5 ms·

That’s a factor, but there are other reasons. Saving money, more online entertainment, the general shift of things done in person are now online, and the dark

That’s a factor, but there are other reasons. Saving money, more online entertainment, the general shift of things done in person are now online, and the dark patterns that keep us tied there.

zem 2y ago
also the increasing unavailability and/or inviability of third spaces where you can just hang out without having to spend a ton of money and deal with unpleasant environments
- bpodgursky 2y ago
  I really don't think this is the reason. Third places are demand-driven, there are a lot of places where a $2 coffee buys you an afternoon. People aren't bothering.
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    > there are a lot of places where a $2 coffee buys you an afternoon. But there also isn't much reason to go there if nobody else does. A weird network-effect thing, right? Like, I didn't bother walking down to the local Chilean bakery that serves food because it's mostly empty most of the time, and there's only so much I can chat to the folks working there about as a stranger who lives down the street.
  - mlinhares 2y ago
    They're not, they're made, just look at all the open streets projects happening all over the world, and specially in Europe. You need people activelly building these third places for them to exist and for people to go there. The US is building most of its new homes in anti-social car controlled environments, where you can't walk anywhere, everything has to be done by driving. Kids can't just roam the neighborhoods anymore and when they do people start asking if they should call the cops. We are sick and it doesn't look like there is much thinking in how to fix it.
  - chubot 2y ago
    You used US dollars as your unit, but I don’t think there’s anywhere in the US where coffee cost $2 anymore Granted I live in more expensive areas, but still
- mjyoon 2y ago
  I don't buy this - there are third spaces where you don't need to spend money and they've been here forever and are usually accessible. Churches, libraries, parks, certain community recreational facilities, gyms ,etc. It's not a lack of spaces, it's an issue of getting to those spaces.
  - arccy 2y ago
    - churches: not really for the non religious - libraries: not if you want to actually talk to people - parks: only if the weather cooperates - certain community recreational facilities: spend money? too activity oriented - gyms: same as above
    - mjyoon 2y ago
      The original poster said "spend a ton of money" (those places you spend money but not a "ton") and I've included churches as an example. This short list isn't comprehensive. Also, have you been to a library recently? There are now spaces where you can socialize and meet.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        >The original poster said "spend a ton of money" (those places you spend money but not a "ton") Then why'd you put gyms in your list? You DO have to spend a ton of money to get a gym membership. And you can't cancel it because you have to sign a ridiculous contract and basically file a lawsuit to end the membership (not really, but it seems almost this bad).
        vel0city 2y ago
        > You DO have to spend a ton of money to get a gym membership. I've been off and on user of several different gyms over the years. I don't recall actually paying for a gym membership myself. It's usually been a gym at my apartment complex, or a gym at the office park where I work, or my employer covered a gym membership, or I got it through health insurance.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  Anecdotally, several managers of such spaces tell me they are dying from lack of use. I know my parents used them, but I never did. My friends used them a bit in university but stopped once they could afford something different. My local community centre's calendar has dried up, despite the space still being there. New neighborhoods sometimes don't even bother to build one now where I am, as there is no demand. Nobody demolished the churches or the libraries, but they have rapidly aging user bases. Rotary and other similar social clubs would love younger members, but younger people don't want them.
  - msds 2y ago
    As a consequence of the aging members, a lot of churches (particularly the less virulent mainstream protestant flavor) around here are merging congregations and getting demolished, to be replaced with more apartment buildings. Sometimes the parishioners will fight the good fight and get concessions made for affordable housing or other social goods.
ricksunny 2y ago
Which particular dark patterns would you be referring to? Sounds intriguing, and the article doesn't mention dark patterns.
- i_read_news 2y ago
  That’s my own take, not actual direct causation. But for example, I’ve experienced and witnessed time taken by endless scrolling design (I.e. TikTok) which could have been spent socially. Since I’ve take time away from such apps with patterns, I feel generally more content, but results may vary.
VancouverMan 2y ago
A lot of formerly-enjoyable leisure activities outside the home have become a lot loss fun over the last few decades, too. I know a lot of people in the US, and especially Canada, who've stopped going to restaurants for example. They now cost too much, the food is often mediocre or even outright bad, the service is often terrible, parking can be an issue in some cities, and it's generally a miserable experience. Cooking at home, even if takes more effort, ends up being comparatively more enjoyable. That's also the case for movies, concerts, sporting events, exhibitions, and tourist venues. The tickets cost a lot relative to the enjoyment that's provided, and the pricing of food and drinks at such events can be astronomical. It has just become prohibitively expensive, especially for families, in addition to the other inconveniences (such as travel and parking) that can be associated with such events. Even something as simple as going to a beach or a lake has become an awful experience in Canada. A problem at Canadian beaches has been foreigners defecating in the sand, rather than using the proper washroom facilities. Even when that isn't happening, such places can be quite crowded and nowhere near as fun as they were in the past when they were quieter. I certainly can't blame people for not wanting to subject themselves to unpleasant experiences like those.
- MattGaiser 2y ago
  Options have also expanded. The options are also not cooking at home vs going to a restaurant. There is now food delivery. It used to be that the only way to get ribs was to make them yourself or go to a restaurant and order them. But now a majority of my rib consumption is via Uber Eats. Movies used to be either in a theatre or a grainy home screen. The home screen is no longer grainy. Same with sports. You have to want the atmosphere to go to a game now. Beaches being crowded indicates use, so I wouldn't put it into the category of restaurant visits, movies, and sports, which are all declining categories overall.
  - freeone3000 2y ago
    We have a lot more people but the same amount of beach — even if people spend more total time at the beach, on average every person goes less often.
  - 2y ago

That’s a factor, but there are other reasons. Saving money, more online entertainment, the general shift of things done in person are now online, and the dark patterns that keep us tied there.

zem 2y ago

also the increasing unavailability and/or inviability of third spaces where you can just hang out without having to spend a ton of money and deal with unpleasant environments

bpodgursky 2y ago
I really don't think this is the reason. Third places are demand-driven, there are a lot of places where a $2 coffee buys you an afternoon. People aren't bothering.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  > there are a lot of places where a $2 coffee buys you an afternoon. But there also isn't much reason to go there if nobody else does. A weird network-effect thing, right? Like, I didn't bother walking down to the local Chilean bakery that serves food because it's mostly empty most of the time, and there's only so much I can chat to the folks working there about as a stranger who lives down the street.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  They're not, they're made, just look at all the open streets projects happening all over the world, and specially in Europe. You need people activelly building these third places for them to exist and for people to go there. The US is building most of its new homes in anti-social car controlled environments, where you can't walk anywhere, everything has to be done by driving. Kids can't just roam the neighborhoods anymore and when they do people start asking if they should call the cops. We are sick and it doesn't look like there is much thinking in how to fix it.
- chubot 2y ago
  You used US dollars as your unit, but I don’t think there’s anywhere in the US where coffee cost $2 anymore Granted I live in more expensive areas, but still
mjyoon 2y ago
I don't buy this - there are third spaces where you don't need to spend money and they've been here forever and are usually accessible. Churches, libraries, parks, certain community recreational facilities, gyms ,etc. It's not a lack of spaces, it's an issue of getting to those spaces.
- arccy 2y ago
  - churches: not really for the non religious - libraries: not if you want to actually talk to people - parks: only if the weather cooperates - certain community recreational facilities: spend money? too activity oriented - gyms: same as above
  - mjyoon 2y ago
    The original poster said "spend a ton of money" (those places you spend money but not a "ton") and I've included churches as an example. This short list isn't comprehensive. Also, have you been to a library recently? There are now spaces where you can socialize and meet.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >The original poster said "spend a ton of money" (those places you spend money but not a "ton") Then why'd you put gyms in your list? You DO have to spend a ton of money to get a gym membership. And you can't cancel it because you have to sign a ridiculous contract and basically file a lawsuit to end the membership (not really, but it seems almost this bad).
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > You DO have to spend a ton of money to get a gym membership. I've been off and on user of several different gyms over the years. I don't recall actually paying for a gym membership myself. It's usually been a gym at my apartment complex, or a gym at the office park where I work, or my employer covered a gym membership, or I got it through health insurance.
MattGaiser 2y ago
Anecdotally, several managers of such spaces tell me they are dying from lack of use. I know my parents used them, but I never did. My friends used them a bit in university but stopped once they could afford something different. My local community centre's calendar has dried up, despite the space still being there. New neighborhoods sometimes don't even bother to build one now where I am, as there is no demand. Nobody demolished the churches or the libraries, but they have rapidly aging user bases. Rotary and other similar social clubs would love younger members, but younger people don't want them.
- msds 2y ago
  As a consequence of the aging members, a lot of churches (particularly the less virulent mainstream protestant flavor) around here are merging congregations and getting demolished, to be replaced with more apartment buildings. Sometimes the parishioners will fight the good fight and get concessions made for affordable housing or other social goods.

ricksunny 2y ago

Which particular dark patterns would you be referring to? Sounds intriguing, and the article doesn't mention dark patterns.

i_read_news 2y ago
That’s my own take, not actual direct causation. But for example, I’ve experienced and witnessed time taken by endless scrolling design (I.e. TikTok) which could have been spent socially. Since I’ve take time away from such apps with patterns, I feel generally more content, but results may vary.

VancouverMan 2y ago

A lot of formerly-enjoyable leisure activities outside the home have become a lot loss fun over the last few decades, too. I know a lot of people in the US, and especially Canada, who've stopped going to restaurants for example. They now cost too much, the food is often mediocre or even outright bad, the service is often terrible, parking can be an issue in some cities, and it's generally a miserable experience. Cooking at home, even if takes more effort, ends up being comparatively more enjoyable. That's also the case for movies, concerts, sporting events, exhibitions, and tourist venues. The tickets cost a lot relative to the enjoyment that's provided, and the pricing of food and drinks at such events can be astronomical. It has just become prohibitively expensive, especially for families, in addition to the other inconveniences (such as travel and parking) that can be associated with such events. Even something as simple as going to a beach or a lake has become an awful experience in Canada. A problem at Canadian beaches has been foreigners defecating in the sand, rather than using the proper washroom facilities. Even when that isn't happening, such places can be quite crowded and nowhere near as fun as they were in the past when they were quieter. I certainly can't blame people for not wanting to subject themselves to unpleasant experiences like those.

MattGaiser 2y ago
Options have also expanded. The options are also not cooking at home vs going to a restaurant. There is now food delivery. It used to be that the only way to get ribs was to make them yourself or go to a restaurant and order them. But now a majority of my rib consumption is via Uber Eats. Movies used to be either in a theatre or a grainy home screen. The home screen is no longer grainy. Same with sports. You have to want the atmosphere to go to a game now. Beaches being crowded indicates use, so I wouldn't put it into the category of restaurant visits, movies, and sports, which are all declining categories overall.
- freeone3000 2y ago
  We have a lot more people but the same amount of beach — even if people spend more total time at the beach, on average every person goes less often.
- 2y ago