22 ms·

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system

Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. You have to wait for sea shipping, add $30/kwh if you want to buy it in the US today. From the same suppliers sodium batteries are currently $130/kwh and about 26% less efficient in the same form factor. I look forward to this changing. Due to rising power costs I moved one of my homes completely to solar and battery (lifepo4) and haven't had any problems. I can't imagine ever going back to the power company. Panels have gotten to the point of being ridiculously cheap. I have a lot of space. I purchased pallets of used panels for more or less the cost of transportation ($34 per panel 270w). They produce about 85% of their nominal rating. I mention this because other comments mention costs that are much much higher.

reaperman 2y ago
> Due to rising power costs I moved one of my homes completely to solar and battery Were you able to disconnect that home from the grid? Most places you're required to maintain a grid connection unless the home is in an exceptionally remote location. While pricing tends to be usage-based, true costs tend to be dominated by the capital expense of building base-load capacity for the few days your home might need to run fully on grid power. So as long as you're connected to the grid, you're still forcing the utility to spend about the same amount of money even if you only use grid power a few days out of the year.
- duffpkg 2y ago
  Yes. Totally disconnected, zero power bill. That home is in a jurisdiction where that is permissible.
  - ManuelKiessling 2y ago
    How do you get through winter? I’m asking in good faith, I‘m using a PV installation myself and cannot see how I could realistically get off the grid.
    - dgacmu 2y ago
      Over provision the panels by a good margin and have them at a more southerly angle (for northern hemisphere). You can play around on nrel pvwatts to see what configuration produces the most even expected monthly output: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php Most solar charge controllers allow a certain amount of PV overprovisioning.
      - kolinko 2y ago
        In central/northern Europe in january solar goves 10% of the output of summer, and you need 3-4x power to heat compared to cooling down in summer.
        eichin 2y ago
        It is often surprising that most of the US is south of most of Europe (the common reference is that Chicago and Rome are both 42N. The jet stream complicates the effect on overall climate, but latitude is pretty much the only thing that matters for solar power.)
        gpm 2y ago
        Solar panels are mildly more efficient when colder, the same latitude in an area with similar cloud cover in north America is probably generally slightly better for solar than Europe because it is colder, not sure if it would ever be more than a rounding error though.
        Scoundreller 2y ago
        I’ve been in northern France for a couple weeks in a January and didn’t see the sun once… Not really a thing in Toronto.
        maigret 2y ago
        Solar panels don’t need sunshine they need light.
  - thrtythreeforty 2y ago
    In jurisdictions where that's not legal, can you realistically maintain a connection for just the cost of the customer fee and draw no other power? Or are there typically other roadblocks to installing solar in such places?
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - chickenbig 2y ago
    > Totally disconnected, zero power bill. Great job! Over the last half a year my feelings about rooftop grid-connected solar (net energy metering, feed in tariff which are subsidised by the electricity bills of others) have changed somewhat, but going off-grid you've put in the investment to be energy independent.
GaggiX 2y ago
>I purchased pallets of used panels for more or less the cost of transportation ($34 per panel 270w) For comparison, I've seen pallets of new 24 410w panels at 58€ per panel (transportation included), hopefully I'll see similar deals in the future when I will ready to jump into solar. Edit: I'm mostly worried because I don't know how sustainable the industry is when you can buy solar panels at such dirt cheap prices.
- davedx 2y ago
  It’s not sustainable. Solar panel producers are going to be in big trouble in 8-10 years I think.
  - oezi 2y ago
    In the 8 to 10 years panels will be even cheaper. Probably half of today. The price trajectory is still falling.
    - GaggiX 2y ago
      >Probably half of today. A 410W solar panel at 29€? I really doubt that honestly. Cheaper than plywood.
      - Retric 2y ago
        Efficiency going up is one way to reduce instillation costs which grid scale solar really cares about. 470W + even cheaper inverters seems likely.
      - DaoVeles 2y ago
        This is not shade on the original comment. But I do find it funny when economists that extrapolate out to infinity. Comely divorced from the real world materials and ecology.
      - oezi 2y ago
        Economies of scale baby. Another 10x more in production another 30% less in price.
pineaux 2y ago
How is this cheap? How much did you pay for the whole package?
- duffpkg 2y ago
  That does not include the costs for inverters and other electrical system parts. I am not endorsing these vendors but I am happy with the result. My system paid for itself in less than 18 months. I have many years of experience buying from China in industry. I purchased batteries from Docan Power and BMS/battery housings from EEL Battery. My inverters are from EG4 and UL listed. You can see current pricing on their respective websites. I would say there is some learning curve for a complete novice. The diysolarforum.com is a good vendor neutral and honest resource for information.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  > How is this cheap? It's $900 + inverters for 10 kWh. A Tesla Powerwall 2 (14 kWh) is $10k (inverter included). I doubt the inverters cost more than $1k.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Why tesla charges 5x for their Powerwall? I know their software is excellent, but I haven’t seen prices like that anywhere.
- specialist 2y ago
  My guess: to throttle demand. Installers are generally in short supply and huge demand. So why not charge a premium?
- rootusrootus 2y ago
  Because there's value in a brand name, they are using more expensive batteries (or they were, I think just recently they started shipping LFP), and you're paying for the plug-and-play convenience. Buying cells from CATL, adding a BMS, and putting all in a case is easy but still not trivial. Definitely not plug and play. You can absolutely get dirt cheap LFPs (like other people, I hang out on diysolarforum.com too), but it is not a competitor with the Powerwall unless you want something to tinker with or are simply too budget constrained to buy the brand name product.
  - dzhiurgis 2y ago
    I think OP mentioned battery rack (not cells) with BMS, not pure cells.
blacksmith_tb 2y ago
Sounds great, but are there actual businesses who will come to your home and do an install, or do you need to to become a mad-scientist electrician and DIY? I got quotes on getting an LG system a few years ago and it was 4X these prices (also for me a problem is that my 'ancient' panels from 2013 use a single inverter instead of microinverters, so if I touch the system I have to replace it all). I keep hoping there will be a bunch of small businesses electrifying everything, I'd love to see - good, practical, safe - EV conversions driving around too, but it just doesn't seem to be materializing.
- duffpkg 2y ago
  All of the quotes and interactions I had with the local solar installers were reminiscent of the used car lot if not outright fraud. I was able to do what was permissible myself and a regular licensed electrician did the rest. The equipment is UL listed. There was some learning curve but I found the diysolarforum.com to be a pretty good resource to learn what I didn't know. I ran the whole setup standalone for about 6 months before switching the house over to it. The only problem that happened was a loose battery cable connection which the BMS and inverter alerted to and handled correctly.
  - GaggiX 2y ago
    What voltage are you running your solar strings at? I was wondering what would happen if the loose cable was a cable from the solar panels instead of the low voltage battery.
    - duffpkg 2y ago
      The panel strings are at ~500v so there are safety, fusing and grounding considerations. Pretty common electrical equipment and cable is rated for use at 600v. There are special locking water resistant connectors for solar panels called MC4.
      - GaggiX 2y ago
        Are the hybrid inverters you are using be able to detect arc faults (in series) from the strings? Running 500V DC is probably by far the most dangerous thing in your setup, fortunately your solar panels are mounted on the groud.
kkfx 2y ago
Well, here, France, LFP batteries now cost MUCH MORE than just three years ago (final customer price) and... ~1000€ per kWh, while just 3 years ago they was a bit less than 700€ per kWh, the battery alone (with BMS etc) but we also need an inverter witch as well is not much more expensive and I talk about self-assembled systems, here legal, but not legal in large slice of the EU, because retail price of a complete installed system by some p.v. companies are so high that there is no economical reason to install them. My system is 5kWp/8kWh @11.500€ three years ago, it would be now a bit different (400V batteries instead of 48V and a hybrid inverter instead of a p.v. string inverter AC coupled with a battery inverter) @~ the same price due to a single inverter and slightly cheaper p.v. modules (@~100€ for a 415Wp). If done by third parties the cheapest proposal back than was ~30.000€. At this prices given current electricity prices and local grid stability it's a nonsense, it's even cheaper a diesel generator. I know prices in China are FAR lowers, and I've read also on far lower Thailand prices, but compared to local cost of life I can't quantify how much.
- callmemclovin 2y ago
  Well with the DIY route that's not a problem - nkon.nl is shipping to France as well, I guess? So there you can get EVE 280 Ah cells for about 100 €/kWh: https://www.nkon.nl/fr/rechargeable/lifepo4/prismatisch/eve-lf280-prismatic-280ah-280a-lifepo4.html https://www.nkon.nl/fr/rechargeable/lifepo4/prismatisch/eve-...
  - kkfx 2y ago
    Unfortunately DIY is limited to what is certified in France, Victron MultiPlus are certified all, Quattro so far are not, the sole battery from this shop allowed for a grid-connected system are the Pylontech. Still MUCH cheaper than what I've found from French shops anyway so a big thanks :-)
- oulipo 2y ago
  This is why at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)
MichaelNolan 2y ago
When you say $89/kwh, are you talking about just cells, or assembled packs? I’m just about to buy a 5kw Lifepo4 server rack battery from EG4 for a diy project. It’s closer to $220/kwh This is what I’m planning to buy, but you know something better I’d love to take a look. https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48...
- duffpkg 2y ago
  It would be for the completed battery units with BMS. You would have to install the batteries into the battery cases. It is a bit tedious but it was otherwise straightforward. The batteries are extremely heavy. I have always had good experiences with signature solar. My inverters are EG4 and I am very happy with their product after trying A LOT of others. I think the primary reasons for the price difference is that you are purchasing US inventory (it's already here), it's preassembled and warrantied as a unit, they provide pretty decent support and their battery packs use 100ah cells instead of 280ah+ cells. So you are buying ~3x as many BMSs, connecting cable ($$$$) and cases for the same power. Their rackable units are not light but can be moved by a capable person without too much fuss. A fully loaded 280ah unit in it's case is over 250lb so you really need a lift cart or such. The 280ah units and now maybe 320ah are more economical.
- cyberax 2y ago
  Do you know if these batteries be used as a replacement for batteries of a lead-acid UPS? I have a Tripp-Lite rack-mount UPS with an extension battery, but its battery has degraded and it can only sustain my computing load for 3-4 hours. It'd be great to replace it with an LFP battery.
  - rini17 2y ago
    I have seen Na-ion replacements for lead-acid, the chemistry is forgiving enough for that. No idea how good are they.
  - duffpkg 2y ago
    For that low a power need Anker and some others make ready to go units you can buy off of amazon that are pretty reasonable.
oezi 2y ago
Current European/German prices for home storage of 2-10kwh are at 400-500 EUR per kwh. https://geizhals.de/?cat=bmseswresp&sort=t&hloc=at&hloc=de&v=e&pg=1 https://geizhals.de/?cat=bmseswresp&sort=t&hloc=at&hloc=de&v...
- moffkalast 2y ago
  So... about 30k for 60kwh to cover 30kwh daily use with solar charging, and probably another 10k for installation. Hmm yes super cheap, might impulse buy later.
  - oezi 2y ago
    Unlikely that you need more than 10kwh. You just want to cover morning and evening electricity consumption. During the day you recharge and consume directly.
    - iamthemonster 2y ago
      Absolutely agree - I think people fall into a major fallacy with sizing their battery systems. Their power consumption probability* distribution is skewed, and they think their battery needs to be sized for 99% or 100% of their daily consumptions. This gives a drastically oversized battery. Instead, a simple approach is to download the daily power consumption for a year and size the battery for about your 80th-90th percentile consumption. You tend to find the sizing is not that sensitive to whether you go for 80th or 90th percentile, and in any case the batteries come in standard sizes. If you've sized your battery system economically, it should be empty a good proportion of the time, but that just doesn't "feel right" to consumers. * Yes I mean frequency not probability but I didn't want to cause confusion with electrical frequency
      - mapt 2y ago
        Maintaining reliable access to off grid electricity and going net zero are very different applications requiring very different expenditures. Both are valid choices, but going net zero relies on a great deal of grid infrastructure investment and maintenance, and the understanding is that utilities in high home solar areas will rapidly de-emphasize per-kwh pricing in favor of per-month access pricing.
pshirshov 2y ago
> $89/kwh shipped/duty paid Sorry what? Currently I'm happy to buy 5 kWh units for €1300.
Aurornis 2y ago
I’ve followed the super cheap Chinese battery options for a while. It’s amazing how cheap they can be, but at the same time the number of early failure stories is alarmingly high. Getting a warranty exchange is hit or miss. It feels a lot like gambling. You might get one that works for a thousand cycles without issues. You might get one that fails after a week. You might be able to get a warranty replacement, or you might spend hours every week trying to make progress on a warranty claim without any luck. You’re right that there’s a lot of opportunity if you’re willing to buy used panels, Chinese batteries, and do all of your own work. However, the cost of equipment is falling while the costs of labor are rising, which is why professionally installed systems are still expensive.
- duffpkg 2y ago
  There is a lot of information on this on the diysolarforum.com but if you purchase name brand cells, CATL/EVE from a good supplier these are the same ones used by all industry. They have a very good track record. I do not advocate buying from any random seller on aliexpress. There are not any mass market non-chinese batteries available for sale. Virtually all solar equipment of any fashion is chinese made.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    That’s the forum I followed. The failures often came from BMS or other parts, too. There’s a lot of focus on the cells, but people are buying whole packs with a BMS.
    - h0l0cube 2y ago
      Then that’s more the issue with the BMS rather than the cells
      - samatman 2y ago
        Problems with the BMS can become problems with the cells very quickly.
ValentineC 2y ago
> Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. I'm probably not the only one wondering: does ordering from these Chinese suppliers require reaching out to them over email? I looked at both websites, and while Seplos asks to write in, CATL doesn't even have battery listings or sales contact information. I'd love to order LiFePo4 batteries to put in some old UPSes of mine.
- jjeaff 2y ago
  you can order through Alibaba, but there are so many suppliers and not all are reputable, so it's a good idea to search around on some of the solar forums for recommendations.
- callmemclovin 2y ago
  Yeah I think if you want to order from CATL directly, your chances for a reply are better if your order is worth some billions :-) EVE cells are very famous in the DIY scene, you can get them via Alibaba/Aliexpress, or if you're in Europe from nkon.nl, they have a very good reputation.
hippich 2y ago
Can you share places the I can get 1kwh if batteries for 89/kw shipped? I am waiting for a 14kw diy build set at 122/kw, that's the best I could find on Alibaba
luke541 2y ago
89$/kWh seems way too low. If I'm mistaken please point out where I could buy them cause I'll gladly buy some. On well known Chinese market places the price is 5x to 10x that (I live in Europe)
tarasglek 2y ago
What's a good cheap invertor vendor from china these days? We are looking at ordering a lot of these systems in Ukraine to deal with russian attacks on power grid

reaperman 2y ago

> Due to rising power costs I moved one of my homes completely to solar and battery Were you able to disconnect that home from the grid? Most places you're required to maintain a grid connection unless the home is in an exceptionally remote location. While pricing tends to be usage-based, true costs tend to be dominated by the capital expense of building base-load capacity for the few days your home might need to run fully on grid power. So as long as you're connected to the grid, you're still forcing the utility to spend about the same amount of money even if you only use grid power a few days out of the year.

duffpkg 2y ago
Yes. Totally disconnected, zero power bill. That home is in a jurisdiction where that is permissible.
- ManuelKiessling 2y ago
  How do you get through winter? I’m asking in good faith, I‘m using a PV installation myself and cannot see how I could realistically get off the grid.
  - dgacmu 2y ago
    Over provision the panels by a good margin and have them at a more southerly angle (for northern hemisphere). You can play around on nrel pvwatts to see what configuration produces the most even expected monthly output: https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php https://pvwatts.nrel.gov/pvwatts.php Most solar charge controllers allow a certain amount of PV overprovisioning.
    - kolinko 2y ago
      In central/northern Europe in january solar goves 10% of the output of summer, and you need 3-4x power to heat compared to cooling down in summer.
      - eichin 2y ago
        It is often surprising that most of the US is south of most of Europe (the common reference is that Chicago and Rome are both 42N. The jet stream complicates the effect on overall climate, but latitude is pretty much the only thing that matters for solar power.)
        gpm 2y ago
        Solar panels are mildly more efficient when colder, the same latitude in an area with similar cloud cover in north America is probably generally slightly better for solar than Europe because it is colder, not sure if it would ever be more than a rounding error though.
        Scoundreller 2y ago
        I’ve been in northern France for a couple weeks in a January and didn’t see the sun once… Not really a thing in Toronto.
        maigret 2y ago
        Solar panels don’t need sunshine they need light.
- thrtythreeforty 2y ago
  In jurisdictions where that's not legal, can you realistically maintain a connection for just the cost of the customer fee and draw no other power? Or are there typically other roadblocks to installing solar in such places?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- chickenbig 2y ago
  > Totally disconnected, zero power bill. Great job! Over the last half a year my feelings about rooftop grid-connected solar (net energy metering, feed in tariff which are subsidised by the electricity bills of others) have changed somewhat, but going off-grid you've put in the investment to be energy independent.

GaggiX 2y ago

>I purchased pallets of used panels for more or less the cost of transportation ($34 per panel 270w) For comparison, I've seen pallets of new 24 410w panels at 58€ per panel (transportation included), hopefully I'll see similar deals in the future when I will ready to jump into solar. Edit: I'm mostly worried because I don't know how sustainable the industry is when you can buy solar panels at such dirt cheap prices.

davedx 2y ago
It’s not sustainable. Solar panel producers are going to be in big trouble in 8-10 years I think.
- oezi 2y ago
  In the 8 to 10 years panels will be even cheaper. Probably half of today. The price trajectory is still falling.
  - GaggiX 2y ago
    >Probably half of today. A 410W solar panel at 29€? I really doubt that honestly. Cheaper than plywood.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Efficiency going up is one way to reduce instillation costs which grid scale solar really cares about. 470W + even cheaper inverters seems likely.
    - DaoVeles 2y ago
      This is not shade on the original comment. But I do find it funny when economists that extrapolate out to infinity. Comely divorced from the real world materials and ecology.
    - oezi 2y ago
      Economies of scale baby. Another 10x more in production another 30% less in price.

pineaux 2y ago

How is this cheap? How much did you pay for the whole package?

duffpkg 2y ago
That does not include the costs for inverters and other electrical system parts. I am not endorsing these vendors but I am happy with the result. My system paid for itself in less than 18 months. I have many years of experience buying from China in industry. I purchased batteries from Docan Power and BMS/battery housings from EEL Battery. My inverters are from EG4 and UL listed. You can see current pricing on their respective websites. I would say there is some learning curve for a complete novice. The diysolarforum.com is a good vendor neutral and honest resource for information.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
> How is this cheap? It's $900 + inverters for 10 kWh. A Tesla Powerwall 2 (14 kWh) is $10k (inverter included). I doubt the inverters cost more than $1k.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

Why tesla charges 5x for their Powerwall? I know their software is excellent, but I haven’t seen prices like that anywhere.

specialist 2y ago
My guess: to throttle demand. Installers are generally in short supply and huge demand. So why not charge a premium?
rootusrootus 2y ago
Because there's value in a brand name, they are using more expensive batteries (or they were, I think just recently they started shipping LFP), and you're paying for the plug-and-play convenience. Buying cells from CATL, adding a BMS, and putting all in a case is easy but still not trivial. Definitely not plug and play. You can absolutely get dirt cheap LFPs (like other people, I hang out on diysolarforum.com too), but it is not a competitor with the Powerwall unless you want something to tinker with or are simply too budget constrained to buy the brand name product.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago
  I think OP mentioned battery rack (not cells) with BMS, not pure cells.

blacksmith_tb 2y ago

Sounds great, but are there actual businesses who will come to your home and do an install, or do you need to to become a mad-scientist electrician and DIY? I got quotes on getting an LG system a few years ago and it was 4X these prices (also for me a problem is that my 'ancient' panels from 2013 use a single inverter instead of microinverters, so if I touch the system I have to replace it all). I keep hoping there will be a bunch of small businesses electrifying everything, I'd love to see - good, practical, safe - EV conversions driving around too, but it just doesn't seem to be materializing.

duffpkg 2y ago
All of the quotes and interactions I had with the local solar installers were reminiscent of the used car lot if not outright fraud. I was able to do what was permissible myself and a regular licensed electrician did the rest. The equipment is UL listed. There was some learning curve but I found the diysolarforum.com to be a pretty good resource to learn what I didn't know. I ran the whole setup standalone for about 6 months before switching the house over to it. The only problem that happened was a loose battery cable connection which the BMS and inverter alerted to and handled correctly.
- GaggiX 2y ago
  What voltage are you running your solar strings at? I was wondering what would happen if the loose cable was a cable from the solar panels instead of the low voltage battery.
  - duffpkg 2y ago
    The panel strings are at ~500v so there are safety, fusing and grounding considerations. Pretty common electrical equipment and cable is rated for use at 600v. There are special locking water resistant connectors for solar panels called MC4.
    - GaggiX 2y ago
      Are the hybrid inverters you are using be able to detect arc faults (in series) from the strings? Running 500V DC is probably by far the most dangerous thing in your setup, fortunately your solar panels are mounted on the groud.

kkfx 2y ago

Well, here, France, LFP batteries now cost MUCH MORE than just three years ago (final customer price) and... ~1000€ per kWh, while just 3 years ago they was a bit less than 700€ per kWh, the battery alone (with BMS etc) but we also need an inverter witch as well is not much more expensive and I talk about self-assembled systems, here legal, but not legal in large slice of the EU, because retail price of a complete installed system by some p.v. companies are so high that there is no economical reason to install them. My system is 5kWp/8kWh @11.500€ three years ago, it would be now a bit different (400V batteries instead of 48V and a hybrid inverter instead of a p.v. string inverter AC coupled with a battery inverter) @~ the same price due to a single inverter and slightly cheaper p.v. modules (@~100€ for a 415Wp). If done by third parties the cheapest proposal back than was ~30.000€. At this prices given current electricity prices and local grid stability it's a nonsense, it's even cheaper a diesel generator. I know prices in China are FAR lowers, and I've read also on far lower Thailand prices, but compared to local cost of life I can't quantify how much.

callmemclovin 2y ago
Well with the DIY route that's not a problem - nkon.nl is shipping to France as well, I guess? So there you can get EVE 280 Ah cells for about 100 €/kWh: https://www.nkon.nl/fr/rechargeable/lifepo4/prismatisch/eve-lf280-prismatic-280ah-280a-lifepo4.html https://www.nkon.nl/fr/rechargeable/lifepo4/prismatisch/eve-...
- kkfx 2y ago
  Unfortunately DIY is limited to what is certified in France, Victron MultiPlus are certified all, Quattro so far are not, the sole battery from this shop allowed for a grid-connected system are the Pylontech. Still MUCH cheaper than what I've found from French shops anyway so a big thanks :-)
oulipo 2y ago
This is why at https://gouach.com https://gouach.com we've built the first easy-to-repair, easy-to-swap-cell battery! We're launching a Kickstarter soon, stay tuned (on our newsletter!)

MichaelNolan 2y ago

When you say $89/kwh, are you talking about just cells, or assembled packs? I’m just about to buy a 5kw Lifepo4 server rack battery from EG4 for a diy project. It’s closer to $220/kwh This is what I’m planning to buy, but you know something better I’d love to take a look. https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48...

duffpkg 2y ago
It would be for the completed battery units with BMS. You would have to install the batteries into the battery cases. It is a bit tedious but it was otherwise straightforward. The batteries are extremely heavy. I have always had good experiences with signature solar. My inverters are EG4 and I am very happy with their product after trying A LOT of others. I think the primary reasons for the price difference is that you are purchasing US inventory (it's already here), it's preassembled and warrantied as a unit, they provide pretty decent support and their battery packs use 100ah cells instead of 280ah+ cells. So you are buying ~3x as many BMSs, connecting cable ($$$$) and cases for the same power. Their rackable units are not light but can be moved by a capable person without too much fuss. A fully loaded 280ah unit in it's case is over 250lb so you really need a lift cart or such. The 280ah units and now maybe 320ah are more economical.
cyberax 2y ago
Do you know if these batteries be used as a replacement for batteries of a lead-acid UPS? I have a Tripp-Lite rack-mount UPS with an extension battery, but its battery has degraded and it can only sustain my computing load for 3-4 hours. It'd be great to replace it with an LFP battery.
- rini17 2y ago
  I have seen Na-ion replacements for lead-acid, the chemistry is forgiving enough for that. No idea how good are they.
- duffpkg 2y ago
  For that low a power need Anker and some others make ready to go units you can buy off of amazon that are pretty reasonable.

oezi 2y ago

Current European/German prices for home storage of 2-10kwh are at 400-500 EUR per kwh. https://geizhals.de/?cat=bmseswresp&sort=t&hloc=at&hloc=de&v=e&pg=1 https://geizhals.de/?cat=bmseswresp&sort=t&hloc=at&hloc=de&v...

moffkalast 2y ago
So... about 30k for 60kwh to cover 30kwh daily use with solar charging, and probably another 10k for installation. Hmm yes super cheap, might impulse buy later.
- oezi 2y ago
  Unlikely that you need more than 10kwh. You just want to cover morning and evening electricity consumption. During the day you recharge and consume directly.
  - iamthemonster 2y ago
    Absolutely agree - I think people fall into a major fallacy with sizing their battery systems. Their power consumption probability* distribution is skewed, and they think their battery needs to be sized for 99% or 100% of their daily consumptions. This gives a drastically oversized battery. Instead, a simple approach is to download the daily power consumption for a year and size the battery for about your 80th-90th percentile consumption. You tend to find the sizing is not that sensitive to whether you go for 80th or 90th percentile, and in any case the batteries come in standard sizes. If you've sized your battery system economically, it should be empty a good proportion of the time, but that just doesn't "feel right" to consumers. * Yes I mean frequency not probability but I didn't want to cause confusion with electrical frequency
    - mapt 2y ago
      Maintaining reliable access to off grid electricity and going net zero are very different applications requiring very different expenditures. Both are valid choices, but going net zero relies on a great deal of grid infrastructure investment and maintenance, and the understanding is that utilities in high home solar areas will rapidly de-emphasize per-kwh pricing in favor of per-month access pricing.

pshirshov 2y ago

> $89/kwh shipped/duty paid Sorry what? Currently I'm happy to buy 5 kWh units for €1300.

Aurornis 2y ago

I’ve followed the super cheap Chinese battery options for a while. It’s amazing how cheap they can be, but at the same time the number of early failure stories is alarmingly high. Getting a warranty exchange is hit or miss. It feels a lot like gambling. You might get one that works for a thousand cycles without issues. You might get one that fails after a week. You might be able to get a warranty replacement, or you might spend hours every week trying to make progress on a warranty claim without any luck. You’re right that there’s a lot of opportunity if you’re willing to buy used panels, Chinese batteries, and do all of your own work. However, the cost of equipment is falling while the costs of labor are rising, which is why professionally installed systems are still expensive.

duffpkg 2y ago
There is a lot of information on this on the diysolarforum.com but if you purchase name brand cells, CATL/EVE from a good supplier these are the same ones used by all industry. They have a very good track record. I do not advocate buying from any random seller on aliexpress. There are not any mass market non-chinese batteries available for sale. Virtually all solar equipment of any fashion is chinese made.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  That’s the forum I followed. The failures often came from BMS or other parts, too. There’s a lot of focus on the cells, but people are buying whole packs with a BMS.
  - h0l0cube 2y ago
    Then that’s more the issue with the BMS rather than the cells
    - samatman 2y ago
      Problems with the BMS can become problems with the cells very quickly.

ValentineC 2y ago

> Lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate) batteries for the home are pretty cheap as of today. Power storage for residential use in a 48v metal rackable linkable system with battery management system (BMS) is $89/kwh shipped/duty paid from reputable chinese suppliers CATL/Seplos etc. I'm probably not the only one wondering: does ordering from these Chinese suppliers require reaching out to them over email? I looked at both websites, and while Seplos asks to write in, CATL doesn't even have battery listings or sales contact information. I'd love to order LiFePo4 batteries to put in some old UPSes of mine.

jjeaff 2y ago
you can order through Alibaba, but there are so many suppliers and not all are reputable, so it's a good idea to search around on some of the solar forums for recommendations.
callmemclovin 2y ago
Yeah I think if you want to order from CATL directly, your chances for a reply are better if your order is worth some billions :-) EVE cells are very famous in the DIY scene, you can get them via Alibaba/Aliexpress, or if you're in Europe from nkon.nl, they have a very good reputation.

hippich 2y ago

Can you share places the I can get 1kwh if batteries for 89/kw shipped? I am waiting for a 14kw diy build set at 122/kw, that's the best I could find on Alibaba

luke541 2y ago

89$/kWh seems way too low. If I'm mistaken please point out where I could buy them cause I'll gladly buy some. On well known Chinese market places the price is 5x to 10x that (I live in Europe)

tarasglek 2y ago

What's a good cheap invertor vendor from china these days? We are looking at ordering a lot of these systems in Ukraine to deal with russian attacks on power grid