundabout would fail to evenly arbitrate the different flows )
- nullspace 2y ago
  You may feel less enthusiastic about it once you watch the linked video. I wouldn’t exactly call it a roundabout. That’s only what’s at the center of it.
  - ajb 2y ago
    Ok fair enough, that extra bit does make it slightly more complicated. Having said that though, I would not be fazed by this, and I don't think many UK drivers would be - because we already deal with many that have more parts. When I was learning to drive, I found a particular triple roundabout quite painful but no longer have any difficulty. There are two skills you need to pick up to deal with any roundabout system. The first is judgement of how distant other vehicles need to be before you can enter. As a learner I used to irritate the drivers behind me by being far too cautious; on a busy roundabout you can't expect an enormous gap, so you need to know what length of gap the other drivers will expect you to take advantage of. This you can only learn from experience. The other is to plan your route, because you need to choose your entry lane based on where you want to go. These days your navigation app will probably tell you the best entry lane.
- andreareina 2y ago
  You guys like roundabouts so much you've gone recursive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) (To be clear I like roundabouts)
  - ajb 2y ago

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nostromo 2y ago

Seattle Department of Transportation and Washington State DOT have honestly gotten way too creative. It's like every city, every locale, and sometimes every street has a new collection of obstacles and rules to circumnavigate. Roundabouts are great, but they should probably be round. In this case, it seems that it'd be easy to navigate if the two roads were brought into a single, simple roundabout intersection like you see at any other location.

jghn 2y ago
It is intentional. The idea is to force drivers to reduce speed, and the mechanism is because it isn't familiar to the drivers. The claim is it forces them to be thoughtful. Whether or not it works or is a good idea is not something on which I'm opining.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  It's basically always safer to make a higher speed driver uncomfortable continuing at high speed. Reducing high speed through driver discomfort is 99% of what saves lives in road design.
- deleted 2y ago
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blamazon 2y ago
The article explains why they made the decision not to do a traditional dog-bone interchange with two circular roundabouts. Namely, there were right of way limitations and a need to incorporate heavy farm trucks making a left turn. So, they ended up with basically 1.5 roundabouts which represents a simplification over the dog bone.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
The lack of turn signal usage in the region also makes funky roundabouts much harder to navigate. Like you have to wait until there is a large enough gap in the cars to enter the circle, even if none of the cars actually end up intersecting your path.

nixosbestos 2y ago

Apparently I'm sticking my neck out here, but it really doesn't seem that hard. Overhead, I can intuit the path I would take, and if I imagine it first-person, it seems even more obvious. It's frustrating riding with certain other American drivers in other countries. I've met numerous folks now that seem upset that they have to actually pay attention to their driving and the traffic. Meanwhile I'm horrified that they're apparently just ... completely on auto-pilot in the US.

509engr 2y ago
No, you're definitely not the only one who likes them. Some folks complain about them when they first go in, but they tend to figure it out. WSDOT has been encouraging them for a few years now, and my town has several new roundabouts as a result -- and lots of other cities across the state are using them. They've made navigating those intersections way easier, reduced traffic "waiting times", and generally improved safety versus a lighted intersection. I'm glad they're continuing to find ways to make them work. It seemed when I was growing up in NJ, the state DOT was taking out the giant roundabouts that they were famous for, and now in Washington, they're having a huge resurgence.
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  Huge roundabouts are very dangerous; the safety factor in the modern ones WA installs is that they are tight and slow, which reduces the severity of any crashes. It also does not help that NJ is the only state in the US that does not have a consistent rule about roundabout traffic priority.
- themadturk 2y ago
  I agree, Washington does seem to at least aspire to better roundabouts than some places I've heard of. The one rule I see to be truly necessary is "yield to oncoming traffic from the left." I still get confused at the big roundabout in Kent, after coming off Highway 167 at Willis Street, but most others I've encountered are fine, despite the drivers who still want to stop before proceeding onto them even when there's no other traffic.
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code_runner 2y ago

US here. There seems to be an obsession at the moment with adding roundabouts in my area. They don’t always fit where they are put. Some of them have a stop sign in the roundabout? When asked why, the answer is reducing “points of conflict”, which is a static variable. There aren’t actually studies being done before or after to see if makes the flow of traffic better. They are also adding them in walkable areas with the express intent of “traffic never stopping” which doesn’t go well with pedestrians crossing the street. I think we can find better ways to spend money… including the salaries of the people dreaming up bizarre applications for these things.

rootusrootus 2y ago
> Some of them have a stop sign in the roundabout? Traffic gets much heavier and we'll need stop signs at our roundabout near my house. During rush hour it has predominantly one flow of traffic and nobody slows down below 30-35 mph so getting into the roundabout can be difficult. A stop sign would defeat some of the point of a roundabout but it may become necessary to enforce safety.
- thepaulmcbride 2y ago
  In the UK a lot of roundabouts have traffic signals for this purpose that only turn on during busy times.
- zamadatix 2y ago
  How big are the roundabouts? I've read one of the problems that can be had is smaller ones, like in this picture, allow drivers to go through at high speed unimpeded. The "ideal" design seems to be to wiggle the road the opposite direction of the turning motion then force going around a decent sized center. In this way going around a roundabout quickly isn't impossible... but going 35 mph would make most feel quite uneasy. The downside is it greatly amplifies one of the biggest roundabout downsides: the amount of space needed.

id00 2y ago

Australian who lived in Washington state for 4.5 years. Very happy to see those kind of changes. Much better and safer than 4-way stop intersections and I hope American drivers will figure out eventually how to use them

rootusrootus 2y ago
Aside from one old lady that I saw doing laps a few years ago after our nearby roundabout first opened, it seems like most people figure it out pretty quickly. But they're too comfortable with it, and most people blast through without even hitting the brakes. That brings its own problems.
- globular-toast 2y ago
  I did wonder that. The article says it "slows traffic" but looking at the picture it's basically just lines painted on the ground. Does it really slow anything? A proper roundabout with a fully raised centre not only slows people down but forces you round so any collisions that do happen are minor glancing ones rather than catastrophic perpendicular ones.
  - thinkingemote 2y ago
    Generally, they are designed to naturally make the driver slow a little to see other cars on approach. Often it's paired with slight turns just before the intersection which also does the same thing partly. Some places (most?) actually put obstacles like trees to make it harder to see other cars from further away. I suppose it depends on what is meant by traffic and I suppose it does depend on whether "slows traffic" means slowing down compared to just zooming past with a green, or drives at a slow speed. I would think that a) it slows traffic compared with zooming past and b) it's not that slower On average, I suppose, smoothly moving traffic at slightly slower speeds will be more efficient than 3 lanes of stopped traffic and 1 of fast.

lolinder 2y ago

Keep in mind that a lot of these traffic devices look way more confusing from above than they actually look while on the ground. From above you can see the whole device at once, and trying to trace a path through it can feel overwhelming, but when you're actually going through it your view is usually restricted in ways that limit your perceived choices at any point in time.

lmm 2y ago
I'd say just the opposite. Indeed, in the UK it's normal for the signs leading up to a roundabout to include an overhead map view, since that's often the easiest way to understand what you need to do to get where you want to.
- meowster 2y ago
  I imagine you're referring to a simple line drawing (with labels)?
  - dave333 2y ago
    For example - Britain's most notorious roundabout https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5622263,-1.7713205,3a,48.7y,332.14h,96.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6zJURGdk-dyrucuw28391g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m2!1e2!1e4?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MDkyOS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5622263,-1.7713205,3a,48.7y,...
    - StuPC2000 2y ago
      I grew up in this town, and even had to navigate this Magic Roundabout on my driving test. It's not so bad once you understand how it operates, but you have to pay attention.
    - esskay 2y ago
      Similar with Hemel's: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7458345,-0.4742799,3a,75y,21.28h,79.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHkT805WwSU3eAME_FVgF7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m2!1e4!1e2?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7458345,-0.4742799,3a,75y,21... The map/diagram helps people not familar, the only really complicated thing is making sure you get in the right lane, and keeping an eye on those around you.

asimjalis 2y ago

I would recommend some yield signs; the dashed line on the ground is easy to miss.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

We are getting similar one here [0]. Whenever you get there you try to get out asap. It’s a nightmare. 0: https://maps.app.goo.gl/BxmPqsf41p639Vy88?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/BxmPqsf41p639Vy88?g_st=ic

thepaulmcbride 2y ago

I live in the US now, but originally from Ireland. My least favourite part of US road infrastructure is the 4 way stop. They are just not good compared to a roundabout. Half the time the only way you can tell it’s an all way stop is by looking for the back of the stop signs on the perpendicular road. With a roundabout, you only have to look in one direction, and if it’s clear, you don’t even have to stop.

dave333 2y ago
That is a good way to have an accident - I know since I've done it. While "looking one way" on a USA counterclockwise roundabout you are looking left to see traffic already on the roundabout and if clear you go and run smack into the back of the vehicle ahead of you who for some reason stalled or hesitated or just judged the traffic differently. However it will be a low speed accident.
- sierra1011 2y ago
  As a general rule, one should be looking in the direction in which the vehicle is traveling. It's easily done though, if rushing, or if the vehicle in front pulls away slightly but stops again.
bfdm 2y ago
Yep. Canada suburbs here. We're starting to see roundabouts used more often for what would be higher traffic four-ways or inconvenient lights. They're great, both as a driver and as a cyclist. Lower conflict risk, simple rules to proceed. IMO all smaller 4 way stops should become what I've described as trash can roundabouts. Small island to circle around. So much better than stop signs.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  In Seattle, we have trash can roundabout (really just round traffic calming islands, we don’t consider them roundabouts) and stop signs at the same intersections.
- 2y ago

AngryData 2y ago

I fail to see how this helps over more traditional designs. Not to mention tight roundabouts always have horrible curbs that trucks have to smash into to try and jump over to make the turns, and they are never gentle bumps, they are always tire and curb damaging trash, especially for heavy loads which are primarily the vehicles that need to jump the curbs. All the roundabouts around me I wish they would just get rid of, I can navigate them just fine, but they are way too small, over congested, and dangerous because the 5 seconds you have to read the signs as you approach to know whats going on is too much for anyone non-local which makes them unpredictable and nervous drivers.

nine_k 2y ago
OTOH if you can't read the sign where to turn right, you can keep turning left, make a full circle, and check the signs again, and again if needed, in under half a minute. All without creating a problem to anyone around you, and being safe yourself. I'll take it any time over a typical highway exit; if you miss it, or uf you take a wrong one, it's usually dozens of miles before you have a chance to take any corrective action at all.
foota 2y ago
For one, roundabouts turn what would be a T-Bone intersection into a glancing hit. I think that's the biggest safety benefit. They also improve the flow of traffic since there's no starting and stopping (think of it like a stoplight is a mutex lock and a roundabout is a spinlock).
- bobthepanda 2y ago
  And because they have no electronic or moving parts, the upkeep is minimal. There is some cost to a traffic light, particularly as you start adding weird phases and whatnot.
nullindividual 2y ago
There is no room for a traditional roundabout in this location and the gravel trucks from the nearby quarry can hop the very short curbs as needed. This roundabout is perfectly fine in practice.

freditup 2y ago

The picture of the roundabout from above at the beginning of the article is extra confusing because it doesn't have the final lane markings yet and the ones you can see are misleading. The (presumably) final markings[0] make things less confusing. [0]: https://www.google.com/maps/place/High+Rock+Rd,+Washington+98272/@47.8121607,-121.9826373,89m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x549aa0b779ae6ff3:0x66ffe2ef35ece7a6!8m2!3d47.8059769!4d-121.9660415!16s%2Fg%2F1v44q3pw?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/place/High+Rock+Rd,+Washington+9...

jayyhu 2y ago
They made a video that explains how to navigate the roundabout, and shows what it will actually look like (with yield markings)[1] [1]: https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw https://youtu.be/07_m7HHiZRw
- SamBam 2y ago
  Um, if your new traffic feature requires an explanatory video, then you've done something wrong...
- Karellen 2y ago
  What the hell is that "dump truck with trailer" on a really long connector at 3:50? Is that a thing in some parts? How does that navigate almost any kind of roadway safely?
  - knallfrosch 2y ago
    I guess that's exaggerated to proof that it works?
  - btbuildem 2y ago
    They're called "pup" trailers [1] (example photo [2]), and the very long hitch exists for a few reasons: per-axle weight limit, respecting max weight capacity of smaller bridges, and ease of unloading [3] among them. 1: https://titanww.com/what-is-a-pup-trailer/ https://titanww.com/what-is-a-pup-trailer/ 2: https://imgur.com/raDJVVL https://imgur.com/raDJVVL 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5L_2TMjKc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU5L_2TMjKc (sorry, terrible handheld video)

nullindividual 2y ago

I drive through this roundabout. It’s such a huge improvement. And little confusing at first due to being two roundabouts in one, but not hard to navigate.

mozzieman 2y ago

The comment section on the youtube video is soo good. Everyone seem to almost have accidents and everyone complaining. Think prob they need to work a bit on this design.

Schiendelman 2y ago
The fact that the learning curve is "almost" crashes means it's working well.

twelve40 2y ago

At least that one is small. They'd know for sure from the change in numbers pretty soon if it improved things or not. But for multi-lane ones I absolutely lose my shit and freak out when I get into one. Many decades of driving experience, but when in Europe (France, Italy, Spain) i encounter a multi-lane roundabout, every time it feels extremely confusing and unpredictable. People moving in all directions, cars, scooters, you need to calculate which lane you need to get into, and get out of, and do all that while accommodating crisscrossing neighboring vehicles who are all also trying to maneuver in every direction. Having to turn the entire time makes it feel very fast and dangerous, always paranoid about crushing some scooter that I didn't spot from one of the many angles while turning. Doesn't seem to get easier with time for me either, unlike all other driving. Glad we don't have multi-lane roundabouts in CA.

Legogris 2y ago
IME (also observing other drivers), the usual multi-lane roundabouts are something you get comfortable with after just a little spaced repetition and then it's not all bad. There are major cities in those countries with a few exceptionally gnarly ones, though. I don't blame if you're traumatized if you ever found yourself circling Arc de Triomphe in Paris, for example.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
One of the first things I did after getting my driving license was fly to Lisbon and rent a car there. At the time, you left the airport by merging onto a four lane roundabout with essentially no lane markings with people driving like maniacs and 5 or so exits for different highway directions. At the end of that vacation, I was driving a lot more confidently. But I wouldn't recommend that Darwinist approach to learning how to drive in the real world. When done properly, multi lane roundabouts can be quite efficient. They are common in Europe as an alternative to just having a lot of traffic lights at any junction. Some of the bigger ones can also have traffic lights. A good guideline is that if you need to go 3 quarters around, you probably want to be in the left most lane when you enter and move right as you progress. In case of doubt, just go around a second time. If you are too far right, merging left is something you want to be careful with and not necessarily legal in some places. But it's not that different from sorting into the wrong lane for a crossing. You kind of commit to where you exit before you enter. Usually the signage should help. The most annoying thing about roundabouts is the navigation endlessly going "At the roundabout take the second exit" (i.e. go straight on), which gets really annoying if you are on the ring road of some city that has roundabouts every few hundred meters. Which accurately describes a lot of smaller cities across Europe these days. Safe and efficient. But also tedious. If in the Netherlands, beware of your right hand dead angle and be on the lookout for scooters, e-bikes, etc. when you exit a roundabout. You are supposed to yield to them and they can really come out of nowhere.

temporallobe 2y ago

We have a few roundabouts where I live in the USA now, and they are absolutely wonderful, apart from the occasional clueless driver who doesn’t know how to use them, which seem to come in two varieties: 1) blast right into them without yielding or even slowing, or 2) Going the wrong way. In their defense, they probably have never seen them or never learned about them in driving school.

komali2 2y ago

I guess that's somewhere quite remote? I don't see any pedestrian infrastructure and I don't understand how a pedestrian would cross this road safely

magneticnorth 2y ago
Yes, it's a few miles outside of the nearest town. It's the intersection of a state highway and some small roads that mostly lead to farmland. Not much pedestrian traffic expected there.
asteroidburger 2y ago
https://maps.app.goo.gl/aBMc8ik6B1zZbBPQ7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/aBMc8ik6B1zZbBPQ7 It's not quite the middle of nowhere, but definitely quite rural. I wouldn't expect to find pedestrians out there.

buffaloPizzaBoy 2y ago

Whats not mentioned in the article is that this particular intersection has a (15mph residential access road - top right) (25 mph farmland road - bottom) (50mph country highway - left and right) Previously, only drivers from the 15mph and 25mph roads had to stop! Visibility coming from the south would also be terrible to check for incoming highway drivers (left is blocked by foliage, right the road curves out of sight), so getting the highway drivers to slow down is a welcome improvement here. There is also not enough space to add at the intersection here either, its seemingly bordered entirely by private land.

chrisco255 2y ago
They can eminent domain whatever land they need to expand the intersection.
- nullindividual 2y ago
  The area borders wetlands and a very steep hillside where one of the roads intersects. And the regular flow of traffic pre-roundabout was more like 60-65 mph. A roundabout was the correct choice.
  - chrisco255 2y ago
    I'm not arguing about whether the roundabout was the correct choice. However, the department of transportation can eminent domain whatever they want. And neither hillsides nor wetlands are insurmountable for modern civil engineering.
    - nullindividual 2y ago
      Wetlands are highly protected. Hillside (which a road currently resides on) is expensive to “fix”.
- beowulfey 2y ago
  Eminent domain is not taking the land for free. They mentioned budget as a key reason for the space constraints.

virtualwhys 2y ago

One area where a 4-way stop sign intersection is somewhat superior to a roundabout is the notion of taking turns -- in the States it seems like busy roundabouts are an opportunity for one stream of traffic to just plow through, completely ignoring everyone else who also has something better to do than sit around waiting for others to be courteous :)

albertopv 2y ago

In Italy we had them for 30 years at least, they are everywhere now.

Ylpertnodi 2y ago
30 years?...and only just learning to use indicators whilst using them :-)

zlsa 2y ago

I live near this roundabout and drive through it almost daily. > Drivers going northbound on SR 203 traffic may need to yield twice – once when entering the roundabout and again if traffic is passing between the two islands. If you think about it, that’s just following the same rules a second time. The one key difference from the average (American) roundabout is the second yield. After you've waited your turn and entered the roundabout, you're required to yield again within a few feet. Obviously this is not an impossible task, but the signage leading up to the roundabout from northbound SR 203 doesn't at all indicate the shape of the roundabout. The navigation sign at the entrance only shows a single roundabout. The second yield point is indicated with the standard yield sign and triangle markings on the road. But judging by the amount of detritus scattered on the ground, as well as the recent addition of "YIELD" text painted on the road and orange flags attached to the yield sign (both not present at any other entrance to the roundabout), the yield-twice pattern is not obvious to everyone. Plus, the topology of the roundabout isn't conducive to seeing this from the ground, either; the relatively sharp right turn leading into the roundabout places the second yield sign out of your forward vision when you're approaching the roundabout, and the whole intersection itself is very slightly tilted away from the northbound entrance, making it really tricky to see and understand it when approaching. --- Anecdotally, almost every time I've driven through here while there is simultaneous traffic from northbound SR 203 and northbound 203rd St. SE, the northbound 203rd St. SE traffic ends up being cut off by drivers failing to yield at the second entrance.

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bane 2y ago

This is oddly timely. I'm travelling in Europe at the moment and have been covering a lot of area with a lot of roundabouts where they would be signaled or signed intersections in the US. They definitely make traffic flow smoothly and I've noticed a few areas where they are used to eliminate dangerous left turns at places like parking lots, you leave turning right, hit the next roundabout to "uturn" then head back the way you wanted to go. As a traffic device they really have lots of different kinds of use cases beyond just an alternative for a 4way. Where I grew up in a rural part of the US, we had one terrible 4-way intersection between two undevided highways. Over time they added lights, then experimented with different signaling systems, but every day it would back up for several miles in a couple directions, and add up to 30 minutes to some commutes. Then there were the inevitable accidents as people tried to rush it, making things worse all around. They replaced it with a roundabout about a decade ago, the population in the area also has increased dramatically in those years as farms turned into suburbs, but the backup is entirely gone. Theres no need any longer to maintain lights and switching systems, and the accidents are almost nil. Nobody has died there in years. People complained at first because it was "weird" then they realized they were complaining at home a half hour ealier than they would have been, so they stopped. They've since added a few more in the area and have even gotten very experimental with a double diamond interchange that's also done a lot of good. There's something in the water at the planners office. Seeing that transformation though and the immediate benefits has turned me into a lifetime fan of the roundabout.

rob74 2y ago
I'm living in Germany, where roundabouts are very popular with planners recently. I would say they definitely have their place, but they are also overused. The (smallish) city where I live has a bypass road where for some reason it was decided to use roundabouts (I suspect the same reason why it has so many tight curves - not wanting to purchase too much land). With the result that using the bypass is not much faster than driving through the town, so barely anyone uses it.
- consp 2y ago
  Sometimes roundabouts are used to limit traffic speed, since you MUST slow down, while keeping the same flow (for the calculated traffic throughput). Maybe that was the purpose. Roundabouts are generally more expensive than intersections due to needing more land works and more land than a normal cross intersection.

OptionOfT 2y ago

The biggest problem with roundabouts the main direction can starve the lesser-used entrances. Imagine the main road going North-South, and you're entering via East to go South. Because of never-ending traffic going North-South you just don't get to enter.

PetitPrince 2y ago
You can have several lanes so that the outer one favor going to the nearest exit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/v76ajKvXhzfAdGZ29 https://maps.app.goo.gl/v76ajKvXhzfAdGZ29 Or you can also have dedicated lane that only go to the nearest exit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1G2cJf1pWrBkEE5b8 https://maps.app.goo.gl/1G2cJf1pWrBkEE5b8
- ifwinterco 2y ago
  Neither of these really solve the problem if you're trying to go anywhere other than the first exit. OP is right, this is an issue with roundabouts and you end up needing traffic lights in this case (at least at peak times)
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    Sometimes tunnels are builds to avoid lights when going straight is the direction favored by the majority but it can force an unwanted loop if you stayed on that lane and you didn't realize in time you had to go right to take the roundabout.

jwHollister 2y ago

I live in Duvall, don't go to Monroe often but that thing is awful. Feels so awkward going through every time.

aitchnyu 2y ago

Are the wide turning trucks supposed to go over the bricks?

jusssi 2y ago
Says so, in the first bullet list of the article. "Larger vehicles may drive over the center islands for tight turns."

tmnvix 2y ago

Roundabouts get a lot of praise whenever they're mentioned, and from a traffic flow perspective that's understandable - if by traffic you mean motorised traffic. For pedestrians and cyclists they are worse than the alternative (lights - or even a simple intersection) in my opinion. > Making a roundabout for everyone ctrl-f "walk", "cycl", pedes". Nothing.

teractiveodular 2y ago
Citation needed. As a cyclist I prefer roundabouts: they're faster than lights and don't rob my momentum, and they're safer than uncontrolled intersections/4-way stops because all the cars are coming from the same direction. Caveat: this is for simple, single-lane roundabouts. Multi-lane roundabouts are gnarly for cars and worse for cyclists.
- eCa 2y ago
  In my experience[1], if there’s no bike path roundabouts are better, in particular for left turns. But on a bike path they are usually not much fun, basically requiring negotiating with drivers 270 degrees apart at the same time. My preferred roundabout is separate bikepath that joins the road just before and is a part of the same surface, usually found in bike friendly places. [1] 60000+ km throughout Europe
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    If you are on the bike path it really depends of the configuration and how large they are. Ideally you want te driver to have completed his entry so that he can focus on the bike lane. Best ones are those that have an elevated bike path that is seen as a speedbump for the drivers: they are forced to slow down and look.
- tmnvix 2y ago
  Apologies. A bit of a blanket statement on my part. There are definitely examples of roundabouts built properly (where cyclists and pedestrians are considered first-class users). Sadly not that common in my experience. Here is an example of the kind of thing I had in mind: https://maps.app.goo.gl/mexZWJ9ZP1yvEJ7k7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/mexZWJ9ZP1yvEJ7k7 As you can see, they are building a pedestrian overbridge on the north side, but consider what you would have to do to traverse in any other place as a pedestrian (or get across anywhere currently). Here's a suggestion from Google (i.e. just pretend you're a car): https://maps.app.goo.gl/AiBoyWk4Z7bFr21z5 https://maps.app.goo.gl/AiBoyWk4Z7bFr21z5 The above is in one of the busiest parts of this city. It's not like there are no people wanting to walk. In fact I found myself in exactly this position here not too long ago. I wanted to get from the mall side to a cafe on the opposite side. I gave up and ate a sad meal in the mall :( Edit: Here's another example (with Google's hilariously impractical suggestion): https://maps.app.goo.gl/pati5dBBTnSgxZ1m9 https://maps.app.goo.gl/pati5dBBTnSgxZ1m9

sflefties 2y ago

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urbandw311er 2y ago

UK reader here (we are pretty much 'all in' on roundabouts) I'm reading this and wondering how they'd cope with the 'Magic Roundabout': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst... Even UK drivers struggle a bit with this one!

fransje26 2y ago
As the credited inventors of the modern roundabout, I've always wondered how the UK traffic planners managed to misunderstand their own creation to the point that they come up with such designs.. An other baffling design I've encountered in the UK is a roundabout with traffic lights half-way through.. Wasn't the concept based on removing traffic lights to fluidify traffic..? As a whole, if designers come up with far-fetched designs where drivers struggle to understand what's going on, they are doing something very wrong. Assuming the average driver is already barely in control (phone distraction, screaming kids, lack of sleep, medication, subpar vehicle control, etc), the last thing you want to do is remove even more situational awareness by coming up with over-complicated designs that require serious thinking. The argument that people will slow down because they don't understand what is happening is a fallacious one. Yes, they will slow down, but then, under stress, they will probably default to some instinctive basic reaction which has a high probability of being incorrect, leading to accidents. An illustrative example can be made with traffic videos of American roundabouts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0VJ7Vo5pg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu0VJ7Vo5pg So in conclusion: Keep It Simple Stupid. (KISS)
- Plasmoid2000ad 2y ago
  Roundabouts with traffic lights are a bit of a failure alright - and the larger ones are i'd argue not roundabouts at all - they just share the shape. I believe traffic lights are always trying to solve a capacity issue - where the roundabout has hit it's maximum capacity and is suffering some throughput issue, which tend to sort of get exponentially worse. With traffic light sequencing, particularily dynamically, there is always a way to even out the flow - prioritize a flow that is backing up undesirable or give a particular entrance fair chance to enter the roundabout. Though once there are traffic lights on every entrance, plus traffic lights mid roundabout and some/all exits, and explict lane markings and merges I think it's not a roundabout. Slowing down is important though, as it give drivers time to think and react. Whether they choose to use that time correctly is a problem, but hopefully some or all of the other drivers can use patience and avoid an accident. Where accidents happen, I see it's often from mistakes from two drivers, and it's relatively low speed. Better still, accidents are at shallower angles, so injuries are rare. I've heard an statistic that could well be fake that roundabouts have more accidents, but significantly better outcomes overall.

svl 2y ago

No discussion about roundabouts can be complete without a mention of the (mostly) Dutch "turbo roundabout", where the lane you take going into a multi-lane roundabout depends on where you want to exit, and you can't / are not allowed to switch lanes while on it: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:roundabout%3Dturbo https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:roundabout%3Dturbo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Turbo_roundabouts https://www.arcadis.com/en-us/knowledge-hub/blog/united-states/brian-moore/2020/bringing-the-turbo-roundabout-to-the-us https://www.arcadis.com/en-us/knowledge-hub/blog/united-stat...

jen729w 2y ago
Similarly this is a mandatory mention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempstead) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Hemel_Hempst...
- alt227 2y ago
  Oh come on the Swindon one is the original and best :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_Roundabout_(Swindon)
  - esskay 2y ago
    Hemel's is much more fun to drive around though, it's bigger and has the traditional lack of signage and faded lines as a bit of an extra challenge.
  - moffkalast 2y ago
    > In 2009, it was voted the fourth-scariest junction in Britain Only fourth? Pssh!
asib 2y ago
This is literally just how you're supposed to go round any roundabout. Right lane if you're going straight ahead or right (to any extent), left lane otherwise. Anything else _will_ cause crashes, because vehicles will necessarily have to cut across each other to exit the roundabout. The "turbo roundabout" might make this explicit, but it's not different.

dm319 2y ago

A roundabout looks to be more appropriate here compared to the previous junction. The only thing that catches my eye as a UK-driver is the road markings would go against the way we would mark roundabouts in the UK. The dashed lines should indicate where the priority is - and that is on the roundabout, so in the UK there would be lines going across the road as you approach the roundabout, indicating that you are a minor road connected to a major road which has priority. Driving in Morocco is a very special experience. Some roundabouts follow the 'priority on the right', which is a default if the junction doesn't indicate priority, in much of Europe (especially France). This means you give way to those approaching the roundabout, as they are on your right. But there are also roundabouts where you have priority on the roundabout. The only way to tell are to look at the road markings which help to indicate the priority.

ojhughes 2y ago

I thought Americans called them "turning circles"

zamadatix 2y ago
Depends where and who you're talking to. Overall though, I'd say it's probably most often roundabout, traffic circle, and rotary (in that order) and I haven't heard much else. And yes, they are different things to traffic nerds, but I mean places (particularly in the NE like Massachusetts) just call them all rotaries regardless what the traffic department teaches https://www.mass.gov/info-details/what-are-roundabouts https://www.mass.gov/info-details/what-are-roundabouts. Of course this could just be banter, in which case: absolutely not, we tout our motors through circular-wirculators just like anybody else!
- joecool1029 2y ago
  In NJ we have traffic circles which are larger, much higher speed, and consequentially much more dangerous. They have been re-engineering them in recent years to be more like roundabouts but it used to be you could slam around one of them doing 55mph or so without stopping or slowing much to enter (until it backed up). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circles_in_New_Jersey https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_circles_in_New_Jerse...

larsrc 2y ago

I like to hear from the actual traffic planners. Enough laymen rant about why roads are made the way they are, but there are usually considerations they don't know. I'm very curious what kinds of systems get used for planning and what data they have.

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago

Roundabouts are hostile to pedestrians. At a 4-way stop, cars actually stop, and they are forced to pay attention. A roundabout is just a vortex of confused drivers who are paying as much attention to what's behind and to the side as they are to what's in front of them. Much better would be to expand the roundabout and straighten its sides until it's a square block with one-way streets -- and so, no longer a roundabout. The centers of roundabouts are typically overgrown wastes of scraggly grass mixed with litter. Each a tiny sacrifice zone. They remain that way because nobody goes there on foot. We just see the mess from our cars. A roundabout takes what could have been a village green and turns it into something just barely less terrible than a highway cloverleaf. ... So I actually read the article and am not really proven wrong. They do this insipid > Making a roundabout for everyone thing, like laying pavement is the Civil Rights Movement, but "everyone" seems to only mean "vehicles", a word I see several times, together with "drive", but never "walk". I see no crosswalks, no pedestrian flashers, and no bike lanes. And the center island has been designed so larger vehicles can drive over it; I understand their reasons, but that also means it provides less protection to anyone seeking refuge there as they try to get across. Sometimes traffic isn't a problem to be solved. It's the universe telling you that there are already too many cars.

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knallfrosch 2y ago

This is Germany's biggest roundabout, "B17 Kreisverkehr" Features two lanes and five exits, as well as a pass-through bridge for a highway. When you drive on the highway, you don't even see it. https://i.prcdn.co/img?regionKey=W3NBJc2RmiFQ3sgVAHxBDg%3D%3D https://i.prcdn.co/img?regionKey=W3NBJc2RmiFQ3sgVAHxBDg%3D%3...

niffydroid 2y ago
I feel like this is something that's pretty normal in the uk
consp 2y ago
Plenty of those around here (not all 5 way but you get the jist): https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/50.841903/6.016892 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/50.841903/6.016... https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.404972/5.502611 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.404972/5.502... https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.982028/5.978778 https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?#map=17/51.982028/5.978... And I raise you the double highway fly over: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.056112/5.122311 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/52.056112/5.122311 My my local pet peeve of horrible roundabouts, you got cycling paths, a tram line, a bus line with different exit and cars. (the hexagonal cycling path with internal car circle causes the cars to not see a lot of the cycling paths making accidents frequent): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/51.996997/4.354979 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/51.996997/4.354979

tumidpandora 2y ago

Roundabouts are a nuisance, while they offer some merits, the sheer lack of education around how to navigate one makes for a very unpleasant experience in most cases.

closewith 2y ago
Roundabouts are incredible, offering throughput and safety benefits. > the sheer lack of education around how to navigate one makes for a very unpleasant experience in most cases. If we're talking about the United States, then the problem is the lack of driver education in general.
wholinator2 2y ago
That's how we felt too until a couple years passed and we no longer noticed it. Now that people have learned how it works its much faster than the old stoplight stopsign combo
_Microft 2y ago
How do they fail to use a roundabout properly? Any problem I can think of is not limited to roundabouts themselves.
floatrock 2y ago
"We don't have experience with a new better system so we must never adopt it." And so the lack of experience continues on forever. Come on, man, people will figure it out. There will always be the dashcam vid of the yokel who tries to make a left into one despite the obvious signage and directional nudges, but dashcam youtube has shown us there's always people out there who have no common sense and should not have a license. Just pop some popcorn and continue scrolling.
hotspot_one 2y ago
Wait, what is the nuisance-- the roundabout of the lack of education? What happens if we replace "roundabout" with "stop sign" in your statement and assume a population that was never trained on what "stop sign" means? Would that work better?

simonebrunozzi 2y ago

Just by looking at it, I immediately thought that it's a very poor design. Waiting a few months to see what happens with real traffic...

zamadatix 2y ago

Given the amount of space if I were driving through it I'd wish they had just made it a little larger so it could be a normal "full circle" roundabout. Sometimes the biggest problems with roundabouts is the number of variations. "You can use this lane to go that way here but a mile up if you want to go that way you want to make sure you're in the other lane". Not to mention it seems somewhat easy to speed through without even bothering to slow down for certain entrance/exit pairs.

mannykannot 2y ago
Yes, this leaves me with an uneasy feeling: "Drivers going northbound on SR 203 traffic may need to yield twice – once when entering the roundabout and again if traffic is passing between the two islands. If you think about it, that’s just following the same rules a second time." [my emphasis.] Firstly, of course, if you are new to it and have not heard about it in advance, you won't have much time to think about it. Secondly, if your mental model of a roundabout is "yield to enter, then you have right of way", this will seem counter-intuitive. I hope they put up a yield sign and corresponding road markings at that point, but the latter are not there in the accompanying aerial photo. I am also curious as to how navigation systems will tell drivers how to negotiate this roundabout. They have trouble with a somewhat similar roundabout in Kingston NY, at the intersection of Albany ave., Broadway and Colonel Chandler drive. Update: The accompanying video shows there will be yield lines at the point I am concerned about, but it is also ambiguous about how the rules of the road apply there: "The circulating roadway goes around and between both central islands... Those drivers already in the circulating roadway have the right-of-way." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_m7HHiZRw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07_m7HHiZRw
timdiggerm 2y ago
Did you read the blog post? >The new roundabout needed to be built in the same space as the old intersection. To the east is a steep hill. To the southwest there are protected wetlands. There wasn’t space or budget to mitigate the potential impact in either direction.
- zamadatix 2y ago

bkus 2y ago

Having driven this roundabout, it's a disaster. Way too cramped and narrow with sharp angles. The multitude of islands is confusing.

dathinab 2y ago
is it even a roundabout or just a strange 3 way intersection? like in a normal roundabout you always yield to the people in the roundabout basically assuring things won't get "stuck" if one road has much more traffic then another but on the picture it looks (through the lines) as if the people in roundabout have to yield in which case it wouldn't technically be a roundabout but just a 3 way intersection which separated and lanes to archive some traffic flow optimizations and calming as necessary (as such the sharp edges might angels might be very much intentional) and I agree it looks confusing but it also looks like it will slow down traffic in all but one of the directions EDIT: Photos on google maps have much more sane lane markings and it resolves the question if you have to yield when entering it (yes you have). It generally looks much less confusing there.

jlukic 2y ago

Roundabouts always make think about the two parts of problem optimization, determining your objective function then optimizing. Many classical failure states for real world problems seem to involve having an OF that is incorrect then prematurely optimizing. Think of the rich guy who wants “love at all costs” and then pursues women with expensive gifts and fancy restaurants. You may achieve your aim but perhaps you won’t get what you want. I think the same is true of roundabouts. One part of the experience that seems almost never to be mentioned is the experience for a passenger when encountering a series of roundabouts. Let’s say you had some bad oysters and are resting your head in the back of the car on a pillow and praying you can make it home before you upchuck your dinner. Perhaps some road engineer decided to put 5 or so roundabouts consecutively to “optimize traffic flow” then somewhere around spin number 3 you lose your stomach on the backseat. Perhaps the trip was not “optimal” for you.

n4r9 2y ago

> even our designers don’t know of any similar roundabouts this small Mini-roundabouts are commonplace in the UK, e.g.: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4072632,-0.2739497,3a,29.6y,6.58h,80.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv8Rmtw9PvH4MiUlajHVVyw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI0MTAwMi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4072632,-0.2739497,3a,29.6y,...

skeeter2020 2y ago

I really like roundabouts and they are starting to catch on in parts of NA; now we just need a generation of drivers who know how to navigate them.