8 ms·

Caltrain's new electric trains

101 points by kaycebasques 2y ago

486sx33 2y ago
Are the overhead wires copper? If so what gauge? Anyone know how many lbs per linear foot of copper that would yield ? Asking for a friend
- chiph 2y ago
  Material can vary based on the use. Something like the TGV will use a different alloy than a slower regional line. A quick search shows bronze and hard-drawn copper are frequently used. But I wouldn't rule out stainless steel. BTW - tell your "friend" to wear their insulated gloves. They can be energized up to 25,000 volts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_AC_railway_electrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_AC_railway_electrificati...
  - usr1106 2y ago
    More importantly you can get an electric shock, which typically means killed at 25 kV, without being even close to touching any metal. I believe something as far as 100 cms is considered a safe distance. In Europe youngsters get killed when climbing on parked freight trains. A significant part of railway traffic is electric over here, diesel is only for rural low traffic areas. The article is not worth HN. Not even the manufacturer is mentioned.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Not pure copper, they need to be tight enough for minimal sag between supports, and not wear from abrasion (the phantograph touching the wire). Copper doesn't have good characteristics for that. I don't know what Caltran uses, but it is common to have a steel core and plate it with something else.
  - iggldiggl 2y ago
    Quite to the contrary, copper is the usual material used (either pure, or slightly alloyed to improve tensile strength and abrasion behaviour and things like that without compromising too much on copper's superior electrical conductivity, though that extra tensile strength is only really important for high speed railways – conventional railways could perfectly get by on pure copper alone). Sag is solved by tensioning the wire and using a catenary wire for additional support between poles, and eventual abrasion of the wire is just a fact of life for electric railways.
chiph 2y ago
Someone tell the Town of Atherton that electric trains don't pollute. I think they're now up to 3 lawsuits against California high speed rail, at least two of which are on environmental reasons.
- NikkiA 2y ago
  *Building the line* has a massive environmental impact, so they're not wrong as such. The risk of course is doing what has been done with HS2 in the UK, all the environmental damage before killing most of the project and thus no end benefit*. * Unless you count enriching your tory donors by selling them the cancelled land secretly within hours of cancelling the project.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    All the reasonable alternatives pollute more long term. Nobody will accept the idea that they should become a subsistence farmer that never goes farther from home than he can walk (sexism intended).
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      This is how environmental political activism works: file lawsuits against some new thing because it isn't absolutely perfectly non-polluting and eco-friendly, and force everyone to keep using some old system that's highly polluting and an ecological disaster. For another great example, see nuclear power.
  - melling 2y ago
    Make the highways wider and use tens of millions of cars over decades. Then again, jet fuel will get you there faster. Flying 400 miles is more relaxing than driving. How do electric trains compare? I’m having a little problem with common sense today.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  Can we just tell the town of Atherton to not exist? Atherton is a "general law" city of California and the legislature can dissolve it with a simple majority vote. The purpose of a city in California is to advance and further state policy, so I never understood why the state stands around acting powerless while reactionaries thwart broadly supported state initiatives.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
browningstreet 2y ago
I was just looking at Caltrain routes yesterday wondering how there’s a route from Sunnyvale to SF that takes over 2 hours. Driving (at times) should be about 45 minutes. Didn’t make sense to me.
- tj-teej 2y ago
  It's the local, when you drive you don't stop every 5 miles and pick-up/drop-off a couple dozen people :) The bullets (limited stops) is actually really fast (~45 minutes MTV to SF). At rush hour when it's 1.5 hours from Sunnyvale to downtown SF that's when the bulk of the bullets are scheduled and it's twice as fast as driving, plus you can have a beer ;)
  - iknowstuff 2y ago
    How do the “bullets” work? Passing local trains when they’re stopped on stations? I didn’t notice a third set of rails anywhere for that.
    - najork 2y ago
      There's pretty limited passing on the routes judging from the schedule [0]. It looks like there are a couple sections along the corridor where there's an extra rail for passing [1]. [0] https://www.caltrain.com/schedules/pdfs?active_tab=route_explorer_tab https://www.caltrain.com/schedules/pdfs?active_tab=route_exp... [1] https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/statewide_rail/proj_sections/SanFran_SanJose/Passing_Tracks_Factsheet.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/statewid...
    - dekhn 2y ago
      They don't really pass, except in Burlingame and Sunnyvale. I think they basically just leave enough room between regular trains for the bullets to skip some stations. This is one of the reasons I think the SJ-SF segment of HSR may end up being a bottleneck.
    - CaliforniaKarl 2y ago
Kim_Bruning 2y ago
"And other countries, like India, are moving much faster toward electrification." Well a lot of countries are almost fully electric, and have been for decades?
- tsudounym 2y ago
  Where? Switzerland is 100% but most of continental Europe, Japan and Korea is in the 60-70%s. Then we got USA with 0.84%
  - genewitch 2y ago
    100% of us freight trains use electric motors, I don't know about every passenger rail in the US, but I assure you electric drive is well over 0.84%
    - narism 2y ago
      > 100% of US freight trains use electric motors I think you mean diesel-electric. They are talking about electrified miles of track which is almost exclusively limited to passenger lines in the US. Even where freight trains run on electrified track, they still use diesel-electric motors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tr...
- shekhar101 2y ago
  India is around 94% electrified and seems to be highest amongst larger countries.
jwr 2y ago
As a European, this article is outright bizarre, and makes me appreciate what we have much more. I will complain less about trains from now on.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > makes me appreciate what we have much more. I will complain less about trains from now on European trains are lovely. But coming from New York, where our regional rail runs with Swiss on-timeness, the tolerance for delays in the U.K. and Germany is wild.
  - gmueckl 2y ago
    I think most Germans see the train delays with silent resignation. The delays have been a constant for a long time now despite everlasting promises of improvements.
  - stackghost 2y ago
    Trenitalia has entered the chat. Deutsche Bahn is orders of magnitude better. One time my wife and I were taking the train from Venice to Munich and they (Trenitalia) simply forgot half the cars somewhere.
    - immibis 2y ago
      FWIW Deutsche Bahn is just one of many train operators in Germany. On my recent trip back from Köln to Berlin, I experienced a whole lot of delays in the Rhine-Ruhr region (on trains not operated by DB) and no meaningful delay on the enno, Abellio or DB Regio segments from there on.
      - stackghost 2y ago
        >FWIW Deutsche Bahn is just one of many train operators in Germany I know but they're the only German operator I have significant experience with.
zidel 2y ago
The trains are Stadler KISS electric multiple units with 7 cars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrain_Modernization_Program#Rolling_stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrain_Modernization_Program...
SUDOSuperUser 2y ago
I live 300 Meters from a Station. IT IS SO MUCH QUIETER!
- dekhn 2y ago
  How about the horns? I heard that they are much worse in the new trains.
  - CaliforniaKarl 2y ago
    FWIW, they don't sound worse to me, just different.
  - zbrozek 2y ago
    I was really hoping the end of Chevron deference might mean Caltrain might get to kill off horns and bells. Alas, I don't think so. The optional noise (horns and bells, especially near the level crossings) is obscene and I don't know why we put up with it. Everywhere the trains go, people plug their ears to avoid hearing damage. It's a miserable failure of government.
    - aeternum 2y ago
      The worst part is the horns and bells don't even work. Many people die each year from being hit by Caltrain. Computer vision has come a long way and PoE cameras are now super cheap, would be nice if they installed cameras as part of the electrification project that could continually verify whether crossings /track was clear ahead. It could prevent at least the accidental collisions much better than a horn+bell.
      - creer 2y ago
        Are any significant number of them accidental?
        aeternum 2y ago
        Yes, often a car that is stopped on the tracks then the driver panics when the gates start to come down. Starting with cameras only at the crossings would prevent these with extremely low cost, and crossings are also the only places where the train must blow the horn.
kderbe 2y ago
Anyone interested in Caltrain operation should check out the Caltrain HSR blog, https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/ https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/. It's not just about high-speed rail. For example, last week the blog pointed out that the new trains take an extra 8-10 seconds after stopping at a station to begin opening the doors. Which chews up 12% of the trip time savings achieved by the move from diesel to electrified trains!
- solardev 2y ago
  > As seen in the timeline graphic, allowing the step to deploy and retract while the train is in motion would remove this wasted dwell time. It's interesting... I wonder if extending the step while the train is in motion has the potential to knock people down who's currently on the platform and standing too close to the train. > since the step itself does not extend over the platform (it reaches only 63.5 inches from vehicle center line when fully extended) there can be no hazard to passengers I dunno about that. What if they had an umbrella or grocery bag or such dangling over the platform edge? ---- Maybe the more relevant question is how was it done before? Did the old train also have slowly-extending steps? How is it handled in other countries with functional train networks?
  - ak217 2y ago
    The delay observed happens after the train has stopped. The delay is due to laggy software and can be eliminated without extending anything from the train while it's moving. The old trains have no moving steps.
    - solardev 2y ago
      The video is showing part of that delay, but the blog entry is explicitly suggesting that the step start extending while the train is still in moving (at < 5 mph): > This can be fixed in software. As seen in the timeline graphic, allowing the step to deploy and retract while the train is in motion would remove this wasted dwell time.
  - vasco 2y ago
Animats 2y ago
The trains are the Stadler KISS model, from Switzerland.[1] Many in use worldwide since 2012. Caltrain is using the 25KV version, which is high for a commuter line but compatible with the California high speed rail system. (BART is 1KV. Streetcars are 400-600V.) Some of the Caltrain electric trainsets are currently running, intermixed with the two generations of Diesel trains. And the occasional freight train, which is a Union Pacific operation. I did see one electric trainset being towed by the breakdown locomotive, an old Diesel that Caltrain uses to recover stuck trains. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS
- algo_trader 2y ago
  > (BART is 1KV. How much amps do they need? 2000A? 5000A? How do they carry so much current?
  - immibis 2y ago
    It is a third-rail system, which uses a pretty thick conductor, similar to the two that run underneath the train wheels. https://blog.bayareametro.gov/posts/barts-third-rails-being-switched-out https://blog.bayareametro.gov/posts/barts-third-rails-being-...
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  It's worth noting that BART's mainline 1000 volt setup is pretty unusual (and thus expensive). BART's idiotic cable car is, well, a cable car. And eBART is diesel (DMU).
- jonp888 2y ago
  25kV is the standard for all new mainline railroads these days. Modern electrical technology means there's no reason not to use high voltage AC unless there are issues with clearance(streetcars).
dllu 2y ago
I took a pretty nice photo of the new Caltrain using a line scan camera [1]. [1] https://i.dllu.net/caltrain317_4c6c80561b5156c3.jpg https://i.dllu.net/caltrain317_4c6c80561b5156c3.jpg (6878 x 2048)
- noiobeforebed 2y ago
  Awesome photo!
- Mistletoe 2y ago
  I remember this! So cool.
- dkga 2y ago
  Beautiful!
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> new express route between San Jose and San Francisco will stop at 11 stations instead of seven, and take 59 minutes instead of an hour and five minutes If you ignore wait times. Why couldn’t they have just sped up the train?
- divbzero 2y ago
  The increase in riders might be worthwhile and part of why Caltrain can now have off-peak trains “run every 30 minutes, rather than every hour”.
- noiobeforebed 2y ago
  The track still has a hard speed limit of 79mph from the rails themselves, so much of the savings is in acceleration and braking. Since adding stations costs less time now, I guess they decided these extra two were worth it. edit: rules around level crossings may also have something to do with the speed limit.
- plorkyeran 2y ago
  There were previously stations with enough clear passenger demand to justify express service to those stations, but which weren't on the express line because historically they had fewer passengers. Caltrain didn't want to slow down the express line by adding stops, but now that they have the opportunity to add the stops while also making the service faster they did so.
rootusrootus 2y ago
A few weeks ago I was visiting UK & France, and had several opportunities to experience both LNER and Eurostar trains. I have no illusions that the US is ready for actual HSR, and we'd probably subject it to TSA security as bad or worse than what the Eurostar has now. But LNER ... now that is something I'd like to see here. Not HSR, but 125 mph is still half again as fast as most Amtrak trains. No security hassle, just hop on like you do with the tube. I'd even import the British rail class 800 trains that support both diesel as well as pure electric. Smooth and straighten existing 80mph lines so they're 125mph capable. Run electric in the metro areas and diesel in between. That's a dream. I know. But I do recall Amtrak saying something about making the existing tracks capable of >80mph between Portland and Seattle, and the Talgo trainsets they have now are rated for 120mph IIRC. So maybe we'll get something that doesn't suck.
- vasco 2y ago
  > we'd probably subject it to TSA security as bad or worse than what the Eurostar has now I take the Eurostar a few times a year for work between Amsterdam and Paris and there's literally no security whatsoever. If there's security to board the Eurostar in routes to/from the UK maybe it's because of Brexit?
  - kylegordon 2y ago
    Between Amsterdam and Paris you are within the Schengen zone. UK to Europe will have border control, passports, etc.
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Border control, sure, but we're talking about security. And GGP was talking about traveling around, and seemed to go on multiple trains, presumably several that were not crossing a controlled border. But re: UK<->mainland I guess it shouldn't be surprising that there's more security for the Chunnel crossing. That feels like it would be a much more likely terrorist target than a random HSR route on land.
Lammy 2y ago
> Instead of the rumble of a diesel engine, the trains now run on 100% electricity. What fuel is used to generate the electricity? (Honest question since I have no idea how electricity markets work) > Caltrain […] was the first service to convert from diesel to electric in the West. (A handful of other passenger trains in the country run on electricity, including an Amtrak line in the Northeast.) This is so misleading that I wonder if the author did any research at all. There were too many electric interurbans to even list here, but even if you try to narrow it to heavy main lines it was not the first by any possible interpretation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_railways_in_the_United_States_by_state_or_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_railways_in_... The saddest electric-mainline loss in Caltrain's territory is the old Sacramento Northern, part of which forms the Western Railway Museum trackage: https://www.abandonedrails.com/sacramento-northern-railroad https://www.abandonedrails.com/sacramento-northern-railroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Northern_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Northern_Railway https://old.reddit.com/r/rustyrails/comments/vij28p/route_of_the_former_sacramento_northern_electric/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rustyrails/comments/vij28p/route_of...
- inferiorhuman 2y ago
  > What fuel is used to generate the electricity? (Honest question since I have no idea how electricity markets work) Depends on which system you're talking about. Muni is 100% hydro. BART is more coy but claims their electricity is "greenhouse gas-free" and their diesel (for eBART) is "renewable".
- plorkyeran 2y ago
  Convert is an important word there. It's very obviously not the first electric train service, but they're normally built as electric from the beginning.
  - Lammy 2y ago
    > Convert is an important word there. Yes, that's why it's misleading when the author is framing the important part as "electric train exists now" and not "electric train used to be non-electric". If one must nitpick, the biggest conversion west of the Mississippi River was probably the Milwaukee Road whose converted electrified main line dwarfed Caltrain's 51 miles: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_electrification_in_the_United_States#Chicago,_Milwaukee_and_St._Paul_Railroad_(the_Milwaukee_Road) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_electrification_in_th...> “The first division to be electrified was the Rocky Mountain Division from Harlowton, Montana to Avery, Idaho. This covered a distance of 438 miles (705 km) and began electric operation in 1917. The electrification remained in operation until 1974, when diesel locomotives took over.” “The second division to be electrified was the Coast Division between Othello, Washington to Tacoma, and to Black River just south of Seattle. This covered a distance of 207 miles (333 km) and began electric operation in 1919. The electrification remained in operation until 1972, when diesel locomotives took over.”
dkga 2y ago
I’d be interested to hear about how these trains (and others) would behave in an earthquake. I remember a work colleague who lived through the Loma Prieta going from Berkeley to San Francisco and I’m sure it wasn’t pretty. PS.: huge fan of trains and public transportation here, hopefully other places in North and South America would follow suit!
- FredPret 2y ago
  The Shinkansen cuts power to the train and then hits the breaks as soon as tremors are detected. Perhaps the rails are also designed so the train doesn't hop off.
  - DerekL 2y ago
    * brakes
- aworks 2y ago
  This reminds of the quake when I was driving to Menlo Park and seeing large numbers of people walking down the Caltrain track after it had been stopped in between stations. It looked like a scene out of an apocalyptic movie...
- plorkyeran 2y ago
  For what it's worth, BART ran 24/7 service for a while after Loma Prieta because it was completely undamaged while multiple freeways collapsed.
lynguist 2y ago
On a related tangent, the entire rail network of the whole country of Switzerland was fully electrified by 1967. Electrification had started in 1907 and reached 70% by 1931.
akira2501 2y ago
They're better for the environment. They're better for the environment. THEY'RE BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT! also.. they're less comfortable and less rider friendly than the old trains.. so if your goal is to get more people onto them you're probably going to fail.
- CuriousCosmic 2y ago
  what? the article was literally about how they are more comfortable and they are more convenient because they accelerate and break better allowing more stops without taking longer.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    > My only complaint, when I tried the train out the other day, was that the seats are now a little less comfortable—though the upholstery is easier to clean Seriously? The article plied on about supposed environment benefits but only leaves this _single_ sentence on rider comfort. That tells me something, that either this person is being dishonest, or the people who deploy these trains don't have a clue. > Because the trains are now quieter both onboard and in adjacent neighborhoods, it also might mean that more people are willing to live near the tracks. Or they're just high.
    - CuriousCosmic 2y ago
      You cut the rest of that line. The full quote was: > Caltrain’s new trains also just have the advantage of being new: The trains that are being phased out are nearly 40 years old. They were loud not just because of the diesel engines but because the doors rattled and brakes squealed. The new trains have WiFi, power outlets, better climate control, energy-efficient lighting, and more storage under the seats. (My only complaint, when I tried the train out the other day, was that the seats are now a little less comfortable—though the upholstery is easier to clean.) They are quieter, have more amenities(in-trip wifi, plugs), have more storage space (which means more leg room), and better climate control (AC/heating/ventilation). IMHO those are all way more important to my comfort than the chairs being a bit stiff when the ride is longer than 30 minutes.
ElijahLynn 2y ago
I lived near an electric train in Orenco Station in Hillsboro Oregon. The noise, while quieter than diesel is still fatiguing and I think all housing within 1,000 feet should be required to use building materials that keep the interior noise below 60dba, like triple pane windows and acoustic seals on doors. Once we left, it took weeks for our bodies to relax into the silence. It's not normal to have chronic noise like that and increased our stress. It shouldn't be legal to build buildings without noise protection in place.
kkfx 2y ago
Being from the EU for me all trains are electric (except many in Germany only) so I do not feel any special excitement but observe a thing: the idea of all wagon individually powered is ancient, very ancient, like monorails. Both ideas never get spread simply because they are too expensive instead of cheap, in practice. Electric motors are not expensive as diesel one, they are much more compact etc etc etc but are still much more expensive than a simple wagon without any engine. Meanwhile a larger electric locomotive it's still fast (for instance France TGV, Japan Shinkansen etc) and hyper-fast accelerations are not much welcomed by passengers, so it sound extra added complexity for little to no return. Something not different than some modern tram projects (city buses with electric motors, no battery, and a special trolley to allow get dedicated aerial electricity while rolling on wheels) that in theory sounds good (much less expensive in capex than create new rails in cities) but in practice have so much problems and costs that they are abandoned or will not be replaced because of that. For my little experience USA rails are much older than most EU ones (meaning, they are much less upgraded) and while that's might sound bad from some "modern" people actually IMVHO it is not much because so far ALL RAILS prove too be simply too costly for most usages, only some freight-only rails are effectively interested, passengers ones can't survive without big public contributions while offering a good service. The Swiss choose to waste an immense amount of resources to keep the service level high, pushing nearly empty trains around, all other countries tend to scale back (while formally state the contrary).
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >the idea of all wagon individually powered is ancient, very ancient, like monorails. Both ideas never get spread simply because they are too expensive instead of cheap, in practice. >Meanwhile a larger electric locomotive it's still fast (for instance France TGV, Japan Shinkansen etc) What are you talking about? The shinkansen doesn't have any locomotives: all the cars are powered. >all other countries tend to scale back (while formally state the contrary). Japan is constantly scaling up their train service. The shinkansen is usually at full capacity, or more, which is why they're busy building the new maglev line from Tokyo to Nagoya (and later Osaka). The shinkansen system is quite profitable.
  - 2y ago
charlie0 2y ago
>Because the trains are now quieter both onboard and in adjacent neighborhoods, it also might mean that more people are willing to live near the tracks. Wait a minute, aren't these tracks shared with commercial trains?
- bryananderson 2y ago
  Yes, unfortunately, but the freight traffic (which will needlessly stay diesel) is small, just a couple trains per day. It’s not the 1940s anymore when huge amounts of freight came ashore in San Francisco and propagated down the Southern Pacific line. There are only a couple freight customers left on the Peninsula. Caltrain actually owns the line and previously had the right to kick Union Pacific freight off, but at some point (the 90s?) this right was given up. Regardless, there’s no excuse for the remaining freight (which operates in off-peak hours) to use diesel. Electric freight locomotives are perfectly common in countries where railroading isn’t still stuck in the 1800s.
  - iggldiggl 2y ago
    > Electric freight locomotives are perfectly common in countries where railroading isn’t still stuck in the 1800s. But in those countries electrification is widespread enough that intermodal trains can run on electric traction all the way from terminal to terminal. (And bulk trains at the very least from the nearest marshalling yard, or maybe even the freight terminal itself, too.)
    - bryananderson 2y ago
      Yes but as I understand it the very limited freight service on the peninsula just runs to a nearby UP yard. These are not big long-distance freight trains
byhemechi 2y ago
As an Australian it's always a bit of a shock to see brand new European and American trains stopping at platforms no taller than a kerb, meaning you have to walk up steps. I'd be very interested to see how much of a bottleneck boarding from the lower level of these trains is, in sydney we have double deckers where you board from the middle level from high platforms[1] and the stairs are already a flow limitation in the city section, I can't imagine how bad it would be with people going up two flights of stairs [1] here's a pic: https://railgallery.wongm.com/sydney-trains-bits/F112_6364.jpg.html https://railgallery.wongm.com/sydney-trains-bits/F112_6364.j...

101 points by kaycebasques 2y ago

Are the overhead wires copper? If so what gauge? Anyone know how many lbs per linear foot of copper that would yield ? Asking for a friend

chiph 2y ago
Material can vary based on the use. Something like the TGV will use a different alloy than a slower regional line. A quick search shows bronze and hard-drawn copper are frequently used. But I wouldn't rule out stainless steel. BTW - tell your "friend" to wear their insulated gloves. They can be energized up to 25,000 volts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_AC_railway_electrification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_kV_AC_railway_electrificati...
- usr1106 2y ago
  More importantly you can get an electric shock, which typically means killed at 25 kV, without being even close to touching any metal. I believe something as far as 100 cms is considered a safe distance. In Europe youngsters get killed when climbing on parked freight trains. A significant part of railway traffic is electric over here, diesel is only for rural low traffic areas. The article is not worth HN. Not even the manufacturer is mentioned.
bluGill 2y ago
Not pure copper, they need to be tight enough for minimal sag between supports, and not wear from abrasion (the phantograph touching the wire). Copper doesn't have good characteristics for that. I don't know what Caltran uses, but it is common to have a steel core and plate it with something else.
- iggldiggl 2y ago
  Quite to the contrary, copper is the usual material used (either pure, or slightly alloyed to improve tensile strength and abrasion behaviour and things like that without compromising too much on copper's superior electrical conductivity, though that extra tensile strength is only really important for high speed railways – conventional railways could perfectly get by on pure copper alone). Sag is solved by tensioning the wire and using a catenary wire for additional support between poles, and eventual abrasion of the wire is just a fact of life for electric railways.

chiph 2y ago

Someone tell the Town of Atherton that electric trains don't pollute. I think they're now up to 3 lawsuits against California high speed rail, at least two of which are on environmental reasons.

NikkiA 2y ago
*Building the line* has a massive environmental impact, so they're not wrong as such. The risk of course is doing what has been done with HS2 in the UK, all the environmental damage before killing most of the project and thus no end benefit*. * Unless you count enriching your tory donors by selling them the cancelled land secretly within hours of cancelling the project.
- bluGill 2y ago
  All the reasonable alternatives pollute more long term. Nobody will accept the idea that they should become a subsistence farmer that never goes farther from home than he can walk (sexism intended).
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    This is how environmental political activism works: file lawsuits against some new thing because it isn't absolutely perfectly non-polluting and eco-friendly, and force everyone to keep using some old system that's highly polluting and an ecological disaster. For another great example, see nuclear power.
- melling 2y ago
  Make the highways wider and use tens of millions of cars over decades. Then again, jet fuel will get you there faster. Flying 400 miles is more relaxing than driving. How do electric trains compare? I’m having a little problem with common sense today.
jeffbee 2y ago
Can we just tell the town of Atherton to not exist? Atherton is a "general law" city of California and the legislature can dissolve it with a simple majority vote. The purpose of a city in California is to advance and further state policy, so I never understood why the state stands around acting powerless while reactionaries thwart broadly supported state initiatives.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

browningstreet 2y ago

I was just looking at Caltrain routes yesterday wondering how there’s a route from Sunnyvale to SF that takes over 2 hours. Driving (at times) should be about 45 minutes. Didn’t make sense to me.

tj-teej 2y ago
It's the local, when you drive you don't stop every 5 miles and pick-up/drop-off a couple dozen people :) The bullets (limited stops) is actually really fast (~45 minutes MTV to SF). At rush hour when it's 1.5 hours from Sunnyvale to downtown SF that's when the bulk of the bullets are scheduled and it's twice as fast as driving, plus you can have a beer ;)
- iknowstuff 2y ago
  How do the “bullets” work? Passing local trains when they’re stopped on stations? I didn’t notice a third set of rails anywhere for that.
  - najork 2y ago
    There's pretty limited passing on the routes judging from the schedule [0]. It looks like there are a couple sections along the corridor where there's an extra rail for passing [1]. [0] https://www.caltrain.com/schedules/pdfs?active_tab=route_explorer_tab https://www.caltrain.com/schedules/pdfs?active_tab=route_exp... [1] https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/statewide_rail/proj_sections/SanFran_SanJose/Passing_Tracks_Factsheet.pdf https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/docs/programs/statewid...
  - dekhn 2y ago
    They don't really pass, except in Burlingame and Sunnyvale. I think they basically just leave enough room between regular trains for the bullets to skip some stations. This is one of the reasons I think the SJ-SF segment of HSR may end up being a bottleneck.
  - CaliforniaKarl 2y ago

Kim_Bruning 2y ago

"And other countries, like India, are moving much faster toward electrification." Well a lot of countries are almost fully electric, and have been for decades?

tsudounym 2y ago
Where? Switzerland is 100% but most of continental Europe, Japan and Korea is in the 60-70%s. Then we got USA with 0.84%
- genewitch 2y ago
  100% of us freight trains use electric motors, I don't know about every passenger rail in the US, but I assure you electric drive is well over 0.84%
  - narism 2y ago
    > 100% of US freight trains use electric motors I think you mean diesel-electric. They are talking about electrified miles of track which is almost exclusively limited to passenger lines in the US. Even where freight trains run on electrified track, they still use diesel-electric motors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_transport_network_size https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_rail_tr...
shekhar101 2y ago
India is around 94% electrified and seems to be highest amongst larger countries.

jwr 2y ago

As a European, this article is outright bizarre, and makes me appreciate what we have much more. I will complain less about trains from now on.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> makes me appreciate what we have much more. I will complain less about trains from now on European trains are lovely. But coming from New York, where our regional rail runs with Swiss on-timeness, the tolerance for delays in the U.K. and Germany is wild.
- gmueckl 2y ago
  I think most Germans see the train delays with silent resignation. The delays have been a constant for a long time now despite everlasting promises of improvements.
- stackghost 2y ago
  Trenitalia has entered the chat. Deutsche Bahn is orders of magnitude better. One time my wife and I were taking the train from Venice to Munich and they (Trenitalia) simply forgot half the cars somewhere.
  - immibis 2y ago
    FWIW Deutsche Bahn is just one of many train operators in Germany. On my recent trip back from Köln to Berlin, I experienced a whole lot of delays in the Rhine-Ruhr region (on trains not operated by DB) and no meaningful delay on the enno, Abellio or DB Regio segments from there on.
    - stackghost 2y ago
      >FWIW Deutsche Bahn is just one of many train operators in Germany I know but they're the only German operator I have significant experience with.

zidel 2y ago

The trains are Stadler KISS electric multiple units with 7 cars. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrain_Modernization_Program#Rolling_stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrain_Modernization_Program...

SUDOSuperUser 2y ago

I live 300 Meters from a Station. IT IS SO MUCH QUIETER!

dekhn 2y ago
How about the horns? I heard that they are much worse in the new trains.
- CaliforniaKarl 2y ago
  FWIW, they don't sound worse to me, just different.
- zbrozek 2y ago
  I was really hoping the end of Chevron deference might mean Caltrain might get to kill off horns and bells. Alas, I don't think so. The optional noise (horns and bells, especially near the level crossings) is obscene and I don't know why we put up with it. Everywhere the trains go, people plug their ears to avoid hearing damage. It's a miserable failure of government.
  - aeternum 2y ago
    The worst part is the horns and bells don't even work. Many people die each year from being hit by Caltrain. Computer vision has come a long way and PoE cameras are now super cheap, would be nice if they installed cameras as part of the electrification project that could continually verify whether crossings /track was clear ahead. It could prevent at least the accidental collisions much better than a horn+bell.
    - creer 2y ago
      Are any significant number of them accidental?
      - aeternum 2y ago
        Yes, often a car that is stopped on the tracks then the driver panics when the gates start to come down. Starting with cameras only at the crossings would prevent these with extremely low cost, and crossings are also the only places where the train must blow the horn.

kderbe 2y ago

Anyone interested in Caltrain operation should check out the Caltrain HSR blog, https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/ https://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/. It's not just about high-speed rail. For example, last week the blog pointed out that the new trains take an extra 8-10 seconds after stopping at a station to begin opening the doors. Which chews up 12% of the trip time savings achieved by the move from diesel to electrified trains!

solardev 2y ago
> As seen in the timeline graphic, allowing the step to deploy and retract while the train is in motion would remove this wasted dwell time. It's interesting... I wonder if extending the step while the train is in motion has the potential to knock people down who's currently on the platform and standing too close to the train. > since the step itself does not extend over the platform (it reaches only 63.5 inches from vehicle center line when fully extended) there can be no hazard to passengers I dunno about that. What if they had an umbrella or grocery bag or such dangling over the platform edge? ---- Maybe the more relevant question is how was it done before? Did the old train also have slowly-extending steps? How is it handled in other countries with functional train networks?
- ak217 2y ago
  The delay observed happens after the train has stopped. The delay is due to laggy software and can be eliminated without extending anything from the train while it's moving. The old trains have no moving steps.
  - solardev 2y ago
    The video is showing part of that delay, but the blog entry is explicitly suggesting that the step start extending while the train is still in moving (at < 5 mph): > This can be fixed in software. As seen in the timeline graphic, allowing the step to deploy and retract while the train is in motion would remove this wasted dwell time.
- vasco 2y ago

Animats 2y ago

The trains are the Stadler KISS model, from Switzerland.[1] Many in use worldwide since 2012. Caltrain is using the 25KV version, which is high for a commuter line but compatible with the California high speed rail system. (BART is 1KV. Streetcars are 400-600V.) Some of the Caltrain electric trainsets are currently running, intermixed with the two generations of Diesel trains. And the occasional freight train, which is a Union Pacific operation. I did see one electric trainset being towed by the breakdown locomotive, an old Diesel that Caltrain uses to recover stuck trains. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_KISS

algo_trader 2y ago
> (BART is 1KV. How much amps do they need? 2000A? 5000A? How do they carry so much current?
- immibis 2y ago
  It is a third-rail system, which uses a pretty thick conductor, similar to the two that run underneath the train wheels. https://blog.bayareametro.gov/posts/barts-third-rails-being-switched-out https://blog.bayareametro.gov/posts/barts-third-rails-being-...
inferiorhuman 2y ago
It's worth noting that BART's mainline 1000 volt setup is pretty unusual (and thus expensive). BART's idiotic cable car is, well, a cable car. And eBART is diesel (DMU).
jonp888 2y ago
25kV is the standard for all new mainline railroads these days. Modern electrical technology means there's no reason not to use high voltage AC unless there are issues with clearance(streetcars).

dllu 2y ago

I took a pretty nice photo of the new Caltrain using a line scan camera [1]. [1] https://i.dllu.net/caltrain317_4c6c80561b5156c3.jpg https://i.dllu.net/caltrain317_4c6c80561b5156c3.jpg (6878 x 2048)

noiobeforebed 2y ago
Awesome photo!
Mistletoe 2y ago
I remember this! So cool.
dkga 2y ago
Beautiful!

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> new express route between San Jose and San Francisco will stop at 11 stations instead of seven, and take 59 minutes instead of an hour and five minutes If you ignore wait times. Why couldn’t they have just sped up the train?

divbzero 2y ago
The increase in riders might be worthwhile and part of why Caltrain can now have off-peak trains “run every 30 minutes, rather than every hour”.
noiobeforebed 2y ago
The track still has a hard speed limit of 79mph from the rails themselves, so much of the savings is in acceleration and braking. Since adding stations costs less time now, I guess they decided these extra two were worth it. edit: rules around level crossings may also have something to do with the speed limit.
plorkyeran 2y ago
There were previously stations with enough clear passenger demand to justify express service to those stations, but which weren't on the express line because historically they had fewer passengers. Caltrain didn't want to slow down the express line by adding stops, but now that they have the opportunity to add the stops while also making the service faster they did so.

rootusrootus 2y ago

A few weeks ago I was visiting UK & France, and had several opportunities to experience both LNER and Eurostar trains. I have no illusions that the US is ready for actual HSR, and we'd probably subject it to TSA security as bad or worse than what the Eurostar has now. But LNER ... now that is something I'd like to see here. Not HSR, but 125 mph is still half again as fast as most Amtrak trains. No security hassle, just hop on like you do with the tube. I'd even import the British rail class 800 trains that support both diesel as well as pure electric. Smooth and straighten existing 80mph lines so they're 125mph capable. Run electric in the metro areas and diesel in between. That's a dream. I know. But I do recall Amtrak saying something about making the existing tracks capable of >80mph between Portland and Seattle, and the Talgo trainsets they have now are rated for 120mph IIRC. So maybe we'll get something that doesn't suck.

vasco 2y ago
> we'd probably subject it to TSA security as bad or worse than what the Eurostar has now I take the Eurostar a few times a year for work between Amsterdam and Paris and there's literally no security whatsoever. If there's security to board the Eurostar in routes to/from the UK maybe it's because of Brexit?
- kylegordon 2y ago
  Between Amsterdam and Paris you are within the Schengen zone. UK to Europe will have border control, passports, etc.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    Border control, sure, but we're talking about security. And GGP was talking about traveling around, and seemed to go on multiple trains, presumably several that were not crossing a controlled border. But re: UK<->mainland I guess it shouldn't be surprising that there's more security for the Chunnel crossing. That feels like it would be a much more likely terrorist target than a random HSR route on land.

Lammy 2y ago

> Instead of the rumble of a diesel engine, the trains now run on 100% electricity. What fuel is used to generate the electricity? (Honest question since I have no idea how electricity markets work) > Caltrain […] was the first service to convert from diesel to electric in the West. (A handful of other passenger trains in the country run on electricity, including an Amtrak line in the Northeast.) This is so misleading that I wonder if the author did any research at all. There were too many electric interurbans to even list here, but even if you try to narrow it to heavy main lines it was not the first by any possible interpretation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_railways_in_the_United_States_by_state_or_territory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Electric_railways_in_... The saddest electric-mainline loss in Caltrain's territory is the old Sacramento Northern, part of which forms the Western Railway Museum trackage: https://www.abandonedrails.com/sacramento-northern-railroad https://www.abandonedrails.com/sacramento-northern-railroad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Northern_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Northern_Railway https://old.reddit.com/r/rustyrails/comments/vij28p/route_of_the_former_sacramento_northern_electric/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rustyrails/comments/vij28p/route_of...

inferiorhuman 2y ago
> What fuel is used to generate the electricity? (Honest question since I have no idea how electricity markets work) Depends on which system you're talking about. Muni is 100% hydro. BART is more coy but claims their electricity is "greenhouse gas-free" and their diesel (for eBART) is "renewable".
plorkyeran 2y ago
Convert is an important word there. It's very obviously not the first electric train service, but they're normally built as electric from the beginning.
- Lammy 2y ago
  > Convert is an important word there. Yes, that's why it's misleading when the author is framing the important part as "electric train exists now" and not "electric train used to be non-electric". If one must nitpick, the biggest conversion west of the Mississippi River was probably the Milwaukee Road whose converted electrified main line dwarfed Caltrain's 51 miles: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_electrification_in_the_United_States#Chicago,_Milwaukee_and_St._Paul_Railroad_(the_Milwaukee_Road) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_electrification_in_th...> “The first division to be electrified was the Rocky Mountain Division from Harlowton, Montana to Avery, Idaho. This covered a distance of 438 miles (705 km) and began electric operation in 1917. The electrification remained in operation until 1974, when diesel locomotives took over.” “The second division to be electrified was the Coast Division between Othello, Washington to Tacoma, and to Black River just south of Seattle. This covered a distance of 207 miles (333 km) and began electric operation in 1919. The electrification remained in operation until 1972, when diesel locomotives took over.”

dkga 2y ago

I’d be interested to hear about how these trains (and others) would behave in an earthquake. I remember a work colleague who lived through the Loma Prieta going from Berkeley to San Francisco and I’m sure it wasn’t pretty. PS.: huge fan of trains and public transportation here, hopefully other places in North and South America would follow suit!

FredPret 2y ago
The Shinkansen cuts power to the train and then hits the breaks as soon as tremors are detected. Perhaps the rails are also designed so the train doesn't hop off.
- DerekL 2y ago
  * brakes
aworks 2y ago
This reminds of the quake when I was driving to Menlo Park and seeing large numbers of people walking down the Caltrain track after it had been stopped in between stations. It looked like a scene out of an apocalyptic movie...
plorkyeran 2y ago
For what it's worth, BART ran 24/7 service for a while after Loma Prieta because it was completely undamaged while multiple freeways collapsed.

lynguist 2y ago

On a related tangent, the entire rail network of the whole country of Switzerland was fully electrified by 1967. Electrification had started in 1907 and reached 70% by 1931.

akira2501 2y ago

They're better for the environment. They're better for the environment. THEY'RE BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT! also.. they're less comfortable and less rider friendly than the old trains.. so if your goal is to get more people onto them you're probably going to fail.

CuriousCosmic 2y ago
what? the article was literally about how they are more comfortable and they are more convenient because they accelerate and break better allowing more stops without taking longer.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > My only complaint, when I tried the train out the other day, was that the seats are now a little less comfortable—though the upholstery is easier to clean Seriously? The article plied on about supposed environment benefits but only leaves this _single_ sentence on rider comfort. That tells me something, that either this person is being dishonest, or the people who deploy these trains don't have a clue. > Because the trains are now quieter both onboard and in adjacent neighborhoods, it also might mean that more people are willing to live near the tracks. Or they're just high.
  - CuriousCosmic 2y ago
    You cut the rest of that line. The full quote was: > Caltrain’s new trains also just have the advantage of being new: The trains that are being phased out are nearly 40 years old. They were loud not just because of the diesel engines but because the doors rattled and brakes squealed. The new trains have WiFi, power outlets, better climate control, energy-efficient lighting, and more storage under the seats. (My only complaint, when I tried the train out the other day, was that the seats are now a little less comfortable—though the upholstery is easier to clean.) They are quieter, have more amenities(in-trip wifi, plugs), have more storage space (which means more leg room), and better climate control (AC/heating/ventilation). IMHO those are all way more important to my comfort than the chairs being a bit stiff when the ride is longer than 30 minutes.

ElijahLynn 2y ago

I lived near an electric train in Orenco Station in Hillsboro Oregon. The noise, while quieter than diesel is still fatiguing and I think all housing within 1,000 feet should be required to use building materials that keep the interior noise below 60dba, like triple pane windows and acoustic seals on doors. Once we left, it took weeks for our bodies to relax into the silence. It's not normal to have chronic noise like that and increased our stress. It shouldn't be legal to build buildings without noise protection in place.

kkfx 2y ago

Being from the EU for me all trains are electric (except many in Germany only) so I do not feel any special excitement but observe a thing: the idea of all wagon individually powered is ancient, very ancient, like monorails. Both ideas never get spread simply because they are too expensive instead of cheap, in practice. Electric motors are not expensive as diesel one, they are much more compact etc etc etc but are still much more expensive than a simple wagon without any engine. Meanwhile a larger electric locomotive it's still fast (for instance France TGV, Japan Shinkansen etc) and hyper-fast accelerations are not much welcomed by passengers, so it sound extra added complexity for little to no return. Something not different than some modern tram projects (city buses with electric motors, no battery, and a special trolley to allow get dedicated aerial electricity while rolling on wheels) that in theory sounds good (much less expensive in capex than create new rails in cities) but in practice have so much problems and costs that they are abandoned or will not be replaced because of that. For my little experience USA rails are much older than most EU ones (meaning, they are much less upgraded) and while that's might sound bad from some "modern" people actually IMVHO it is not much because so far ALL RAILS prove too be simply too costly for most usages, only some freight-only rails are effectively interested, passengers ones can't survive without big public contributions while offering a good service. The Swiss choose to waste an immense amount of resources to keep the service level high, pushing nearly empty trains around, all other countries tend to scale back (while formally state the contrary).

shiroiushi 2y ago
>the idea of all wagon individually powered is ancient, very ancient, like monorails. Both ideas never get spread simply because they are too expensive instead of cheap, in practice. >Meanwhile a larger electric locomotive it's still fast (for instance France TGV, Japan Shinkansen etc) What are you talking about? The shinkansen doesn't have any locomotives: all the cars are powered. >all other countries tend to scale back (while formally state the contrary). Japan is constantly scaling up their train service. The shinkansen is usually at full capacity, or more, which is why they're busy building the new maglev line from Tokyo to Nagoya (and later Osaka). The shinkansen system is quite profitable.
- 2y ago

charlie0 2y ago

>Because the trains are now quieter both onboard and in adjacent neighborhoods, it also might mean that more people are willing to live near the tracks. Wait a minute, aren't these tracks shared with commercial trains?

bryananderson 2y ago
Yes, unfortunately, but the freight traffic (which will needlessly stay diesel) is small, just a couple trains per day. It’s not the 1940s anymore when huge amounts of freight came ashore in San Francisco and propagated down the Southern Pacific line. There are only a couple freight customers left on the Peninsula. Caltrain actually owns the line and previously had the right to kick Union Pacific freight off, but at some point (the 90s?) this right was given up. Regardless, there’s no excuse for the remaining freight (which operates in off-peak hours) to use diesel. Electric freight locomotives are perfectly common in countries where railroading isn’t still stuck in the 1800s.
- iggldiggl 2y ago
  > Electric freight locomotives are perfectly common in countries where railroading isn’t still stuck in the 1800s. But in those countries electrification is widespread enough that intermodal trains can run on electric traction all the way from terminal to terminal. (And bulk trains at the very least from the nearest marshalling yard, or maybe even the freight terminal itself, too.)
  - bryananderson 2y ago
    Yes but as I understand it the very limited freight service on the peninsula just runs to a nearby UP yard. These are not big long-distance freight trains

byhemechi 2y ago

As an Australian it's always a bit of a shock to see brand new European and American trains stopping at platforms no taller than a kerb, meaning you have to walk up steps. I'd be very interested to see how much of a bottleneck boarding from the lower level of these trains is, in sydney we have double deckers where you board from the middle level from high platforms[1] and the stairs are already a flow limitation in the city section, I can't imagine how bad it would be with people going up two flights of stairs [1] here's a pic: https://railgallery.wongm.com/sydney-trains-bits/F112_6364.jpg.html https://railgallery.wongm.com/sydney-trains-bits/F112_6364.j...