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At the risk of posting a reflexive comment, what should we be doing here? It seems like everything has unintended consequences (not on a cost-benefit basis): -

At the risk of posting a reflexive comment, what should we be doing here? It seems like everything has unintended consequences (not on a cost-benefit basis): - Minority affinity groups pull people from majority groups and decrease integration. - Anti-discrimination/sexism/etc. movements often add social barriers to interactions (e.g. things I do within my identity group would be misperceived if done across) - Affirmative action makes minorities feel like they don't deserve to be there (and often leads to resentment and other consequences) Progress in the past few decades has been limited, so it seems like we're taking the wrong approach, but I'm don't have a better approach to propose. Green fields, blue sky, what should we be doing to resolve the historical issues we have around sex, race, socioeconomic status, etc.? I think looking to countries which made better progress might be helpful....

deleted 2y ago
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next_xibalba 2y ago
I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields. It’s a negative correlation. I often wonder if we should just be focused on maximizing individual freedom and let the chips fall where they may. This will result in some professions with extreme sex imbalance, and we should accept that outcome.
- ivan_gammel 2y ago
  It is important to understand the reasons for that negative correlation. If you do, your conclusions would be quite the opposite - sex imbalance is not something to accept, but rather to fix. Many authoritarian regimes are expanding their economic base by enabling women to pursue professional careers. In some developed countries there’s no such pressure, so they are simply stuck in the past. They are not doing better because women are enslaved in the kitchen or take only stereotypical jobs. It’s just ideological and/or religious trap.
  - gspencley 2y ago
    > It is important to understand the reasons for that negative correlation. Agreed 100% > If you do, your conclusions would be quite the opposite This is where you lose me. Your statement here suggests the following: 1. That you know, for a conclusive fact, what those reasons are 2. That the reasons suggest something ominous Furthermore, you haven't explained what you consider to be the reasons, let alone offered explanation or citations that would support why you think those are the particular reasons. You implied that the reasons are sexism and discrimination, but you left that quite open for interpretation. Moving on, you then suggest that minority groups that do not pursue careers in STEM are "stuck in the past." I have two daughters who are in their early, going on mid twenties. My youngest daughter is one of the smartest and brightest people that I have ever met. Obviously I'm biased, but this is a kid that found ways to get herself into all sorts of trouble as a toddler by solving problems that I would have thought no toddler was capable of. In her late teens she had no idea what she wanted to do, but she expressed some interest in learning to code. Being a software engineer myself, I gave her all of the support and resources that I could. I offered to teach her myself. I bought her Udemy courses and books. I invited her to sit with me at work to see what what life as a coder is like. I made it as accessible for her as possible. What has she decided to do with her life? She works in a professional kitchen and is on the career path to becoming a chef and possibly a restauranteur. People with your attitude would snub your nose at her life choices, look down at what she's passionate about and claim that she is a 'slave' living in the 'past' because she's currently working in a low-paid service industry. You would then blame sexism or classism despite the fact that she was raised in a progressive, well to do family that gave her every opportunity to succeed at whatever she chose to do. Of course, one anectode does not refute statistics. But you have not offered statistics. You came out with assumptions, accusations and a snobbish attitude towards people who would make personal life choices that you don't understand or approve of. The beautiful thing about freedom, however, is that no one needs your approval or understanding.
    - rysertio 2y ago
      Both boys and girls from Asian countries tend to be more interested in STEM.
- cultofmetatron 2y ago
  > I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields. This lines up with my experiences as well. I know plenty of eastern european women, asians and latinas working as programmers. on top of that I've talked to many that didn't know how to code but would ask me to teach them as soon as they heard I was a programmer. yet I have met only a small handful of white women from america that are software engineers. furthermore, the ones that aren't engineers (in general) seem more dismissive of my line of work as if its somehow beneath them.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    If those folks from outside of the USA had been from economically prosperous backgrounds, they too would try to become nurses or caregivers instead of programmers. Gender parity in STEM is a sign of the economic desperation of a countries people. This is a sociological fact which ruffles feathers when it’s stated out loud.
    - callalex 2y ago
      Do you have any citations to back up this “fact”?
      - rsanek 2y ago
        take a look at the gender breakdowns for employment in the Nordics. probably the best social support structures / 'equality' in the world, and yet the ratios are among the most extreme anywhere. when you're taken care of, you do what you like. when you have an economic need, you'll take the job that pays and will pull you out of poverty, even if you don't care for it.
        ivan_gammel 2y ago
        This argument is pretty common, but blaming the victim is wrong. It is not like Nordics solved the problem but women still choose different jobs. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of-working-in-the-worlds-most-equal-countries https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of...
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >This will result in some professions with extreme sex imbalance, and we should accept that outcome. We do accept it, for the most part. I don't see many Men-as-Teachers or Men-in-Nursing advocacy groups.
  - cultofmetatron 2y ago
    >or Men-in-Nursing advocacy groups. thats been changing. mostly because there are more obese people now so you need male nurses to help them move around.
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      Ozempic solves this problem in 10 years.
  - KittenInABox 2y ago
    There's literally an American Association of Men In Nursing. Just googling "male teachers" gives me a ton of articles about the importance of hiring more men in teaching. Apparently NYC recently announced a huge investment into hiring more black/latino men in teaching or something? I'm always suspicious of "you don't see much of x" in spaces where x isn't the demographic being catered to. This isn't Nursing News or Teacher News, not to say that Nurses and Teachers can't also be hackers, technologists, etc. but this is clearly not a space oriented towards all things teaching or nursing, so questioning community advocacy within their communities strikes me as the wrong place.
  - goalonetwo 2y ago
    That's because their woman advocacy is really a not-so-hidden lobby to have woman making more money under the pretense of equal representation in all jobs.
  - simplicio 2y ago
    There's a lot of Men-in-Teaching advocacy, in part because its thought having male teachers tends to be beneficial for male students[1]. I think stuff like that is the main reason to be worried about gender imbalances. A 40-60 imbalance probably isn't a big deal, but once you get to like, 90-10 or worse, as is the case with early education, you start to get a bunch of secondary social problems. Kids who associate learning as a woman only thing, or the culture around engineering or software becoming "boys clubs" that become uncomfortable for the women who do want to work in those fields https://www.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/teacher-education-programs/nyc-men-teach/ https://www.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/teacher-edu...
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  The idea that social sciences can pinpoint a single cause on something as full of confounding factors as this... it's extremely arrogant. But then, the same applies to the people that immediately explain it as discrimination.
ramesh31 2y ago
>Minority affinity groups pull people from majority groups and decrease integration. Integration === subjugation for minorities >Anti-discrimination/sexism/etc. movements often add social barriers to interactions (e.g. things I do within my identity group would be misperceived if done across) Indeed that's the point. You should be more mindful of things you do and say in this context. >Affirmative action makes minorities feel like they don't deserve to be there (and often leads to resentment and other consequences) And it pays their rent and provides social mobility for themselves and their families. We can get over the imposter syndrome; everyone has it for one reason or another. We can't get over being unemployed due to systemic biases. Ultimately yes, for the prevailing group, DEI efforts will always feel like a personal attack. Levelling the playing field has that effect.
- kjhfd9gh9ut 2y ago
  [dead]
jmull 2y ago
Your points draw the tension between two "competing" points. But none of these are black and white. There's a wide middle ground between each one... people can belong to multiple groups. A-holes will take any opportunity to be a-holes, but anti-discrimination doesn't have to be exclusionary and punitive. Affirmative action can work more at the opportunity level, not the handout level.
commandlinefan 2y ago
> Affirmative action makes minorities feel like they don't deserve to be there Does it? I see a lot of affirmative action victims saying that it _ought_ to make them feel that way, but I never hear that from affirmative action recipients.
- influx 2y ago
  You’ve never heard anyone in those groups have imposter syndrome? It’s very common.
  - digging 2y ago
    Isn't imposter syndrome just... pretty common in any STEM field? Maybe especially in anyone who isn't a neurotypical cishet white man.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      You don't think affirmative action has anything to do with that? Affirmative action means you and everyone else there knows you had to pass a lower bar, of course that makes impostor syndrome worse.
      - lins1909 2y ago
        > Affirmative action means you and everyone else there knows you had to pass a lower bar, of course that makes impostor syndrome worse. No, it doesn't. But if that makes you feel better, I hope you continue telling yourself that.
        commandlinefan 2y ago
        Wait, what? That's literally the definition.
        Larrikin 2y ago
samatman 2y ago
To tackle your question somewhat obliquely: 67% of veterinarians in the US are women, according to this link. https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/reports-statistics/market-research-statistics-us-veterinarians https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/reports-statistics/mark... The imbalance is even more acute than that, because the profession has been trending towards a women-dominated workforce for several decades. There aren't as many veterinarians as there are software developers, but it's a well-paying job. Does this situation strike you as one which needs correcting? I'm fine with it, personally.
- 39896880 2y ago
  I suspect you are fine with it for the same reason I am:you understand that women historically were kept out of the workforce.
deleted 2y ago
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deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
nradov 2y ago
Before selecting an approach we would first have to agree on the goal. What would success look like in a few decades?
jrflowers 2y ago
> Anti-discrimination/sexism/etc. movements often add social barriers to interactions (e.g. things I do within my identity group would be misperceived if done across) Can you give a specific example of a thing you do in your identity group that could be misperceived if done across your identity group
- grobbyy 2y ago
  Gender and physical contact. I am at close to zero rush within group (creepiness, leading on, sexual harassment, etc.). Same type of casual physical contact across gender groups, and it's a trip to HR or a cancellation. A lot of language takes on different making across cultures, and there are literally textbooks about how white casual language is perceived as disrespectful in many African American cultures. The reverse is casual African American behavior incorrectly perceived as aggressive in white culture. I like looking at this in international studies since there is not the baseline baggage of racism or sexism, and Meyer is a good study.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

next_xibalba 2y ago

I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields. It’s a negative correlation. I often wonder if we should just be focused on maximizing individual freedom and let the chips fall where they may. This will result in some professions with extreme sex imbalance, and we should accept that outcome.

ivan_gammel 2y ago
It is important to understand the reasons for that negative correlation. If you do, your conclusions would be quite the opposite - sex imbalance is not something to accept, but rather to fix. Many authoritarian regimes are expanding their economic base by enabling women to pursue professional careers. In some developed countries there’s no such pressure, so they are simply stuck in the past. They are not doing better because women are enslaved in the kitchen or take only stereotypical jobs. It’s just ideological and/or religious trap.
- gspencley 2y ago
  > It is important to understand the reasons for that negative correlation. Agreed 100% > If you do, your conclusions would be quite the opposite This is where you lose me. Your statement here suggests the following: 1. That you know, for a conclusive fact, what those reasons are 2. That the reasons suggest something ominous Furthermore, you haven't explained what you consider to be the reasons, let alone offered explanation or citations that would support why you think those are the particular reasons. You implied that the reasons are sexism and discrimination, but you left that quite open for interpretation. Moving on, you then suggest that minority groups that do not pursue careers in STEM are "stuck in the past." I have two daughters who are in their early, going on mid twenties. My youngest daughter is one of the smartest and brightest people that I have ever met. Obviously I'm biased, but this is a kid that found ways to get herself into all sorts of trouble as a toddler by solving problems that I would have thought no toddler was capable of. In her late teens she had no idea what she wanted to do, but she expressed some interest in learning to code. Being a software engineer myself, I gave her all of the support and resources that I could. I offered to teach her myself. I bought her Udemy courses and books. I invited her to sit with me at work to see what what life as a coder is like. I made it as accessible for her as possible. What has she decided to do with her life? She works in a professional kitchen and is on the career path to becoming a chef and possibly a restauranteur. People with your attitude would snub your nose at her life choices, look down at what she's passionate about and claim that she is a 'slave' living in the 'past' because she's currently working in a low-paid service industry. You would then blame sexism or classism despite the fact that she was raised in a progressive, well to do family that gave her every opportunity to succeed at whatever she chose to do. Of course, one anectode does not refute statistics. But you have not offered statistics. You came out with assumptions, accusations and a snobbish attitude towards people who would make personal life choices that you don't understand or approve of. The beautiful thing about freedom, however, is that no one needs your approval or understanding.
  - rysertio 2y ago
    Both boys and girls from Asian countries tend to be more interested in STEM.
cultofmetatron 2y ago
> I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields. This lines up with my experiences as well. I know plenty of eastern european women, asians and latinas working as programmers. on top of that I've talked to many that didn't know how to code but would ask me to teach them as soon as they heard I was a programmer. yet I have met only a small handful of white women from america that are software engineers. furthermore, the ones that aren't engineers (in general) seem more dismissive of my line of work as if its somehow beneath them.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  If those folks from outside of the USA had been from economically prosperous backgrounds, they too would try to become nurses or caregivers instead of programmers. Gender parity in STEM is a sign of the economic desperation of a countries people. This is a sociological fact which ruffles feathers when it’s stated out loud.
  - callalex 2y ago
    Do you have any citations to back up this “fact”?
    - rsanek 2y ago
      take a look at the gender breakdowns for employment in the Nordics. probably the best social support structures / 'equality' in the world, and yet the ratios are among the most extreme anywhere. when you're taken care of, you do what you like. when you have an economic need, you'll take the job that pays and will pull you out of poverty, even if you don't care for it.
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        This argument is pretty common, but blaming the victim is wrong. It is not like Nordics solved the problem but women still choose different jobs. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of-working-in-the-worlds-most-equal-countries https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of...
itsoktocry 2y ago
>This will result in some professions with extreme sex imbalance, and we should accept that outcome. We do accept it, for the most part. I don't see many Men-as-Teachers or Men-in-Nursing advocacy groups.
- cultofmetatron 2y ago
  >or Men-in-Nursing advocacy groups. thats been changing. mostly because there are more obese people now so you need male nurses to help them move around.
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    Ozempic solves this problem in 10 years.
- KittenInABox 2y ago
  There's literally an American Association of Men In Nursing. Just googling "male teachers" gives me a ton of articles about the importance of hiring more men in teaching. Apparently NYC recently announced a huge investment into hiring more black/latino men in teaching or something? I'm always suspicious of "you don't see much of x" in spaces where x isn't the demographic being catered to. This isn't Nursing News or Teacher News, not to say that Nurses and Teachers can't also be hackers, technologists, etc. but this is clearly not a space oriented towards all things teaching or nursing, so questioning community advocacy within their communities strikes me as the wrong place.
- goalonetwo 2y ago
  That's because their woman advocacy is really a not-so-hidden lobby to have woman making more money under the pretense of equal representation in all jobs.
- simplicio 2y ago
  There's a lot of Men-in-Teaching advocacy, in part because its thought having male teachers tends to be beneficial for male students[1]. I think stuff like that is the main reason to be worried about gender imbalances. A 40-60 imbalance probably isn't a big deal, but once you get to like, 90-10 or worse, as is the case with early education, you start to get a bunch of secondary social problems. Kids who associate learning as a woman only thing, or the culture around engineering or software becoming "boys clubs" that become uncomfortable for the women who do want to work in those fields https://www.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/teacher-education-programs/nyc-men-teach/ https://www.cuny.edu/academics/academic-programs/teacher-edu...
marcosdumay 2y ago
The idea that social sciences can pinpoint a single cause on something as full of confounding factors as this... it's extremely arrogant. But then, the same applies to the people that immediately explain it as discrimination.

ramesh31 2y ago

>Minority affinity groups pull people from majority groups and decrease integration. Integration === subjugation for minorities >Anti-discrimination/sexism/etc. movements often add social barriers to interactions (e.g. things I do within my identity group would be misperceived if done across) Indeed that's the point. You should be more mindful of things you do and say in this context. >Affirmative action makes minorities feel like they don't deserve to be there (and often leads to resentment and other consequences) And it pays their rent and provides social mobility for themselves and their families. We can get over the imposter syndrome; everyone has it for one reason or another. We can't get over being unemployed due to systemic biases. Ultimately yes, for the prevailing group, DEI efforts will always feel like a personal attack. Levelling the playing field has that effect.

kjhfd9gh9ut 2y ago
[dead]

jmull 2y ago

Your points draw the tension between two "competing" points. But none of these are black and white. There's a wide middle ground between each one... people can belong to multiple groups. A-holes will take any opportunity to be a-holes, but anti-discrimination doesn't have to be exclusionary and punitive. Affirmative action can work more at the opportunity level, not the handout level.

commandlinefan 2y ago

> Affirmative action makes minorities feel like they don't deserve to be there Does it? I see a lot of affirmative action victims saying that it _ought_ to make them feel that way, but I never hear that from affirmative action recipients.

influx 2y ago
You’ve never heard anyone in those groups have imposter syndrome? It’s very common.
- digging 2y ago
  Isn't imposter syndrome just... pretty common in any STEM field? Maybe especially in anyone who isn't a neurotypical cishet white man.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    You don't think affirmative action has anything to do with that? Affirmative action means you and everyone else there knows you had to pass a lower bar, of course that makes impostor syndrome worse.
    - lins1909 2y ago
      > Affirmative action means you and everyone else there knows you had to pass a lower bar, of course that makes impostor syndrome worse. No, it doesn't. But if that makes you feel better, I hope you continue telling yourself that.
      - commandlinefan 2y ago
        Wait, what? That's literally the definition.
        Larrikin 2y ago

samatman 2y ago

To tackle your question somewhat obliquely: 67% of veterinarians in the US are women, according to this link. https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/reports-statistics/market-research-statistics-us-veterinarians https://www.avma.org/resources-tools/reports-statistics/mark... The imbalance is even more acute than that, because the profession has been trending towards a women-dominated workforce for several decades. There aren't as many veterinarians as there are software developers, but it's a well-paying job. Does this situation strike you as one which needs correcting? I'm fine with it, personally.

39896880 2y ago
I suspect you are fine with it for the same reason I am:you understand that women historically were kept out of the workforce.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

nradov 2y ago

Before selecting an approach we would first have to agree on the goal. What would success look like in a few decades?

jrflowers 2y ago

> Anti-discrimination/sexism/etc. movements often add social barriers to interactions (e.g. things I do within my identity group would be misperceived if done across) Can you give a specific example of a thing you do in your identity group that could be misperceived if done across your identity group

grobbyy 2y ago
Gender and physical contact. I am at close to zero rush within group (creepiness, leading on, sexual harassment, etc.). Same type of casual physical contact across gender groups, and it's a trip to HR or a cancellation. A lot of language takes on different making across cultures, and there are literally textbooks about how white casual language is perceived as disrespectful in many African American cultures. The reverse is casual African American behavior incorrectly perceived as aggressive in white culture. I like looking at this in international studies since there is not the baseline baggage of racism or sexism, and Meyer is a good study.