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Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investm

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. Especially with Musk's particular choice of which politics he wants to push, which alienate not only customers but also the government political forces. Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. If Tesla had been run by a different CEO for the past, say, 3 years, nearly any CEO, I think it would be in a better position. I really like my Model 3, but I won't be buying it again, and the direction of the Cyber Truck is so repulsive to me that I'm really really against being associated with the brand at all.

root_axis 2y ago
> Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  The political party that ignored Tesla’s accomplishments because of union politics?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - epistasis 2y ago
    The further subsidies were not "ignoring achievement" they were subsidies that were shifting to include union labor. The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. If one or two Republicans like the idea of EV subsidies without union labor, their votes could have shifted everything. But of course, there was universal condemnation of these polices by all Republicans.
    - tim333 2y ago
      >The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. At the time of Biden's electic car summit in 2021 to which Tesla was not invited, Telsa had 75% of the EV market in the US. The idea that US's EV policy didn't have anything to do with its largest EV company is perhaps surprising.
- jcranmer 2y ago
  > a consequence of Elon's strong support. What strong support? I recall that Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund, and then he announced like two days later that he wasn't going to do it.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jfengel 2y ago
      He's extremely constrained in what he can donate directly to the campaign. Direct donations are limited to something like $4000. These donations are closely monitored. If you want to spend millions you have to give it to a super PAC. The difference is that the super PAC cannot coordinate directly with the campaign. That part is not super closely monitored, and the fig leaf of separation is nanometers thick.
  - fastball 2y ago
    Musk never announced that.
  - yreg 2y ago
    > Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund I don't think he has publicly announced anything like that. Actually, he denied it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/elon-musk-donald-trump-donations-denial-super-pac-america https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/e...
    - dylan604 2y ago
      With the two parties involved in the will he/won't he, I wouldn't doubt either version of the story. It's beautiful
  - somethoughts 2y ago
    The fun part is, as far as I understand it, the EV tax credit as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, did eventually include Teslas - even though Elon wasn't invited to the initial photo-op announcement party thrown by the White House due to the lack of unionization at Tesla factories. On the flip side, support for the EV tax credit will probably be phased out if Trump wins according to recent articles I've read. So then it seems it's not necessarily business logic but more about personal ego, etc.
- nikcub 2y ago
  Doubt either next administration will do better for Tesla than Biden's up to $7500 EV tax credit and 100% import duty on Chinese EVs
  - hedora 2y ago
    Biden really should have made the import duty contingent on the US manufacturers not abandoning / slow-walking their EV lineups: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-three-row-electric-suv/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-thr... At this point, it feels more like a ban on affordable mainstream EVs than an anti-price-dumping measure.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago
  > Trump has said openly that he will support EVs Source? Recent news says otherwise. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-consider-ending-7500-electric-vehicle-credit-2024-08-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-conside...
  - peutetre 2y ago
    Trump says he's for electric cars because "I have to be, you know, because Elon endorsed me very strongly, Elon. So I have no choice": https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endorsement-inspired-trumps-sudden-flip-flop-on-evs https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endor... What Trump is really saying is that he's for sale. Trump also told the oil industry he's for sale. He said they should give him $1 billion and that would be a "deal" because he would help them avoid taxation and regulation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil... Everything is transactional with Trump. He's only interested if it benefits him personally. He only cares about himself.
    - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
      > Joe Biden Rewards Donors With Admin Positions in Broken Promise to Voters https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-positions-broken-promise-voters-1803442 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-posi... https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campaign-billionaires-megadonors-6cf28b0c https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campa... I feel that what Trump says out loud publicly others say behind the cameras away from mics with a wink and a nudge. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donors-hope-she-will-fire-ftc-chair-lina-khan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donor...
      - cheikhcheikh 2y ago
        You asked for a source and were given one, then went on to talk about joe Biden for some reason, may I ask why?
- moogly 2y ago
  > Trump has said His word is worth nothing.
okr 2y ago
Was it not the mission of Tesla to make electrical cars an alternative to cars running on petrol? To me this was achieved. Bmw or Tesla, i do not care about that too much. But we have an alternative. Great! And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not?
- Swizec 2y ago
  > And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not? 50% is a big chunk of your target market to piss off
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  > But that's normal in politics, is it not? Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Some people are motivated enough to lose business for their principles. But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve.
  - AnthonyMouse 2y ago
    > Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Companies do this all the time though. The trade off is, of course, that you get more support from customers the other side. > But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve. This is not an accurate representation. For example, the Twitter acquisition followed a period of Twitter (and most other social media) banning a lot of conservative accounts for publishing truthful reporting (New York Post) or actual satire with the disfavored political leaning (Babylon Bee), at which point Musk did a Twitter poll asking the entire site if Twitter adheres to the principle of free speech: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 70% said it didn't, so he bought it. This upset a lot of people (not least the people who liked the preexisting system that tended to ban their political opponents) and they've been characterizing everything he does in a negative light since. So then you'll get a lot of stories about a left-leaning account being suspended with the implication that he's just doing it the other way now, with no investigation into whether the suspension was deserved, or just characterizing the unavoidable false positives and false negatives in moderation as a willful bias etc. That isn't to say he's a saint, but the impression you'd get from reading a lot of this coverage is that he's the devil.
mrbungie 2y ago
This is just an opinion but Musk, out of some level of autism and/or narcissism, must think those things just don't apply to him. I say that because sometimes the way he acts appears as he thinks he is so smart that he can circumvent typical social/economical/politica etiquette and even evade consequences. Well, it has actually worked for him. The world makes a lot of exceptions about etiquette for him.
- taurath 2y ago
  The world also likes to chew up people they once lionized who end up being deeply flawed. He had business making technology, but he has no business being in politics. He is literally the richest person on the planet, and the way that works is you no longer have any problems that anyone can relate to, and you can afford to not listen to literally anything that makes you uncomfortable. He's gone down a very dark path through his choices - choices that serve him and his ego above all. No wonder the only person he has anything in common with anymore is Donald Trump.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
> There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. I don’t know about this. Virtually all CEOs of tech companies bent over backwards to support BLM and many donated tens of millions to those BLM affiliated organizations - many of whom turned out to be grifters. But if anyone takes a public stance supporting an opposing political ideology, suddenly it is a huge controversy for CEOs to be political? Or take something that liberal societies support like free speech - when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist”? To me the hyperbolic outrage in response to Musk just seems like a dishonest power struggle, where people on the political left are bent on only allowing their voice and influence in society.
- petre 2y ago
  I think people are generally fed up with Musk's tweets, his Tesla marketing and his general lack of empathy. The public might have tolerated him until he got involved in politics and has shown support for Trump.
- jjav 2y ago
  > when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist” There has been nothing minimalist in Musk's moderation, he's been banning people on twitter all along. His whole free speech thing turned out to apply only to speech he likes and ban the rest.
foobazgt 2y ago
I don't really get this. "Love the art, not the artist" is pretty much an essentialism for participating in modern human society. Try taking a moment to trace through everything you consume and see how much of it was originated by very flawed human beings - some monstrously so. This extends in every direction, even all the way out to things like massive scientific discoveries. Nothing's immune, because we're all human. I'm in the process of buying my 3rd Tesla, because I still don't think there's anything better out there (based on my personal needs). I'm not making any political or moral statements. I'm just buying an excellent vehicle.
- tailrecursion 2y ago
  This appears to be downvoted, but why? I'd like to see the counterargument that we need to put each executive, author, director, or artist through a purity test before we can appreciate or purchase their work. How about listing a few pure American car CEOs. Consumers are free to make choices based on anything they want: but whining in public about how some tweets affect your opinion on a car is not the same thing as privately making choices. This subject was opened for discussion and it remains open.
  - doodaddy 2y ago
    Why? Because art and business aren’t the same. “Love the capital, not the capitalist” doesn’t work because unlike artists, capital influences elections. It influences policy and thereby impacts real people’s lives in a real way. Also unlike artists, the head of a company oversees hundreds or thousands of people. Their whims and actions likewise have direct impact on people’s lives.
  - The_Colonel 2y ago
    People don't want to do background checks on companies. But you don't have to do that for Tesla, Musk tries hard to shove his persona in your face.
- kanbara 2y ago
  i looked at tesla but decided against it after elon’s antics. bought a bmw i4 and wow it feels and drives like a premium vehicle. gets out of the way and does things well. drove my fam’s tesla model 3 (2024) and it felt super cheap and the ui and cameras were pretty bad
chii 2y ago
> deciding to become extremely political personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). There's objective measures you compare against another product (like price, looks, performance, quality etc), and you choose the best fit.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  > personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). This is a normal hacker news commenter position, but not a normal consumer position. One of the first things you learn in a freshman year marketing course is the fact that consumers in general make spending decisions on feeling, not on raw data. It's the reason commercials you see on television are all about vibes, and not remotely about the raw performance numbers. See also: Apple never wastes its time droning on about the specs of their devices in their commercials. This is why the public persona of Tesla's CEO has a material impact on the company's sales, and why it's hurting the company. I'd argue that Musk has outright disdain for his customers and considers them 'woke,' and is enthusiastically running the company into the ground out of pure spite.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  It's not really different from the looks you mention. Looks is not an objective measure. You buy a nice looking car because its look evokes positive feelings in you. But other things can evoke positive feelings by association. The brand itself, marketing campaign, corporate image. For many, these (usually carefully cultivated) associations are overshadowed by a loud, controversial, partisan CEO who doesn't evoke positive feelings. It used to be that Tesla cars evoked for me feelings of progress, sort of futurism (although I never really digged its rather bland design), eco-friendliness. Nowadays I see a Tesla and feel a low-key disgust.

root_axis 2y ago

> Tesla has massively benefited from subsidies to EVs, but is alienating the political party that has enabled all of that. Well, he's expecting some reciprocity from the next administration for all his help, and Trump has said openly that he will support EVs as a consequence of Elon's strong support.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
The political party that ignored Tesla’s accomplishments because of union politics?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- epistasis 2y ago
  The further subsidies were not "ignoring achievement" they were subsidies that were shifting to include union labor. The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. If one or two Republicans like the idea of EV subsidies without union labor, their votes could have shifted everything. But of course, there was universal condemnation of these polices by all Republicans.
  - tim333 2y ago
    >The idea that it has anything to do with Tesla, as opposed to anything else, is a bit weird. At the time of Biden's electic car summit in 2021 to which Tesla was not invited, Telsa had 75% of the EV market in the US. The idea that US's EV policy didn't have anything to do with its largest EV company is perhaps surprising.
jcranmer 2y ago
> a consequence of Elon's strong support. What strong support? I recall that Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund, and then he announced like two days later that he wasn't going to do it.
- netsharc 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jfengel 2y ago
    He's extremely constrained in what he can donate directly to the campaign. Direct donations are limited to something like $4000. These donations are closely monitored. If you want to spend millions you have to give it to a super PAC. The difference is that the super PAC cannot coordinate directly with the campaign. That part is not super closely monitored, and the fig leaf of separation is nanometers thick.
- fastball 2y ago
  Musk never announced that.
- yreg 2y ago
  > Elon publicly announced he was going to do a massive contribution to Trump's campaign fund I don't think he has publicly announced anything like that. Actually, he denied it. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/elon-musk-donald-trump-donations-denial-super-pac-america https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jul/24/e...
  - dylan604 2y ago
    With the two parties involved in the will he/won't he, I wouldn't doubt either version of the story. It's beautiful
- somethoughts 2y ago
  The fun part is, as far as I understand it, the EV tax credit as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, did eventually include Teslas - even though Elon wasn't invited to the initial photo-op announcement party thrown by the White House due to the lack of unionization at Tesla factories. On the flip side, support for the EV tax credit will probably be phased out if Trump wins according to recent articles I've read. So then it seems it's not necessarily business logic but more about personal ego, etc.
nikcub 2y ago
Doubt either next administration will do better for Tesla than Biden's up to $7500 EV tax credit and 100% import duty on Chinese EVs
- hedora 2y ago
  Biden really should have made the import duty contingent on the US manufacturers not abandoning / slow-walking their EV lineups: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-three-row-electric-suv/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a61935592/ford-cancels-thr... At this point, it feels more like a ban on affordable mainstream EVs than an anti-price-dumping measure.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
cscurmudgeon 2y ago
> Trump has said openly that he will support EVs Source? Recent news says otherwise. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-consider-ending-7500-electric-vehicle-credit-2024-08-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-says-he-would-conside...
- peutetre 2y ago
  Trump says he's for electric cars because "I have to be, you know, because Elon endorsed me very strongly, Elon. So I have no choice": https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endorsement-inspired-trumps-sudden-flip-flop-on-evs https://www.thestreet.com/electric-vehicles/elon-musks-endor... What Trump is really saying is that he's for sale. Trump also told the oil industry he's for sale. He said they should give him $1 billion and that would be a "deal" because he would help them avoid taxation and regulation: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil-industry-campaign-money/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/05/09/trump-oil... Everything is transactional with Trump. He's only interested if it benefits him personally. He only cares about himself.
  - cscurmudgeon 2y ago
    > Joe Biden Rewards Donors With Admin Positions in Broken Promise to Voters https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-positions-broken-promise-voters-1803442 https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-rewards-donors-admin-posi... https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campaign-billionaires-megadonors-6cf28b0c https://www.barrons.com/articles/trump-harris-election-campa... I feel that what Trump says out loud publicly others say behind the cameras away from mics with a wink and a nudge. https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donors-hope-she-will-fire-ftc-chair-lina-khan.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/26/two-billionaire-harris-donor...
    - cheikhcheikh 2y ago
      You asked for a source and were given one, then went on to talk about joe Biden for some reason, may I ask why?
moogly 2y ago
> Trump has said His word is worth nothing.

okr 2y ago

Was it not the mission of Tesla to make electrical cars an alternative to cars running on petrol? To me this was achieved. Bmw or Tesla, i do not care about that too much. But we have an alternative. Great! And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not?

Swizec 2y ago
> And politics, well, only for people who do not agree with him it is an issue. But that's normal in politics, is it not? 50% is a big chunk of your target market to piss off
marcosdumay 2y ago
> But that's normal in politics, is it not? Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Some people are motivated enough to lose business for their principles. But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
  > Excluding a part of the population for no practical reason at all is bad business. But when the politics becomes extremist, that share becomes huge, and it becomes disastrous business. Companies do this all the time though. The trade off is, of course, that you get more support from customers the other side. > But the guy's principles is "big business is right"... I'm not sure what he wants to achieve. This is not an accurate representation. For example, the Twitter acquisition followed a period of Twitter (and most other social media) banning a lot of conservative accounts for publishing truthful reporting (New York Post) or actual satire with the disfavored political leaning (Babylon Bee), at which point Musk did a Twitter poll asking the entire site if Twitter adheres to the principle of free speech: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1507259709224632344 70% said it didn't, so he bought it. This upset a lot of people (not least the people who liked the preexisting system that tended to ban their political opponents) and they've been characterizing everything he does in a negative light since. So then you'll get a lot of stories about a left-leaning account being suspended with the implication that he's just doing it the other way now, with no investigation into whether the suspension was deserved, or just characterizing the unavoidable false positives and false negatives in moderation as a willful bias etc. That isn't to say he's a saint, but the impression you'd get from reading a lot of this coverage is that he's the devil.

mrbungie 2y ago

This is just an opinion but Musk, out of some level of autism and/or narcissism, must think those things just don't apply to him. I say that because sometimes the way he acts appears as he thinks he is so smart that he can circumvent typical social/economical/politica etiquette and even evade consequences. Well, it has actually worked for him. The world makes a lot of exceptions about etiquette for him.

taurath 2y ago
The world also likes to chew up people they once lionized who end up being deeply flawed. He had business making technology, but he has no business being in politics. He is literally the richest person on the planet, and the way that works is you no longer have any problems that anyone can relate to, and you can afford to not listen to literally anything that makes you uncomfortable. He's gone down a very dark path through his choices - choices that serve him and his ego above all. No wonder the only person he has anything in common with anymore is Donald Trump.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

> There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. I don’t know about this. Virtually all CEOs of tech companies bent over backwards to support BLM and many donated tens of millions to those BLM affiliated organizations - many of whom turned out to be grifters. But if anyone takes a public stance supporting an opposing political ideology, suddenly it is a huge controversy for CEOs to be political? Or take something that liberal societies support like free speech - when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist”? To me the hyperbolic outrage in response to Musk just seems like a dishonest power struggle, where people on the political left are bent on only allowing their voice and influence in society.

petre 2y ago
I think people are generally fed up with Musk's tweets, his Tesla marketing and his general lack of empathy. The public might have tolerated him until he got involved in politics and has shown support for Trump.
jjav 2y ago
> when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist” There has been nothing minimalist in Musk's moderation, he's been banning people on twitter all along. His whole free speech thing turned out to apply only to speech he likes and ban the rest.

foobazgt 2y ago

I don't really get this. "Love the art, not the artist" is pretty much an essentialism for participating in modern human society. Try taking a moment to trace through everything you consume and see how much of it was originated by very flawed human beings - some monstrously so. This extends in every direction, even all the way out to things like massive scientific discoveries. Nothing's immune, because we're all human. I'm in the process of buying my 3rd Tesla, because I still don't think there's anything better out there (based on my personal needs). I'm not making any political or moral statements. I'm just buying an excellent vehicle.

tailrecursion 2y ago
This appears to be downvoted, but why? I'd like to see the counterargument that we need to put each executive, author, director, or artist through a purity test before we can appreciate or purchase their work. How about listing a few pure American car CEOs. Consumers are free to make choices based on anything they want: but whining in public about how some tweets affect your opinion on a car is not the same thing as privately making choices. This subject was opened for discussion and it remains open.
- doodaddy 2y ago
  Why? Because art and business aren’t the same. “Love the capital, not the capitalist” doesn’t work because unlike artists, capital influences elections. It influences policy and thereby impacts real people’s lives in a real way. Also unlike artists, the head of a company oversees hundreds or thousands of people. Their whims and actions likewise have direct impact on people’s lives.
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  People don't want to do background checks on companies. But you don't have to do that for Tesla, Musk tries hard to shove his persona in your face.
kanbara 2y ago
i looked at tesla but decided against it after elon’s antics. bought a bmw i4 and wow it feels and drives like a premium vehicle. gets out of the way and does things well. drove my fam’s tesla model 3 (2024) and it felt super cheap and the ui and cameras were pretty bad

chii 2y ago

> deciding to become extremely political personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). There's objective measures you compare against another product (like price, looks, performance, quality etc), and you choose the best fit.

mullingitover 2y ago
> personally, my purchase decisions do not include the personality or celebrity of the company (CEO or otherwise). This is a normal hacker news commenter position, but not a normal consumer position. One of the first things you learn in a freshman year marketing course is the fact that consumers in general make spending decisions on feeling, not on raw data. It's the reason commercials you see on television are all about vibes, and not remotely about the raw performance numbers. See also: Apple never wastes its time droning on about the specs of their devices in their commercials. This is why the public persona of Tesla's CEO has a material impact on the company's sales, and why it's hurting the company. I'd argue that Musk has outright disdain for his customers and considers them 'woke,' and is enthusiastically running the company into the ground out of pure spite.
The_Colonel 2y ago
It's not really different from the looks you mention. Looks is not an objective measure. You buy a nice looking car because its look evokes positive feelings in you. But other things can evoke positive feelings by association. The brand itself, marketing campaign, corporate image. For many, these (usually carefully cultivated) associations are overshadowed by a loud, controversial, partisan CEO who doesn't evoke positive feelings. It used to be that Tesla cars evoked for me feelings of progress, sort of futurism (although I never really digged its rather bland design), eco-friendliness. Nowadays I see a Tesla and feel a low-key disgust.