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Amazon bans its drivers from moving their own lips too much at work
- sparrish 2y agoI'm sure there are piss-poor drivers that don't sing along and really good drivers that do. They should drop all the restrictions on 'distracting' activity and just fire poor drivers rather than trying to make poor drivers into good ones.
- cr125rider 2y agoIf you want to pay bottom of the barrel wages you’re gonna get employees that are at the bottom. An accident could cause many times a workers annual wage, so they’re trying to go for preventative measures. I’m honestly surprised they can still find people who want to work for them.
- ryandrake 2y ago> I’m honestly surprised they can still find people who want to work for them. The slow and steady eradication of middle class jobs + the lack of a humane and dignified safety net + the need for food, clothing and shelter. I think very few people want to work as an Amazon warehouse worker or driver, as in make a career of it. It's one of the USA's many Jobs Of Last Resort.
- hnlmorg 2y agoThat’s easy to say when it’s someone with our level of opportunities but some people don’t have a whole lot of other options. And it’s not like Door Dash and Uber are any better.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 0xB31B1B 2y agoIf "singing along" is a leading indicator of being in an accident, then amazon should absolutely not employ drivers that sing along. People get injured or killed in accidents, we dont need to observe them if we have sufficently strong signals that show risk (IE: driving at 100mph, driving while drunk, etc). What I don't understand is if you tell drivers "dont sing along" does that negate the predictive value of "singining along" as a signal for propensity to be involved in an accident.
- teqsun 2y agoI would assume they're really just trying to "catch" people talking on cell phones, and people singing are causing "too many" false positives of the detection system?
- aguaviva 2y agoThat's actually a reasonable explanation. And then it seems the manager failed to articulate that point (or perhaps they did, but people are the meeting were so upset that they weren't quite listening anymore).
- ffsm8 2y agoHow can anyone consider that reasonable? that is an insane overreach by the employer. They should be outraged!
- zamadatix 2y agoI don't know how much Amazon itself really "cares" as much as not having clear safety guidelines and safety systems can result in liability when accidents do occur due to distracted driving on grounds the employer knowingly didn't try to prevent such accidents and was the reason for the employee to be driving at the time.
- SoftTalker 2y agoI think it's reasonable to require "no talking on phones" and I'd even go so far as to say "no listening to music" when you're driving a large commercial truck on the public roads. If you think this is strict, have a look at what UPS requires of its drivers. They have very specific rules for how to do everything related to delivering packages and operating the vehicles. And not that I've specifically focused on it, but I can't recall ever hearing music playing in a UPS truck.
- Sakos 2y agoUPS trucks don't have radios but it's not banned to listen to music and UPS drivers do listen to music when they want to. This is a ridiculous idea.
- banannaise 2y agoDo they think that having to carefully monitor the movement of your mouth might also distract someone who is trying to drive? Or did they not think about that at all because this is somewhere between lip service (heh) to driver safety and an abuse tactic?
- chankstein38 2y agoThis is where my mind was too. On top of that, what is people's response when they're feeling tired on a road trip? Turn up the radio on something fun and sing along to get your energy levels back up. Chew gum to keep their mouths busy. Deep breathing? Sure they could pull over on a road trip but when you're working for Amazon the company known for piss bottles... The option is to, I guess, fall asleep at the wheel?
- egypturnash 2y agoJesus this is some horrible panopticon shit. I hope everyone involved in building the system to do this feels horrible about it being used this way. Really gotta remember to check back in this thread and see if there’s any new accounts claiming to be someone involved in this and talking about how they got to the point where this feels like a sensible business decision.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- poikroequ 2y agoThe sad truth is, most people simply don't care about anything that doesn't affect them. Yes, there are people who do care, like many of us here on Hacker News, but we are very much in the minority. And even among those who do care, very few are really willing to do anything about it, far from enough to bring about any meaningful change.
- fullofshtur 2y ago[flagged]
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- Sakos 2y agoFunny, plenty of people here in the comments are defending Amazon and are absolutely for treating humans like robots.
- poikroequ 2y agoMany of us, not all of us. More so than the average population.
- RGamma 2y agoUnless you've been living under a rock (congrats if so!), you should have noticed the US being on the idiocracy + corporate dystopia timeline. And no, the builders of this don't feel bad. They feel "excited" to be blessed by some 0.1%er's capital and get that FAANG experience on their CV.
- Ancalagon 2y agoStop working for and stop buying from this company unionize, boycott, strike
- bogantech 2y agoUnfortunately they won't, people want their cheap crap right now no matter how much suffering it causes for the underprivileged.
- nickpeterson 2y agoAgreed. People used to be fine with slavery, they’re not going to cancel a useful service over poor working conditions.
- cogman10 2y agoI tend to try and buy direct from electronics sellers but a large number of them sell through amazon. Which is funny because one step I've had to adopt to avoid fraud is going to the manufacturer's website to find where to buy the item. I can't trust the amazon listing that comes up on a search. It's less about wanting cheap crap now and more about amazon having a huge market presence that makes avoiding them difficult.
- mucle6 2y agoIf they're working there, they believe its their best option. If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? Imagine telling them they don't have job anymore because you know better than them whats good for them
- another-dave 2y ago> If you're successful at causing amazon to crumble and they lose their job, would you really feel good? This feels like a bit of a straw man — if Amazon start losing potential sales because people don't like how they're treating their workers, they'll fix their workers rights before they let the company crumble out of spite. Customer pressure is a real lever in these scenarios.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dopylitty 2y ago> No matter how badly Amazon treats its workers, we all keep shopping there This doesn’t have to be true. I cancelled prime and haven’t shopped at Amazon in years.
- tombert 2y agoI suspect most of the people frequent here still use AWS in some capacity if nothing else...
- pavel_lishin 2y agoOnly because of work.
- Zambyte 2y agoWhat does AWS actually offer that is useful that isn't provided elsewhere?
- RandallBrown 2y agoI'm sure there's lots of stuff but you can't really stop using AWS unless you stop browsing a pretty large chunk of the Internet.
- Zambyte 2y agoNot really what we're talking about. We're talking about being a direct customer of AWS vs other providers.
- x3n0ph3n3 2y agoMany of their managed services.
- Zambyte 2y agoLike? Lots of other people provide managed services as well nowadays. I'm not an expert on the matter, but I really feel like anything they offer probably has an alternative at this point if you don't want to use AWS.
- justin_oaks 2y agoIt's time to advertise ventriloquism lessons to Amazon drivers. Or the drivers could protest by wearing masks over their mouths.
- tantalor 2y agoWell, if you want to sing out, sing out And if you want to be free, be free 'Cause there's a million things to be You know that there are
- zingababba 2y ago[flagged]
- Ekaros 2y agoI don't really care what the person delivering my package does. As long as it comes in one piece and have not been violently shaken, crushed or kicked around.
- zingababba 2y ago[flagged]
- zooq_ai 2y ago[flagged]
- BoredPositron 2y agoIf your system requires people to adhere to specific movement patterns for it to function effectively, it suggests that your system is flawed. This requirement only adds to the mental burden placed on your drivers, which contradicts your stated goal of simplifying their experience. But let's be honest: it seems the real objective is to shift blame onto employees in the event of an accident.
- zooq_ai 2y agoPeople have no clue about the actual system and all your information is based on a reddit post. So, yeah the click-bait propaganda site did it's job
- BoredPositron 2y agoMate you said it's probably the same as tesla and comma so I was going with your suggestion for my comment. So what is it?
- ziddoap 2y ago>People have no clue about the actual system and all your information is based on a reddit post Could you enlighten us with your knowledge of the actual system, and clarify what your information is based on?
- tsimionescu 2y agoWhat part of moving your mouth leads to distracted driving? Talking with other people, especially on the phone, is not in any way a significant cause of distraction.
- slashdave 2y agoBut... you're here. I guess you are just as gullible as the rest of us poor slobs.
- delichon 2y ago> No matter how badly Amazon treats its workers, we all keep shopping there. Because they keep working there. So the workers think the conditions are worth it in exchange for their paycheck. If I disagree and shop elsewhere I'm effectively disagreeing with the workers and telling them I think they are making a bad deal and I don't want to contribute to their livelihood. But I don't actually know that they can make a better deal elsewhere. Before I move my purchase to Newegg or whatever should I first make sure that their working conditions are better? Or just judge by how often I see each company mentioned in the media? I think that the voluntary nature of employment is a sufficient circuit breaker. If it gets bad enough we can and do leave for better opportunities elsewhere. It wouldn't be the first, second or third time for me, and that includes minimum wage jobs. So I don't feel the duty to investigate the working conditions of each business I deal with.
- thelastparadise 2y agoWe can all do better.
- kevinventullo 2y agoSlave work was also voluntary in a sense, it’s just that the alternative was your masters torturing and killing you.
- Ekaros 2y agoStill is that way. You can refuse, but you will find yourself in nice tiny room with no distractions...
- mucle6 2y agoEveryone else in this thread frustrates me, but I understand it. Compassion is ingrained in us, while free market economics is not. Nobody here is really thinking through what happens if they are successful at boycotting and destroying Amazon. What would they say to these people they're supposedly helping? "I got you laid off! You don't have to work here anymore! You're free! Maybe you can't feed your family now but at least you can move your lips while you drive!"
- zamadatix 2y agoThis is just a rehash of what their source https://www.freightwaves.com/news/should-truckers-be-allowed-to-sing-along-with-the-radio https://www.freightwaves.com/news/should-truckers-be-allowed... reports which is, itself, almost entirely a rehash of social media commentary on the sourced Reddit post https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonDSPDrivers/comments/1f2y2cp/try_to_tell_me_when_i_can_move_my_own_mouth_im_out/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AmazonDSPDrivers/comments/1f2y2cp/t... Just reading the original quoted mid article without the extra commentary it's clear the story is unrelated to listening to the radio in itself and to do with the camera mechanism monitoring for other forms of distracted driving not being able to tell the difference: > we were told that "a lot of mouth movement will set off the camera" and that we "needed to keep mouth movement to a minimum". Still a shitty system by all counts... but a lot easier to talk about it directly than via rehashes.
- thih9 2y agoLaws agains this kind of workplace environments seem best long term. Still, with the source being one “we were told” I guess we’re not sure if this is this official; this could be a manager’s threat or someone’s inaccurate understanding of what the camera is actually monitoring. Ventriloquism, face masks or humming in the meantime then. Or quitting, like the author of the linked post - perhaps best for now.
- refulgentis 2y ago> Still, with the source being one “we were told” This is not true. It makes me very itchy to see 2 comments in a row using innuendo and deconstructing sourcing in an erroneous way.
- rexer 2y agoHow do you find those comments erroneous?
- refulgentis 2y agoHere, there is not one source saying “we were told” The other handwaves about "rehashing" to wave away Freight Waves, while linking to comments on Reddit. You imply there's only one comment that says "we were told" The other also implies the claim is they cannot listen to the radio.
- m3kw9 2y agoJust wear a mask and talk
- jorblumesea 2y agoHow dystopian.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago> According to Reddit users that Freight Waves cited, Amazon has begun monitoring mouth movements on its drivers through a camera in the cab of its delivery fans. This kind of allegation really calls for a better source than "Reddit users are saying". I'm not saying it can't be true, but there's any number of ways that an anonymous commenter's report of what an unspecified person said in their morning briefing could give a false or misleading impression of Amazon policies.
- andrewstuart 2y agoI notice when I get a taxi often the drivers seem to be constantly talking to someone on the phone, like they have long running low intensity conversations going for long periods of time.
- matwood 2y agoYes! I wondered if I was the only one thinking that. I'm often confused if they are on the phone or not.
- andrewstuart 2y ago>> I'm often confused if they are on the phone or not. Yeah cause there’s long pauses I guess. I get the impression they’re talking to their wives. Maybe just talking to family/buddies. Perhaps these long running low intensity conversations are what Amazon wants to stamp out.
- nemo44x 2y agoProbably talking to friends/family that drive taxi as well. Just passing time while driving around town.
- worik 2y ago"No matter how badly Amazon treats its workers, we all keep shopping there" Who is "we"? Not me.
- icepat 2y agoNor I, I actually live in a country where Amazon mostly does not work. It's how most, if not all major publications talk about Amazon. I see it as part of a narrative of "oh no, anyway", and an attempt to ensure apathy to the whole situation. It's absolutely not an attempt to get us to think critically about how, and from where we consume. If the narrative that Amazon is abusive to their staff, _but we're not going to do anything about it_ like we are told, then we won't think further into other major problems in our western supply chain.
- Terretta 2y agoWe all love data-driven decision making… until we don't.
- MiguelX413 2y agoI don't recall ever doing so.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoI worked with a hospital at risk of de-acreditization. They had worse outcomes than the other hospitals around them (people were way too likely to get infections at the hospital, die, etc). Turns out they had more gut knife wounds than any other hospital. All data driven decision making shutting them down would have done was make the next nearest hospital the one with worse outcomes, and so on, and so on. Plus I'm guessing the best data driven safety change would be a reduction of package delivery load if Amazon is really doing data driven safety changes.
- jmward01 2y agoI had a discussion with someone recently about how tech is enabling enforcement of laws/policies/etc at a scale never before possible and how that is a bad thing. The problem is that people can't conform perfectly and the tighter we force people to conform the more likely they are to 'break' and disconnect from society. Basically, if 'acceptable' is so narrowly defined that you can't achieve it 100% of the time, why try even a little to conform? In companies there is somewhat of an off-ramp, quit (which isn't always a realistic option obviously), but these enforcement abilities are invading areas that we can't avoid and that is a real problem.
- izacus 2y agoHappines in society lives in the slack - that is, having rules, but not having them too tightly enforced and with a lot of leeway and context. The modern mindset prevents that - it's beaurocratic, rigid and extremely oppressive. Technology just helps with that, but if you look at even posts online you'll see that it's the mindset that DEMANDS punishment for any rule breaking no matter how small and how stupid it is.
- morkalork 2y agoIt's like rolling stops at stop signs, a majority of people do it, it's socially accepted! Could we use technology to prevent it? Yes. Should we? I'd hope not.
- jjk7 2y agoAutomated speed enforcement cameras make me want to don a mask and sneak out at night with a drill and a can of spray foam.
- gretch 2y agoWhy wouldn't you direct this same sense of vigilante justice toward people who speed excessively and hurt other people? Speeding does happen and it does kill people - https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/813473.pdf https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... Just to be clear, I don't like red light cameras either, but if you are gonna put on a mask and fuck some shit up, why don't you wait outside of a bar and wait for drunk drivers?
- mig39 2y agoWear a facemask. For safety. Problem solved.
- datadeft 2y agoAmazon needs slaves or robots whichever is cheaper.
- millerm 2y agoSeriously, this is why people need unions. People need to be represented so that they don't get fired when trying to fight stupid things. If the camera's backend detection system is so bad wit distracted driving alerts, then they will just have to manually view all videos that are alerted. If everyone banded together tomorrow and didn't show up for work for 1 day, these problems would be solved. But, again, you can't even attempt such things as you'd be fired on the spot.
- Buttons840 2y agoI'm reminded that: > The life of the American worker is inherently undignified [0] Also, if you Google "Hacker News Undignified" you will find a bunch of posts related to work, even though there is nothing in the query that is inherently related to work. I don't know the first thing about making documentaries, but a documentary simply titled "Undignified" that covers the bullshit workers have to go through would hit hard I think. Just give voice and documentation to the extra burdens so many workers have to endure; can you go to the bathroom when you need to? If you have a stationary job, can you sit? Or do you have to stand for 8 hours straight? Can you sing to the radio, or will a computer algorithm punish you for it? Etc. All of these burdens are optional, our society could accomplish its work without these hardships, but we choose not to. The delivery driver can both deliver packages and use a restroom, and a grocery store checker can scan items while sitting on a stool. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36264363 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36264363 and https://dirt.fyi/article/2023/06/bad-waitress https://dirt.fyi/article/2023/06/bad-waitress
- crmd 2y agoA workers union would never allow this. For example the ALPA in the United States where I live has strict rules about when the cockpit voice recorder can even be accessed and by whom. Even after an accident it’s virtually never released - only the radio traffic.
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoAmazon has used layers of 'delivery contractors' who 'employ' the delivery drivers to bust any unionizing. Recently it was ruled that Amazon is a co-employer so they won't be able to continue that tactic going forward. Amazon is a horrible company. https://teamster.org/2024/08/teamsters-win-groundbreaking-joint-employer-decision-against-amazon/ https://teamster.org/2024/08/teamsters-win-groundbreaking-jo...
- spankalee 2y agoI really dislike Amazon and already don't shop there, but am I the only one who can at least consider the idea that this isn't necessarily unreasonable? Driving is dangerous, period. I don't think we'd object as much to Amazon trying to make sure that drivers don't text and drive. Talking and driving isn't as distracting, but it is at least somewhat distracting. I've definitely seen cab drivers chatting away, driving aggressive, and missing little cues that could have easily led to an accident. Amazon is pretty understandably trying to limit liability and disruption here. The drivers are not on personal time in personal vehicles. They're on company time in company vehicles, and employers almost universally regulate employee behavior to some degree or another. Now, maybe this isn't effective, or a step too far, and they should certainly improve their talking detection, but I wouldn't personally dismiss the intent and approach out-of-hand. It could realistically actually save a life. edit, to clarify the question I have here: What behavior is reasonable for Amazon to monitor and regulate for drivers? Any? Something just less than this?
- JohnMakin 2y agoI kind of agree with the spirit of what you're saying but not really - at amazon's scale, even a 1% increase risk of traffic accident amongst their massive fleet means a significant number at the end of a fiscal year in terms of cost. Then, it seems like a good decision and not unreasonable. IMO the unreasonableness is that a company like Amazon is allowed to scale to a size where this kind of monitoring is deemed necessary to the bottom line - a smaller company doesn't really care as much about that small increased risk because the effect on their bottom line isn't as large compared to the cost of implementing controlling measures like this.
- millzlane 2y agoAside from their bottom line there is the human element. How many other people does the 1% of the increased risk of traffic accidents affect? We can say this is for the benefit of the company sure, but any company with a large fleet trying to reduce traffic accidents regardless of their reasoning is a net win for society.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y agoAnd this is why you need GDPR or similar privacy laws. GDPR is a bit more than just cookie notices. I'm pretty sure that this would be a textbook case and if a company tried to continue such a program after being told to stop it, they'd have a good chance of paying the 4% of global revenue max fine for it. Labor laws in many countries would also have an opinion on such a system.
- fsckboy 2y agoI would rate myself as an extremely good parallel park-er, switch vehicles? no problem. However, I must shut the music off. not sure what that says about my brain.
- netule 2y agoSame, but I can’t do a long drive without wailing along to some tunes.
- paxys 2y agoAmazon can somehow successfully (1) control a driver's working conditions to the extent that they dictate how much they are allowed to move their lips and (2) argue that they aren't employees but independent contractors. What a world.
- qwertyuiop_ 2y agoI can only imagine how this started at Amazon. Self aggrandizing midwit (middle or upper middle management): “I need a project to demonstrate “leaders are right a lot and invent & simplify” principle come feedback time.” Self aggrandizing midwit to their team: “Remember we have cameras in delivery vans go figure out what else we can do with them” Shaking in the boots middle manager or IC: “Hey remember the drivers occasionally hit the curbs because they don’t have time to pee, we should look at their faces use our awesome Rekognition stack to bang this out” Midwit: Great I will write a PRFAQ ! IC: Here it it boss, i banged out the PoC without going to the bathroom all day! Midwit: I am glad WE ALL WORKED TO GET THIS OUT.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- OptionOfT 2y agoIs this about singing or being on the phone (even while on headset?)? And the singing merely gives false positives? I've been in Ubers where the driver was constantly on the phone. While they do it handsfree, actually calling on the phone, whether handheld or handsfree, massively increases the risk of an accident. (I've always wondered why handsfree calling is considered safer than handheld calling when you drive an automatic).
- seoulmetro 2y agoThis isn't about singing. This is about foreigners talking on the phone while driving. It's uncanny but nearly every foreigner I've seen doing gig work has their phone to their ear talking in their home tongue. Nothing wrong with that unless they're driving. 1. It's distracting, truly distracting. 2. It's a possible means of working while at work. It's actually good that Amazon didn't just record the convos and reprimand people based on an AI oversight of whether it breaks the above rules.
- moltar 2y agoIt’s probably not for singing but for talking on the phone. Even blue tooth talking definitely distracts.
- known 2y ago[dead]
- autoexec 2y agoThe fact that amazon has cameras pointing at the drivers all day long is creepy enough. They force their workers to piss in bottles and then they film/watch them doing it?
- fire_lake 2y agoThere can be no joy, only the efficient allocation of capital.
- Havoc 2y agoThey want robots. And while we wait for ai the humans just have to pretend to be ones. Artificial robots if you will