16 ms·

Do you think Hezbollah was buying stuff from Israel, or otherwise using Israeli supply chains? I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whateve

by tomp 2y ago

Do you think Hezbollah was buying stuff from Israel, or otherwise using Israeli supply chains? I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whatever foreign (non-Israeli) supply chain they were using. So this can happen regardless of whether you're using Israeli supply chains or not.

tivert 2y ago
> I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whatever foreign (non-Israeli) supply chain they were using. Yeah. Wasn't there something in the Snowden leaks about the CIA intercepting servers in-transit to install implants on them? I'm sure Israel is doing something similar.
- willvarfar 2y ago
  During the cold war, Russia intercepted typewriters and teleprinters going to the US and other embassies and inserted implants in them. https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    And the US CIA ran the "Swiss" firm Crypto AG, which sold cable-encryption (as in telegraphic / telex coms) equipment with pre-installed back-doors: <https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias-audacious-operation-that-gave-them-access-to-state-secrets https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias...> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG>
- grubbs 2y ago
  It was Cisco routers that made the headlines. Not sure of other gear: https://www.engadget.com/2014-05-16-nsa-bugged-cisco-routers.html https://www.engadget.com/2014-05-16-nsa-bugged-cisco-routers...
- craftkiller 2y ago
  Yes there was. @48:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFrjHmI35w&t=48m48s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFrjHmI35w&t=48m48s
- ikmckenz 2y ago
  Photos of an NSA “upgrade” factory show Cisco router getting implant https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factory-show-cisco-router-getting-implant/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...
  - g8oz 2y ago
    No wonder the U.S is so worried about Huawei.
    - dijit 2y ago
      Guilty parties often cast the first accusation.
      - jalk 2y ago
        "Thief believes everybody steals"
        tivert 2y ago
        > "Thief believes everybody steals" The correct analogy for espionage isn't crime. But even taking that framing, if everyone actually does steal, it doesn't do you any good to be naive and deny reality.
        jalk 2y ago
        It's a proverb, not an analogy (hence the quotes). Read it like "Just because you do X, doesn't mean that everybody else does X too"
joe_the_user 2y ago
Do you think Hezbollah was buying stuff from Israel, or otherwise using Israeli supply chains? The modern supply chain is vastly deep. Iran can buy something from (IDK) India which might use software or hardware from Israel. As a further example, unless there's viable phone OS I don't know about, even Hezbollah will be using Android or iOS (and so buying from the US). etc. I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whatever foreign (non-Israeli) Maybe that is more likely. But I don't think my or your guesses matter so much as public perception. IE, it would change the situation that a given customer may look skeptically at an Israeli software or hardware product. Or they may not given that price and features trumps security and quality for nearly everything these days.
ignoramous 2y ago
> So this can happen regardless of whether you're using Israeli supply chains or not. The point is, would allies trust if it were China that pulled this off? Huawei/TikTok were thrown under the bus for way less.
anigbrowl 2y ago
I think the point is that if you're not Hezbollah or any kind of political actor, but just a customer for Israeli technology (public or private), would you really want to keep buying it? Leave aside boycotts over Israeli policy, you might be opening yourself to becoming an Israeli attack vector and either find your own interests compromised or become a target of Israel's enemies if they thought you were complicit.
- tomp 2y ago
  What are you gonna buy? Chinese tech? Iranian tech? Russian tech? Who do you want to be able to spy on you and compromise your hardware? Unless you can spin up your own fab (hint: you can't) you're dependent on a hegemon. US/EU/Israel isn't perfect, but pretty much as good as it gets.
  - frmersdog 2y ago
    I know that this is rhetorical, but I'm sure an analysis of which country is least likely to leave you exposed to the issues mentioned above could be done. I suppose it also depends on who "you" are, and the threat of communications compromise vs drawing the ire of whoever Israel decides to attack through you. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that would rather be bugged by the Chinese or Iranians than be complicit in a way that opens them to actual armed conflict. This is another danger of letting Israel swing its sword around without any sort of real condemnation from the US/West: the rationale for geopolitical multi-polarity increases in legitimacy. Pax Americana ends because allying with us doesn't save you from being used as a tool for ends like this. If speculation is correct that Taiwan is involved... Woof.
  - seydor 2y ago
    > Who do you want to be able to spy on you I buy chinese IP cameras. China cannot block my bank account / employment / communications.
    - dijit 2y ago
      Agreed. All this fearmongering about telegram and tiktok is weird. China can decide what it wants from me- I have no plans to visit or engage with regime; however my life is dependent on the US not thinking of me as interesting. So, the less I give to US companies, the better. Especially as, being a non-US citizen I have no right to privacy afforded to me in the constitution, and US companies can be forced to comply with the government in secret- much in the same way we consider that China does it to even part-owned China based companies.
XorNot 2y ago
It was pointed out to me that you shouldn't overthink it: the most likely thing which happened is Israel had someone inside Hezbollah procurement and used them to take delivery (I'd put much lower odds on this guy being in on the plan, it's doubtful he even knew he was working for Israel directly). You've got to remember that as internet people, we want everything to have a clever storyline to it. Intelligence services exploit that exact expectation though: the first thing you attack is trust within the organization itself, since it gives you more access, more easily and once people have talked themselves into "supply chain threat" there's a real danger they've ignored "actually the guy signing off on the paperwork is taking a payoff to ignore some delivery irregularities".
KeplerBoy 2y ago
meh, the most probable explanation is that israel infiltrated hezbollah and whoever was in charge of ordering and distributing those devices knowingly distributed the tampered devices. That guy got a deal and was evacuated with his family before events unfolded. Seems way easier than alternative plans.

by tomp 2y ago

tivert 2y ago

> I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whatever foreign (non-Israeli) supply chain they were using. Yeah. Wasn't there something in the Snowden leaks about the CIA intercepting servers in-transit to install implants on them? I'm sure Israel is doing something similar.

willvarfar 2y ago
During the cold war, Russia intercepted typewriters and teleprinters going to the US and other embassies and inserted implants in them. https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/ https://www.cryptomuseum.com/covert/bugs/selectric/
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  And the US CIA ran the "Swiss" firm Crypto AG, which sold cable-encryption (as in telegraphic / telex coms) equipment with pre-installed back-doors: <https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias-audacious-operation-that-gave-them-access-to-state-secrets https://www.npr.org/2020/03/05/812499752/uncovering-the-cias...> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto_AG>
grubbs 2y ago
It was Cisco routers that made the headlines. Not sure of other gear: https://www.engadget.com/2014-05-16-nsa-bugged-cisco-routers.html https://www.engadget.com/2014-05-16-nsa-bugged-cisco-routers...
craftkiller 2y ago
Yes there was. @48:48 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFrjHmI35w&t=48m48s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NFrjHmI35w&t=48m48s
ikmckenz 2y ago
Photos of an NSA “upgrade” factory show Cisco router getting implant https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa-upgrade-factory-show-cisco-router-getting-implant/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/05/photos-of-an-nsa...
- g8oz 2y ago
  No wonder the U.S is so worried about Huawei.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Guilty parties often cast the first accusation.
    - jalk 2y ago
      "Thief believes everybody steals"
      - tivert 2y ago
        > "Thief believes everybody steals" The correct analogy for espionage isn't crime. But even taking that framing, if everyone actually does steal, it doesn't do you any good to be naive and deny reality.
        jalk 2y ago
        It's a proverb, not an analogy (hence the quotes). Read it like "Just because you do X, doesn't mean that everybody else does X too"

joe_the_user 2y ago

Do you think Hezbollah was buying stuff from Israel, or otherwise using Israeli supply chains? The modern supply chain is vastly deep. Iran can buy something from (IDK) India which might use software or hardware from Israel. As a further example, unless there's viable phone OS I don't know about, even Hezbollah will be using Android or iOS (and so buying from the US). etc. I think it's far more likely that Mossad has infiltrated whatever foreign (non-Israeli) Maybe that is more likely. But I don't think my or your guesses matter so much as public perception. IE, it would change the situation that a given customer may look skeptically at an Israeli software or hardware product. Or they may not given that price and features trumps security and quality for nearly everything these days.

ignoramous 2y ago

> So this can happen regardless of whether you're using Israeli supply chains or not. The point is, would allies trust if it were China that pulled this off? Huawei/TikTok were thrown under the bus for way less.

anigbrowl 2y ago

I think the point is that if you're not Hezbollah or any kind of political actor, but just a customer for Israeli technology (public or private), would you really want to keep buying it? Leave aside boycotts over Israeli policy, you might be opening yourself to becoming an Israeli attack vector and either find your own interests compromised or become a target of Israel's enemies if they thought you were complicit.

tomp 2y ago
What are you gonna buy? Chinese tech? Iranian tech? Russian tech? Who do you want to be able to spy on you and compromise your hardware? Unless you can spin up your own fab (hint: you can't) you're dependent on a hegemon. US/EU/Israel isn't perfect, but pretty much as good as it gets.
- frmersdog 2y ago
  I know that this is rhetorical, but I'm sure an analysis of which country is least likely to leave you exposed to the issues mentioned above could be done. I suppose it also depends on who "you" are, and the threat of communications compromise vs drawing the ire of whoever Israel decides to attack through you. I'm sure there are plenty of countries that would rather be bugged by the Chinese or Iranians than be complicit in a way that opens them to actual armed conflict. This is another danger of letting Israel swing its sword around without any sort of real condemnation from the US/West: the rationale for geopolitical multi-polarity increases in legitimacy. Pax Americana ends because allying with us doesn't save you from being used as a tool for ends like this. If speculation is correct that Taiwan is involved... Woof.
- seydor 2y ago
  > Who do you want to be able to spy on you I buy chinese IP cameras. China cannot block my bank account / employment / communications.
  - dijit 2y ago
    Agreed. All this fearmongering about telegram and tiktok is weird. China can decide what it wants from me- I have no plans to visit or engage with regime; however my life is dependent on the US not thinking of me as interesting. So, the less I give to US companies, the better. Especially as, being a non-US citizen I have no right to privacy afforded to me in the constitution, and US companies can be forced to comply with the government in secret- much in the same way we consider that China does it to even part-owned China based companies.

XorNot 2y ago

It was pointed out to me that you shouldn't overthink it: the most likely thing which happened is Israel had someone inside Hezbollah procurement and used them to take delivery (I'd put much lower odds on this guy being in on the plan, it's doubtful he even knew he was working for Israel directly). You've got to remember that as internet people, we want everything to have a clever storyline to it. Intelligence services exploit that exact expectation though: the first thing you attack is trust within the organization itself, since it gives you more access, more easily and once people have talked themselves into "supply chain threat" there's a real danger they've ignored "actually the guy signing off on the paperwork is taking a payoff to ignore some delivery irregularities".

KeplerBoy 2y ago

meh, the most probable explanation is that israel infiltrated hezbollah and whoever was in charge of ordering and distributing those devices knowingly distributed the tampered devices. That guy got a deal and was evacuated with his family before events unfolded. Seems way easier than alternative plans.