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US Trademark Office Cancels Marvel, DC's 'Super Hero' Marks
- cuddlyogre 2y agoGood. Now I hope someone figures out how to abolish software patents.
- gjsman-1000 2y agoNever going to happen; too much investment. Not without something resetting the whole patent system all at once. And hey, I’m not actually opposed to all patents. H.265 - if you put tens of millions into compression research, or hundreds of millions into database scaling research at PlanetScale, a temporary exclusivity period makes sense. 95% of software patents don’t reach that level. I think some of the bad rap also comes from technology advancement. Amazon’s 1-click Checkout patent is notorious; but nobody talks about how much of an accomplishment that technology was in 1997. It actually was very impressive when that patent was granted, particularly in getting the credit card networks to agree to the security design.
- cuddlyogre 2y agoAs a compromise, I suggest the source code must be made public for patented ideas.
- gjsman-1000 2y agoPatents already require that all information be available, for someone similarly invested in the craft, to be able to completely reproduce the invention. That doesn’t require an implementation - but that mirrors our regular patent office, which does not require physical functioning prototypes to demonstrate.
- justinclift 2y ago> Patents already require that all information be available ... That's not always the case. For example, patents around nuclear technology: • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_Secrecy_Act
- yazzku 2y ago"All information be available". Have you filed or read any software patents? Many are so vague that they do not embody any significant "idea" or contribution, and are mostly just a hindrance to actual innovation. And some are just plain stupid, like the patent to average two integers without overflow. Like the parent said, a compromise could be "source or GTFO". But even that seems of questionable value. The shit show gets to the point where many companies file patents defensively. They'll file a patent just in case their competition does it first, even if they have nothing to show for it. And this naturally affects smaller companies disproportionately because they do not have the funds to pay lawyers (there is a hilarious interview on Youtube of a small startup CEO that explains how his company spends more on lawyers than engineers.) So tl;dr, we'd probably be better off without software patents altogether.
- tourmalinetaco 2y agoIn an ideal world, all intellectual property would become public domain after 10-15 years, including all research, schematics, wire diagrams, source code, marketing materials, etc. When you go to the various offices to get your IP recognized you must also submit various materials and continue to do so for the life of your property rights. Again though, in an ideal world. In reality any major changes to something like copyright would probably get you killed even faster than judges who are hard on drugs. The most that we, the people, can do until there’s some amount of backbone in our various countries is to remove ourselves from the primary market wherever we can. For instance, I have been on a successful Nintendo boycott for the last 8 years, and it’s been even longer for Disney. I buy anything I want secondhand or pirate it directly, I don’t pay into SaaS but use alternatives, and I feel a lot happier being ungovernable in this way.
- teddyh 2y agoI direct your attention hither: <https://wiki.endsoftwarepatents.org/wiki/Why_abolish_software_patents https://wiki.endsoftwarepatents.org/wiki/Why_abolish_softwar...>
- gjsman-1000 2y agoA wiki specifically on the topic written by non-lawyers is interesting; but I don’t see why it should be considered an unbiased list of ideas. Sometimes the status quo is imperfect but okay.
- teddyh 2y agoWhy did you specify “non-lawyers”? Did you mean to imply that something written by lawyers would be unbiased? And where did I ever claim that this was unbiased? It’s the “End Software Patents Wiki”; it’s about as biased as it gets. But I thought you wanted arguments, so I linked it. If you want to dismiss them without reading them, that’s up to you.
- jgeada 2y agoHave you ever wondered why lawyers themselves have nothing in their field remotely similar to patents?
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago> Never going to happen; too much investment. Because of the nature of software patents the investment is worthless anyway. One of the biggest problems with software patents is that they're unreasonably broad or ambiguous and then the claims read on arbitrary software the authors of which have never even heard of the patent. Another is that companies purposely patent interfaces that are needed for compatibility, and then the patent isn't needed because it's so great, it's needed to interoperate with existing systems and thereby offers no ability for competitors to design a better alternative because better is different is incompatible. You have to license H.264 even if you build something better yourself -- or you've already licensed H.265 -- because you still have to be able to interact with media and clients that use H.264. Then as between large companies, they all need each others' patents and just end up cross licensing everything. All the effort is for nothing because it just cancels out. As between large companies and small companies, the large companies can sue the small one, but the small company probably doesn't have any money anyway and the suit makes the large company look like a bully and creates PR losses that likely outweigh any benefit from filing the suit. The small companies, on the other hand, can't sue the large ones because the large company would just file counterclaims and (at best) force the same cross-licensing that exists between large companies. So that's worthless. Which leaves the only entities that really like software patents: Patent trolls. Eliminating them is a major economic benefit of eliminating software patents.
- pmontra 2y ago> Then as between large companies, they all need each others' patents and just end up cross licensing everything. All the effort is for nothing because it just cancels out. As you explain in the next paragraph, that creates a moat the protects the large companies from the small ones. They compete against each other but they also collectively defend their own kind.
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoYou're describing another major benefit of eliminating software patents. Even large companies don't actually benefit from that because their suppliers and companies in complementary markets do the same thing, and you lose any time any of those companies can maintain a moat with which to extract rents out of your own market. These are deadweight economic losses. They hurt everybody to benefit the company doing them, but even that company is suffering a net loss because of all the companies doing it back to them. Yet they still do it because it's a tragedy of the commons, unless you remove the mechanism that enables it, i.e. software patents.
- Dylan16807 2y agoThere are plenty of people working on video codecs both in and out of patented realms, with patents hindering progress more than they incentivize it. For PlanetScale, are you sure the patents are necessary when they have copyright on all their code? I'd say that productivity-enhancing software patents are so vanishingly rare that we barely need to consider them. Also software is math, it's not supposed to be patentable.
- rightbyte 2y ago> Amazon’s 1-click Checkout patent is notorious; but nobody talks about how much of an accomplishment that technology was in 1997. How exactly is removing the confirmation prompt for the purchase basket a technical accomplishment?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ndiddy 2y agoH.265 is a great example of software patents going wrong. As it was the first MPEG video standard created after the rise of widespread commercial video streaming, all the patent owners involved wanted to be able to get as much money as possible from the streaming companies. Because of this, we went from the relatively reasonable H.264 licensing terms (pay one patent pool a per-device licensing fee, capped at a total royalty payment of $14 million) to H.265 being covered by three separate patent pools. Between all of them you have to pay royalties on decoding hardware, software, and per-item encoded, and some of the pools don't have caps on royalties. Additionally, some major patent holders aren't in any pools and you have to work out deals with them individually. Here's a summary of the H.265 licensing situation: https://www.slashcam.de/images/news/HEVC-Patent-Pools-14134_PIC1.jpg https://www.slashcam.de/images/news/HEVC-Patent-Pools-14134_... The result is that H.265 hasn't gotten much commercial adoption (the one major use is 4K Blu-Ray). Instead, most major streaming and tech companies have been pushing AV1, which doesn't have licensing fees and takes a "mutually assured destruction" approach to patent enforcement (the AV1 patent license states that if any patent holder tries to sue an AV1 user for patent infringement, they automatically lose the rights to all AV1 patents, opening them up to a countersuit).
- mhandley 2y agoHere's the full article, but turns out it isn't really any longer that you can see from outside the paywall: https://archive.is/jQtuc https://archive.is/jQtuc
- userbinator 2y agoI wonder if this will escalate to fights over trademarking "Ultra Hero" or other superlatives next.
- spacebacon 2y agoSuperb Hero FTW
- lupire 2y agoHawkeye?
- fortyseven 2y agoKlinger?
- MBCook 2y agoI would never have guessed the term was trademarked. It seems far too generic. And if it was granted in the late 60s, that’s what 30 years after Superman? Shouldn’t it have been common by then?
- tourmalinetaco 2y agoIt was. However trademarks, much like patents, are made as generic as possible in order to give the company as much control and value as possible. Tech Dirt is filled with articles of trademark trolling.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lupire 2y agoTech Dirt is an equally generic Trademark as Super Hero!
- tourmalinetaco 2y agoNot really? There’s not an entire genre of fiction titled “techdirt”, nor is it utilized by literally any other media company to market their goods. The only way for a trademark to be generic is if its utilized by large swaths of the market for advertising (i.e “Taco Tuesdays”) or is overly generic and descriptive (i.e. “crab fries”). Techdirt is neither utilized by large parts of the market nor is it generic and/or descriptive.
- ezfe 2y agoMarvel and DC were not the original holders of the term
- bawolff 2y agoTrademarks do not expire ever. The intended point of a trademark is essentially to prevent scams. E.g. nobody is allowed to sell something called an "apple computer" except apple. The interest doesnt change with time. (In contrast the theoretical point of copyright and patents is to allow people to recoup r&d costs. Eventually at some point the holder has had a fair shot at recouping the cost, so there is a time limit)
- martyvis 2y agoA quick search on the Australian National Library archive finds an article titled "A British Super Hero" in a 1918 newspaper. https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129947369 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/129947369
- martyvis 2y agoAnd here is one in the plural from 1928 referring to our Anzac (veteran's) day march. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article115521528 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article115521528
- martyvis 2y agoAnd even a "super-super hero" in 1926! http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article21042874 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article21042874 Apparently Charles Lindburgh was known in the USA as a "super-hero". http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95784232 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95784232
- fsckboy 2y ago>an article titled "A British Super Hero" in a 1918 newspaper trademark does not work like patents, prior art is not a thing. The question is whether anyone else uses the mark in trade, exchanging money for goods/services. Usage outside of that context does not matter. you get diluted and lose your trademark when the public uses the term generically in trade, in your line of business, and not in reference to your product, not just because they use the term. for example, the automobile Mercury Comet is named after two generic things, a Greek god and an space body. So what, they are used in trade for particular automobiles. Comet is also the name of a cleaning product. The two are not in the same line of business, so they don't get confused, and there is no conflict, but you can't start selling another Comet cleaner, or Comet car. While there is no prior art, there is prior use, in trade. But in that case, the trademark belongs to the prior user, not to the world at large. If the prior user stops using it, like Aunt Jemima is no longer used for pancake syrup, then the term becomes free for anybody to use for pancake syrup. (I'll bet that company still uses that name for some pancake syrup product, like for institutional use, so they can stop anybody else from using it.)
- snowwrestler 2y ago> The USPTO's Trademark Trial and Appeal Board ruled for S.J. Richold's Superbabies Ltd after Disney's Marvel and Warner Bros' DC did not file an answer to Superbabies' request to invalidate the marks. So, canceled after the companies declined to defend them.
- lolinder 2y ago> Marvel and DC have cited their marks in opposing dozens of superhero-related trademark applications at the USPTO, according to the office's records. It's not like they haven't been using them, they just knew that at this point they'd have lost if they tried to actually fight it. Most previous groups probably folded immediately under pressure from the giants.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoSo they sued others into folding. But superbabies did not. Was it overconfidence, or a a gigantic blunder in not doing their diligence ? (by the DC legal dept team)
- biorach 2y agoI imagine that the DC legal team were well aware that the trademark was indefensible but figured that the expense of counter suing a well funded industry giant would cause most small players to fold immediately. Their luck ran out in the end but they got a few decades out of it.
- IG_Semmelweiss 2y agoI feel like you missed my point If the DC legal team knew their TM was indefensible, they ought to have picked their battles FAR more carefully. Because sending a demand letter to a target likely to contest the TM, would be the end of the TM. Which is exactly what happened. They could have literally kept their TM - to sue another day - if they had chosen to look the other way with superbabies. So, my point was whether it was hubris that led to the decision to go after superbabies, or failure instituting unsexy (but necessary) internal dilligence checklists.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tape_measure 2y agoInteresting points from https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/myvmamnnavr/MARVEL%20DC%20SUPER%20HERO%20TRADEMARK%20petition.pdf https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/myvmamnnavr/... 5. In 1980—decades after the birth of super heroes—DC and Marvel jointly registered SUPER HEROES as a trademark. 6. DC and Marvel claim that no one can use the term SUPER HERO (or superhero, super-hero, or any other version of the term) without their permission. DC and Marvel are wrong. Trademark law does not permit companies to claim ownership over an entire genre. SUPER HERO is a generic term that should not be protected as a trademark. 7. Trademark law also does not allow competitors to claim joint ownership over a single mark. The purpose of a trademark is to identify a single source of goods and services. 20. DC has accused Superbabies of infringing DC’s “SUPER”-related trademarks, has filed an opposition to Superbabies’ trademark applications (TTAB Trademark Opposition No. 91290757), and has threatened further legal action. DC has asserted the exclusive right to use “the prefix SUPER followed by a generic term for a human being." There's also some examples of SUPER HERO used as a generic term by DC and Marvel. I know of some companies being famously strict about trademark use (example https://www.velcro.com/original-thinking/the-velcro-brand-trademark-guidelines/ https://www.velcro.com/original-thinking/the-velcro-brand-tr...), and yet these uses seem benign. For example, a splash at the top of a comic book "DCs BOLDEST new super-hero" (without TM, with dash). Now I have to be careful about using any of my company's trademarks. I'm not sure I fully understand how this example is generic and harmful.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago> 7. Trademark law also does not allow competitors to claim joint ownership over a single mark. The purpose of a trademark is to identify a single source of goods and services. I'm baffled how this was ever allowed in the first place. It's like Marvel and DC went to the trademark office and said "Yes! We'd like to collude to prevent any other competitors from using these terms." and the trademark office was like "Collusion it is! Have a nice day!"
- em-bee 2y agoyou can license others to use your trademark. so one of them could have trademarked it and licensed it to the other in an exclusive deal.
- tedunangst 2y agoClearing out the easy stuff before facing the final boss: space marine.
- lupire 2y agoDo any of these space marine games have beaches?
- CM30 2y agoHonestly surprised the trademark wasn't nullified earlier. It's pretty clear the term has become genericised at best, and was in common use before the trademark at worst. Guess it shows you the dangers of uneven legal resources, since I suspect if the folks whose trademarks were shot down using this had fought back, it probably would have cancelled way earlier.
- Ekaros 2y agoNo one cares until someone cares. If trademark is not used in any actions to supress others, no one really tracks them. So there is no impetus to clean it up. And I don't think government has resources to iterate over trademark and invalidate generic ones automatically.
- shagie 2y ago... and many things that we consider to be generic ones may have started out specific and become generic through various means. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericized_trademarks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...
- bithead 2y agoI wrote a role playing game I called 'Heroes' in the 80s. I should file something.