12 ms·

The Cheating Device (ChatGPT on a TI-84) [video]

335 points by triyambakam 2y ago

The28thDuck 2y ago
I’ve always thought about what student examinations mean post-AI accessibility. We’ve faced a similar problem once students had open access to the internet, but even then there was some work in figuring out what sites are reputable, search queries, etc. Now that burden has been shortened to figuring out what AI tool and what prompt to use for classic exams like essays or tests. Add in the challenge of remote learning and now you have an environment out of your control, not to mention smartphone access prevalently available. It’s difficult to be an effective teacher, and that’s without even considering the social and economic pressures they face.
- pocketarc 2y ago
  It's a shame as well because this stuff -is- important. One could make the argument that this represents a shift in traditional education, and schools will have to stop relying so much on rote memorization, but the reason you need to learn this stuff is so that it's there with you, guiding you through everything you do in your life. Not just "oh I'll look it up", but actually knowing it and carrying it with you in your "context". The standard education system is incredible for raising the baseline level of knowledge of everyone in a society. I can talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or "black holes" with anyone, and they'll know what they are - even if their knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth. Things that 100 years ago would've been cutting edge research, are base education today that virtually the entire population has studied. That comes from schooling, and it's so important to commit to memory. Without that background knowledge, your understanding of everything around you will be limited in ways you won't even be aware of.
  - jackpirate 2y ago
    > I can talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or "black holes" with anyone, and they'll know what they are - even if their knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth. I'm not convinced this is an unalloyed good. Knowing that a disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of "demons" isn't really helpful if you don't have a deep understanding of exactly what bacteria is. See, for example, all of the people who want antibiotics whenever they're sick for any reason. We've just replaced one set of weird beliefs in the general populace with another and given it a veneer of science.
    - iteria 2y ago
      But more people know what bacteria are at a baseline level and what they do with diseases than before when all we had were demons/bad humors/etc. There are functionally illiterate people too in modern day and the average reading level is still elementary school level, but that's vastly better than before when the average person couldn't read at all.
    - rimunroe 2y ago
      > Knowing that a disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of "demons" isn't really helpful if you don't have a deep understanding of exactly what bacteria is. This is a poor example. Even an incomplete image of the germ theory of disease is a massive improvement over thinking illness is caused by demons. An extremely superficial understanding of bacteria as "microscopic organisms which can make you sick" gives good justification why people should do things like wash their hands, cover their mouth when coughing, and not lick the railing on a subway.
    - digging 2y ago
      Knowing the difference between bacteria being living organisms and viruses being not-quite-alive does not qualify as a "deep understanding" though. Further, the presence of people misunderstanding something that most of the population knows pretty well in no way makes teaching that subject to the population bad. Your assertion would require that believing demons cause sickness actually has benefits we've lost.
  - twobitshifter 2y ago
    The memorization vs reasoning limit may soon be passed with some of these AIs. Really need to do the full controlled testing environment set up to have any chance of avoiding it. No calculators and no home work would be the next step. Maybe we will have a generation of mentats?
- lainga 2y ago
  > Add in the challenge of remote learning Why? Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA? > not to mention smartphone access prevalently available Also why? Has there been a change in policy about bag and equipment checks?
  - duxup 2y ago
    >Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA? After COVID many school districts in the US that weren't offering online only school are now. Suddenly they had the capacity to do it as it was forced on them with COVID, so maintain it for students who want it is as easy as anything else.
    - shortstuffsushi 2y ago
      I would argue that unlike "remote work," where the COVID shift made it clear "hey most of us can just work from home" - the K12 "hack fix" most schools implemented was barely sufficient to get through the year or so that students were forced to stay home. I suspect that most standard public schools would do better to drop this offering altogether and leave it to 3rd party online schools, if such a thing exists and can get enough traction to stay alive.
      - duxup 2y ago
        I think there's a big difference between the ad hoc COVID online schooling and actual "doing this with planning and intent" schooling that I've seen.
        digging 2y ago
        I'd agree, but also note that plenty of remote jobs were and still are ad hoc. The difference is adults have more agency to improve their own situation even if their work doesn't make any concessions to the nature of fully remote work; children have very little agency over their schooling.
- duxup 2y ago
  I feel like 1:1 teacher and student discussions are required to be sure someone isn't cheating. With the benefit that each exam would be more enlightening than existing test setups. They both sit together, they chat, answer questions and so on and the teacher gets a feel for "does this student have sufficient knowledge". Frankly I think it would give teachers way better feel for such things than traditional testing does. Granted, it would be time intensive, but I also suspect improved.
  - kevindamm 2y ago
    I like this idea, however I worry that it would be difficult to do it while being consistent (and unbiased). If the same questions are asked of each student then later students might be unfairly prepped. If different questions are asked then it becomes very difficult to normalize scores across the class. The bias risk is self-explanatory and may be unconscious. If you could solve this problem well, you could also probably fix the issues with most interview processes.
  - charlieyu1 2y ago
    What if teachers have clear favor/disfavour of students?
cloin 2y ago
I have super fond memories of high school math classes. That calculator was my first introduction to programming. I’d take the time to write programs for each unit we covered so that I could just input the variables and quickly solve. I had to understand the concept before I could program it so I didn’t really think it was cheating. I did get nervous when SATs came up because I knew my calcs memory would be cleared. I remember my solution was to painstakingly recreate the memory cleared screen and pulled it up before the proctor came around in hopes that they’d assume they already cleared mine. My programming didn’t improve much after high school but I’m still kind of proud of my not-totally-cheating cheating.
- bearjaws 2y ago
  I am in the same boat, I actually learned Pascal and Java in parallel to Algebra. Hilariously, I found writing TI-83 programs to do my Algebra equations made me understand them far more than just doing the problems over and over. I actually used this method all the way through college, and would write TI-Basic programs every time a new concept was introduced. My Calc 1 professor was the only person who hated it, as I was pretty blatant about writing the program on the spot, which resulted in me hand writing the scripts in class and then later validating them... Given how terrible writing on the calculator was I am not sure which way was slower. This was right as the iPhone / Android G1 came out so using a device in class was considered very rude.
  - kjellsbells 2y ago
    I think this is essentially the same reasoning that Sussman et al give for using a computer to explain classical mechanics in their famous textbook (see [0]). By insisting that the student compute with the concepts, they assert that they will get a deeper understanding than if they just read a bunch of formulas. Hard to argue with that, to my mind, although the choice of Scheme as the language is a bit of a mind bender for newbies. [0] https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/books_pres_0/9579/sicm_edition_2.zip/book.html https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/b...)
    - 2y ago
duxup 2y ago
Neat hack. Painfully tedious youtubeisms in that video. The way it is presented I couldn't help but wonder "this isn't how someone who does that thing would tell me they did that thing...".
- sebstefan 2y ago
  Counterpoint: They did that thing and that's how they're telling you :D
  - duxup 2y ago
    I'm not saying they didn't do it, it's just the vibe I get due to the youtubeisms. It doesn't change because someone says they did it, we both just watched the same video ;)
    - tomcam 2y ago
      I’m not quite sure what you mean by YouTubeisms. I assume you mean the breezy, polished presentation? I thought it was a well laid out and enjoyable video. To me, it was an example of superb craftsmanship. I am totally not criticizing or invalidating your impression of it. But the way information is presented has always fascinated me. Doing it better helps everyone. Would you mind telling me what your version of it would look like?
      - girvo 2y ago
        Mine would include much more technical detail. Would make for a terrible YouTube video if one is after views though, which is what the commenters point is :)
      - bonoboTP 2y ago
        > I’m not quite sure what you mean by YouTubeisms The unending barrage of memes, the animations, floating emojis, the music constantly changing pace, the bright colors, "Youtube-voice", etc. etc. Compare it with Ben Eater building a video card: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs (of course the level of detail is higher but just focus on the style, voice, lack of animations and memes. He cracks a joke here and there, but isn't full of Youtubeisms.) And yes, it's a different genre. And yes, some people hate the genre that youtube is filled with these days.
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
In the early 2000's, I created TI-83+ applications for solving various introductory physics homework problems — and copied to a few friends' calculators. Ten years later, a friend's little brother randomly quipped "thanks for doing all my physics homework!" When I saw my own little brother next holiday, he confirmed that his entire physics class had utilized my problem solvers, and most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack. ...memories
- tomcam 2y ago
  Username admirably justified
- mywittyname 2y ago
  > most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack. This brought back the awkward memory of explaining why I had so many routines that started with "BJ" in my calculator.
iAkashPaul 2y ago
A USB MITM board with ESP32 could just connect to your phone & do one-way code/content creation for otherwise software locked devices.
alnwlsn 2y ago
Is the Ti-84 still the gold standard for school calculators? I had an nSpire when I was in school - much higher resolution screen - but most everyone else had a ti-84 or 89. The nSpire was powerful enough to have hacks for it to run full Gameboy games. Many minutes were spent playing Tetris after an exam. Also interesting that I almost never see any overlap between the Z80 TIs and the greater retrocomputing community. Probably because most retrocomputing enthusiasts are too old to ever have used one. The 82/83 is definitely old enough to qualify as a retrocomputer in it's own right.
- namdnay 2y ago
  FWIW my kids in France had to have “numworks” calculators. A lot more modern than the Tis of old (and cheaper!)
  - MengerSponge 2y ago
    And they run python! https://www.numworks.com/ https://www.numworks.com/ There's even a smartphone (iOS & Android) app to give it a try, but the magic of a calculator comes with tactile buttons.
    - alnwlsn 2y ago
      I find it really funny that the newer TI stuff has Python now too. But they just stuck an extra ARM microcontroller on board (which is more powerful than the main ez80 CPU). If it ain't broke, support it for 32 years!
    - xp84 2y ago
      Wow. The single click to get to the full emulator from that homepage is an awesome, refreshing thing to see. Seems like a great calculator (and company) to standardize on. I don't even hate TI, but this thing is clearly far more advanced than the TIs I grew up on. If the 84+ was $40 by now I would feel differently, but I think TI could have at least built something like the Numworks (with things like real fraction notation easier menus, and a lighted color screen) if they wanted to continue charging the same price now as they did 25 years ago for what was then a pretty respectable piece of tech for its time. Instead they did that innovation but only on calculators too overpowered to be allowed on tests, and left that market with a stagnant TI-8x series.
appstorelottery 2y ago
HP32SII got me through physics & maths II exams without all the tedious memorisation. It looked innocuous enough - certainly not programmable to the extent it actually was... a godsend for high-school.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  I had one of those in middle school c. 1990. It had function and program support. The problem with modifying one of those would be it's physically small and lacks I/O. Upgraded to an HP 48GX sophomore year of high school. It worked well for math and physics coursework, AP Calculus BC, and the SAT-I math section. The IR serial port's LED was so powerful, there was a learning TV remote app that could control TVs from ~60-100' (20-30m) away. The ability to beam software to other calculators was just shy of the invention of the app store.
NotAnOtter 2y ago
I knew it was just a matter of time before someone but the bullet and built one of these things
hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
My HP 48GX screams in RPN nerd rage and jealousy.
- voxadam 2y ago
  My 48GX will never be jealous of a damn TI, LLVM or not.
  - hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
    It's all because of those add-in cards containing engineering software. ;) In other news, I have the HP 48GX overhead projector accessory I should dust off and recondition. Also have the thermal printer.
piombisallow 2y ago
You won't always have your AI buddy with you!
guestbest 2y ago
I wonder how big the market to help students cheat is since just about every student I’ve talked to is using it
honksillet 2y ago
I don’t think college profs really have any idea the degree of cheating going on right now. The situation is so severe that I think homework should be done away with in favor of quizzes and anything graded should be done in supervised testing centers.
- rpcope1 2y ago
  I'm sure in the near future the AIs will be smart enough to do literally everything for us, so we can just enjoy fully automated luxury space communism without needing to know anything. /s
  - ben_w 2y ago
    /s noted, how near is "near"? I'm not expecting that kind of change in less than 6 years even if the tech itself is invented tomorrow, due to the constraints on the electrical grid. As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half or the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of AI. If it's the former, then in a few years every human will need a PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they can beat AI on quality.
    - DiscourseFan 2y ago
      >As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half or the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of AI. If it's the former, then in a few years every human will need a PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they can beat AI on quality. Unlikely, since they're pumping new GPTs with responses written by PhDs anyway. It's becoming more and more of a "Wizard of Oz" situation.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        1. There's a lot of superhuman AI out there already, just in narrow domains like protein folding, chess, and so on. 2. Doctorate (and postdoc, and professoral) level responses were already in the training sets. 3. Aim of current AI research is to create a model of the underlying reality which produces the observed signals — what must a PhD candidate have observed for them to write that particular paper, etc. I have no idea if these AI efforts will succeed or not, hence no idea where we are on the S-curve. But that's the goal.
theamk 2y ago
TL/DW: they put ESP-32 inside the calculator and connected it to TI-link port internally. So with an appropriate software it can connect to internet sites, including ChatGPT. Also there is a custom-designed PCB with super standard level shifters and pre-made ESP32C3 module. Git repo: https://github.com/chromalock/TI-32/ https://github.com/chromalock/TI-32/
- e12e 2y ago
  Thank you. Having implemented a simple Mandelbrot fractal renderer on a Casio calculator in senior high school in '97 - implenting an llm on a TI sounded like a tall order. Cool hack, though!
  - Emiledel 2y ago
    I'd love to get a look at your implementation, this sounds brilliant. What do you feel for you through the challenges? More porting, or navigating the core?
    - e12e 2y ago
      I'm afraid the calculator with the code is long dead - but really was a very simple (and very slow) straightforward renderer in whatever the horrible Casio basic programming language was called. As I recall I first implemented a simple zirpenzky gasket - and then wrote a renderer for the Mandelbrot set. Took only about 5 to 8 hours runtime to do a black and white Mandelbrot... I was reading a brilliant book at the time, which I've since donated to a school library (and i fear they in turn threw it away) - can't find the exact book now, I think maybe it was called "A walk through modern mathematics" or something like that. Came out in the 90s and had a bit about various chaos theory stuff in it.
- 3abiton 2y ago
  This looks such a fun project again!
jokethrowaway 2y ago
Programmable calculators were not allowed in any of my classes (2000s in europe), I would have loved that. On the other side, I was programming small applications to cheat on my phone. Latin was a mandatory class in my computer science oriented course of study (I know, completely bonkers) and 3G data was expensive so I wrote some scripts and scraped every possible latin text and translation I could find online and built a J2ME application (horrible platform, but hey, it works) to lookup text. I still remember my friend getting pinched using the application because he translated an extra phrase which was not in the assignment but was in the source on the internet. Good times
moomoo11 2y ago
OT but I started losing interest in math after ap calc. Honestly it was fun af doing math without calculator. Using a calculator took most of the fun out of it for me.
- munchler 2y ago
  Calculators are pretty useless for pure math once you get beyond calculus.
directevolve 2y ago
If I wanted to ensure students weren’t using this, I’d require TI-84s and weigh them before the test :P
- ThatPlayer 2y ago
  I doubt the PCBs weigh too much. There's also a variance in battery weights. Testing it real quick my Li-ion AAAs weight 9g, NiCd 10g, and Alkaline 12g. There's also some Li-ions with built-in USB recharging circuits that I don't know how they effect the weight. So better make sure they remove the batteries too. And who knows about the variances in internals they've done to the TI-84 in its 20 years of production.
- sounds 2y ago
  Much easier - collect all student TI-84s, neatly labeled for return after the test. Hand out stock ones that already had a full reset completed. Don't bother to announce it until the student shows up for the test. Students get the reassurance that their TI-84 won't go through a reset. Schools have extra TI-84s in the back rooms.
ninetyninenine 2y ago
Here’s another cheat I executed. The ti84 has the same encasing as the ti89. Take the circuit board and buttons out of the ti89 put it in the ti84. Voila you have an integrator. Most teachers in calc allow a ti84 and not a ti89 because the ti89 can do symbolic integration. I did this cheat way back. It helps but you’re still required to show work on tests so this just verified all my answers. Be sure to clear screen if teacher walks by.
im3w1l 2y ago
This video kinda hits differently after the exploding beepers.
prvc 2y ago
Slightly tangential, but it is outrageous that high school math classes require their students to buy these expensive calculators. The educational benefit that they supposedly provide eludes me.
- xyst 2y ago
  Not sure where you lived but the TI calculators were usually provided by the school district. I’ll never forget those distinctive yellow graphing calculators with the school district engraved on the back. I never bought my own during high school , but I did buy a TI89 for college courses.
  - prvc 2y ago
    Someone still had to pay for them in your case.
rusbus 2y ago
TLDR: Install a wifi microcontroller _inside_ a TI-84. Make a little app that can talk to ChatGPT.
- dangsucksdick1 2y ago
  [flagged]
BLACK_hHOLE2729 2y ago
[flagged]
robomartin 2y ago
I used to use my HP-41 to help confirm my results. I wrote numerical integration, differentiation and other solvers for it. I would enter the equations and parameters and then work on the problem by hand. Once done, I could look at the result on the calculator and confirm the probability of my answer being correct within a reasonable degree of certainty (in most cases). I think I learned more this way than by simply memorizing equations.
xbar 2y ago
...and then they rewrote all the "calculator allowed" problems because there was no longer a way to permit calculators.
swaraj 2y ago
Like top comment, my first exposure to programming was basic on a ti-86 (better than 83, but quickly outdone by 84 shortly after) My first program was doubly cheating, not only did I have a program for solving quadratic equation, but I copied the basic off the internet in true open src fashion When I told my dad I copied code from internet, he was so disappointed and thought I had 0 skills. Now, we pip/npm/etc install anything and are heroes for choosing to "buy" not "build"
PeterStuer 2y ago
In high school in the early 80s I thought I was clever to use an HP41cv to cheat (it was a very expensive calculator but an accessible first programmable computer). It had 2KB memory and ascii capability. Problem was the data entrymethod was so cumbersome that by the time you had entered the stuff you already remembered it. So it was a net zero gain. At the time though calculators with memory and text were nearly unheard of, so teachers did not even question why there was one on your desk during a french or history exam.
solatic 2y ago
Is it even ethical anymore to build "old" devices with large amounts of space sitting behind bulky plastic exteriors? It lets cheaters put chips into calculators and Israeli spies put explosives into pagers. Should large manufacturers be forced to put electronics into the smallest possible casing, to discourage trying to cram anything else inside?
- chii 2y ago
  > to discourage trying to cram anything else inside? the manufacturers should not be doing anything other than whatever their customers are willing to pay for. Explosives, or cheats, are unsolvable. People, including exam conductors, will have to either spend the time (and cost) to weed out cheat devices, or accept some level of cheating exists.
- darth_aardvark 2y ago
  Israel replaced the electric components with identically shaped components that were explosive. Removing empty space doesn't solve this.
  - solatic 2y ago
    Citation needed? What do you think happened, they refabricated the chips on a smaller process to make room for explosives? How do you make extra room on the component level?
j45 2y ago
In high school my teachers were ok with me writing an app based on the formula sheets on my TI. Some other students had complained, but the teacher knew I wrote the app and it required me to understand the math and risk my grades if I was wrong. One teacher in specific said anyone was welcome to learn to program their calculator as long as they wrote it themselves and no two apps should look the same. I remember giving the teacher my app. I was surprised and thought I might have to delete the app.
m3kw9 2y ago
Now that it's out, it's no longer a cheating device.
ASUfool 2y ago
So many of you are making me feel old. My cheat was to write the formula for quadratic equations for a TI 57 with its 50 step programming capacity. I just put in the a, b, and c values then R/S (run/stop) and it'd spit out the answers on a red LED display for the high school algebra test I was taking in 1980 as a freshman.
- deleted 2y ago
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kbouck 2y ago
Ha. Back in the 90's graphing calculators were not allowed during tests, but normal calculators were... Well there was a model of Casio calculator (can't find the model) which was so diminutive, and with a wide rectangular rather than square screen you never would have assumed it was a graphing calculator. But it was, and it saved my butt on many exams... By now I've forgotten all that basic math, but the ability to program things remained!

335 points by triyambakam 2y ago

I’ve always thought about what student examinations mean post-AI accessibility. We’ve faced a similar problem once students had open access to the internet, but even then there was some work in figuring out what sites are reputable, search queries, etc. Now that burden has been shortened to figuring out what AI tool and what prompt to use for classic exams like essays or tests. Add in the challenge of remote learning and now you have an environment out of your control, not to mention smartphone access prevalently available. It’s difficult to be an effective teacher, and that’s without even considering the social and economic pressures they face.

pocketarc 2y ago
It's a shame as well because this stuff -is- important. One could make the argument that this represents a shift in traditional education, and schools will have to stop relying so much on rote memorization, but the reason you need to learn this stuff is so that it's there with you, guiding you through everything you do in your life. Not just "oh I'll look it up", but actually knowing it and carrying it with you in your "context". The standard education system is incredible for raising the baseline level of knowledge of everyone in a society. I can talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or "black holes" with anyone, and they'll know what they are - even if their knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth. Things that 100 years ago would've been cutting edge research, are base education today that virtually the entire population has studied. That comes from schooling, and it's so important to commit to memory. Without that background knowledge, your understanding of everything around you will be limited in ways you won't even be aware of.
- jackpirate 2y ago
  > I can talk about concepts like "atoms" or "bacteria" or "black holes" with anyone, and they'll know what they are - even if their knowledge of those subjects isn't in depth. I'm not convinced this is an unalloyed good. Knowing that a disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of "demons" isn't really helpful if you don't have a deep understanding of exactly what bacteria is. See, for example, all of the people who want antibiotics whenever they're sick for any reason. We've just replaced one set of weird beliefs in the general populace with another and given it a veneer of science.
  - iteria 2y ago
    But more people know what bacteria are at a baseline level and what they do with diseases than before when all we had were demons/bad humors/etc. There are functionally illiterate people too in modern day and the average reading level is still elementary school level, but that's vastly better than before when the average person couldn't read at all.
  - rimunroe 2y ago
    > Knowing that a disease is caused by "bacteria" instead of "demons" isn't really helpful if you don't have a deep understanding of exactly what bacteria is. This is a poor example. Even an incomplete image of the germ theory of disease is a massive improvement over thinking illness is caused by demons. An extremely superficial understanding of bacteria as "microscopic organisms which can make you sick" gives good justification why people should do things like wash their hands, cover their mouth when coughing, and not lick the railing on a subway.
  - digging 2y ago
    Knowing the difference between bacteria being living organisms and viruses being not-quite-alive does not qualify as a "deep understanding" though. Further, the presence of people misunderstanding something that most of the population knows pretty well in no way makes teaching that subject to the population bad. Your assertion would require that believing demons cause sickness actually has benefits we've lost.
- twobitshifter 2y ago
  The memorization vs reasoning limit may soon be passed with some of these AIs. Really need to do the full controlled testing environment set up to have any chance of avoiding it. No calculators and no home work would be the next step. Maybe we will have a generation of mentats?
lainga 2y ago
> Add in the challenge of remote learning Why? Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA? > not to mention smartphone access prevalently available Also why? Has there been a change in policy about bag and equipment checks?
- duxup 2y ago
  >Are K-12 keeping on with remote classes now in the USA? After COVID many school districts in the US that weren't offering online only school are now. Suddenly they had the capacity to do it as it was forced on them with COVID, so maintain it for students who want it is as easy as anything else.
  - shortstuffsushi 2y ago
    I would argue that unlike "remote work," where the COVID shift made it clear "hey most of us can just work from home" - the K12 "hack fix" most schools implemented was barely sufficient to get through the year or so that students were forced to stay home. I suspect that most standard public schools would do better to drop this offering altogether and leave it to 3rd party online schools, if such a thing exists and can get enough traction to stay alive.
    - duxup 2y ago
      I think there's a big difference between the ad hoc COVID online schooling and actual "doing this with planning and intent" schooling that I've seen.
      - digging 2y ago
        I'd agree, but also note that plenty of remote jobs were and still are ad hoc. The difference is adults have more agency to improve their own situation even if their work doesn't make any concessions to the nature of fully remote work; children have very little agency over their schooling.
duxup 2y ago
I feel like 1:1 teacher and student discussions are required to be sure someone isn't cheating. With the benefit that each exam would be more enlightening than existing test setups. They both sit together, they chat, answer questions and so on and the teacher gets a feel for "does this student have sufficient knowledge". Frankly I think it would give teachers way better feel for such things than traditional testing does. Granted, it would be time intensive, but I also suspect improved.
- kevindamm 2y ago
  I like this idea, however I worry that it would be difficult to do it while being consistent (and unbiased). If the same questions are asked of each student then later students might be unfairly prepped. If different questions are asked then it becomes very difficult to normalize scores across the class. The bias risk is self-explanatory and may be unconscious. If you could solve this problem well, you could also probably fix the issues with most interview processes.
- charlieyu1 2y ago
  What if teachers have clear favor/disfavour of students?

cloin 2y ago

I have super fond memories of high school math classes. That calculator was my first introduction to programming. I’d take the time to write programs for each unit we covered so that I could just input the variables and quickly solve. I had to understand the concept before I could program it so I didn’t really think it was cheating. I did get nervous when SATs came up because I knew my calcs memory would be cleared. I remember my solution was to painstakingly recreate the memory cleared screen and pulled it up before the proctor came around in hopes that they’d assume they already cleared mine. My programming didn’t improve much after high school but I’m still kind of proud of my not-totally-cheating cheating.

bearjaws 2y ago
I am in the same boat, I actually learned Pascal and Java in parallel to Algebra. Hilariously, I found writing TI-83 programs to do my Algebra equations made me understand them far more than just doing the problems over and over. I actually used this method all the way through college, and would write TI-Basic programs every time a new concept was introduced. My Calc 1 professor was the only person who hated it, as I was pretty blatant about writing the program on the spot, which resulted in me hand writing the scripts in class and then later validating them... Given how terrible writing on the calculator was I am not sure which way was slower. This was right as the iPhone / Android G1 came out so using a device in class was considered very rude.
- kjellsbells 2y ago
  I think this is essentially the same reasoning that Sussman et al give for using a computer to explain classical mechanics in their famous textbook (see [0]). By insisting that the student compute with the concepts, they assert that they will get a deeper understanding than if they just read a bunch of formulas. Hard to argue with that, to my mind, although the choice of Scheme as the language is a bit of a mind bender for newbies. [0] https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/books_pres_0/9579/sicm_edition_2.zip/book.html https://mitp-content-server.mit.edu/books/content/sectbyfn/b...)
  - 2y ago

duxup 2y ago

Neat hack. Painfully tedious youtubeisms in that video. The way it is presented I couldn't help but wonder "this isn't how someone who does that thing would tell me they did that thing...".

sebstefan 2y ago
Counterpoint: They did that thing and that's how they're telling you :D
- duxup 2y ago
  I'm not saying they didn't do it, it's just the vibe I get due to the youtubeisms. It doesn't change because someone says they did it, we both just watched the same video ;)
  - tomcam 2y ago
    I’m not quite sure what you mean by YouTubeisms. I assume you mean the breezy, polished presentation? I thought it was a well laid out and enjoyable video. To me, it was an example of superb craftsmanship. I am totally not criticizing or invalidating your impression of it. But the way information is presented has always fascinated me. Doing it better helps everyone. Would you mind telling me what your version of it would look like?
    - girvo 2y ago
      Mine would include much more technical detail. Would make for a terrible YouTube video if one is after views though, which is what the commenters point is :)
    - bonoboTP 2y ago
      > I’m not quite sure what you mean by YouTubeisms The unending barrage of memes, the animations, floating emojis, the music constantly changing pace, the bright colors, "Youtube-voice", etc. etc. Compare it with Ben Eater building a video card: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7rce6IQDWs (of course the level of detail is higher but just focus on the style, voice, lack of animations and memes. He cracks a joke here and there, but isn't full of Youtubeisms.) And yes, it's a different genre. And yes, some people hate the genre that youtube is filled with these days.

ProllyInfamous 2y ago

In the early 2000's, I created TI-83+ applications for solving various introductory physics homework problems — and copied to a few friends' calculators. Ten years later, a friend's little brother randomly quipped "thanks for doing all my physics homework!" When I saw my own little brother next holiday, he confirmed that his entire physics class had utilized my problem solvers, and most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack. ...memories

tomcam 2y ago
Username admirably justified
mywittyname 2y ago
> most had also played my TI-83+ version of Blackjack. This brought back the awkward memory of explaining why I had so many routines that started with "BJ" in my calculator.

iAkashPaul 2y ago

A USB MITM board with ESP32 could just connect to your phone & do one-way code/content creation for otherwise software locked devices.

alnwlsn 2y ago

Is the Ti-84 still the gold standard for school calculators? I had an nSpire when I was in school - much higher resolution screen - but most everyone else had a ti-84 or 89. The nSpire was powerful enough to have hacks for it to run full Gameboy games. Many minutes were spent playing Tetris after an exam. Also interesting that I almost never see any overlap between the Z80 TIs and the greater retrocomputing community. Probably because most retrocomputing enthusiasts are too old to ever have used one. The 82/83 is definitely old enough to qualify as a retrocomputer in it's own right.

namdnay 2y ago
FWIW my kids in France had to have “numworks” calculators. A lot more modern than the Tis of old (and cheaper!)
- MengerSponge 2y ago
  And they run python! https://www.numworks.com/ https://www.numworks.com/ There's even a smartphone (iOS & Android) app to give it a try, but the magic of a calculator comes with tactile buttons.
  - alnwlsn 2y ago
    I find it really funny that the newer TI stuff has Python now too. But they just stuck an extra ARM microcontroller on board (which is more powerful than the main ez80 CPU). If it ain't broke, support it for 32 years!
  - xp84 2y ago
    Wow. The single click to get to the full emulator from that homepage is an awesome, refreshing thing to see. Seems like a great calculator (and company) to standardize on. I don't even hate TI, but this thing is clearly far more advanced than the TIs I grew up on. If the 84+ was $40 by now I would feel differently, but I think TI could have at least built something like the Numworks (with things like real fraction notation easier menus, and a lighted color screen) if they wanted to continue charging the same price now as they did 25 years ago for what was then a pretty respectable piece of tech for its time. Instead they did that innovation but only on calculators too overpowered to be allowed on tests, and left that market with a stagnant TI-8x series.

appstorelottery 2y ago

HP32SII got me through physics & maths II exams without all the tedious memorisation. It looked innocuous enough - certainly not programmable to the extent it actually was... a godsend for high-school.

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
I had one of those in middle school c. 1990. It had function and program support. The problem with modifying one of those would be it's physically small and lacks I/O. Upgraded to an HP 48GX sophomore year of high school. It worked well for math and physics coursework, AP Calculus BC, and the SAT-I math section. The IR serial port's LED was so powerful, there was a learning TV remote app that could control TVs from ~60-100' (20-30m) away. The ability to beam software to other calculators was just shy of the invention of the app store.

NotAnOtter 2y ago

I knew it was just a matter of time before someone but the bullet and built one of these things

hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago

My HP 48GX screams in RPN nerd rage and jealousy.

voxadam 2y ago
My 48GX will never be jealous of a damn TI, LLVM or not.
- hi-v-rocknroll 2y ago
  It's all because of those add-in cards containing engineering software. ;) In other news, I have the HP 48GX overhead projector accessory I should dust off and recondition. Also have the thermal printer.

piombisallow 2y ago

You won't always have your AI buddy with you!

guestbest 2y ago

I wonder how big the market to help students cheat is since just about every student I’ve talked to is using it

honksillet 2y ago

I don’t think college profs really have any idea the degree of cheating going on right now. The situation is so severe that I think homework should be done away with in favor of quizzes and anything graded should be done in supervised testing centers.

rpcope1 2y ago
I'm sure in the near future the AIs will be smart enough to do literally everything for us, so we can just enjoy fully automated luxury space communism without needing to know anything. /s
- ben_w 2y ago
  /s noted, how near is "near"? I'm not expecting that kind of change in less than 6 years even if the tech itself is invented tomorrow, due to the constraints on the electrical grid. As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half or the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of AI. If it's the former, then in a few years every human will need a PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they can beat AI on quality.
  - DiscourseFan 2y ago
    >As for the tech, I can't tell if we're on the first half or the second half of the S-curve for the current wave of AI. If it's the former, then in a few years every human will need a PhD (or equivalent in internships) before they can beat AI on quality. Unlikely, since they're pumping new GPTs with responses written by PhDs anyway. It's becoming more and more of a "Wizard of Oz" situation.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      1. There's a lot of superhuman AI out there already, just in narrow domains like protein folding, chess, and so on. 2. Doctorate (and postdoc, and professoral) level responses were already in the training sets. 3. Aim of current AI research is to create a model of the underlying reality which produces the observed signals — what must a PhD candidate have observed for them to write that particular paper, etc. I have no idea if these AI efforts will succeed or not, hence no idea where we are on the S-curve. But that's the goal.

theamk 2y ago

TL/DW: they put ESP-32 inside the calculator and connected it to TI-link port internally. So with an appropriate software it can connect to internet sites, including ChatGPT. Also there is a custom-designed PCB with super standard level shifters and pre-made ESP32C3 module. Git repo: https://github.com/chromalock/TI-32/ https://github.com/chromalock/TI-32/

e12e 2y ago
Thank you. Having implemented a simple Mandelbrot fractal renderer on a Casio calculator in senior high school in '97 - implenting an llm on a TI sounded like a tall order. Cool hack, though!
- Emiledel 2y ago
  I'd love to get a look at your implementation, this sounds brilliant. What do you feel for you through the challenges? More porting, or navigating the core?
  - e12e 2y ago
    I'm afraid the calculator with the code is long dead - but really was a very simple (and very slow) straightforward renderer in whatever the horrible Casio basic programming language was called. As I recall I first implemented a simple zirpenzky gasket - and then wrote a renderer for the Mandelbrot set. Took only about 5 to 8 hours runtime to do a black and white Mandelbrot... I was reading a brilliant book at the time, which I've since donated to a school library (and i fear they in turn threw it away) - can't find the exact book now, I think maybe it was called "A walk through modern mathematics" or something like that. Came out in the 90s and had a bit about various chaos theory stuff in it.
3abiton 2y ago
This looks such a fun project again!

jokethrowaway 2y ago

Programmable calculators were not allowed in any of my classes (2000s in europe), I would have loved that. On the other side, I was programming small applications to cheat on my phone. Latin was a mandatory class in my computer science oriented course of study (I know, completely bonkers) and 3G data was expensive so I wrote some scripts and scraped every possible latin text and translation I could find online and built a J2ME application (horrible platform, but hey, it works) to lookup text. I still remember my friend getting pinched using the application because he translated an extra phrase which was not in the assignment but was in the source on the internet. Good times

moomoo11 2y ago

OT but I started losing interest in math after ap calc. Honestly it was fun af doing math without calculator. Using a calculator took most of the fun out of it for me.

munchler 2y ago
Calculators are pretty useless for pure math once you get beyond calculus.

directevolve 2y ago

If I wanted to ensure students weren’t using this, I’d require TI-84s and weigh them before the test :P

ThatPlayer 2y ago
I doubt the PCBs weigh too much. There's also a variance in battery weights. Testing it real quick my Li-ion AAAs weight 9g, NiCd 10g, and Alkaline 12g. There's also some Li-ions with built-in USB recharging circuits that I don't know how they effect the weight. So better make sure they remove the batteries too. And who knows about the variances in internals they've done to the TI-84 in its 20 years of production.
sounds 2y ago
Much easier - collect all student TI-84s, neatly labeled for return after the test. Hand out stock ones that already had a full reset completed. Don't bother to announce it until the student shows up for the test. Students get the reassurance that their TI-84 won't go through a reset. Schools have extra TI-84s in the back rooms.

ninetyninenine 2y ago

Here’s another cheat I executed. The ti84 has the same encasing as the ti89. Take the circuit board and buttons out of the ti89 put it in the ti84. Voila you have an integrator. Most teachers in calc allow a ti84 and not a ti89 because the ti89 can do symbolic integration. I did this cheat way back. It helps but you’re still required to show work on tests so this just verified all my answers. Be sure to clear screen if teacher walks by.

im3w1l 2y ago

This video kinda hits differently after the exploding beepers.

prvc 2y ago

Slightly tangential, but it is outrageous that high school math classes require their students to buy these expensive calculators. The educational benefit that they supposedly provide eludes me.

xyst 2y ago
Not sure where you lived but the TI calculators were usually provided by the school district. I’ll never forget those distinctive yellow graphing calculators with the school district engraved on the back. I never bought my own during high school , but I did buy a TI89 for college courses.
- prvc 2y ago
  Someone still had to pay for them in your case.

rusbus 2y ago

TLDR: Install a wifi microcontroller _inside_ a TI-84. Make a little app that can talk to ChatGPT.

dangsucksdick1 2y ago
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BLACK_hHOLE2729 2y ago

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robomartin 2y ago

I used to use my HP-41 to help confirm my results. I wrote numerical integration, differentiation and other solvers for it. I would enter the equations and parameters and then work on the problem by hand. Once done, I could look at the result on the calculator and confirm the probability of my answer being correct within a reasonable degree of certainty (in most cases). I think I learned more this way than by simply memorizing equations.

xbar 2y ago

...and then they rewrote all the "calculator allowed" problems because there was no longer a way to permit calculators.

swaraj 2y ago

Like top comment, my first exposure to programming was basic on a ti-86 (better than 83, but quickly outdone by 84 shortly after) My first program was doubly cheating, not only did I have a program for solving quadratic equation, but I copied the basic off the internet in true open src fashion When I told my dad I copied code from internet, he was so disappointed and thought I had 0 skills. Now, we pip/npm/etc install anything and are heroes for choosing to "buy" not "build"

PeterStuer 2y ago

In high school in the early 80s I thought I was clever to use an HP41cv to cheat (it was a very expensive calculator but an accessible first programmable computer). It had 2KB memory and ascii capability. Problem was the data entrymethod was so cumbersome that by the time you had entered the stuff you already remembered it. So it was a net zero gain. At the time though calculators with memory and text were nearly unheard of, so teachers did not even question why there was one on your desk during a french or history exam.

solatic 2y ago

Is it even ethical anymore to build "old" devices with large amounts of space sitting behind bulky plastic exteriors? It lets cheaters put chips into calculators and Israeli spies put explosives into pagers. Should large manufacturers be forced to put electronics into the smallest possible casing, to discourage trying to cram anything else inside?

chii 2y ago
> to discourage trying to cram anything else inside? the manufacturers should not be doing anything other than whatever their customers are willing to pay for. Explosives, or cheats, are unsolvable. People, including exam conductors, will have to either spend the time (and cost) to weed out cheat devices, or accept some level of cheating exists.
darth_aardvark 2y ago
Israel replaced the electric components with identically shaped components that were explosive. Removing empty space doesn't solve this.
- solatic 2y ago
  Citation needed? What do you think happened, they refabricated the chips on a smaller process to make room for explosives? How do you make extra room on the component level?

j45 2y ago

In high school my teachers were ok with me writing an app based on the formula sheets on my TI. Some other students had complained, but the teacher knew I wrote the app and it required me to understand the math and risk my grades if I was wrong. One teacher in specific said anyone was welcome to learn to program their calculator as long as they wrote it themselves and no two apps should look the same. I remember giving the teacher my app. I was surprised and thought I might have to delete the app.

m3kw9 2y ago

Now that it's out, it's no longer a cheating device.

ASUfool 2y ago

So many of you are making me feel old. My cheat was to write the formula for quadratic equations for a TI 57 with its 50 step programming capacity. I just put in the a, b, and c values then R/S (run/stop) and it'd spit out the answers on a red LED display for the high school algebra test I was taking in 1980 as a freshman.

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kbouck 2y ago

Ha. Back in the 90's graphing calculators were not allowed during tests, but normal calculators were... Well there was a model of Casio calculator (can't find the model) which was so diminutive, and with a wide rectangular rather than square screen you never would have assumed it was a graphing calculator. But it was, and it saved my butt on many exams... By now I've forgotten all that basic math, but the ability to program things remained!