12 ms·

Do quests, not goals

649 points by zdw 2y ago

Multicomp 2y ago
I can't engage with this now. I'm a big GTD user because of my ADHD, I don't trust myself so I use the GTD system as a big crutch. I pattern match "Quests" in TFA to "projects" in GTD, and "goals" in TFA to "3-5 horizon + someday/maybe list", I don't have time to give nuanced thought to this, but I'm posting my hot take that this looks like a useful tactical method to help oneself take projects off of your someday/maybe lists and work on them, but does not fully address how to make the time. Wait, no, it probably does, but I'm already running over my break time so I'm leaving this comment here as an anchor to come back and review after work.
- digdugdirk 2y ago
  I feel this comment in my soul. If you have any recommendations for resources on general project/life management, please feel free to share.
  - Multicomp 2y ago
    In my quest (ahaha) to not spend my days doing life management system bingo, I've settled on GTD tried mostly flat out the past few years. However, I have recently looked into Zen To Done, and while I see it as Insufficient because I've already put in the GTD work, I think it could be a lower-effort potentially-close-enough alternative method to getting to the GTD Mind Like Water state.
- graypegg 2y ago
  Same here! Most of my life is in Omnifocus specifically (GTD-focused todo app), and I structure the projects like the quests this author mentions. I have to make them gut-feeling boolean checks if that makes sense. "Declutter the house" is perfect, because I know when it's decluttered: when I feel like it is. If I get too specific, there's pretty much 0% chance I'm going to honestly complete it with any sort of accuracy to that goal. Also, hope you had a good day at work!
- borsch 2y ago
  I thought I had ADHD but then I got tested and I have high functioning autism
  - hitsurume 2y ago
    What kind of tools / treatments have you used / learned afterwards to deal with your ADHD like symtoms?
    - borsch 2y ago
      I’m actually super organized and can hyperfocus. I have emotional regulation issues. Abilify (medication), yoga, and running. Those keep me centered, reduce my (embarrassing) adult tantrums. Social skills are the hardest part for me. I can read emotions but trying to understand people’s motivations is as complex as tracking bugs for me. It just doesn’t come naturally. tl;dr exercise tho
- rocqua 2y ago
  I think you're looking to much at the practice, and too little at the framing. The point is not that the structure of a quest works better. The point is that the framing of a quest works better. It inspires, it acknowledges there will be adversity, and thus makes adversity feel like much less of a setback.
- undergod 2y ago
  "I don't trust myself" stop saying that to yourself and you will trust yourself more, especially if you reinforce that feeling with reparative action.
chankstein38 2y ago
The timing of this is neat! We are going on a trip in a week~ and need to get a bunch of packing done and stuff around the house prepped etc. 2 days ago I was picking up a ring for my girlfriend and got a "fix it ticket" for something with my car. I have been really stressed because it adds a new thing with a timeline. The one day I was stressing about it and called it a side quest to myself and immediately the stress dipped. It'll get done and it'll be fine. It needed done anyway and ultimately now I've been given a side quest by a randomly encounter. It's not exciting but reframing it like this helps reduce my stress and allow me to think about the other stuff while still making sure this gets done. So good timing on this post!
- lainga 2y ago
  Do you think it's a matter of the task being framed as within vs. without your agency?
  - chankstein38 2y ago
    I think that makes sense! Basically something that is forced on me vs something I have chosen to participate in. It could be argued whether it fits the latter but reframing can be pretty powerful! I think partially it's that I know that it's a temporary distraction and that's something I'm used to in quest-based games but ultimately I still manage to get the temporary small distractions done (and typically have more fun with those) while still making progress towards the larger quest/goal in this case.
- readthenotes1 2y ago
  I had a job once working with bad people and I morphed my day into the dndonline I was using to decompress with at night. Doing the feature work and adding bugs was like breaking barrels to find loot. Convincing a co-worker to stop creating more bugs was like taking down a minion. Working the politics to get rid of the most dangerous coworker was like killing the boss (he was a contractor and it seemed that everything he did was to damage our team's work)
  - 2y ago
abalaji 2y ago
Sounds similar to the theme system that CGP Grey and Mike advocate for in the Cortex podcast. https://www.themesystem.com/ https://www.themesystem.com/
- rocqua 2y ago
  I thought the same based on the title, but the article feels different. The theme system is about making a commitment, and making failure harder to prevent demoralization, and promote adaptibility. Quests, as presented here, still have a measurable goal, they are specific. That should never be the case with a yearly theme.
RankingMember 2y ago
Isn't this just GTD (Getting Things Done) with different terminology or is my ADHD brain skipping over a more significant difference?
- adamc 2y ago
  Maybe that depends on your mental definition of quest. I don't think of quests as "getting things done" -- they are both more significant and less certain than that. Quests are adventures where you hope for significant outcomes, but where there are many uncertainties. It's OK, perhaps even expected, for a quest to have unexpected outcomes. A quest implies less certainty about the outcome and more of an expectation about personal growth. A lot of GTD is just drudgery to accomplish. Quests are never drudgery. Difficult, maybe, but the journey is probably a bigger part of the quest than the outcome.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  Also ADHD (medicated) and I would say terminology matters a lot. GTD is it's own distraction loop (for me). I enjoy identifying and grouping problem spaces and creating TODO actions to solve them. Thus get stuck on steps 1-3(4) and never get to the doing because I am doing! I'm doing the GTD and getting 3-4 of the 5 steps done! Good job me. Except it's not, it was just another distraction. When I view what needs to be done in terms of "action that does the thing", or going on quest* as described here, I am much more successful. Meds makes the doing of something productive possible, but that something can be anything productive. Knowing I am GTD by working on the first few steps is getting something done. But not really. When I narrow down what I need to do into a single main "quest" and/or coming upon a side-quest and seeing it as that so I can get back to the main thread, I'm taking real action towards it. That doing of something is the actual doing of the thing. Taking the journey of the quest minus all this busy work of defining what I want to get done or what my quest/journey should be, and doing it instead. * I don't actually tell myself I'm on a quest like this article seems to suggest, but "quest" is a very good descriptor of my process (and may start using it because I personally find it fun, and my ADHD like fun)
  - JL-Akrasia 2y ago
dominicq 2y ago
I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll change your approach to it". This thing works because there's a community / group session around it, but it would probably still work even if you just called goals - goals.
- saulpw 2y ago
  Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin" vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".
- nuancebydefault 2y ago
  I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create the mindset that the author wants you to have.
  - iwontberude 2y ago
    Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse repeat. It’s the opposite of fresh and process focused in my mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
    - nuancebydefault 2y ago
      I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder where those connotations of quest come from. Did you in the past play a lot of computer role playing games? Defining work as trips... I wonder... what kind of work do you do and are you happy with the fruits of your work?
- npunt 2y ago
  A different name offers a different perspective, because of all the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have. This is an extremely common and effective problem solving technique.
apitman 2y ago
> Still, the tendency is to wait for a better, less cluttered stretch of time to appear before you do that. You will execute your great plans as soon as life becomes a little easier and more spacious than it is now. > This is exactly backwards. Forming and achieving aspirations is how life gets easier and more spacious.
- feoren 2y ago
  Whoever thinks this is good advice has an extremely easy life. Most people have literally no slack time at all. You're supposed to execute your great plans in the 1 hour per day you have after work, commute, taking care of family, and occasionally taking care of yourself? The hour in which you are deeply exhausted? If that doesn't sound like you, congratulations: you have an easy life. So the real advice is the same as all life advice under the hood: just be born into privilege.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    Do you really think there’s no upward mobility for someone not born into privilege?
    - feoren 2y ago
      A lot less than most people seem to think. By far the best predictor of someone's wealth is their parents' wealth. By very far. The vast majority of wealth is generational. But even if you believe in upward mobility, the point is that needs to happen first before you possibly have time, energy, and money to devote to your passions. It's not backward; if you'd argue "no, succeeding in your passions is what enables upward mobility", then you (A) are thinking of a very small subset of highly marketable passions, and (B) have identified the catch-22 that makes upward mobility so uncommon.
      - LordNerevar76 2y ago
        Do you happen to have any studies to back this up? It makes sense that parental wealth would be one of the strongest predictors of wealth, but I know of at least one study that has demonstrated that 79% of millionaires did not receive any inheritance from their parents. Source: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-study-of-millionaires-research https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-stud...
ksd482 2y ago
as I was reading the article I was thinking "Oh, you mean labeling your goals differently will cause you to think about them differently and hence, will cause you to plan differently". That is, there would be something tangible that would be different. So I tuned in to learn more about the technique but I was disappointed to learn that there's nothing more to it at least in the article. It just suggests to re-label your goals differently and think of them as "quests", but it doesn't mention anything more. I really want to learn how to make my chores and boring goals fun so that I can go about them doing them. Can anyone please shed some light on this? I have tried to gamify my work but it hasn't worked for me.
- moneil971 2y ago
  I’m not sure the article fully gets there (he’s clearly driving business for his own course), but the general idea is that you don’t set a “goal” of a thing you hope to accomplish - you should be fully envisioning who that future you will be - and what they do every day…then start doing that. So the quest is about who you want to become, while the goal is just an aspiration without a real vision.
- RHSman2 2y ago
  It has to be authentic in my experience. The naming doesn’t matter. It’s the emotional response it creates. Procrastination = lazy Or Procrastination = in preparation
- seb1204 2y ago
  At uni I lived with a friend who was doing his doctor of biology. When he got home he went like 200% on all his chores and within a short amount of time he was sitting in front of the TV having a beer. Being very efficient with the boring stuff can help to get it over with. I think about him a lot when it takes me 2 hours in the morning for lunch boxes, dog and getting ready myself.
- carbine 2y ago
  Sometimes it can be as simple as asking yourself, "what if this were fun?" What would have to happen? Well, I'd have to have a different attitude and find something I enjoy about it, for starters. Listening to an extremely engaging podcast or audiobook while I do chores, for example, helps a lot. Or challenging myself to find the humor in a situation. But those are coping mechanisms for dealing with necessary but annoying tasks. Work related quests require a different approach -- I guess my first question of something feels like a miserable grind is, "is this really the thing I want to be doing with my life?" Sometimes no amount of reframing a job will make it tolerable if it's just not your thing.
jessetemp 2y ago
I think what’s going on behind the verbal sleight of hand here, is focusing on the process (quest) instead of the outcome (goal). It’s the difference between doing a thing and having done a thing. I might enjoy having written a book, but I don’t think I would enjoy writing a book. And I don’t think calling it a quest instead of a goal would make much difference
- fizlebit 2y ago
  It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games. But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.
- dclowd9901 2y ago
  I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented and I’m more process oriented. I see every day spent working toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended up not ever achieving them because of it. As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It’s a big, big task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do. I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I’ve heard anecdotally.
  - mcdow 2y ago
    Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible if you don’t like running. Inevitable if you like running. Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do all “quests” now. If you enjoy the process, anything is possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process. I’ve extended it to several areas I didn’t find very fun prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular. I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1]. Warning, it’s quite verbose and not the best. There’s a TL;DR. [1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-language-like-a-software-engineer/ https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-l...
B-Con 2y ago
This reminds me of the "systems vs goals" mentality, which emphasizes focusing on having a good systematic process for the journey rather than fixating on specific outcomes. Some prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643 Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) was a huge proponent of it and he exposed me to the concept in my mid 20s. It heavily resonated with me and fundamentally changed my outlook on several areas of life. This specific framing of Quests vs Goals seems a bit more like a change in framing your perspective, but I see some similar concepts, eg: > You don’t just get the novel started, you become a writer. You don’t just declutter the house, you get your house in order.
- throwaway29812 2y ago
  > Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) Apropo of nothing his book "How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big" was excellent, I remember seeing when he first joined Twitter. I was one of his first few followers, even said "welcome" and he said "thanks". Then he got divorced and angry and red pilled. Happens far too often..
6451937099 2y ago
[dead]
highfrequency 2y ago
I've always found it interesting that when people encounter challenges and roadblocks when playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons, they are energized and sometimes even relieved the game is not too easy. But when encountering setbacks in work the default is to get frustrated. I'm pretty sure it's not the type of challenge that differs. In DnD a lot of the challenges are logistical in nature or some kind of interpersonal conflict. My take is that the main difference is perceived risk / perceived high stakes. In a game you are in a circle of safety, so you don't get as stressed about roadblocks - whereas if you perceive negative consequences for failing to reach a goal in real life, then any obstacle looks like a survival threat and the anxiety about failing distracts from fully engaging with the challenge. As an example outside of work: if you're playing DnD and the DM says: "the bartender gives you a rude look" you are intrigued and curious. If a waiter in real life gives you a rude look, most of our brain's will at least temporarily go into ego threat mode and fall into a default of freezing, leaving or arguing back. We will be distracted, bothered, and generally the opposite of open-minded and curious. My point is not whether these are ideal responses but to note how differently our brains respond in a situation where there is actually minimal risk, but our brain perceives high risk because of outdated programming. Another example in the other direction: people can easily start taking games too seriously and become ego-attached to the goal, and the same brain response occurs. These extreme examples strongly suggest that it is the perceived threat rather than actual threat that drive our responses, and perception can often be very out of whack with reality and inhibit effective problem solving. For most people in most work challenges, the actual survival threat from obstacles is small. Our brains massively overexaggerate it because we evolved in a context where most problems (especially social ones) actually were life-threatening. I would even say that in cases where survival (or your income) is threatened by an obstacle, downregulating the fear/threat response will usually improve your chances of finding a solution. Negative emotions narrow attention, draw us inward and prevent both mental flexibility and engagement with the world, which make solving difficult problems much harder. To summarize: given how much more inherently motivating it is to work on challenges that are similar in nature to the ones we procrastinate on in life, it seems worthwhile to try to downregulate our evolved fear/threat response when encountering obstacles.
- jamesgreenleaf 2y ago
al_borland 2y ago
After playing too much Zelda, I had the thought to make a todo app that was organized by Main Story and Side Quests. The Main Story section would be projects, and those bigger more aspersions goals to move the story of life forward. Side Quests would be those little things along the way, that are usually one and done. I ended up realizing building the app would really just be procrastination, and simply make a couple Lists in Apple Reminders for Main Story and Side Quests. Good enough. Functionally, but I guess it’s not much different than Projects and Random, but I find it slightly more assuming.
- komali2 2y ago
  Some people might still find such an app useful. Framing problems in different ways is sometimes all it takes. A lot of apps could simply be spreadsheets, but it's still a bajillion dollar market.
727564797069706 2y ago
This is such a simple distinction, yet totally transforming and invigorating! I appreciate a lot if people share such insights.
sim7c00 2y ago
this is reworded alan watts. life is like music, its not all about the final chrashing chord, so enjoy the journey. thats with all things, but not everyone flows like that. some people enjoy results and are ok being frustrated getting there. personally, i think that is physically unhealthy. you might have the mental fortitude to push on forever, but physiology is affected by stress, and friction / frustration causes stress. thats hormones and thus kind of unavoidable (but managable again... with the anti hormones.). stress management takes time though, building anti cortisol. so it would be more efficient not to build so much cortisol (enjoy the ride) so you dont need to waste your productivity time building anti cortisol.
mickduprez 2y ago
The power of words! Nothing new here really, it's the old systems/process vs goal story but actually I felt that one word make a cognitive shift, for me at least :)
littke 2y ago
Reminds me of Dream Mapping: https://www.squadformers.com/dream-mapping https://www.squadformers.com/dream-mapping It’s about replacing OKRs with stories and maps.
- spikey_sanju 2y ago
  Just read it. This is interesting. Definitely, we will be trying this on our team. Thanks!
danjc 2y ago
It's helpful to learn to categorize things as urgent or important. Not many things are both and urgent always masquerades as important.
LoveMortuus 2y ago
This has been said many times, but it is worth repeating from time to time. It's analogous to “Have systems, not goals” or “Build habits, not goals” and I'm sure you can think of many such variations on the words, but at the end they all mean the same. Don't choose a point on the line that is your life, choose a vector.
- atoav 2y ago
  Just don't fall into the trap that this means you shouldn't have goals. I would phrase it as: The way is more important than the destinations, but destinations are also worth having if you want to continue on the way.
  - klabb3 2y ago
    I dislike the term, but something like goals are useful to have and I enjoy them. But to me, they are more like visions of how I would want things to be. While clearly defined goals can be helpful when dealing with other people who frequently move goalposts, for my personal “goals” I find that those narrowly defined milestones are not helpful for motivation, nor a particularly good proxy for what’s really important. Weirdly, I’ve been way, way more consistent with my somewhat loose “vision” than I ever saw in corporate life, where goals would change frequently depending on popular buzzwords, reorgs, new grand poobah hires, etc. That’s made me think of goals more as a coping mechanism for a jittery “inner compass” or lack of direction. But of course, all of these terms have different connotations for different people.
    - chii 2y ago
      exactly. Goals are not what you do. Goals are sort of like desires, or outcomes you want, but you don't do a goal every day. By building up habits and systems and processes, and do them every day, the routine will eventually lead to a goal.
    - atoav 2y ago
      Thst is why I used metaphorical language here. Goals sound very well defined like something from a business plan. And granted, sometimes it is nice to have well defined goals, e.g. when you are in a group or some other situation where having a bit more objectively formulated expectations help. Life coaches would tell you you should not only formulate goals, but also say within which time you want to get there. As you I found this can kill all joy. A vague vision is sometimes better as it can be adjusted to life circumstances. E.g. if you're a musician of course your vision is to make good music of a certain style, but as you are one part of a band within a uncertain environment anything more precise than a vague "move the band forward" would need to be overhauled every other month. But for other
langsoul-com 2y ago
I'd argue a quest can have the same pitfalls of a goal. That is you see it's so far off and do nothing about it on a continuous basis. Process VS goal always depends on the person. If someone has a goal, and everything around them is distracting them from reaching the finish line, the a quest would be irritating. Opposite is true too, a goal might have been the goal to start, but life changed and now they're chasing something that doesn't personally matter any more.
- atoav 2y ago
  I often get asked by people how I learned to do X, where X is a skill that takes time and dedication, be it designing electronic circuits, playing musical instruments, programming etc. The answer is that you need to enjoy learning, because when you learn a thing most of the time you suck at it and most of the time there is something that you can't do or don't know. The person who is writing books because they like to learn about the universe, humanity and themselves will likely become better at writing books than the person who ticks off "Written a book" on their bucket list. The way I look at it, if you want to become really good it needs to be a quest with a many small goals sprinkled on top. The quest needs to be something you could do literally forever (e.g. play music, write code) and the goals could be single projects, etc. But for me the goals are just a means to do the quest, not the other way around.
hasoleju 2y ago
I like how the name quest emphasizes the process, not the initially desired outcome. When you go on a quest you gain experience and have encounters that might even change your initially desired outcome. Instead of trying to reach an outcome you enjoy an adventure and change the human you are. A quest is a journey where the final destination is not clear in the beginning. But if you are successful, you will be a better version of yourself on the other side of the journey.
jaza 2y ago
Great, it's a quest - I can use coconuts!
anirudhk 2y ago
Process over outcomes; systems over goals; growth mindset over fixed mindset; satisficing over maximizing; professionalism over amateurism; boring fundamentals over flashy tricks; response over reaction; agency over passivity; presence over regret and worry. Unlearning Perfectionism https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/ https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/
- klabb3 2y ago
  Maybe this is insightful at its core, but “growth” and especially “growth mindset” is the most LinkedIn performance review garbage I’ve ever been force fed, so it’s a bit of a turnoff simply based on how I’ve seen it used in practice.
  - halfcat 2y ago
    You’re not wrong that it’s been hijacked as productivity theatre. But it also doesn’t reduce the wildly positive impact of growth mindset. It’s kind of like exercise. It’s a basic thing. People know in a logical sense they should do it. And we feel like we get the benefit by learning about it. But we get zero of the benefit if we don’t do the work, and do it consistently. It’s a “mastery of the basics” situation, where getting yourself to avoid the fixed mindset mental trap, and think in a growth mindset moment to moment, results in a level of effectiveness that almost cannot be explained, only experienced.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  The problem is, if you follow that religiously, you'll never achieve anything worthwhile. All of those push you away from finishing, the same way that their opposite do. It's valuable for "unlearning", and I am one of the people that must always be reminded of it. But if you go and "learn" that way outright, it will damage you too.
deanc 2y ago
I'm surprised in the context of this discussion, that nobody has yet brought up James Clear's fantastic book: Atomic Habits [1] - one of the best selling non-fiction books worldwide over the last few years. I read this book over the summer, and it's an incredibly easy to digest breakdown of all the reasons why people fail at their goals, and very simple mind hacks to change the way you approach achieving them through good habits and avoiding bad ones. [1] https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits
- haste410 2y ago
  Personally I am glad no one mentioned that book. It's an overly long blog post with some anecdotes mixed in to stretch it to book length.
  - Multicomp 2y ago
    I preferred Charles Duigg's book the Power of Habit for similar reasons. All the material in Atomic Habits with more meat.
  - deanc 2y ago
    What didn’t you like about it?
teddyh 2y ago
A.k.a. “systems vs. goals”: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcKTYvupJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcKTYvupJw>
brian_cunnie 2y ago
Thought-provoking piece, but I think it ignores one key item: we naturally gravitate to doing what we love. We don't need to write them down. I never wrote down, "build a dual-stack homelab with a handcrafted firewall and a 10Gbe fiber backbone with multiple VLANs and subnets and two virtualization hosts and a 12TB TrueNAS server, and DNS and Minio and DHCP and k8s." Of the hundreds of hours I spent on my homelab, I don't think I ever wrote down a "quest" or "goal". Similarly, I love swimming in the open cold water, but I never wrote down, "Swim from Alcatraz twice". It wasn't necessary. It happened organically.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  But notice that you cherry-picked accomplishments that sound impressive. You didn't say "I watched 10 seasons of The Office", "I wasted over 8000 hours on HN", or "I impulse-bought a shed full of tools I never use", it happened organically!
  - brian_cunnie 2y ago
    Good point! I've also played almost a year's worth of World of Warcraft — it happened organically!
Venkatesh10 2y ago
I feel like this is one of those gamified ways, we can tell our brain to work things on without burning out. But there will be a limit on how efficient we can go without getting bored or tired about.
MisterBastahrd 2y ago
Depends on how your brain is wired, I guess. Know what happens if I go on a quest instead of pursuing a goal? I end up using every available moment of time to plan said quest. So I don't do quests. I have goals. As long as I'm moving forward, it doesn't matter what specific route I take.
veunes 2y ago
I think it all depends on the individual. Some people thrive with a quest mentality, while others prefer setting goals. Some live by analyzing their days using a SWOT system and this push them forward. Others are used to setting one big goal and like a dream.
u32480932048 2y ago
As a professional procrastinator, even the title makes immediate sense, and has already helped me reframe my to-do list. I'll read the rest of it ...later.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
NotAnOtter 2y ago
"It's the journey not the destination" written pedantically as though it's audience could only find a central loci of control by superimposing their life into Lord of the Rings
gbro3n 2y ago
It's about the journey, not the destination ...
notenough 2y ago
For around 3 years, I was living in a Chaos where I wasn't paying attention to anything around, I was just working aimlessly and not thinking rationally if I'm improving or anything for that matter and my days were passing one after another, I can't remember the jump between 26 to 29 properly, if I did anything significantly. Long story short I joined a new start up last April as a Senior Dev and my productive shot up in terms of work getting done, then I started being mindful of what I'm doing weekly and retrospecting actively about work, eventually few months back while I realized that I haven't filed my taxes yet and I'm in better place in terms of work but anything personally I've no "goals" or things to be excited about. So one fine Sunday, I made a google doc for things that I need to do and I also lacked clarity about how my credit card charges work, Like I know I can pay a minimum but what really happens when I keep paying minimum , so I started noting down things that I would like to understand further in that google doc as a checklist, this is my weekend activity, I denote my weekdays for work and one weekend I dedicate to the things in the Doc. It brought a bit of sanity to life. So calling it either a Quest or Goal doesn't matter , what you need is a process that works for you . Now in 8-10 weeks I'm aware about : 1. How my credit card charges work, what reward it has, Also I'm approaching zero debt , I can't pay 3.5% every month. 2. I understand what happens if I use my credit card/ debit card in a foreign country, why I should a particular type of forex Card . Also , I've noted all this learnings in the same doc because I can't really retain my knowledge after over a year but if I keep seeing it , it might help a bit . (Also, I'm trying to actual be involved in conversations here , instead of lurking , so that I can actual form my own opinions )
kevinslin 2y ago
snarky part of me wants to say that X not Y is a trope that has been over used by people trying to peddle their own thing that is just a thin veneer of what was there before but it’s easy to be a pessimist and pull down other work i agree that goals are hard and in some sense, set people up to fail by making the target some ephemeral thing in the distance maybe reframing it as a quest can help it’s something that can be hard it can change you the outcome might be different from what you intended by all means. do quests. not goals. will go back to nike on this one. just do it

649 points by zdw 2y ago

I can't engage with this now. I'm a big GTD user because of my ADHD, I don't trust myself so I use the GTD system as a big crutch. I pattern match "Quests" in TFA to "projects" in GTD, and "goals" in TFA to "3-5 horizon + someday/maybe list", I don't have time to give nuanced thought to this, but I'm posting my hot take that this looks like a useful tactical method to help oneself take projects off of your someday/maybe lists and work on them, but does not fully address how to make the time. Wait, no, it probably does, but I'm already running over my break time so I'm leaving this comment here as an anchor to come back and review after work.

digdugdirk 2y ago
I feel this comment in my soul. If you have any recommendations for resources on general project/life management, please feel free to share.
- Multicomp 2y ago
  In my quest (ahaha) to not spend my days doing life management system bingo, I've settled on GTD tried mostly flat out the past few years. However, I have recently looked into Zen To Done, and while I see it as Insufficient because I've already put in the GTD work, I think it could be a lower-effort potentially-close-enough alternative method to getting to the GTD Mind Like Water state.
graypegg 2y ago
Same here! Most of my life is in Omnifocus specifically (GTD-focused todo app), and I structure the projects like the quests this author mentions. I have to make them gut-feeling boolean checks if that makes sense. "Declutter the house" is perfect, because I know when it's decluttered: when I feel like it is. If I get too specific, there's pretty much 0% chance I'm going to honestly complete it with any sort of accuracy to that goal. Also, hope you had a good day at work!
borsch 2y ago
I thought I had ADHD but then I got tested and I have high functioning autism
- hitsurume 2y ago
  What kind of tools / treatments have you used / learned afterwards to deal with your ADHD like symtoms?
  - borsch 2y ago
    I’m actually super organized and can hyperfocus. I have emotional regulation issues. Abilify (medication), yoga, and running. Those keep me centered, reduce my (embarrassing) adult tantrums. Social skills are the hardest part for me. I can read emotions but trying to understand people’s motivations is as complex as tracking bugs for me. It just doesn’t come naturally. tl;dr exercise tho
rocqua 2y ago
I think you're looking to much at the practice, and too little at the framing. The point is not that the structure of a quest works better. The point is that the framing of a quest works better. It inspires, it acknowledges there will be adversity, and thus makes adversity feel like much less of a setback.
undergod 2y ago
"I don't trust myself" stop saying that to yourself and you will trust yourself more, especially if you reinforce that feeling with reparative action.

chankstein38 2y ago

The timing of this is neat! We are going on a trip in a week~ and need to get a bunch of packing done and stuff around the house prepped etc. 2 days ago I was picking up a ring for my girlfriend and got a "fix it ticket" for something with my car. I have been really stressed because it adds a new thing with a timeline. The one day I was stressing about it and called it a side quest to myself and immediately the stress dipped. It'll get done and it'll be fine. It needed done anyway and ultimately now I've been given a side quest by a randomly encounter. It's not exciting but reframing it like this helps reduce my stress and allow me to think about the other stuff while still making sure this gets done. So good timing on this post!

lainga 2y ago
Do you think it's a matter of the task being framed as within vs. without your agency?
- chankstein38 2y ago
  I think that makes sense! Basically something that is forced on me vs something I have chosen to participate in. It could be argued whether it fits the latter but reframing can be pretty powerful! I think partially it's that I know that it's a temporary distraction and that's something I'm used to in quest-based games but ultimately I still manage to get the temporary small distractions done (and typically have more fun with those) while still making progress towards the larger quest/goal in this case.
readthenotes1 2y ago
I had a job once working with bad people and I morphed my day into the dndonline I was using to decompress with at night. Doing the feature work and adding bugs was like breaking barrels to find loot. Convincing a co-worker to stop creating more bugs was like taking down a minion. Working the politics to get rid of the most dangerous coworker was like killing the boss (he was a contractor and it seemed that everything he did was to damage our team's work)
- 2y ago

abalaji 2y ago

Sounds similar to the theme system that CGP Grey and Mike advocate for in the Cortex podcast. https://www.themesystem.com/ https://www.themesystem.com/

rocqua 2y ago
I thought the same based on the title, but the article feels different. The theme system is about making a commitment, and making failure harder to prevent demoralization, and promote adaptibility. Quests, as presented here, still have a measurable goal, they are specific. That should never be the case with a yearly theme.

RankingMember 2y ago

Isn't this just GTD (Getting Things Done) with different terminology or is my ADHD brain skipping over a more significant difference?

adamc 2y ago
Maybe that depends on your mental definition of quest. I don't think of quests as "getting things done" -- they are both more significant and less certain than that. Quests are adventures where you hope for significant outcomes, but where there are many uncertainties. It's OK, perhaps even expected, for a quest to have unexpected outcomes. A quest implies less certainty about the outcome and more of an expectation about personal growth. A lot of GTD is just drudgery to accomplish. Quests are never drudgery. Difficult, maybe, but the journey is probably a bigger part of the quest than the outcome.
1659447091 2y ago
Also ADHD (medicated) and I would say terminology matters a lot. GTD is it's own distraction loop (for me). I enjoy identifying and grouping problem spaces and creating TODO actions to solve them. Thus get stuck on steps 1-3(4) and never get to the doing because I am doing! I'm doing the GTD and getting 3-4 of the 5 steps done! Good job me. Except it's not, it was just another distraction. When I view what needs to be done in terms of "action that does the thing", or going on quest* as described here, I am much more successful. Meds makes the doing of something productive possible, but that something can be anything productive. Knowing I am GTD by working on the first few steps is getting something done. But not really. When I narrow down what I need to do into a single main "quest" and/or coming upon a side-quest and seeing it as that so I can get back to the main thread, I'm taking real action towards it. That doing of something is the actual doing of the thing. Taking the journey of the quest minus all this busy work of defining what I want to get done or what my quest/journey should be, and doing it instead. * I don't actually tell myself I'm on a quest like this article seems to suggest, but "quest" is a very good descriptor of my process (and may start using it because I personally find it fun, and my ADHD like fun)
- JL-Akrasia 2y ago

dominicq 2y ago

I am generally skeptical of systems that apparently mostly rely on the methodology of "call this thing another name and you'll change your approach to it". This thing works because there's a community / group session around it, but it would probably still work even if you just called goals - goals.

saulpw 2y ago
Names matter. Subtle differences in perception change your stance in approaching and interpreting the thing. Like "violin" vs "fiddle", or "assertive" vs "aggressive".
nuancebydefault 2y ago
I have a different take. A pet peeve of mine is give things a good name and define what you mean by it. A good name is as much as possible self-explaining. Quest rhymes well with adventure, detours, heroism,... the word itself tends to create the mindset that the author wants you to have.
- iwontberude 2y ago
  Quest rhymes with mindless grinding in my mind, go there fetch this, kill that, get the gold or the item, rinse repeat. It’s the opposite of fresh and process focused in my mind. Better yet is define our work as trips (like psychedelic) where the outcome is unknown until the end and the expectations are malleable. Goals and quests are both corporate nerd speak and make me sick.
  - nuancebydefault 2y ago
    I'm sorry to hear that. I wonder where those connotations of quest come from. Did you in the past play a lot of computer role playing games? Defining work as trips... I wonder... what kind of work do you do and are you happy with the fruits of your work?
npunt 2y ago
A different name offers a different perspective, because of all the associations with the name. Problems that are hard to solve are often hard because we're stuck on a particular perspective as to how to solve them. Reframing with new associations is a way to gain a new perspective, to look at the problem differently, to gain insight that you previously did not have. This is an extremely common and effective problem solving technique.

apitman 2y ago

> Still, the tendency is to wait for a better, less cluttered stretch of time to appear before you do that. You will execute your great plans as soon as life becomes a little easier and more spacious than it is now. > This is exactly backwards. Forming and achieving aspirations is how life gets easier and more spacious.

feoren 2y ago
Whoever thinks this is good advice has an extremely easy life. Most people have literally no slack time at all. You're supposed to execute your great plans in the 1 hour per day you have after work, commute, taking care of family, and occasionally taking care of yourself? The hour in which you are deeply exhausted? If that doesn't sound like you, congratulations: you have an easy life. So the real advice is the same as all life advice under the hood: just be born into privilege.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  Do you really think there’s no upward mobility for someone not born into privilege?
  - feoren 2y ago
    A lot less than most people seem to think. By far the best predictor of someone's wealth is their parents' wealth. By very far. The vast majority of wealth is generational. But even if you believe in upward mobility, the point is that needs to happen first before you possibly have time, energy, and money to devote to your passions. It's not backward; if you'd argue "no, succeeding in your passions is what enables upward mobility", then you (A) are thinking of a very small subset of highly marketable passions, and (B) have identified the catch-22 that makes upward mobility so uncommon.
    - LordNerevar76 2y ago
      Do you happen to have any studies to back this up? It makes sense that parental wealth would be one of the strongest predictors of wealth, but I know of at least one study that has demonstrated that 79% of millionaires did not receive any inheritance from their parents. Source: https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-study-of-millionaires-research https://www.ramseysolutions.com/retirement/the-national-stud...

ksd482 2y ago

as I was reading the article I was thinking "Oh, you mean labeling your goals differently will cause you to think about them differently and hence, will cause you to plan differently". That is, there would be something tangible that would be different. So I tuned in to learn more about the technique but I was disappointed to learn that there's nothing more to it at least in the article. It just suggests to re-label your goals differently and think of them as "quests", but it doesn't mention anything more. I really want to learn how to make my chores and boring goals fun so that I can go about them doing them. Can anyone please shed some light on this? I have tried to gamify my work but it hasn't worked for me.

moneil971 2y ago
I’m not sure the article fully gets there (he’s clearly driving business for his own course), but the general idea is that you don’t set a “goal” of a thing you hope to accomplish - you should be fully envisioning who that future you will be - and what they do every day…then start doing that. So the quest is about who you want to become, while the goal is just an aspiration without a real vision.
RHSman2 2y ago
It has to be authentic in my experience. The naming doesn’t matter. It’s the emotional response it creates. Procrastination = lazy Or Procrastination = in preparation
seb1204 2y ago
At uni I lived with a friend who was doing his doctor of biology. When he got home he went like 200% on all his chores and within a short amount of time he was sitting in front of the TV having a beer. Being very efficient with the boring stuff can help to get it over with. I think about him a lot when it takes me 2 hours in the morning for lunch boxes, dog and getting ready myself.
carbine 2y ago
Sometimes it can be as simple as asking yourself, "what if this were fun?" What would have to happen? Well, I'd have to have a different attitude and find something I enjoy about it, for starters. Listening to an extremely engaging podcast or audiobook while I do chores, for example, helps a lot. Or challenging myself to find the humor in a situation. But those are coping mechanisms for dealing with necessary but annoying tasks. Work related quests require a different approach -- I guess my first question of something feels like a miserable grind is, "is this really the thing I want to be doing with my life?" Sometimes no amount of reframing a job will make it tolerable if it's just not your thing.

jessetemp 2y ago

I think what’s going on behind the verbal sleight of hand here, is focusing on the process (quest) instead of the outcome (goal). It’s the difference between doing a thing and having done a thing. I might enjoy having written a book, but I don’t think I would enjoy writing a book. And I don’t think calling it a quest instead of a goal would make much difference

fizlebit 2y ago
It is a fail/succeed mindset rather than a play mindset I imagine. I definitely feel a difference between a chore and a game. That said not all chores are easily turned into games. But seeking games over chores probably leads to a happier time.
dclowd9901 2y ago
I think about this a lot. I think my dad was more goal oriented and I’m more process oriented. I see every day spent working toward a goal as a valuable step toward it, while I think he tried to always shorten the path to reach his goals, and ended up not ever achieving them because of it. As an example, I do car restoration as a hobby. It’s a big, big task to basically dismantle a car, fix body issues, rebuild the engine and transmission, clean up all the parts, and put it back together. Looking at the entire task outside of it, seems almost impossible to do, but I almost never think about the end of the work. I just think about the next thing I need to do. I think marathon runners do something similar, or so I’ve heard anecdotally.
- mcdow 2y ago
  Marathon runner here. Spot on. A marathon is near impossible if you don’t like running. Inevitable if you like running. Marathon training is actually the framework around which I do all “quests” now. If you enjoy the process, anything is possible. The key is finding a way to enjoy the process. I’ve extended it to several areas I didn’t find very fun prior. Language learning and job hunting in particular. I actually wrote my first blog post on this very subject[1]. Warning, it’s quite verbose and not the best. There’s a TL;DR. [1] https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-language-like-a-software-engineer/ https://emmettmcdow.github.io/posts/how-to-learn-a-foreign-l...

B-Con 2y ago

This reminds me of the "systems vs goals" mentality, which emphasizes focusing on having a good systematic process for the journey rather than fixating on specific outcomes. Some prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28688643 Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) was a huge proponent of it and he exposed me to the concept in my mid 20s. It heavily resonated with me and fundamentally changed my outlook on several areas of life. This specific framing of Quests vs Goals seems a bit more like a change in framing your perspective, but I see some similar concepts, eg: > You don’t just get the novel started, you become a writer. You don’t just declutter the house, you get your house in order.

throwaway29812 2y ago
> Scott Adams (before he went a bit cuckoo) Apropo of nothing his book "How to Fail at Almost Everything and Still Win Big" was excellent, I remember seeing when he first joined Twitter. I was one of his first few followers, even said "welcome" and he said "thanks". Then he got divorced and angry and red pilled. Happens far too often..

6451937099 2y ago

[dead]

highfrequency 2y ago

I've always found it interesting that when people encounter challenges and roadblocks when playing a game like Dungeons and Dragons, they are energized and sometimes even relieved the game is not too easy. But when encountering setbacks in work the default is to get frustrated. I'm pretty sure it's not the type of challenge that differs. In DnD a lot of the challenges are logistical in nature or some kind of interpersonal conflict. My take is that the main difference is perceived risk / perceived high stakes. In a game you are in a circle of safety, so you don't get as stressed about roadblocks - whereas if you perceive negative consequences for failing to reach a goal in real life, then any obstacle looks like a survival threat and the anxiety about failing distracts from fully engaging with the challenge. As an example outside of work: if you're playing DnD and the DM says: "the bartender gives you a rude look" you are intrigued and curious. If a waiter in real life gives you a rude look, most of our brain's will at least temporarily go into ego threat mode and fall into a default of freezing, leaving or arguing back. We will be distracted, bothered, and generally the opposite of open-minded and curious. My point is not whether these are ideal responses but to note how differently our brains respond in a situation where there is actually minimal risk, but our brain perceives high risk because of outdated programming. Another example in the other direction: people can easily start taking games too seriously and become ego-attached to the goal, and the same brain response occurs. These extreme examples strongly suggest that it is the perceived threat rather than actual threat that drive our responses, and perception can often be very out of whack with reality and inhibit effective problem solving. For most people in most work challenges, the actual survival threat from obstacles is small. Our brains massively overexaggerate it because we evolved in a context where most problems (especially social ones) actually were life-threatening. I would even say that in cases where survival (or your income) is threatened by an obstacle, downregulating the fear/threat response will usually improve your chances of finding a solution. Negative emotions narrow attention, draw us inward and prevent both mental flexibility and engagement with the world, which make solving difficult problems much harder. To summarize: given how much more inherently motivating it is to work on challenges that are similar in nature to the ones we procrastinate on in life, it seems worthwhile to try to downregulate our evolved fear/threat response when encountering obstacles.

jamesgreenleaf 2y ago

al_borland 2y ago

After playing too much Zelda, I had the thought to make a todo app that was organized by Main Story and Side Quests. The Main Story section would be projects, and those bigger more aspersions goals to move the story of life forward. Side Quests would be those little things along the way, that are usually one and done. I ended up realizing building the app would really just be procrastination, and simply make a couple Lists in Apple Reminders for Main Story and Side Quests. Good enough. Functionally, but I guess it’s not much different than Projects and Random, but I find it slightly more assuming.

komali2 2y ago
Some people might still find such an app useful. Framing problems in different ways is sometimes all it takes. A lot of apps could simply be spreadsheets, but it's still a bajillion dollar market.

727564797069706 2y ago

This is such a simple distinction, yet totally transforming and invigorating! I appreciate a lot if people share such insights.

sim7c00 2y ago

this is reworded alan watts. life is like music, its not all about the final chrashing chord, so enjoy the journey. thats with all things, but not everyone flows like that. some people enjoy results and are ok being frustrated getting there. personally, i think that is physically unhealthy. you might have the mental fortitude to push on forever, but physiology is affected by stress, and friction / frustration causes stress. thats hormones and thus kind of unavoidable (but managable again... with the anti hormones.). stress management takes time though, building anti cortisol. so it would be more efficient not to build so much cortisol (enjoy the ride) so you dont need to waste your productivity time building anti cortisol.

mickduprez 2y ago

The power of words! Nothing new here really, it's the old systems/process vs goal story but actually I felt that one word make a cognitive shift, for me at least :)

littke 2y ago

Reminds me of Dream Mapping: https://www.squadformers.com/dream-mapping https://www.squadformers.com/dream-mapping It’s about replacing OKRs with stories and maps.

spikey_sanju 2y ago
Just read it. This is interesting. Definitely, we will be trying this on our team. Thanks!

danjc 2y ago

It's helpful to learn to categorize things as urgent or important. Not many things are both and urgent always masquerades as important.

LoveMortuus 2y ago

This has been said many times, but it is worth repeating from time to time. It's analogous to “Have systems, not goals” or “Build habits, not goals” and I'm sure you can think of many such variations on the words, but at the end they all mean the same. Don't choose a point on the line that is your life, choose a vector.

atoav 2y ago
Just don't fall into the trap that this means you shouldn't have goals. I would phrase it as: The way is more important than the destinations, but destinations are also worth having if you want to continue on the way.
- klabb3 2y ago
  I dislike the term, but something like goals are useful to have and I enjoy them. But to me, they are more like visions of how I would want things to be. While clearly defined goals can be helpful when dealing with other people who frequently move goalposts, for my personal “goals” I find that those narrowly defined milestones are not helpful for motivation, nor a particularly good proxy for what’s really important. Weirdly, I’ve been way, way more consistent with my somewhat loose “vision” than I ever saw in corporate life, where goals would change frequently depending on popular buzzwords, reorgs, new grand poobah hires, etc. That’s made me think of goals more as a coping mechanism for a jittery “inner compass” or lack of direction. But of course, all of these terms have different connotations for different people.
  - chii 2y ago
    exactly. Goals are not what you do. Goals are sort of like desires, or outcomes you want, but you don't do a goal every day. By building up habits and systems and processes, and do them every day, the routine will eventually lead to a goal.
  - atoav 2y ago
    Thst is why I used metaphorical language here. Goals sound very well defined like something from a business plan. And granted, sometimes it is nice to have well defined goals, e.g. when you are in a group or some other situation where having a bit more objectively formulated expectations help. Life coaches would tell you you should not only formulate goals, but also say within which time you want to get there. As you I found this can kill all joy. A vague vision is sometimes better as it can be adjusted to life circumstances. E.g. if you're a musician of course your vision is to make good music of a certain style, but as you are one part of a band within a uncertain environment anything more precise than a vague "move the band forward" would need to be overhauled every other month. But for other

langsoul-com 2y ago

I'd argue a quest can have the same pitfalls of a goal. That is you see it's so far off and do nothing about it on a continuous basis. Process VS goal always depends on the person. If someone has a goal, and everything around them is distracting them from reaching the finish line, the a quest would be irritating. Opposite is true too, a goal might have been the goal to start, but life changed and now they're chasing something that doesn't personally matter any more.

atoav 2y ago
I often get asked by people how I learned to do X, where X is a skill that takes time and dedication, be it designing electronic circuits, playing musical instruments, programming etc. The answer is that you need to enjoy learning, because when you learn a thing most of the time you suck at it and most of the time there is something that you can't do or don't know. The person who is writing books because they like to learn about the universe, humanity and themselves will likely become better at writing books than the person who ticks off "Written a book" on their bucket list. The way I look at it, if you want to become really good it needs to be a quest with a many small goals sprinkled on top. The quest needs to be something you could do literally forever (e.g. play music, write code) and the goals could be single projects, etc. But for me the goals are just a means to do the quest, not the other way around.

hasoleju 2y ago

I like how the name quest emphasizes the process, not the initially desired outcome. When you go on a quest you gain experience and have encounters that might even change your initially desired outcome. Instead of trying to reach an outcome you enjoy an adventure and change the human you are. A quest is a journey where the final destination is not clear in the beginning. But if you are successful, you will be a better version of yourself on the other side of the journey.

jaza 2y ago

Great, it's a quest - I can use coconuts!

anirudhk 2y ago

Process over outcomes; systems over goals; growth mindset over fixed mindset; satisficing over maximizing; professionalism over amateurism; boring fundamentals over flashy tricks; response over reaction; agency over passivity; presence over regret and worry. Unlearning Perfectionism https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/ https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/

klabb3 2y ago
Maybe this is insightful at its core, but “growth” and especially “growth mindset” is the most LinkedIn performance review garbage I’ve ever been force fed, so it’s a bit of a turnoff simply based on how I’ve seen it used in practice.
- halfcat 2y ago
  You’re not wrong that it’s been hijacked as productivity theatre. But it also doesn’t reduce the wildly positive impact of growth mindset. It’s kind of like exercise. It’s a basic thing. People know in a logical sense they should do it. And we feel like we get the benefit by learning about it. But we get zero of the benefit if we don’t do the work, and do it consistently. It’s a “mastery of the basics” situation, where getting yourself to avoid the fixed mindset mental trap, and think in a growth mindset moment to moment, results in a level of effectiveness that almost cannot be explained, only experienced.
marcosdumay 2y ago
The problem is, if you follow that religiously, you'll never achieve anything worthwhile. All of those push you away from finishing, the same way that their opposite do. It's valuable for "unlearning", and I am one of the people that must always be reminded of it. But if you go and "learn" that way outright, it will damage you too.

deanc 2y ago

I'm surprised in the context of this discussion, that nobody has yet brought up James Clear's fantastic book: Atomic Habits [1] - one of the best selling non-fiction books worldwide over the last few years. I read this book over the summer, and it's an incredibly easy to digest breakdown of all the reasons why people fail at their goals, and very simple mind hacks to change the way you approach achieving them through good habits and avoiding bad ones. [1] https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits

haste410 2y ago
Personally I am glad no one mentioned that book. It's an overly long blog post with some anecdotes mixed in to stretch it to book length.
- Multicomp 2y ago
  I preferred Charles Duigg's book the Power of Habit for similar reasons. All the material in Atomic Habits with more meat.
- deanc 2y ago
  What didn’t you like about it?

teddyh 2y ago

A.k.a. “systems vs. goals”: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcKTYvupJw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwcKTYvupJw>

brian_cunnie 2y ago

Thought-provoking piece, but I think it ignores one key item: we naturally gravitate to doing what we love. We don't need to write them down. I never wrote down, "build a dual-stack homelab with a handcrafted firewall and a 10Gbe fiber backbone with multiple VLANs and subnets and two virtualization hosts and a 12TB TrueNAS server, and DNS and Minio and DHCP and k8s." Of the hundreds of hours I spent on my homelab, I don't think I ever wrote down a "quest" or "goal". Similarly, I love swimming in the open cold water, but I never wrote down, "Swim from Alcatraz twice". It wasn't necessary. It happened organically.

riehwvfbk 2y ago
But notice that you cherry-picked accomplishments that sound impressive. You didn't say "I watched 10 seasons of The Office", "I wasted over 8000 hours on HN", or "I impulse-bought a shed full of tools I never use", it happened organically!
- brian_cunnie 2y ago
  Good point! I've also played almost a year's worth of World of Warcraft — it happened organically!

Venkatesh10 2y ago

I feel like this is one of those gamified ways, we can tell our brain to work things on without burning out. But there will be a limit on how efficient we can go without getting bored or tired about.

MisterBastahrd 2y ago

Depends on how your brain is wired, I guess. Know what happens if I go on a quest instead of pursuing a goal? I end up using every available moment of time to plan said quest. So I don't do quests. I have goals. As long as I'm moving forward, it doesn't matter what specific route I take.

veunes 2y ago

I think it all depends on the individual. Some people thrive with a quest mentality, while others prefer setting goals. Some live by analyzing their days using a SWOT system and this push them forward. Others are used to setting one big goal and like a dream.

u32480932048 2y ago

As a professional procrastinator, even the title makes immediate sense, and has already helped me reframe my to-do list. I'll read the rest of it ...later.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

NotAnOtter 2y ago

"It's the journey not the destination" written pedantically as though it's audience could only find a central loci of control by superimposing their life into Lord of the Rings

gbro3n 2y ago

It's about the journey, not the destination ...

notenough 2y ago

For around 3 years, I was living in a Chaos where I wasn't paying attention to anything around, I was just working aimlessly and not thinking rationally if I'm improving or anything for that matter and my days were passing one after another, I can't remember the jump between 26 to 29 properly, if I did anything significantly. Long story short I joined a new start up last April as a Senior Dev and my productive shot up in terms of work getting done, then I started being mindful of what I'm doing weekly and retrospecting actively about work, eventually few months back while I realized that I haven't filed my taxes yet and I'm in better place in terms of work but anything personally I've no "goals" or things to be excited about. So one fine Sunday, I made a google doc for things that I need to do and I also lacked clarity about how my credit card charges work, Like I know I can pay a minimum but what really happens when I keep paying minimum , so I started noting down things that I would like to understand further in that google doc as a checklist, this is my weekend activity, I denote my weekdays for work and one weekend I dedicate to the things in the Doc. It brought a bit of sanity to life. So calling it either a Quest or Goal doesn't matter , what you need is a process that works for you . Now in 8-10 weeks I'm aware about : 1. How my credit card charges work, what reward it has, Also I'm approaching zero debt , I can't pay 3.5% every month. 2. I understand what happens if I use my credit card/ debit card in a foreign country, why I should a particular type of forex Card . Also , I've noted all this learnings in the same doc because I can't really retain my knowledge after over a year but if I keep seeing it , it might help a bit . (Also, I'm trying to actual be involved in conversations here , instead of lurking , so that I can actual form my own opinions )

kevinslin 2y ago

snarky part of me wants to say that X not Y is a trope that has been over used by people trying to peddle their own thing that is just a thin veneer of what was there before but it’s easy to be a pessimist and pull down other work i agree that goals are hard and in some sense, set people up to fail by making the target some ephemeral thing in the distance maybe reframing it as a quest can help it’s something that can be hard it can change you the outcome might be different from what you intended by all means. do quests. not goals. will go back to nike on this one. just do it