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Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity (2018)

325 points by Tomte 2y ago

binkethy 2y ago
What a weird human mistake to create such a false dichotomy. Don't tell me longboard surfers aren't dancers. Lessons schmessons, move your body and learn how to control its movements to better express yourself and better manipulate it with respect to its context, whether in water, suspended from a giant sash, or rolling on a wooden floor.
omayomay 2y ago
This conclusion on "Dance" is to narrow i think. What about TaiChi/QiGong? Or martial arts? or yoga? Instead, maybe, the research might have focused for "exercises that requires high coordination and awareness of body is superior to weightlifting"
wvh 2y ago
I'm an avid trail runner, which requires a lot of (quoting another poster) balance, coordination and fluidity. How would dance differ from that? My mostly uneducated guess is that moving in lots of different ways, having lots of social contact and ensuring variety in what you eat just exercises the brain and body and challenges them to stay at peak performance, in balance and not atrophy. Being a modern human being is about learning to fight comfort and energy conservation.
game_the0ry 2y ago
Strange title -- isn't dance training a physical exercise?
neves 2y ago
I really like the studies that Dancing is better for depression than antidepressants: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dance-best-exercise-depression-b2501113.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dance-best-exercise...
mythrwy 2y ago
Not surprised in the least if this is the case. I have no experience with this app/company but I understand there is some evidence for timing based exercises helping cognition. https://www.interactivemetronome.com/ https://www.interactivemetronome.com/
vrighter 2y ago
And here I was just finishing reading an unrelated article about neurobollocks, which mentions, among other things, that anyone making a blanket statement about "neuroplasticity" is probably bullshitting. Because neuroplasticity isn't a well defined term. This is like someone claiming they cured cancer... (which one of the over 200 distinct, and mostly unrelated ones do you mean exactly?)
Slava_Propanei 2y ago
[dead]
riffic 2y ago
embodied cognition is definitely an interesting concept to explore. I know I get really interesting thoughts when I go for a walk. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/
cdiamand 2y ago
"Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged." So, the dance group showed increase volume of brain matter. Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it doesn't lead to improved cognition? Is it possible that increased volume just helped them become better dancers?
- aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
  Musical cognition is loosely connected to attention (maybe disconnected entirely by this metric, music seems special) and spatial memory is irrelevant. So "better dancers" seems a bit myopic, they might be improving their understanding of rhythm and melody in a more general sense. (IMO the headline-level conclusion of this study is unsurprising - dancing is far more cognitively demanding than gym exercise!)
- yapyap 2y ago
  > Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it doesn't lead to improved cognition? ever seen megamind?
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  Cognition and memory are easily measurable brain functions but are not the exclusive function of the brain. As a conserving machine a healthy brain building volume is indicative of improvement in some function otherwise it wouldn’t bother building the volume.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  I got into dance a few years ago, and N=1 sure, but the big changes I observed as a result were improvements in proprioception, balance, sense of tempo, and I also gained the ability to deconstruct music in my head, and listen to different parts of it (e.g. only pay attention to the guitar or the drums or the vocals). Like does this make me better at programming? Probably not. But the skills you gain do have other usages outside of dance, and honestly also kind of enrich life in general.
HPsquared 2y ago
Balance training (standing on a ball type thing) also is supposed to help ADHD.
- unshavedyak 2y ago
  Can you link anything on the subject? Sounds like a simple device you could own at home and spend 10m a day on balancing.
  - vitaflo 2y ago
    Really don't even need a device. I practice balancing on one leg with my eyes closed while brushing my teeth every morning (I've progressively made it harder over time). I mostly do this to keep up my balance skills for mountain biking and it's helped quite a bit, especially during winter when I ride less.
    - username44 2y ago
      You mentioned progressively making it harder, I’ve seen the following strategies to make balancing more difficult. Combining them all can be challenging: 1. Arms crossed on your chest 2. Eyes closed 3. Swinging your head left and right, like an exaggerated “no”
  - svilen_dobrev 2y ago
    on the opposite end of simple-or-cheap, e-foiling Does train your balance. esp. in windy "cabbage-salad" waves with medusas and rubbish floating around :/
- changing1999 2y ago
  This (intuitively) makes sense, since standing on a ball requires full focus, can't really get distracted.
  - marginalia_nu 2y ago
    Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done automatically.
idle_cycles 2y ago
"Fifty-two seniors (25 males; 27 females) aged 63–80 years were then randomly assigned to the experimental dance group (DG) and the control sport group (SG) controlling for age, MMSE status and physical fitness." I wonder if these findings remain true for young or middle aged adults.
- klyrs 2y ago
  > For the present exploratory study, we designed an especially challenging dance program in which our elderly participants constantly had to learn novel and increasingly difficult choreographies. This six-month-long program was compared to conventional fitness training matched for intensity. The result seems bloody obvious to me as a dancer. Dance is exercise. And this wasn't just dance, they were learning moves and choreography. Like, no duh, teaching people new and complicated things increases neuroplasticity! According to the quote there, the activities were matched in physical intensity and one treatment added a significant mental component versus the control. Compare dance to rowing, lifting, spinning etc. Those activities are regularly accomplished by a brainless motor. That such activities induce neuroplasticity is cool, but it's no shock that more enriching activities are better for the brain. I think it's obvious that a younger person's brain would be more improved by this class than your ordinary seniors athletics program. I'd be more inclined to compare with other low-impact competitive sport: badminton, table tennis, etc. Like dance, those require full-body coordination, planning, reflexes, etc.
  - hyperG 2y ago
    Seems obvious to me too as someone who sucks at dancing but loves fitness. Like saying the heart worked harder with people on a treadmill at 4 miles per hour than 3 miles per hour. I think there is also this bogus implication then that dancing would help you write a better novel or painting a picture than just walking on a treadmill.
slothtrop 2y ago
[flagged]
- Tomte 2y ago
  There is nothing to fix. HN doesn‘t allow such long titles.
  - slothtrop 2y ago
    It does not need to be long to be accurate. "Dance superior to repetitive exercise in inducing brain plasticity in elderly" - this fits.
JamesBarney 2y ago
> Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels. Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged casual.
noelwelsh 2y ago
I think the difference in outcomes is likely to be down to "continuous learning of new movement patterns and choreographies" vs "participants performed the same exercises repeatedly ... We avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep coordinative demands low". That said, I think dance is great.
- klyrs 2y ago
  That said, dance is a really fun way to package repetitive movements. And if younger people did more of it, the men on this site would spend less time bitching about how hard it is to meet women. *cough*
  - scotty79 2y ago
    That said, dancing is super hard. It just doesn't click with some brains. Like at all. With mine for example. I can't repeat full body movements. I can't remember sequences of those movements even as short as 3. Any diagrams that attmempt to teach dancing make no sense to me. Foot placement seems completely arbitrary. I always had a very hard time learning things I don't understand and I'm not sure if I ever actually learnt any. I see no connection between dancing and music. Regardless of the professional level of dancers when I look at them dancing I recognize no connection between what I hear and what they do. Like those two things are at completely separate layers without any meaningful sync between them. And that's all before even considering things like social anxiety or being a highly sensitive person which makes various stimuli including social ones so strong that they become unpleasant. The closest I ever was and probably I'll ever be to drawing any pleasure from dance like activity is Light Saber.
  - michaelteter 2y ago
    Yes, you will “meet” more women by dancing than by playing games on your computer. That doesn’t necessarily mean you will make any meaningful connections. Simply going places and interacting with people will also help you meet women. In fact, I think you’d sooner find a date by becoming a grocery store employee than a dancer, because you’re more likely to be having conversations with the people you meet. Dancing, especially where you are learning, is not really socializing. The structure of our modern society really does make it more difficult to meet new people. Women complain too, not just men.
kspacewalk2 2y ago
...in mice
- moi2388 2y ago
  That would be igNobel worthy
polishdude20 2y ago
Anecdotal bur my ex's grandmother would do swing dancing as a hobby with her husband and later when they retired at like 50, they would swing dance like 3-5 times a week at home. Her grandmother is now 102 years old and up until recently was the sharpest, and wittiest resident at her care home despite being the oldest. Her hearing is great, her eyesight is great. The only things going slowly are her short term memory and ability to walk but she still does with her walker.
- dunham 2y ago
  My grandmother kept a flower garden, it got smaller as she got older, but she made it to 113. Maybe the gardening helped keep her going. She was in a home for the last year (maybe two), lived on her own before that. She was sharp, but her hearing was poor.
anonzzzies 2y ago
Probably some styles of martial arts would (do imho) work well then. Disclaimer ; did not RTFA. Edit: +styles of
- klyrs 2y ago
  Depends on the martial art: head injuries would complicate that analysis; tai chi isn't terribly aerobic, etc.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    Yes, added styles there. Kata's can be quite dance-y depending on the style. Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be 'arts'. Martial, sure.
    - andoando 2y ago
      Boxing is more dance than katas
      - klyrs 2y ago
        Boxing is ballroom dance; katas are choreography.
    - fransje26 2y ago
      > Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be 'arts'. Which ones would you consider to be "arts", and worth getting into? I was recently thinking that I would like to get back into martial arts, but having done taekwondo in the past, I'm absolutely not interested in going back to any form of bashing impact..
      - nonrandomstring 2y ago
        Chen style tai-chi. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi
changing1999 2y ago
I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical exercise that contain an element of continuous learning. Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.
- PUSH_AX 2y ago
  That’s really interesting, bjj is essentially physical problem solving with dire consequences
- BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
  I think if your exercise involves you regularly getting choked out you probably shouldn’t be expecting neurological benefits
  - changing1999 2y ago
    No one is getting regularly choked out in BJJ. You always tap. The goal is not to injure your partner but to learn together. Source: 5 years of BJJ, I have never been choked out, I am not an idiot.
    - gregors 2y ago
      The only reason you'd ever get choked out in BJJ is because you lost the fight with your own ego.
      - changing1999 2y ago
        That's a good way to put it. I trained in many gyms across two continents and never saw anyone getting chocked out in class.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".
gcanyon 2y ago
Obligatory mention of the fact that the best exercise is the one you’ll do, regardless of what it is. Dance might be better for your brain than cycling, but neither helps anything if you give up on them after a few months. So find the (best) exercise you’ll actually keep up with, and keep up with that. Even if it’s only walking a few blocks a day, that’s better than nothing.
bogtog 2y ago
I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. This means that the study is overall off to a pretty bad start if their goal is to study dance vs. exercise differences... The brain data claims to show that the dance vs. exercise groups showed different levels of improvement in various regions. However, the brain effects are tiny and are probably just random noise (I'm referring to those red spots, which are very small and almost certainly don't reflect proper correction for multiple hypotheses given that the authors effectively tested 1000s or 10000s of different areas). The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish. In general, my priors on "we can detect subtle changes in brain matter over a 6-week period" are also very low. Perhaps, a study with this sample size could show that activity of some kind influences the brain over such a short length, but I am extremely skeptical that this type of study could detect differences between dance vs. exercise effects.
- aswegs8 2y ago
  I lack the in-depth knowledge but correcting p-value thresholds for multiple hypotheses is very basic science. I doubt your criticism is valid given that some basic error like this would never pass peer review.
  - bogtog 2y ago
    Correcting for p-values in brain imaging research is kinda elaborate, since you are essentially performing a t-test separately for each brain voxel. A brain image like the authors' will have about a million voxels (0.7 x 0.7 x 0.7 mm voxels). For multiple hypothesis correction, correcting for 1 million tests would be overly strict because neighboring voxels are highly correlated with one another, and it's unlikely for brain effects to really be confined to such a small area. Hence, researchers usually define a primary threshold for voxels (here p < .001 uncorrected), and then look for patches of many p < .001 voxels together. Here, the authors stated that they looked for patches of at least 50 contiguous voxels. The authors are just using some loose old-timey heuristic without justification or citation. These have been getting phased out mostly in the past decade. These types of heuristics don't actually test to establish that these thresholds won't yield tons of false positives (one of the best ways to do this is to basically randomly shuffle your data and see what are the actual cluster sizes generated by chance). > some basic error like this would never pass peer review It indeed shouldn't pass peer review! Yet, here we are. I think standards have gotten better since the paper's publication (2018), but there are no doubt there are still many reviewers who don't have a good intuition about what a significant cluster size should be. Off the top of my head, I can't give an exact number on the cluster size needed, but I'd be willing to bet a ton that what the authors used is not enough.
maxwell 2y ago
https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz
rqtwteye 2y ago
I think that’s why I prefer exercise with some level of freedom. Free weights feel more engaging than machines. A fast hike up a mountain feels better than running on a treadmill indoors.
djmips 2y ago
My hope is that DDR is a form of dance training.
chaostheory 2y ago
I found the Les Mill’s XR Dance to be a great workout app in VR. https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478 https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478 The research results aren’t surprising since dance is more complicated than something like HIIT. Martial arts training would likely have a similar effect unless sparring involved lots of hits to the head.
svilen_dobrev 2y ago
One dancer-and-programmer friend of mine invented the below thinking, after i introduced him into the "relation is an object" paradigm in software..: When movement becomes dance? Dance is the "relation" between movement and meaning. The key is whether someone can put it / sense it . someone = a dancer or the-other-kind-of-dancer-called-spectator meaning = very-very abstract. Like, even concentration can be meaning
ericmcer 2y ago
I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.
- macintux 2y ago
  Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no way I could reproduce it.
  - eep_social 2y ago
    I think gp’s point was that “exercise” encompasses a range from stationary bike to olympic lifts. Dancing is on the same end of that range as olympic lifting or a sport like basketball insofar as they all require intentional practice.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    What works is to go through the steps very slowly. As it moves into muscle memory, you can speed it up. Dance training is a whole body thing. There's steps, ankle position, foot turnout, posture, what to do with your arms, what to do with your fingers, where your eyes are looking, and on and on. The very first thing, though, is getting the steps into your muscle memory. Then one by one, you start layering on the rest.
  - alaithea 2y ago
    I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain science about chunking objects in memory for better recall. But tap has few of those chunked sequences, other than the "time step," so you're left trying to parse long strings of very finite instructions. "Left ball right heel left flap ball change..." Personally I found it overwhelming and didn't pursue tap into the most advanced levels for that reason. Aside: it seemed like neurotypical folks struggled less with tap than I did as an AuDHD person, so tap may land differently with different neurotypes.
blueyes 2y ago
Dance requires balance and often involves social interaction, while lots of physical exercise does not. Balance and more precisely imbalance is a good way to stimulate adrenaline in the brain, which can accelerate learning. Claude Shannon, fwiw, loved unicycles.
ziofill 2y ago
I don't find this hard to believe. I'm no brain scientist, but dance puts together several senses and proprioception: music, rhythm, one's position in 3D space, balance, and physical exercise...
pandemic_region 2y ago
.... in the elderly.
alunchbox 2y ago
A book I read 'spark' by John J Ratey, discussed this in a few chapters. Cardio/Running at 70% maximum heart rate lead to brain plasticity and even allowing new synapses to make connections and grow. However, he did argue an exercise that also required concentration e.g dancing, basketball, skateboarding would have better results. It's absolutely crazy, that we misunderstand how our brains are intended to work in the old world. Our brains are for movement, the ability to think, plan and utilize tools appears to have been a happy accident that allowed our ancestor an advantage in survival. brains be braining.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  sophisticated coordination and balance are the most effectful brain stimulation i know, it also makes you develop a different understanding of space and time which makes you calmer (larger planning abilities maybe ?)
- __turbobrew__ 2y ago
  I like trail running. It combines cardio with balance and problem solving (where do you place your feet, dodging obstacles, recovering from stumbles, very dynamic compared to running on a road or treadmill). I strongly believe that trail running is much less prone to cause repetitive stress injuries, I see so many people pound thousands of kilometres on pavement and then wonder why their knees give out at 45. On the other side I know people getting injured when trail running, but it always seems to be acute (like scraping a knee or spraining an ankle) and they are back at it within a week or two. Finally, at a pseudoscience level I believe that we as humans evolved to run over uneven semi-soft ground and therefore trail running is one of the most natural movements.
tgv 2y ago
One should really not draw conclusions based on this. * It's a (small) group of 63-80 year olds. * There's no evidence for increased neuro-plasticity. How could there be? There's only an dubious effect on BDNF plasma and "BDNF may be a possible mediating factor of adult neuroplasticity". * The groups start out with a difference, but by misapplying statistics, they conclude there's no difference.
laristine 2y ago
For a research article, modifiers may be more important in imposing constraints and necessary insights in cause and effect. The full title of this article is "Dance training is superior to repetitive physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity in the elderly". While the current title on HN is "Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity".
- lukas099 2y ago
  Yes, came here to say that the HN title is misleading.
polishdude20 2y ago
On the same note, has anyone joined any dance classes alone? What did you join? How was it going alone? Did you make friends? Do you still do it?
- momojo 2y ago
  Can I ask how old you are? How many of your friends are interested in dance? Are you interested because others are going or does it stem from an intrinsic desire? Many of my friends (late 20's, early 30s) wouldn't dream of being the first on a dance floor, or trying a class. I think most would rather shoot hoops or go hiking. Dance doesn't even occur to them as an option. My personal theory is that there's a stigma. Social dancing is what old people do. (Although I don't want to discount the k-pop dance scene I witnessed in college. That had a more performative aspect to it though, like marching band).
  - polishdude20 2y ago
    I'm 31. None of my friends are interested. I mainly wanna try swing dancing because I saw a video of a competition and it looked like so much fun. It's really cool seeing people be able to command their body confidently and I see that and think "I wanna do that".
    - potatochup 2y ago
      Just do it! Most venues have a beginner class that is specifically designed for people who have never danced (there will likely be others in the same boat as you). I started a few years ago, now I teach it and it's all I do in my spare time. It's also a great hobby because you can either go all in like me, or show up once a week for 1h and still have good time, meet people etc (based on your username), Poland has a great scene by the way.
      - polishdude20 2y ago
        I will see if there's places near me! And I'm actually in Vancouver hehe.
3523582908 2y ago
My own personal experience, but my 80 year old FIL changed a lot after he started going to dance classes. He was always in decent physical health, but prior to the classes he was a very stressed, unhappy, solitary type of person. Since then he's become much more extroverted, social, and generally happier. Obviously I think the benefits are more than just the dancing itself, such as the community, but even when you ask him directly about what he thinks caused the change he points to dance classes.
veidelis 2y ago
I've heard that learning new types of motions helps to increase brain plasticity. I would assume it works best with some amount of cardio exercises.
not5150 2y ago
It would be interesting to see the results compared to martial arts, specifically martial arts which require you to perform kata/forms or a set of prearranged moves/strike. So it's basically like a dance, but something like block, punch, turn, kick low, kick high, spinning back kick, etc for 1-3 minutes. American Kenpo brown belt kata I'm looking at you!
riedel 2y ago
I remember that going through a lot of media (actually back in 2015 already) in Germany. My parents in law (in their 80s) dance a lot and can assure it actually keeps them really fit. However, I never learned to dance and I wonder really if I can really learn it when I go to pension age.. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732
mikhmha 2y ago
A bit unrelated to the main topic but whenever I exceed a certain threshold of smoking cannabis (>0.3g) it seems to induce some automatic rhythmic movement in me. If there's music playing I can tune into the rhythm of the music. If there's no music, I will move around a lot while twisting my limbs, stretching my arms, holding positions and breathing, in various rhythmic and also strange ways. Some people have described it resembling a form of yoga or tai-chi. Whatever it is, it feels like a benefit? I've noticed my posture has improved and in the gym my numbers have also gone up despite 0 diet changes. Its like a full body stretch that activates all these minor muscles in my body. I don't know - whenever I think about quitting this "bad" habit, I remember that it would just be replaced by sitting around looking at my phone. Being put into this physical trance by a drug has to be infinitely more healthy than that right? I trade one addiction for another.
- dsclough 2y ago
  THCs effects on proprioception are interesting enough to be worth pursuing if you have any interests in the physical realm. Dancing, climbing, lifting weights, running. Clearly one should be careful and I wish weed was still good for me but it’s just anxiety city so I’ll leave it to the folks who haven’t ruined their brains to enjoy.
pgt 2y ago
Dance is more social than solo physical exercise. Would make sense that it triggers more brain activity in different areas.
tech_ken 2y ago
To anyone who knows: have their been similar comparison studies between non-exercise movement and exercise movement? Like cycling vs. learning the piano?
yowayb 2y ago
Anecdotally, I've found that dancing feels good physically, but also connects you psychologically and culturally with others. More intense activity like CrossFit for example also builds connection, but I don't think you need to go that hard to reap physical benefits, especially as we age.
ropable 2y ago
My personal assumption (unsupported by evidence) is that the social aspect of dance training might be as big of a factor in any supposed difference here. Dance classes are inherently more social group activities than many type of structured "physical exercise" (e.g. strength training in the gym, running, etc.)
lamnguyenx 2y ago
I have the same question to playing the piano. By every piano playing (30-60 mins per day), can we enhance our brain capacity and delay the age of dementia?
Nevermark 2y ago
For me, exercise with physical-mental integration, it’s Beat Saber. But played with strict adherence to edged weapon form. I must only cut with the “sharp side” of my light saber, and cutting must take the form of contact then pulling back hard to slice (you don’t push a blade through meat). Also, you can’t stand there. The enemy is going to slice you, and avoid your attacks much more easily if you just stand in one place. So never stop moving, high, low, side to side, back & forth. Attack and cut from every angle. From over, from under, from every possible stance. Dance, motherflamingo, dance! All this with maximum speed & force. And no blade crossing. Duh! Now work your way up in difficulty. You learn to move like a samurai. You don’t have a choice! I wish the game had settings that enforced these constraints, along with more complex target motion & rotation. And moving/rotating shielded target sides that reduced your attack options. But just imagining the constraints, just as it is, works fine. It also helps to have a large enough area where your VR boundaries are all but irrelevant. And no pauses between songs - one album at a time, straight out. You don’t get a break in battle! One thing I have learned. If I ever had to fight in a real epic 合戦 (gah-sen), I would want my AirPods and tunes!
- snapcaster 2y ago
  This sounds so awesome. Beat saber but actually sword fighting seems fun as hell. Surprised now this doesn't already exist

325 points by Tomte 2y ago

What a weird human mistake to create such a false dichotomy. Don't tell me longboard surfers aren't dancers. Lessons schmessons, move your body and learn how to control its movements to better express yourself and better manipulate it with respect to its context, whether in water, suspended from a giant sash, or rolling on a wooden floor.

omayomay 2y ago

This conclusion on "Dance" is to narrow i think. What about TaiChi/QiGong? Or martial arts? or yoga? Instead, maybe, the research might have focused for "exercises that requires high coordination and awareness of body is superior to weightlifting"

wvh 2y ago

I'm an avid trail runner, which requires a lot of (quoting another poster) balance, coordination and fluidity. How would dance differ from that? My mostly uneducated guess is that moving in lots of different ways, having lots of social contact and ensuring variety in what you eat just exercises the brain and body and challenges them to stay at peak performance, in balance and not atrophy. Being a modern human being is about learning to fight comfort and energy conservation.

game_the0ry 2y ago

Strange title -- isn't dance training a physical exercise?

neves 2y ago

I really like the studies that Dancing is better for depression than antidepressants: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dance-best-exercise-depression-b2501113.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/dance-best-exercise...

mythrwy 2y ago

Not surprised in the least if this is the case. I have no experience with this app/company but I understand there is some evidence for timing based exercises helping cognition. https://www.interactivemetronome.com/ https://www.interactivemetronome.com/

vrighter 2y ago

And here I was just finishing reading an unrelated article about neurobollocks, which mentions, among other things, that anyone making a blanket statement about "neuroplasticity" is probably bullshitting. Because neuroplasticity isn't a well defined term. This is like someone claiming they cured cancer... (which one of the over 200 distinct, and mostly unrelated ones do you mean exactly?)

Slava_Propanei 2y ago

[dead]

riffic 2y ago

embodied cognition is definitely an interesting concept to explore. I know I get really interesting thoughts when I go for a walk. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/embodied-cognition/

cdiamand 2y ago

"Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged." So, the dance group showed increase volume of brain matter. Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it doesn't lead to improved cognition? Is it possible that increased volume just helped them become better dancers?

aithrowawaycomm 2y ago
Musical cognition is loosely connected to attention (maybe disconnected entirely by this metric, music seems special) and spatial memory is irrelevant. So "better dancers" seems a bit myopic, they might be improving their understanding of rhythm and melody in a more general sense. (IMO the headline-level conclusion of this study is unsurprising - dancing is far more cognitively demanding than gym exercise!)
yapyap 2y ago
> Is there a benefit to having the extra brain volume, even if it doesn't lead to improved cognition? ever seen megamind?
fnordpiglet 2y ago
Cognition and memory are easily measurable brain functions but are not the exclusive function of the brain. As a conserving machine a healthy brain building volume is indicative of improvement in some function otherwise it wouldn’t bother building the volume.
marginalia_nu 2y ago
I got into dance a few years ago, and N=1 sure, but the big changes I observed as a result were improvements in proprioception, balance, sense of tempo, and I also gained the ability to deconstruct music in my head, and listen to different parts of it (e.g. only pay attention to the guitar or the drums or the vocals). Like does this make me better at programming? Probably not. But the skills you gain do have other usages outside of dance, and honestly also kind of enrich life in general.

HPsquared 2y ago

Balance training (standing on a ball type thing) also is supposed to help ADHD.

unshavedyak 2y ago
Can you link anything on the subject? Sounds like a simple device you could own at home and spend 10m a day on balancing.
- vitaflo 2y ago
  Really don't even need a device. I practice balancing on one leg with my eyes closed while brushing my teeth every morning (I've progressively made it harder over time). I mostly do this to keep up my balance skills for mountain biking and it's helped quite a bit, especially during winter when I ride less.
  - username44 2y ago
    You mentioned progressively making it harder, I’ve seen the following strategies to make balancing more difficult. Combining them all can be challenging: 1. Arms crossed on your chest 2. Eyes closed 3. Swinging your head left and right, like an exaggerated “no”
- svilen_dobrev 2y ago
  on the opposite end of simple-or-cheap, e-foiling Does train your balance. esp. in windy "cabbage-salad" waves with medusas and rubbish floating around :/
changing1999 2y ago
This (intuitively) makes sense, since standing on a ball requires full focus, can't really get distracted.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  Does it though? Balancing doesn't seem like an active cognitive process, like I don't have to think about not falling over to stay upright on a bicycle. All the little shifts of body weight needed to not tip over seem to be done automatically.

idle_cycles 2y ago

"Fifty-two seniors (25 males; 27 females) aged 63–80 years were then randomly assigned to the experimental dance group (DG) and the control sport group (SG) controlling for age, MMSE status and physical fitness." I wonder if these findings remain true for young or middle aged adults.

klyrs 2y ago
> For the present exploratory study, we designed an especially challenging dance program in which our elderly participants constantly had to learn novel and increasingly difficult choreographies. This six-month-long program was compared to conventional fitness training matched for intensity. The result seems bloody obvious to me as a dancer. Dance is exercise. And this wasn't just dance, they were learning moves and choreography. Like, no duh, teaching people new and complicated things increases neuroplasticity! According to the quote there, the activities were matched in physical intensity and one treatment added a significant mental component versus the control. Compare dance to rowing, lifting, spinning etc. Those activities are regularly accomplished by a brainless motor. That such activities induce neuroplasticity is cool, but it's no shock that more enriching activities are better for the brain. I think it's obvious that a younger person's brain would be more improved by this class than your ordinary seniors athletics program. I'd be more inclined to compare with other low-impact competitive sport: badminton, table tennis, etc. Like dance, those require full-body coordination, planning, reflexes, etc.
- hyperG 2y ago
  Seems obvious to me too as someone who sucks at dancing but loves fitness. Like saying the heart worked harder with people on a treadmill at 4 miles per hour than 3 miles per hour. I think there is also this bogus implication then that dancing would help you write a better novel or painting a picture than just walking on a treadmill.

slothtrop 2y ago

[flagged]

Tomte 2y ago
There is nothing to fix. HN doesn‘t allow such long titles.
- slothtrop 2y ago
  It does not need to be long to be accurate. "Dance superior to repetitive exercise in inducing brain plasticity in elderly" - this fits.

JamesBarney 2y ago

> Dancing compared to conventional fitness activity led to larger volume increases in more brain areas, including the cingulate cortex, insula, corpus callosum and sensorimotor cortex. Only dancing was associated with an increase in plasma BDNF levels. Regarding cognition, both groups improved in attention and spatial memory, but no significant group differences emerged casual.

noelwelsh 2y ago

I think the difference in outcomes is likely to be down to "continuous learning of new movement patterns and choreographies" vs "participants performed the same exercises repeatedly ... We avoided combined arm and leg movements in order to keep coordinative demands low". That said, I think dance is great.

klyrs 2y ago
That said, dance is a really fun way to package repetitive movements. And if younger people did more of it, the men on this site would spend less time bitching about how hard it is to meet women. *cough*
- scotty79 2y ago
  That said, dancing is super hard. It just doesn't click with some brains. Like at all. With mine for example. I can't repeat full body movements. I can't remember sequences of those movements even as short as 3. Any diagrams that attmempt to teach dancing make no sense to me. Foot placement seems completely arbitrary. I always had a very hard time learning things I don't understand and I'm not sure if I ever actually learnt any. I see no connection between dancing and music. Regardless of the professional level of dancers when I look at them dancing I recognize no connection between what I hear and what they do. Like those two things are at completely separate layers without any meaningful sync between them. And that's all before even considering things like social anxiety or being a highly sensitive person which makes various stimuli including social ones so strong that they become unpleasant. The closest I ever was and probably I'll ever be to drawing any pleasure from dance like activity is Light Saber.
- michaelteter 2y ago
  Yes, you will “meet” more women by dancing than by playing games on your computer. That doesn’t necessarily mean you will make any meaningful connections. Simply going places and interacting with people will also help you meet women. In fact, I think you’d sooner find a date by becoming a grocery store employee than a dancer, because you’re more likely to be having conversations with the people you meet. Dancing, especially where you are learning, is not really socializing. The structure of our modern society really does make it more difficult to meet new people. Women complain too, not just men.

kspacewalk2 2y ago

...in mice

moi2388 2y ago
That would be igNobel worthy

polishdude20 2y ago

Anecdotal bur my ex's grandmother would do swing dancing as a hobby with her husband and later when they retired at like 50, they would swing dance like 3-5 times a week at home. Her grandmother is now 102 years old and up until recently was the sharpest, and wittiest resident at her care home despite being the oldest. Her hearing is great, her eyesight is great. The only things going slowly are her short term memory and ability to walk but she still does with her walker.

dunham 2y ago
My grandmother kept a flower garden, it got smaller as she got older, but she made it to 113. Maybe the gardening helped keep her going. She was in a home for the last year (maybe two), lived on her own before that. She was sharp, but her hearing was poor.

anonzzzies 2y ago

Probably some styles of martial arts would (do imho) work well then. Disclaimer ; did not RTFA. Edit: +styles of

klyrs 2y ago
Depends on the martial art: head injuries would complicate that analysis; tai chi isn't terribly aerobic, etc.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  Yes, added styles there. Kata's can be quite dance-y depending on the style. Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be 'arts'. Martial, sure.
  - andoando 2y ago
    Boxing is more dance than katas
    - klyrs 2y ago
      Boxing is ballroom dance; katas are choreography.
  - fransje26 2y ago
    > Also, to be contrary old dude into martial arts all his life, I don't really consider many head bashing 'styles' now to be 'arts'. Which ones would you consider to be "arts", and worth getting into? I was recently thinking that I would like to get back into martial arts, but having done taekwondo in the past, I'm absolutely not interested in going back to any form of bashing impact..
    - nonrandomstring 2y ago
      Chen style tai-chi. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen-style_tai_chi

changing1999 2y ago

I would like to see a comparison with other types of physical exercise that contain an element of continuous learning. Wrestling, BJJ, even boxercise, crossfit and such. Since the argument seems to be specifically about learning new routines and how that impacts neuroplasticity, dance vs other more cognitively challenging workouts would be an interesting comparison.

PUSH_AX 2y ago
That’s really interesting, bjj is essentially physical problem solving with dire consequences
BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
I think if your exercise involves you regularly getting choked out you probably shouldn’t be expecting neurological benefits
- changing1999 2y ago
  No one is getting regularly choked out in BJJ. You always tap. The goal is not to injure your partner but to learn together. Source: 5 years of BJJ, I have never been choked out, I am not an idiot.
  - gregors 2y ago
    The only reason you'd ever get choked out in BJJ is because you lost the fight with your own ego.
    - changing1999 2y ago
      That's a good way to put it. I trained in many gyms across two continents and never saw anyone getting chocked out in class.
WalterBright 2y ago
With dance you are constantly learning new material. Much less so with an exercise routine, even if you "mix it up".

gcanyon 2y ago

Obligatory mention of the fact that the best exercise is the one you’ll do, regardless of what it is. Dance might be better for your brain than cycling, but neither helps anything if you give up on them after a few months. So find the (best) exercise you’ll actually keep up with, and keep up with that. Even if it’s only walking a few blocks a day, that’s better than nothing.

bogtog 2y ago

I do MRI work, and my gut is that none of the claims about dance vs. exercise would replicate. The behavioral data suggests that activity of some type will improve cognitive function (main effects of time). Such beneficial effects of activity on the brain have been shown before, and this is generally accepted. However, the authors' behavioral data doesn't show any difference between the dance vs. exercise groups. This means that the study is overall off to a pretty bad start if their goal is to study dance vs. exercise differences... The brain data claims to show that the dance vs. exercise groups showed different levels of improvement in various regions. However, the brain effects are tiny and are probably just random noise (I'm referring to those red spots, which are very small and almost certainly don't reflect proper correction for multiple hypotheses given that the authors effectively tested 1000s or 10000s of different areas). The authors' claims about BDNF are supported by a p-value of p = .046, and having main conclusions hinge on p-values of p > .01 usually means the conclusions are rubbish. In general, my priors on "we can detect subtle changes in brain matter over a 6-week period" are also very low. Perhaps, a study with this sample size could show that activity of some kind influences the brain over such a short length, but I am extremely skeptical that this type of study could detect differences between dance vs. exercise effects.

aswegs8 2y ago
I lack the in-depth knowledge but correcting p-value thresholds for multiple hypotheses is very basic science. I doubt your criticism is valid given that some basic error like this would never pass peer review.
- bogtog 2y ago
  Correcting for p-values in brain imaging research is kinda elaborate, since you are essentially performing a t-test separately for each brain voxel. A brain image like the authors' will have about a million voxels (0.7 x 0.7 x 0.7 mm voxels). For multiple hypothesis correction, correcting for 1 million tests would be overly strict because neighboring voxels are highly correlated with one another, and it's unlikely for brain effects to really be confined to such a small area. Hence, researchers usually define a primary threshold for voxels (here p < .001 uncorrected), and then look for patches of many p < .001 voxels together. Here, the authors stated that they looked for patches of at least 50 contiguous voxels. The authors are just using some loose old-timey heuristic without justification or citation. These have been getting phased out mostly in the past decade. These types of heuristics don't actually test to establish that these thresholds won't yield tons of false positives (one of the best ways to do this is to basically randomly shuffle your data and see what are the actual cluster sizes generated by chance). > some basic error like this would never pass peer review It indeed shouldn't pass peer review! Yet, here we are. I think standards have gotten better since the paper's publication (2018), but there are no doubt there are still many reviewers who don't have a good intuition about what a significant cluster size should be. Off the top of my head, I can't give an exact number on the cluster size needed, but I'd be willing to bet a ton that what the authors used is not enough.

maxwell 2y ago

https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz https://youtu.be/BD-z8ZqVpP8?si=yBdJmDrDWXrJMpvz

rqtwteye 2y ago

I think that’s why I prefer exercise with some level of freedom. Free weights feel more engaging than machines. A fast hike up a mountain feels better than running on a treadmill indoors.

djmips 2y ago

My hope is that DDR is a form of dance training.

chaostheory 2y ago

I found the Les Mill’s XR Dance to be a great workout app in VR. https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478 https://www.meta.com/experiences/app/6212696172191478 The research results aren’t surprising since dance is more complicated than something like HIIT. Martial arts training would likely have a similar effect unless sparring involved lots of hits to the head.

svilen_dobrev 2y ago

One dancer-and-programmer friend of mine invented the below thinking, after i introduced him into the "relation is an object" paradigm in software..: When movement becomes dance? Dance is the "relation" between movement and meaning. The key is whether someone can put it / sense it . someone = a dancer or the-other-kind-of-dancer-called-spectator meaning = very-very abstract. Like, even concentration can be meaning

ericmcer 2y ago

I don't have any science behind this, but it makes sense that training more complex motions would trigger greater brain improvements. Dance vs basketball or some other high coordination/skill activity might have less disparity than say dance vs. exercise bike.

macintux 2y ago
Speaking as someone who tried to take a tap class as an adult, only to discover it was for people who were already experienced dancers: yes, dance training is vastly more complex than exercise. Update: what absolutely killed me is that we would run through a complex step two or three times, and we were expected to be able to practice at home. I didn't understand what we were doing while we were doing it, there was no way I could reproduce it.
- eep_social 2y ago
  I think gp’s point was that “exercise” encompasses a range from stationary bike to olympic lifts. Dancing is on the same end of that range as olympic lifting or a sport like basketball insofar as they all require intentional practice.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  What works is to go through the steps very slowly. As it moves into muscle memory, you can speed it up. Dance training is a whole body thing. There's steps, ankle position, foot turnout, posture, what to do with your arms, what to do with your fingers, where your eyes are looking, and on and on. The very first thing, though, is getting the steps into your muscle memory. Then one by one, you start layering on the rest.
- alaithea 2y ago
  I've danced extensively, and tap can be brutal for the sheer number of steps you need to remember. Other dance disciplines, like ballet, tend to chunk sets of smaller movements into a larger, named one, so once you learn those sequences, it's easy to learn and recall longer routines. The way ballet is put together aligns with advice from brain science about chunking objects in memory for better recall. But tap has few of those chunked sequences, other than the "time step," so you're left trying to parse long strings of very finite instructions. "Left ball right heel left flap ball change..." Personally I found it overwhelming and didn't pursue tap into the most advanced levels for that reason. Aside: it seemed like neurotypical folks struggled less with tap than I did as an AuDHD person, so tap may land differently with different neurotypes.

blueyes 2y ago

Dance requires balance and often involves social interaction, while lots of physical exercise does not. Balance and more precisely imbalance is a good way to stimulate adrenaline in the brain, which can accelerate learning. Claude Shannon, fwiw, loved unicycles.

ziofill 2y ago

I don't find this hard to believe. I'm no brain scientist, but dance puts together several senses and proprioception: music, rhythm, one's position in 3D space, balance, and physical exercise...

pandemic_region 2y ago

.... in the elderly.

alunchbox 2y ago

A book I read 'spark' by John J Ratey, discussed this in a few chapters. Cardio/Running at 70% maximum heart rate lead to brain plasticity and even allowing new synapses to make connections and grow. However, he did argue an exercise that also required concentration e.g dancing, basketball, skateboarding would have better results. It's absolutely crazy, that we misunderstand how our brains are intended to work in the old world. Our brains are for movement, the ability to think, plan and utilize tools appears to have been a happy accident that allowed our ancestor an advantage in survival. brains be braining.

agumonkey 2y ago
sophisticated coordination and balance are the most effectful brain stimulation i know, it also makes you develop a different understanding of space and time which makes you calmer (larger planning abilities maybe ?)
__turbobrew__ 2y ago
I like trail running. It combines cardio with balance and problem solving (where do you place your feet, dodging obstacles, recovering from stumbles, very dynamic compared to running on a road or treadmill). I strongly believe that trail running is much less prone to cause repetitive stress injuries, I see so many people pound thousands of kilometres on pavement and then wonder why their knees give out at 45. On the other side I know people getting injured when trail running, but it always seems to be acute (like scraping a knee or spraining an ankle) and they are back at it within a week or two. Finally, at a pseudoscience level I believe that we as humans evolved to run over uneven semi-soft ground and therefore trail running is one of the most natural movements.

tgv 2y ago

One should really not draw conclusions based on this. * It's a (small) group of 63-80 year olds. * There's no evidence for increased neuro-plasticity. How could there be? There's only an dubious effect on BDNF plasma and "BDNF may be a possible mediating factor of adult neuroplasticity". * The groups start out with a difference, but by misapplying statistics, they conclude there's no difference.

laristine 2y ago

For a research article, modifiers may be more important in imposing constraints and necessary insights in cause and effect. The full title of this article is "Dance training is superior to repetitive physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity in the elderly". While the current title on HN is "Dance training superior to physical exercise in inducing brain plasticity".

lukas099 2y ago
Yes, came here to say that the HN title is misleading.

polishdude20 2y ago

On the same note, has anyone joined any dance classes alone? What did you join? How was it going alone? Did you make friends? Do you still do it?

momojo 2y ago
Can I ask how old you are? How many of your friends are interested in dance? Are you interested because others are going or does it stem from an intrinsic desire? Many of my friends (late 20's, early 30s) wouldn't dream of being the first on a dance floor, or trying a class. I think most would rather shoot hoops or go hiking. Dance doesn't even occur to them as an option. My personal theory is that there's a stigma. Social dancing is what old people do. (Although I don't want to discount the k-pop dance scene I witnessed in college. That had a more performative aspect to it though, like marching band).
- polishdude20 2y ago
  I'm 31. None of my friends are interested. I mainly wanna try swing dancing because I saw a video of a competition and it looked like so much fun. It's really cool seeing people be able to command their body confidently and I see that and think "I wanna do that".
  - potatochup 2y ago
    Just do it! Most venues have a beginner class that is specifically designed for people who have never danced (there will likely be others in the same boat as you). I started a few years ago, now I teach it and it's all I do in my spare time. It's also a great hobby because you can either go all in like me, or show up once a week for 1h and still have good time, meet people etc (based on your username), Poland has a great scene by the way.
    - polishdude20 2y ago
      I will see if there's places near me! And I'm actually in Vancouver hehe.

3523582908 2y ago

My own personal experience, but my 80 year old FIL changed a lot after he started going to dance classes. He was always in decent physical health, but prior to the classes he was a very stressed, unhappy, solitary type of person. Since then he's become much more extroverted, social, and generally happier. Obviously I think the benefits are more than just the dancing itself, such as the community, but even when you ask him directly about what he thinks caused the change he points to dance classes.

veidelis 2y ago

I've heard that learning new types of motions helps to increase brain plasticity. I would assume it works best with some amount of cardio exercises.

not5150 2y ago

It would be interesting to see the results compared to martial arts, specifically martial arts which require you to perform kata/forms or a set of prearranged moves/strike. So it's basically like a dance, but something like block, punch, turn, kick low, kick high, spinning back kick, etc for 1-3 minutes. American Kenpo brown belt kata I'm looking at you!

riedel 2y ago

I remember that going through a lot of media (actually back in 2015 already) in Germany. My parents in law (in their 80s) dance a lot and can assure it actually keeps them really fit. However, I never learned to dance and I wonder really if I can really learn it when I go to pension age.. Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732

mikhmha 2y ago

A bit unrelated to the main topic but whenever I exceed a certain threshold of smoking cannabis (>0.3g) it seems to induce some automatic rhythmic movement in me. If there's music playing I can tune into the rhythm of the music. If there's no music, I will move around a lot while twisting my limbs, stretching my arms, holding positions and breathing, in various rhythmic and also strange ways. Some people have described it resembling a form of yoga or tai-chi. Whatever it is, it feels like a benefit? I've noticed my posture has improved and in the gym my numbers have also gone up despite 0 diet changes. Its like a full body stretch that activates all these minor muscles in my body. I don't know - whenever I think about quitting this "bad" habit, I remember that it would just be replaced by sitting around looking at my phone. Being put into this physical trance by a drug has to be infinitely more healthy than that right? I trade one addiction for another.

dsclough 2y ago
THCs effects on proprioception are interesting enough to be worth pursuing if you have any interests in the physical realm. Dancing, climbing, lifting weights, running. Clearly one should be careful and I wish weed was still good for me but it’s just anxiety city so I’ll leave it to the folks who haven’t ruined their brains to enjoy.

pgt 2y ago

Dance is more social than solo physical exercise. Would make sense that it triggers more brain activity in different areas.

tech_ken 2y ago

To anyone who knows: have their been similar comparison studies between non-exercise movement and exercise movement? Like cycling vs. learning the piano?

yowayb 2y ago

Anecdotally, I've found that dancing feels good physically, but also connects you psychologically and culturally with others. More intense activity like CrossFit for example also builds connection, but I don't think you need to go that hard to reap physical benefits, especially as we age.

ropable 2y ago

My personal assumption (unsupported by evidence) is that the social aspect of dance training might be as big of a factor in any supposed difference here. Dance classes are inherently more social group activities than many type of structured "physical exercise" (e.g. strength training in the gym, running, etc.)

lamnguyenx 2y ago

I have the same question to playing the piano. By every piano playing (30-60 mins per day), can we enhance our brain capacity and delay the age of dementia?

Nevermark 2y ago

For me, exercise with physical-mental integration, it’s Beat Saber. But played with strict adherence to edged weapon form. I must only cut with the “sharp side” of my light saber, and cutting must take the form of contact then pulling back hard to slice (you don’t push a blade through meat). Also, you can’t stand there. The enemy is going to slice you, and avoid your attacks much more easily if you just stand in one place. So never stop moving, high, low, side to side, back & forth. Attack and cut from every angle. From over, from under, from every possible stance. Dance, motherflamingo, dance! All this with maximum speed & force. And no blade crossing. Duh! Now work your way up in difficulty. You learn to move like a samurai. You don’t have a choice! I wish the game had settings that enforced these constraints, along with more complex target motion & rotation. And moving/rotating shielded target sides that reduced your attack options. But just imagining the constraints, just as it is, works fine. It also helps to have a large enough area where your VR boundaries are all but irrelevant. And no pauses between songs - one album at a time, straight out. You don’t get a break in battle! One thing I have learned. If I ever had to fight in a real epic 合戦 (gah-sen), I would want my AirPods and tunes!

snapcaster 2y ago
This sounds so awesome. Beat saber but actually sword fighting seems fun as hell. Surprised now this doesn't already exist