13 ms·

The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection

379 points by jandrewrogers 2y ago

clarkrinker 2y ago
I was looking for research papers for the 9 non invasive vagus stimulators I get ads for on instagram. Anyone have success with these for anxiety/depression
- hi41 2y ago
  Art Of Living’s course 1 Sudarshan Kriya offers breathing course which activates the vagus nerve. I have attended this course. It claims to reduce anxiety, depression and addiction. I have not practiced it regularly. Sorry to say that. Here is that article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573542/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573542/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Living_Foundation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Living_Foundation I hope this helps. I wish you good luck on your journey to good mental health.
- salad-tycoon 2y ago
  Just caution, don’t turn it up to much and don’t overdo it. More is not better. A style of it can be had cheaply with a TENS 7000 and ear clip set off of Amazon. You will find research and anecdotes to support your decision either way. That’s a truism that’s always been true but perhaps especially in this day and age of overstimulated people and an endless amount of content generators. Ultimately if you think it’s working then it’s working. A lower risk way is probably breathing techniques and meditation apps.
- sys64739 2y ago
  I'm using a Dolphin Neurostim VNS to recover from COVID-induced anxiety. I'm getting better over time, especially my sleep, so maybe it's working? I had really bad depression for a while too, and that's mostly cleared up. It's not cheap but it's an FDA approved therapy for a number of conditions. It sends microcurrent (literally - millionths of an amp) through the two halves of the vagus nerve via the left tragus to the left wrist, and from the right concha to the belly. Each half takes about fifteen minutes. When I started using it I had some weird moments where my heart would skip a beat, but I ramped up the treatment durations over a couple weeks and now the treatments are uneventful. Supposedly it's much safer than TENS units which deal with currents that can overload your nervous system. BTW, look into Silexan lavender oil too ("Calm Aid"). Supposedly better therapeutic outcomes than prescription antidepressants and anxiolytics, especially at 160mg doses.
Nav_Panel 2y ago
I really wish these articles cited more primary sources. I would love (and prefer) to review the empirical work that led to the communicated understanding of these systems.
- jimiray 2y ago
  Look up Polyvagal Theory by Stephen Porgess. https://www.stephenporges.com/ https://www.stephenporges.com/
  - throaway827 2y ago
    but is the polyvagal theory backed up by concrete scientific evidence? i’ve heard tons about it but practitioners never seem to have real statistics about it all. i thought that the polyvagal theory has never been actually proven?
    - bolangi 2y ago
      Porges started with studying the difference in the length of successive heartbeats, and the nerve systems that control this variability. He accumulated lots of data, and published his findings. He looks at the function of the different branches of the vagus nerve before he eventually connects the state of the vagus nerve with the functioning of the social engagement mechanism--the system that enables us to recognize faces and read their emotional signals. He also connects the vagus nerve with fight-or-flight survival mode of the organism, vs. the rest-and-recuperate mode where resources are made available for healing. It is well-founded, plausible, has good explanatory power for how (to give one example) family visits to a hospitalized family member contribute so greatly to their recovery.
  - GavinMcG 2y ago
    Isn’t that what the article specifically says lacks scientific support? Thus why the comment is hoping for primary sources.
  - mkl 2y ago
    From the article: > However, some people have taken the vagus nerve’s expansive bodily influence as an invitation to engage in pseudoscience. In some corners of the internet, so-called polyvagal therapy — physical or breathing exercises that some claim reset the vagus nerve — is proposed to address(opens a new tab) just about any disorder of the mind or body. There’s little to no evidence that these popular remedies are anything but placebos.
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers, and this circuitous cranial nerve (XII?) is as beautiful and complex as the multibranch plexus-es (e.g. brachial). So delicate. Human anatomy, at first glance, often seems wrongly-engineered. After you've worked inside dozens of people, you begin to realize that everybody is unique — and nobody is "textbook" anatomy. Who knows what all this goop even does?! If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this humbling human experience. My hope is that my own cadaver is ripped apart by somebody as crazy/appreciative as me =D
- nojs 2y ago
  How does one get this chance?
  - stephenitis 2y ago
    I watched a fullautopsy in a theater high school at the Walter Reed National Military, followed by an open heart surgery. I'm sure there are videos of this. Beware it's a lot they pick apart the human body.
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
      >it's a lot they pick apart the human body. The chest opener is one of the scarier physical tools within surgery... "ca-RACK-k-k-k-KK"
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    Multiple options, including: attend medical school; become employed by an anatomy farm. As for "chance of being hacked apart," anybody can donate their cadaver to science — most facilities require prior enrollment and will recover the corpse, nationwide. You might end up sold into scientific experimentation... if you're morbidly obese (e.g.) you won't be used for student anatomy (if you care).
    - salad-tycoon 2y ago
loceng 2y ago
My vagus nerves were constantly being compressed until roughly 4 months ago, when I had bilateral Eagle's syndrome surgeries - Eagle's syndrome a hardening, calcification-ossification of ligaments that connect from the styloid process and wrap around the neck connecting to front of throat; I had played American football for all of high school and most likely the cause from reptitive injuries/trauma to the tissues. Well, this understanding, if true, could help explain why the severe-debilitating pain level I've had would very easily cause me to get completely lost in the pain - where I couldn't get my mind going, couldn't focus past the pain, would be lost and fully distracted by the pain if I didn't 1) keep my activity level as low as possible (even slight movement of my neck would strongly worsen the symptoms of Eagle's syndrome, particular to the right - a commonly described symptom that one side is much worse), and 2) if I had had any inflammatory foods during the prior 2-3 days or 5 days if dairy. Now my struggle is, now that my nervous system isn't so interfered with with my vagus nerves' signaling no longer being interfered with - my nervous system is working far stronger now, so I feel the remaining few areas of pain far more strongly - and along with that emotionally the experience is far harder as well, far more aggravating; and I arguably no longer get as easily lost in the pain anymore, but now that I am more often connected to my mind, the remaining more strongly experienced pain is more constantly disruptive - whereby the disconnect otherwise was arguably a sort of coping mechanism; being lost in pain is not fun, but at least then routine could act as a functonal crutch. The biggest problem now though is it is even more difficult to get my mind focused on a specific task that I need to get done, having had severe executive dysfunction that had slowly been improving over the years as I played whack-a-mole to knock out the next strongest sources of pain - but now trying to organize and get together what's needed to book next diagnostics for next likely needed treatments to get last 2-3 major-excruciating remaining pain sources has been so difficult now, the uphill battle has turned into a steep cliff; the biggest problem is I am in Canada, Ontario specifically, and the knowledge and competency-critical thinking here is absolutely abysmal - where I've had to spend likely now over $800,000 for medical treatments in the US over the last ~8 years, and now struggling to find competent dentists - made worse by a dentist 1+ year ago - lastly being bounced around I think to 5 different dentists now the past 3 months. My story is more complex than this however. My issues with pain only started after "successful" LASIK eye surgery ~12 years ago caused my nervous system to get overwhelmed - causing central sensitization - was the tipping point or the "final straw that broke the camel's back." Prior to LASIK my mind could handle suppressing whatever underlying pain the injuries and nerve compressions I had; so there is definitely a factor of compounding and arguably amplification (along with hyperalgesia, a hyperesensitivity to pain) between different the eyes and the rest of the body-brain. I'm at my wit's end, and as pain has localized, unmasking the remaining pain sources more strongly, it appears there's a possibility while LASIK may have been the impetus - it may have been the teeth damage-specific teeth pain but overall bite occlusion causing severe sensitization via disruption of my reflexes-autonomous nervous system, essentially TMJ-TMD but only problems runaway guarding-muscle spasming that's compressing nerves - and then perhaps TMJ-TMD guarding compounding with the Eagle's syndromes; and then perhaps also with the corneal damage that happens in 100% of LASIK surgeries, of which there is nothing more I can try to reduce that as a source of pain.
xyst 2y ago
Human body is very flawed. Damage to this nerve can result in systemic failure. When are we going to get an update? Evolution, pls fix!1
- moffkalast 2y ago
  Maybe we can replace it with a CAN bus. Or PCI express. https://xkcd.com/644 https://xkcd.com/644
  - jona-f 2y ago
    Elon Muskollini is working on it. Imagine a subscription service 1000€ for another month to live. Living as a Service. The shareholders are ecstatic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink
- conradev 2y ago
  My favorite bugs are the ones that are too low priority to fix, like this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex The exact pathophysiology is still unknown but it’s a variation on “the nose nerves and the optic nerve are too close together”
  - chucksmash 2y ago
    The joy of explaining your sneezes every time you see a bright light during cold/flu/pandemic season. I'm surprised to see it affects 20+% of the population because I've never met anyone who knew what I was talking about when I said "sorry, light makes me sneeze"
    - bl0b 2y ago
      Ha! I have it too. Doesn't feel like 20% but we're out here
      - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago
Has anybody tried vagus nerve stimulation? I tried it but didn't get anywhere much.
- nprateem 2y ago
  Some kinds of meditation stimulate it. I've tried those. Where did you hope to get?
  - amelius 2y ago
    Not GP, but there is https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201907/vagus-nerve-stimulation-via-the-outer-ear-takes-center-stage https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201... Not sure if this is a good idea though.
- albastru 2y ago
  There is this technique: https://therapyinanutshell.com/vagus-nerve-exercise/ https://therapyinanutshell.com/vagus-nerve-exercise/ that seems to stimulate the vagus nerve.
- rkou 2y ago
  Place your hands on the back of your head, with the fingers interlocked, and the thumbs pointing down gently pressing/rubbing on your neck. Slowly move your eyes to any fixed direction (say, to the right) and keep your eyes open, staring to the right. This will initiate a yawn or deep sigh in most people, stimulating vagus nerve.
  - kvgr 2y ago
    What kind of sorcery, i tried this and yawned within second.
  - wincy 2y ago
    Interesting, another poster called it sorcery but I tried it three times and nothing happened.
fsckboy 2y ago
>The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection if it does, then the vagus nerve orchestrates the brain-body connection. the mind-body problem, or if you prefer the mind-brain problem, remains unsolved. and apparently, mind-brain confusion persists as well.
- dwaltrip 2y ago
  Mind-body is the term that’s used in this context.
- nis0s 2y ago
  Part of the problem is the idea of mind-body duality. Your body is your mind, but a physiological reaction relayed from a nerve is only part of the equation that’s you.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    >Your body is your mind, but a physiological reaction relayed from a nerve is only part of the equation that’s you. you are presenting an untestable-and-only-descriptive-hypothesis as a theory. if we assume that what we know about it today is all there is, then yes, it must be your way. But why assume that what we know is all there is, that assumption has always turned out wrong for thousands of years? Better to say "we don't know what the nature of the mind is or where it comes from beyond the clear evidence that it's tied to the brain."
    - lariattra 2y ago
      The problem is 400 years ago people would have said exactly this about the soul. It seems very possible the mind is just a superstitious artifact but this idea persist in various forms because to let go of it truly means the lights go out at death. We seem incredibly good at telling ourselves stories to deny that reality.
      - BoxOfRain 2y ago
        There's no 'I think therefore I am' equivalent for the notion of a soul as there is for the notion of a mind though, it's easy to say there's no such thing as a soul for lack of evidence but I don't think you can relegate the mind to same category as trivially. If the mind is a mere illusion then what is the nature of the thing being deceived by that illusion for example? I don't think it's necessary a fear of death which makes theories that eliminate the mind unappealing to many either, personally I find the idea of oblivion a lot less unsettling than many of the proposed afterlifes!
howmayiannoyyou 2y ago
After almost everything else failed I tried VNS for Restless Leg Syndrome. Didn't work either. Really had high hopes for it.
- midgetjones 2y ago
  Have you tried magnesium? I've found the oil spray applied to the soles of the feet effective.
ionwake 2y ago
Story of a friend . Working 7 day weeks , big deadline. Poop. Faint. wtf? Job ends. Years later never happens again. Working 7 days a week makes your vagus nerve sensitive and under stress can shut you down as a defence mechanism. Never knew this, have always advised friends to be very careful when under stress for long periods of time.
poszlem 2y ago
Just a random "vagus nerve story". A while back, I started having weird heart flutters that turned out to be extra heartbeats (doctors call them PVCs and PACs). Sometimes I'd be fine for days or even weeks, but then they'd come back pretty bad. After a bit, I noticed these flutters were linked to what I ate, which seemed really strange. I couldn't figure out how my food could make my heart skip beats. I saw a bunch of heart doctors for almost a year before I found one who knew what was up. He told me I had something called "gastrocardiac syndrome." Apparently, not many heart doctors know about it. It's basically when acid reflux in your stomach messes with the vagus nerve. The doctor gave me some medicine to stop the acid (PPIs), and just like that, my weird heartbeats went away completely.
- BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
  This has to be super common. My wife and I both are acutely aware of acid reflux causing flutters and other weirdness. During her pregnancy it got worse, and after a full cardiac workup her doctor's best guess was interaction w/ the vagus nerve.
- simple10 2y ago
  I've also had a couple brushes with vagus nerve stimulation. While in a specialized chiropractor's office undergoing traction to correct an old neck injury, I passed out. Apparently this is quite common, especially when blood sugar is low. The vagus nerve does all sorts of weird stuff, including acting like an off switch.
pedalpete 2y ago
Though we have an understanding of what the Vagus nerve does, and I think this article misses that it is involved in both calming and stimulating the para-sympathic nervous system (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but the challenge with any of the "therapies" that apparently stimulate the vagus never is that we can't measure the vagus never directly, and are therefore making assumptions that this is the pathway these therapies are taking. I had built a "vagus nerve stimulation app" a while back which used vibration to enhance calm. I did some measurements comparing this vibrating stimulation to neurofeedback with a Muse device, and the results seemed positive, but because we couldn't say specifically which mechanism was being triggered, and that it wasn't more than just "listening to calm music", we didn't pursue it.
reallyeli 2y ago
[flagged]
- xpe 2y ago
  This struck a nerve with me as well.
  - spacebacon 2y ago
    The nerve of this guy.
    - xpe 2y ago
      I'm sorry, was someone axon for your opinion?
      - spacebacon 2y ago
        Guess it's time to synapse a new pun into the mix.
simple10 2y ago
For anecdotal data, I'm a big fan of Apollo Neuro. It's a small band worn on the wrist or ankle and vibrates to stimulate the vagus nerve. Similar effect to tapping on your wrist. The sleep mode seems to improve my deep sleep scores on my Oura ring. I haven't done any proper data analysis to confirm. Apollo Neuro claims to have lab data proving efficacy: https://apolloneuro.com/pages/science https://apolloneuro.com/pages/science Even if it's more of a placebo effect, I still enjoy the benefits of devices like this.
- Handprint4469 2y ago
  Interesting! This is the second time I see a strong recommendation for that product (first one was [0]). Seems pretty expensive ($300) for a vibrating bracelet. Couldn't you emulate the effect with an Android smart watch and a custom app? [0] https://acesounderglass.com/2023/05/08/product-endorsement-apollo-neuro/ https://acesounderglass.com/2023/05/08/product-endorsement-a...
- mkl 2y ago
  The vagus nerve doesn't go anywhere near your wrists or ankles, and that science page doesn't mention the vagus nerve at all.
  - simple10 2y ago
    Correct, the vagus nerve itself doesn't extend into wrists and legs AFAIK, but other nerves connect to it. Wrist tapping and acupuncture stimulation of points on the wrists are quite common. I'm assuming devices like Apollo Neuro target a similar effect on those pressure points on wrist and ankles. Here's a random article about vagus nerve and acupuncture [1]. I'm not sure about actual pubmed type studies. On a personal level, I think these devices are well worth giving a try. Just pick one with a good return policy if it doesn't work for you. [1] https://www.morningsideacupuncturenyc.com/blog/acupuncture-and-the-vagus-nerve#:~:text=Pericardium%206%20(PC%206)%20%2D,system%20and%20increase%20vagal%20activity https://www.morningsideacupuncturenyc.com/blog/acupuncture-a....
xpe 2y ago
I’m curious about other organisms that have a split between the vagus and the spinal cord. What explanations might helps us understand why evolution went in that direction? What is our most distant ancestor that does not have the split?
swayvil 2y ago
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bentt 2y ago
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jimiray 2y ago
Polyvagal Theory is a huge part of how I teach yoga to veterans. There’s a great book by Dr Arielle Schwartz - Applied Polyvagal Theory in Yoga. It does work, it can’t cure PTS(D) but it does provide relief if only for an hours r of class.
- optymizer 2y ago
  From the article: > However, some people have taken the vagus nerve’s expansive bodily influence as an invitation to engage in pseudoscience. In some corners of the internet, so-called polyvagal therapy — physical or breathing exercises that some claim reset the vagus nerve — is proposed to address(opens a new tab) just about any disorder of the mind or body. There’s little to no evidence that these popular remedies are anything but placebos.
nis0s 2y ago
Physiological responses, the kind relayed from major body organs to the brain via the vagus nerve, are not necessarily your “mind” in the sense that they contribute towards your conscious actions or self-directed goals. But yeah, they send signals which can be interpreted one way vs. another depending on if you’re being mindful. Arousal is especially interesting because you can compress a nerve in the right way and experience something you don’t actually feel or want to feel. Feelings, however, are not the “mind”, i.e. the self-directed, persistent and conscious entity. I think it’s important to say this because people often fall into the trap of thinking physiological responses are indicative of consciousness. Another cool thing about the vagus nerve is what happens when people get vagotomy (from Wikipedia) > Researchers from Aarhus University and Aarhus University Hospital have demonstrated that vagotomy prevents (halves the risk of) the development of Parkinson's disease, suggesting that Parkinson's disease begins in the gastrointestinal tract and spreads via the vagus nerve to the brain.[24] Or giving further evidence to the theory that dysregulated environmental stimuli, such as that received by the vagus nerve from the gut, may have a negative effect on the dopamine reward system of the substantia nigra, thereby causing Parkinson's disease
- fredgrott 2y ago
  its even more complicated than that... -Parkinson's has lower amount of GI lining -Parkinson's is a severe lowering of dopamine...how severe...patients take 1800mg dopamine daily.... Almost kissing cousin to ADHD....
- teuobk 2y ago
  Unfortunately, that link between vagotomy and reduced risk of PD hasn't been supported by subsequent studies. In fact, it wasn't really even supported by the initial study[1]: although the point estimates of the hazard ratios were below 1.0, the confidence intervals did not exclude 1.0 -- or stated differently, at p<0.05, the null hypothesis cannot be rejected. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.24448 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.24448
  - nis0s 2y ago
    Cool, interesting! Though I wouldn’t be surprised if there are such links, even if this one is not supported by further research. We know that gingivitis can lead to heart disease, so I wouldn’t be surprised to find that gut microbial imbalance could have other implications.
FollowingTheDao 2y ago
I disagree with the title. The vagus nerve is just the telephone line of the mind-body connection. The release of Catecholamines[1] and Purines[2] orchestrates the mind-body connection connection, like people talking on opposite ends of the telephone. "It is possible to stimulate the nerve fibers with a mild electrical pulse by surgically inserting electrodes into the chest or, more simply, clipping them to an earlobe." The electric pulse stimulates the release of catecholamines and purines which initiate and heighten nerve signals along the pathway, The "simple" way they describe the vagus nerve leads to an inhibition of creative thinking in the field of psychiatry and health. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10843545/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10843545/ [2] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-79090-7_10 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-79090-7_...
TacticalCoder 2y ago
A vasovagal syncope is something. It can happen when pain is too strong and you... Simply pass out. It happened to me once, ten years ago (probably due to a severe kidney stones incident but we never found out) and I passed out, on the ground, in front of my girlfriend. My layman understanding is this: pain is too strong, the mind-body decides to simply turn the mind off. Weirdly enough about one minute late I began to "think" again: laying on the floor and... Pain was gone. That was a decade ago so... Whatever!
ck2 2y ago
The US NIH is funding to not only map the human vagus nervous system in high resolution but also create treatments via the multi-million NeuroMod Prize * https://sparc.science/ https://sparc.science/ * https://commonfund.nih.gov/sparc https://commonfund.nih.gov/sparc * https://www.neuromodprize.com/about-the-neuromod-prize/ https://www.neuromodprize.com/about-the-neuromod-prize/

379 points by jandrewrogers 2y ago

I was looking for research papers for the 9 non invasive vagus stimulators I get ads for on instagram. Anyone have success with these for anxiety/depression

hi41 2y ago
Art Of Living’s course 1 Sudarshan Kriya offers breathing course which activates the vagus nerve. I have attended this course. It claims to reduce anxiety, depression and addiction. I have not practiced it regularly. Sorry to say that. Here is that article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573542/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573542/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Living_Foundation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_of_Living_Foundation I hope this helps. I wish you good luck on your journey to good mental health.
salad-tycoon 2y ago
Just caution, don’t turn it up to much and don’t overdo it. More is not better. A style of it can be had cheaply with a TENS 7000 and ear clip set off of Amazon. You will find research and anecdotes to support your decision either way. That’s a truism that’s always been true but perhaps especially in this day and age of overstimulated people and an endless amount of content generators. Ultimately if you think it’s working then it’s working. A lower risk way is probably breathing techniques and meditation apps.
sys64739 2y ago
I'm using a Dolphin Neurostim VNS to recover from COVID-induced anxiety. I'm getting better over time, especially my sleep, so maybe it's working? I had really bad depression for a while too, and that's mostly cleared up. It's not cheap but it's an FDA approved therapy for a number of conditions. It sends microcurrent (literally - millionths of an amp) through the two halves of the vagus nerve via the left tragus to the left wrist, and from the right concha to the belly. Each half takes about fifteen minutes. When I started using it I had some weird moments where my heart would skip a beat, but I ramped up the treatment durations over a couple weeks and now the treatments are uneventful. Supposedly it's much safer than TENS units which deal with currents that can overload your nervous system. BTW, look into Silexan lavender oil too ("Calm Aid"). Supposedly better therapeutic outcomes than prescription antidepressants and anxiolytics, especially at 160mg doses.

Nav_Panel 2y ago

I really wish these articles cited more primary sources. I would love (and prefer) to review the empirical work that led to the communicated understanding of these systems.

jimiray 2y ago
Look up Polyvagal Theory by Stephen Porgess. https://www.stephenporges.com/ https://www.stephenporges.com/
- throaway827 2y ago
  but is the polyvagal theory backed up by concrete scientific evidence? i’ve heard tons about it but practitioners never seem to have real statistics about it all. i thought that the polyvagal theory has never been actually proven?
  - bolangi 2y ago
    Porges started with studying the difference in the length of successive heartbeats, and the nerve systems that control this variability. He accumulated lots of data, and published his findings. He looks at the function of the different branches of the vagus nerve before he eventually connects the state of the vagus nerve with the functioning of the social engagement mechanism--the system that enables us to recognize faces and read their emotional signals. He also connects the vagus nerve with fight-or-flight survival mode of the organism, vs. the rest-and-recuperate mode where resources are made available for healing. It is well-founded, plausible, has good explanatory power for how (to give one example) family visits to a hospitalized family member contribute so greatly to their recovery.
- GavinMcG 2y ago
  Isn’t that what the article specifically says lacks scientific support? Thus why the comment is hoping for primary sources.
- mkl 2y ago
  From the article: > However, some people have taken the vagus nerve’s expansive bodily influence as an invitation to engage in pseudoscience. In some corners of the internet, so-called polyvagal therapy — physical or breathing exercises that some claim reset the vagus nerve — is proposed to address(opens a new tab) just about any disorder of the mind or body. There’s little to no evidence that these popular remedies are anything but placebos.

ProllyInfamous 2y ago

I have extracted this (and other) nerves from cadavers, and this circuitous cranial nerve (XII?) is as beautiful and complex as the multibranch plexus-es (e.g. brachial). So delicate. Human anatomy, at first glance, often seems wrongly-engineered. After you've worked inside dozens of people, you begin to realize that everybody is unique — and nobody is "textbook" anatomy. Who knows what all this goop even does?! If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend this humbling human experience. My hope is that my own cadaver is ripped apart by somebody as crazy/appreciative as me =D

nojs 2y ago
How does one get this chance?
- stephenitis 2y ago
  I watched a fullautopsy in a theater high school at the Walter Reed National Military, followed by an open heart surgery. I'm sure there are videos of this. Beware it's a lot they pick apart the human body.
  - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
    >it's a lot they pick apart the human body. The chest opener is one of the scarier physical tools within surgery... "ca-RACK-k-k-k-KK"
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  Multiple options, including: attend medical school; become employed by an anatomy farm. As for "chance of being hacked apart," anybody can donate their cadaver to science — most facilities require prior enrollment and will recover the corpse, nationwide. You might end up sold into scientific experimentation... if you're morbidly obese (e.g.) you won't be used for student anatomy (if you care).
  - salad-tycoon 2y ago

loceng 2y ago

My vagus nerves were constantly being compressed until roughly 4 months ago, when I had bilateral Eagle's syndrome surgeries - Eagle's syndrome a hardening, calcification-ossification of ligaments that connect from the styloid process and wrap around the neck connecting to front of throat; I had played American football for all of high school and most likely the cause from reptitive injuries/trauma to the tissues. Well, this understanding, if true, could help explain why the severe-debilitating pain level I've had would very easily cause me to get completely lost in the pain - where I couldn't get my mind going, couldn't focus past the pain, would be lost and fully distracted by the pain if I didn't 1) keep my activity level as low as possible (even slight movement of my neck would strongly worsen the symptoms of Eagle's syndrome, particular to the right - a commonly described symptom that one side is much worse), and 2) if I had had any inflammatory foods during the prior 2-3 days or 5 days if dairy. Now my struggle is, now that my nervous system isn't so interfered with with my vagus nerves' signaling no longer being interfered with - my nervous system is working far stronger now, so I feel the remaining few areas of pain far more strongly - and along with that emotionally the experience is far harder as well, far more aggravating; and I arguably no longer get as easily lost in the pain anymore, but now that I am more often connected to my mind, the remaining more strongly experienced pain is more constantly disruptive - whereby the disconnect otherwise was arguably a sort of coping mechanism; being lost in pain is not fun, but at least then routine could act as a functonal crutch. The biggest problem now though is it is even more difficult to get my mind focused on a specific task that I need to get done, having had severe executive dysfunction that had slowly been improving over the years as I played whack-a-mole to knock out the next strongest sources of pain - but now trying to organize and get together what's needed to book next diagnostics for next likely needed treatments to get last 2-3 major-excruciating remaining pain sources has been so difficult now, the uphill battle has turned into a steep cliff; the biggest problem is I am in Canada, Ontario specifically, and the knowledge and competency-critical thinking here is absolutely abysmal - where I've had to spend likely now over $800,000 for medical treatments in the US over the last ~8 years, and now struggling to find competent dentists - made worse by a dentist 1+ year ago - lastly being bounced around I think to 5 different dentists now the past 3 months. My story is more complex than this however. My issues with pain only started after "successful" LASIK eye surgery ~12 years ago caused my nervous system to get overwhelmed - causing central sensitization - was the tipping point or the "final straw that broke the camel's back." Prior to LASIK my mind could handle suppressing whatever underlying pain the injuries and nerve compressions I had; so there is definitely a factor of compounding and arguably amplification (along with hyperalgesia, a hyperesensitivity to pain) between different the eyes and the rest of the body-brain. I'm at my wit's end, and as pain has localized, unmasking the remaining pain sources more strongly, it appears there's a possibility while LASIK may have been the impetus - it may have been the teeth damage-specific teeth pain but overall bite occlusion causing severe sensitization via disruption of my reflexes-autonomous nervous system, essentially TMJ-TMD but only problems runaway guarding-muscle spasming that's compressing nerves - and then perhaps TMJ-TMD guarding compounding with the Eagle's syndromes; and then perhaps also with the corneal damage that happens in 100% of LASIK surgeries, of which there is nothing more I can try to reduce that as a source of pain.

xyst 2y ago

Human body is very flawed. Damage to this nerve can result in systemic failure. When are we going to get an update? Evolution, pls fix!1

moffkalast 2y ago
Maybe we can replace it with a CAN bus. Or PCI express. https://xkcd.com/644 https://xkcd.com/644
- jona-f 2y ago
  Elon Muskollini is working on it. Imagine a subscription service 1000€ for another month to live. Living as a Service. The shareholders are ecstatic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuralink
conradev 2y ago
My favorite bugs are the ones that are too low priority to fix, like this one: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photic_sneeze_reflex The exact pathophysiology is still unknown but it’s a variation on “the nose nerves and the optic nerve are too close together”
- chucksmash 2y ago
  The joy of explaining your sneezes every time you see a bright light during cold/flu/pandemic season. I'm surprised to see it affects 20+% of the population because I've never met anyone who knew what I was talking about when I said "sorry, light makes me sneeze"
  - bl0b 2y ago
    Ha! I have it too. Doesn't feel like 20% but we're out here
    - ProllyInfamous 2y ago

ilrwbwrkhv 2y ago

Has anybody tried vagus nerve stimulation? I tried it but didn't get anywhere much.

nprateem 2y ago
Some kinds of meditation stimulate it. I've tried those. Where did you hope to get?
- amelius 2y ago
  Not GP, but there is https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201907/vagus-nerve-stimulation-via-the-outer-ear-takes-center-stage https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-athletes-way/201... Not sure if this is a good idea though.
albastru 2y ago
There is this technique: https://therapyinanutshell.com/vagus-nerve-exercise/ https://therapyinanutshell.com/vagus-nerve-exercise/ that seems to stimulate the vagus nerve.
rkou 2y ago
Place your hands on the back of your head, with the fingers interlocked, and the thumbs pointing down gently pressing/rubbing on your neck. Slowly move your eyes to any fixed direction (say, to the right) and keep your eyes open, staring to the right. This will initiate a yawn or deep sigh in most people, stimulating vagus nerve.
- kvgr 2y ago
  What kind of sorcery, i tried this and yawned within second.
- wincy 2y ago
  Interesting, another poster called it sorcery but I tried it three times and nothing happened.

fsckboy 2y ago

>The vagus nerve orchestrates the mind-body connection if it does, then the vagus nerve orchestrates the brain-body connection. the mind-body problem, or if you prefer the mind-brain problem, remains unsolved. and apparently, mind-brain confusion persists as well.

dwaltrip 2y ago
Mind-body is the term that’s used in this context.
nis0s 2y ago
Part of the problem is the idea of mind-body duality. Your body is your mind, but a physiological reaction relayed from a nerve is only part of the equation that’s you.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  >Your body is your mind, but a physiological reaction relayed from a nerve is only part of the equation that’s you. you are presenting an untestable-and-only-descriptive-hypothesis as a theory. if we assume that what we know about it today is all there is, then yes, it must be your way. But why assume that what we know is all there is, that assumption has always turned out wrong for thousands of years? Better to say "we don't know what the nature of the mind is or where it comes from beyond the clear evidence that it's tied to the brain."
  - lariattra 2y ago
    The problem is 400 years ago people would have said exactly this about the soul. It seems very possible the mind is just a superstitious artifact but this idea persist in various forms because to let go of it truly means the lights go out at death. We seem incredibly good at telling ourselves stories to deny that reality.
    - BoxOfRain 2y ago
      There's no 'I think therefore I am' equivalent for the notion of a soul as there is for the notion of a mind though, it's easy to say there's no such thing as a soul for lack of evidence but I don't think you can relegate the mind to same category as trivially. If the mind is a mere illusion then what is the nature of the thing being deceived by that illusion for example? I don't think it's necessary a fear of death which makes theories that eliminate the mind unappealing to many either, personally I find the idea of oblivion a lot less unsettling than many of the proposed afterlifes!

howmayiannoyyou 2y ago

After almost everything else failed I tried VNS for Restless Leg Syndrome. Didn't work either. Really had high hopes for it.

midgetjones 2y ago
Have you tried magnesium? I've found the oil spray applied to the soles of the feet effective.

ionwake 2y ago

Story of a friend . Working 7 day weeks , big deadline. Poop. Faint. wtf? Job ends. Years later never happens again. Working 7 days a week makes your vagus nerve sensitive and under stress can shut you down as a defence mechanism. Never knew this, have always advised friends to be very careful when under stress for long periods of time.

poszlem 2y ago

Just a random "vagus nerve story". A while back, I started having weird heart flutters that turned out to be extra heartbeats (doctors call them PVCs and PACs). Sometimes I'd be fine for days or even weeks, but then they'd come back pretty bad. After a bit, I noticed these flutters were linked to what I ate, which seemed really strange. I couldn't figure out how my food could make my heart skip beats. I saw a bunch of heart doctors for almost a year before I found one who knew what was up. He told me I had something called "gastrocardiac syndrome." Apparently, not many heart doctors know about it. It's basically when acid reflux in your stomach messes with the vagus nerve. The doctor gave me some medicine to stop the acid (PPIs), and just like that, my weird heartbeats went away completely.

BaculumMeumEst 2y ago
This has to be super common. My wife and I both are acutely aware of acid reflux causing flutters and other weirdness. During her pregnancy it got worse, and after a full cardiac workup her doctor's best guess was interaction w/ the vagus nerve.
simple10 2y ago
I've also had a couple brushes with vagus nerve stimulation. While in a specialized chiropractor's office undergoing traction to correct an old neck injury, I passed out. Apparently this is quite common, especially when blood sugar is low. The vagus nerve does all sorts of weird stuff, including acting like an off switch.

pedalpete 2y ago

Though we have an understanding of what the Vagus nerve does, and I think this article misses that it is involved in both calming and stimulating the para-sympathic nervous system (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but the challenge with any of the "therapies" that apparently stimulate the vagus never is that we can't measure the vagus never directly, and are therefore making assumptions that this is the pathway these therapies are taking. I had built a "vagus nerve stimulation app" a while back which used vibration to enhance calm. I did some measurements comparing this vibrating stimulation to neurofeedback with a Muse device, and the results seemed positive, but because we couldn't say specifically which mechanism was being triggered, and that it wasn't more than just "listening to calm music", we didn't pursue it.

reallyeli 2y ago

[flagged]

xpe 2y ago
This struck a nerve with me as well.
- spacebacon 2y ago
  The nerve of this guy.
  - xpe 2y ago
    I'm sorry, was someone axon for your opinion?
    - spacebacon 2y ago
      Guess it's time to synapse a new pun into the mix.

simple10 2y ago

For anecdotal data, I'm a big fan of Apollo Neuro. It's a small band worn on the wrist or ankle and vibrates to stimulate the vagus nerve. Similar effect to tapping on your wrist. The sleep mode seems to improve my deep sleep scores on my Oura ring. I haven't done any proper data analysis to confirm. Apollo Neuro claims to have lab data proving efficacy: https://apolloneuro.com/pages/science https://apolloneuro.com/pages/science Even if it's more of a placebo effect, I still enjoy the benefits of devices like this.

Handprint4469 2y ago
Interesting! This is the second time I see a strong recommendation for that product (first one was [0]). Seems pretty expensive ($300) for a vibrating bracelet. Couldn't you emulate the effect with an Android smart watch and a custom app? [0] https://acesounderglass.com/2023/05/08/product-endorsement-apollo-neuro/ https://acesounderglass.com/2023/05/08/product-endorsement-a...
mkl 2y ago
The vagus nerve doesn't go anywhere near your wrists or ankles, and that science page doesn't mention the vagus nerve at all.
- simple10 2y ago
  Correct, the vagus nerve itself doesn't extend into wrists and legs AFAIK, but other nerves connect to it. Wrist tapping and acupuncture stimulation of points on the wrists are quite common. I'm assuming devices like Apollo Neuro target a similar effect on those pressure points on wrist and ankles. Here's a random article about vagus nerve and acupuncture [1]. I'm not sure about actual pubmed type studies. On a personal level, I think these devices are well worth giving a try. Just pick one with a good return policy if it doesn't work for you. [1] https://www.morningsideacupuncturenyc.com/blog/acupuncture-and-the-vagus-nerve#:~:text=Pericardium%206%20(PC%206)%20%2D,system%20and%20increase%20vagal%20activity https://www.morningsideacupuncturenyc.com/blog/acupuncture-a....

xpe 2y ago

I’m curious about other organisms that have a split between the vagus and the spinal cord. What explanations might helps us understand why evolution went in that direction? What is our most distant ancestor that does not have the split?

swayvil 2y ago

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bentt 2y ago

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jimiray 2y ago

Polyvagal Theory is a huge part of how I teach yoga to veterans. There’s a great book by Dr Arielle Schwartz - Applied Polyvagal Theory in Yoga. It does work, it can’t cure PTS(D) but it does provide relief if only for an hours r of class.

optymizer 2y ago
From the article: > However, some people have taken the vagus nerve’s expansive bodily influence as an invitation to engage in pseudoscience. In some corners of the internet, so-called polyvagal therapy — physical or breathing exercises that some claim reset the vagus nerve — is proposed to address(opens a new tab) just about any disorder of the mind or body. There’s little to no evidence that these popular remedies are anything but placebos.

nis0s 2y ago

Physiological responses, the kind relayed from major body organs to the brain via the vagus nerve, are not necessarily your “mind” in the sense that they contribute towards your conscious actions or self-directed goals. But yeah, they send signals which can be interpreted one way vs. another depending on if you’re being mindful. Arousal is especially interesting because you can compress a nerve in the right way and experience something you don’t actually feel or want to feel. Feelings, however, are not the “mind”, i.e. the self-directed, persistent and conscious entity. I think it’s important to say this because people often fall into the trap of thinking physiological responses are indicative of consciousness. Another cool thing about the vagus nerve is what happens when people get vagotomy (from Wikipedia) > Researchers from Aarhus University and Aarhus University Hospital have demonstrated that vagotomy prevents (halves the risk of) the development of Parkinson's disease, suggesting that Parkinson's disease begins in the gastrointestinal tract and spreads via the vagus nerve to the brain.[24] Or giving further evidence to the theory that dysregulated environmental stimuli, such as that received by the vagus nerve from the gut, may have a negative effect on the dopamine reward system of the substantia nigra, thereby causing Parkinson's disease

fredgrott 2y ago
its even more complicated than that... -Parkinson's has lower amount of GI lining -Parkinson's is a severe lowering of dopamine...how severe...patients take 1800mg dopamine daily.... Almost kissing cousin to ADHD....
teuobk 2y ago
Unfortunately, that link between vagotomy and reduced risk of PD hasn't been supported by subsequent studies. In fact, it wasn't really even supported by the initial study[1]: although the point estimates of the hazard ratios were below 1.0, the confidence intervals did not exclude 1.0 -- or stated differently, at p<0.05, the null hypothesis cannot be rejected. [1] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.24448 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ana.24448
- nis0s 2y ago
  Cool, interesting! Though I wouldn’t be surprised if there are such links, even if this one is not supported by further research. We know that gingivitis can lead to heart disease, so I wouldn’t be surprised to find that gut microbial imbalance could have other implications.

FollowingTheDao 2y ago

I disagree with the title. The vagus nerve is just the telephone line of the mind-body connection. The release of Catecholamines[1] and Purines[2] orchestrates the mind-body connection connection, like people talking on opposite ends of the telephone. "It is possible to stimulate the nerve fibers with a mild electrical pulse by surgically inserting electrodes into the chest or, more simply, clipping them to an earlobe." The electric pulse stimulates the release of catecholamines and purines which initiate and heighten nerve signals along the pathway, The "simple" way they describe the vagus nerve leads to an inhibition of creative thinking in the field of psychiatry and health. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10843545/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10843545/ [2] https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-79090-7_10 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-79090-7_...

TacticalCoder 2y ago

A vasovagal syncope is something. It can happen when pain is too strong and you... Simply pass out. It happened to me once, ten years ago (probably due to a severe kidney stones incident but we never found out) and I passed out, on the ground, in front of my girlfriend. My layman understanding is this: pain is too strong, the mind-body decides to simply turn the mind off. Weirdly enough about one minute late I began to "think" again: laying on the floor and... Pain was gone. That was a decade ago so... Whatever!

ck2 2y ago

The US NIH is funding to not only map the human vagus nervous system in high resolution but also create treatments via the multi-million NeuroMod Prize * https://sparc.science/ https://sparc.science/ * https://commonfund.nih.gov/sparc https://commonfund.nih.gov/sparc * https://www.neuromodprize.com/about-the-neuromod-prize/ https://www.neuromodprize.com/about-the-neuromod-prize/