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Tesla drivers say new FSD update is repeatedly running red lights
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- caycep 2y agois this a technical or cultural feature?
- srjek 2y agoBoth. It's a technical failure that the system is running red lights, and a cultural failure for it to be pushed out to production.
- LeifCarrotson 2y agoInteresting to consider it might be cultural. If Tesla is using training data from their other cars, maybe this is something the car has just figured out that human drivers do? They already allow the cruise control's automatic speed limit adjustment to have an offset applied, so that everywhere you go you're speeding by 10% or 15% over the legal limit. On the low-speed roads mentioned in the article, people ignore unoccupied stop signs and red lights all the time. It was literally 6 days ago that I was biking home from work, stopped at a stop sign (I know some cyclists campaign for Idaho Stops, but they're not legal in my state yet and I'm out there as much for advocacy as I am for anything else), when someone blew through the 35mph 4-way stop without even putting their phone down. There were no cars, just me on my bike, so I guess she felt she didn't have to stop?
- Veserv 2y agoStill ignoring school bus stop signs as well. https://x.com/bradsferguson/status/1828031824158683439 https://x.com/bradsferguson/status/1828031824158683439 As it has been for literal years and has resulted in at a minimum one recorded instance of literally and knowingly running down at least one child exiting a school bus: https://x.com/tesla2moon/status/1770599114494898310 https://x.com/tesla2moon/status/1770599114494898310 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSZbWIrzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZiSZbWIrzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly6Juveo-7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly6Juveo-7Y Reported by Tesla confirming ADAS usage as incident 13781-5100 in the NHTSA SGO database [1]. https://www.wnct.com/on-your-side/crime-tracker/tesla-driver-charged-with-hitting-halifax-county-student-who-exited-school-bus-troopers-say/ https://www.wnct.com/on-your-side/crime-tracker/tesla-driver... [1] https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_Incident_Reports_ADAS.csv https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/ffdd/sgo-2021-01/SGO-2021-01_In...
- bboygravity 2y agoAccidents are not good, but how does FSD safety compare to human drivers in general? Human drivers run over and kill school children too, so which is actually worse statistically? Human or FSD? I'll side with the FSD / Elon haters if FSD is significantly worse. Until then I ask questions and remain neutral.
- llamaimperative 2y agoTesla's decision not to release the data required to make such an assessment might be considered some sort of indication about what that data says
- taylodl 2y agoIt's indicative of dishonesty and fraud.
- rootusrootus 2y agoI've tried FSD enough that I can say with perfect confidence that it is orders of magnitude less safe than an average human. Even a drunk one. Every few miles of driving it would do something that would most likely be a fender bender at minimum. That's pretty risky. Compare to human drivers, which average roughly 1 fatality for every 100,000,000 miles driven. And that's including drunk drivers. My guess is FSD in the current state would probably average 1 fatality for every 100 miles or so, if you were not closely supervising it. Assuming none of the wrecks along the way disabled the car.
- bboygravity 2y agoWhat version of FSD? In what year?
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago> Accidents are not good, but how does FSD safety compare to human drivers in general? We'll never really know and tech companies aren't trustworthy. A new software update will invalidate what we've observed about the last version and we'll be back to knowing nothing. Humans in aggregate are predictable and nothing will make that entire fleet more dangerous overnight. Legacy car companies came about in an era when they faced accountability from both consumers and lawmakers that we can no longer count on.
- sova 2y ago...running them safely tho?
- jrflowers 2y agoNo
- sova 2y agoWhat do you mean "No" ? I am asking if it's traversing red lights while they are otherwise safe to traverse (no lateral traffic). What's with this amazing pessimism infecting this forum lately.
- CalRobert 2y agoSo you have no lateral traffic and run over the person walking across the street?
- teqsun 2y agoIs FSD running red lights with no lateral traffic and running people walking across the street over?
- p51-remorse 2y agoUsually HN engineers are able to compartmentalize and correctly answer questions like this, but it’s a lost cause with Tesla for some reason. They’re unable to separate “it did a dangerous thing, but did not cause harm” in their minds. Yes, it has problems. Yes, it has regressions. Yes, sometimes it does dangerous things. But it drove me 400 miles, door to door, last week and did fine. There’s clearly something historic happening here, but all HN can talk about is flaws. If someone developed a warp drive, and 25% of the time it turned the operator into jelly, we wouldn’t sit here talking exclusively about jelly. We’d talk about how warp drive is cool and what the path to fixing stuff is. It’s really bizarre.
- Sohcahtoa82 2y agoAnybody buying FSD is a fool, and you know what they say about fools and their money. It blows my mind that some consumers would spend $8K on a feature without doing the 5 minutes of research it would take to determine that FSD isn't here, and won't be here for years. I own a Tesla, and I chose not to buy FSD because in 2019 when I bought it, it simply didn't work based on what I had read. Earlier this year, when Tesla gave a trial to all Tesla owners, I tried it out and was surprised at how good it was, but it still make bad mistakes, one time even curbing the rear wheel while navigating a curve to the right [0], despite it knowing exactly where the curb was. The problem is that you still have to babysit it. And if you have the babysit a self-driving feature, then it's entirely useless. It becomes nothing more than a party trick to show off to friends about how neat it is. Autopilot is great. Love it, especially on road trips. But until FSD is good enough to drive my drunk ass home from a party and even park in my driveway, I'm staying away (and staying sober!). [0] Here's the curb it hit: https://maps.app.goo.gl/BLeqSywhXHRyf7a39 https://maps.app.goo.gl/BLeqSywhXHRyf7a39. With how wide that lane is, there's no reason it should have cut it so close that it hit the curb. There wasn't even anybody next to me.
- ascorbic 2y agoYou chose wisely. I got FSD in 2019 and it was frankly terrifying.
- jm4 2y agoI am so bitter about my FSD purchase in 2019. At the time, there were some enhanced autopilot features and the rest was promised by the end of the year. I occasionally try it out and it's so bad. It feels completely unsafe. FSD has left such a bad taste that I almost never use even basic autopilot. I feel like I was conned out of $6000. I will never buy another Tesla as long as fraudster Elon is at the helm.
- baggachipz 2y agoI got mine for only $2000 and I feel conned. Nonstop empty promises, suddenly removed from the site as the date comes and goes. e.g., "Your car will be able to drop you off, park, and come get you by the end of the year. Really." That was two years ago at least.
- xnx 2y agoMeanwhile, Waymo can sensibly move through a street with crowds of people walking around: https://x.com/TechTekedra/status/1828816255404687773 https://x.com/TechTekedra/status/1828816255404687773
- ripjaygn 2y agoMeanwhile Waymo just yesterday went the wrong way on the street. https://abc7.com/post/wrong-waymo-driverless-car-goes-oncoming-traffic-tempe-arizona/15238556/ https://abc7.com/post/wrong-waymo-driverless-car-goes-oncomi... Waymo hits stationary pole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAZP-RNSr0s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAZP-RNSr0s If Waymo is as good as you claim, then why don't they release data on the number of manual interventions> It's just the Waymo's missteps are unlikely to show up on HN unlike Tesla's. FSD can navigate crowds too.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Waymo goes the wrong way on the street I'm familiar with that intersection in Tempe. There is a bar for beating the average human driver on it, and going to wrong way is sadly not above it. I'm also not aware of any fatalities resulting from a Waymo accident. (Waymo also doesn't seem to be deluded about its system's safety. That's why they have human drivers on standby, remote and in person.)
- xnx 2y agoI would not be surprised if the Waymo was left "stranded" in the intersection due to red light runners.
- ripjaygn 2y agoIf Waymo is as good as you claim why don't they release data on the number of manual interventions? They didn't even release the video when a Waymo hit a bike while turning left at an intersection a few months ago.
- deleted 2y ago
- f0under 2y agoCurious who gets a ticket when FSD runs a red light?
- paxys 2y agoThe driver, as it should be
- jcranmer 2y agoThe driver is responsible for maintaining control of the car at all times, so they will get the ticket even if they're using FSD. There is an argument that Tesla is releasing products that are fundamentally unsafe, and they may be open to some torts there. Of course, Tesla itself would likely point to some language in some agreement that basically amounts to "you're an absolute fool for thinking that our FSD product is any good, and have no ability to sue us for releasing dangerous products;" they've historically been very aggressive in arguing that they bear no responsibility in any FSD or Autopilot crashes.
- thebruce87m 2y agoCurious to hear what you think the other options are apart from the driver.
- Spivak 2y agoThe auto manufacturer, as they're the entity actually operating the vehicle. You can absolve yourself of responsibility with enough legalese "self-driving doesn't work, it will kill your kitten, you're responsible when you plow though a Denny's" but it doesn't make it right. Mercedes is taking liability, it's possible. You have no control over how your car's self-driving operates, you can take over control but that doesn't mean you're driving. You're the passenger in one of those student-driver cars, you might have your own steering wheel and brake but it doesn't make you the driver. The life-guard isn't the swimmer.
- llamaimperative 2y agoMercedes is confident in their system, that's the difference
- gourneau 2y agoWith v12.5.1.1 My Tesla ran into a curb, I had to get 2 wheels and tires replaced https://twitter.com/gourneau/status/1821005220190798038 https://twitter.com/gourneau/status/1821005220190798038
- CharlieDigital 2y agoWho paid for this in your case?
- lacker 2y agoYikes. I don't want to use this product myself. Still, it's worrisome to judge based on anecdotes. I'd really like to see some sort of overall statistics that compare Tesla FSD to other cars. Tesla claims their FSD system, overall, saves lives. Does it? The Waymo statistics, I find pretty convincing that Waymo is safer than human-driven taxis. There are still bad Waymo anecdotes, and they should continue to improve, but overall it seems like a good thing for safety. Tesla FSD, I just don't know.
- rurp 2y agoThe fact that Tesla will only release limited cherry picked stastics tells us a lot. If FSD were actually as safe as Elon wants us to believe he would release the data to prove it. Until then we should not assume that the system is any safer than the anecdotes of crazy failures imply.
- greenthrow 2y agoFSD is surprisingly good when it does work. But the problem, as I have said on this very web site for more than a decade, is that the failure mode is unacceptable. You have to button up all the nigh unto infinite edge cases to truly be fully autonomous.
- throw0101d 2y agoIs SAE Level 2 perhaps 'good enough' for most people, especially on highways (either flowing or stop-and-go), for now? Comma's 3X seems to be something that increases driving convenience for people, but doesn't over-promise / under-deliver on its capabilities. Should Level 2 be what manufacturers be shooting for when they're shipping their 2024/5 models? (Though certainly strive for higher levels in the future.)
- rsynnott 2y ago'FSD' is L2, not L3.
- throw0101d 2y ago> 'FSD' is L2, not L3. The reality of FSD may be L2, but is it being marketed as L2, or something more?
- fsdexperthn 2y ago[flagged]
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- P_I_Staker 2y agoI love all the Tesla critics running to this form their complainy thought in hands. We all run red lights, repeatedly, we all run red lights. I've been saying for years Tesla FSD, better than racecar experts.
- spiderxxxx 2y ago"FSD" is not running red lights, the so-called "driver" is. Ultimately you are responsible for what your car does, when you are in the driver's seat. If you allow it to run red lights, it's on you.
- rurp 2y agoWhat does FSD stand for again? If Tesla wants to sell Fancy Unpredictable Cruise Control they should label and market it as such. It is insane how many dangerous lies Elon gets away with. Anyone else without so much wealth and power would have faced serious consequences by now.
- snapplebobapple 2y agoIt's because it's trained on real tesla drivers.....
- nibs2 2y ago[flagged]