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This is a nice, data heavy summary of the situation! Something that stood out to me: there's been a marked decline in state and local funding for NYCT since be

This is a nice, data heavy summary of the situation! Something that stood out to me: there's been a marked decline in state and local funding for NYCT since before COVID. I wasn't fully aware of just how much the city and state had independently cut back: it looks like NYCT part of MTA alone is receiving $3B less per year than it was in 2019. Congestion pricing is sound policy regardless, but this hammers home the perception that NYS treats the MTA (and NYCT in particular) as a financial sponge that can be squeezed for spare change whenever a boondoggle needs funding somewhere else.

timbo1642 2y ago
Its nothing but a scam and anyone that supports it is completely heartless. It makes people poorer and nothing else. NYC has the national guard at its subways because its so dangerous. Its beyond dangerous still during many times. It is also always fucked up and is late or it breaks or other issues. Its not that reliable. Its just a scam to grab money from already broke people that are suffering and only awful people support this because they can't think for themselves and are followers.
- katbyte 2y ago
  Did the subway get drastically worse in the last few years or something? Last time I was in NYC I stayed in Harlem and either biked or took the subway everywhere I needed to go. It was.. fine?
  - thebigman433 2y ago
    No, but the media coverage surrounding cities has decayed to an absolutely abysmal level, so every single issue on the subway gets 48 hours of coverage or more, and the current governor is awful, so she thinks things like sending in the national guard to stand around will help
  - immibis 2y ago
    It's just propaganda - downvote and ignore it, but don't ignore the worrying amount of propaganda spread implied by seeing this on HN.
  - lancesells 2y ago
    Not at all. Subway seems to have less people on it but it's still very safe, especially considering it's a 24/7 train.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    The subway was in a "crisis" operating mode from 2017 to 2021[1]. I've lived in the city for my entire life, and subjectively the "crisis" label was accurate for that period (in terms of timeliness, breakdowns, station decay, overcrowding pre-COVID, etc.). That ended, in part, because the MTA received a huge operating boost from federal COVID funds, which are now (4 years later) running dry. So we haven't seen the return to the 2017 subway yet, but we almost certainly will if essential maintenance and system improvements are once again deferred to keep the lights on. As with everything about public infrastructure: the best and cheapest time to fund infrastructure is before it breaks. If the subway is allowed to continue to fall into disrepair, it'll only cost us more down the road. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932021_New_York_City_transit_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932021_New_York_Cit...
- yunwal 2y ago
  The NYC metro is a far, far safer way to travel than driving. 121 people die in traffic yearly in New York City. In the highest-crime year in recent memory (2022) there were 10 deaths in the metro. Generally it's 2 or 3 yearly.
- sleepydog 2y ago
  Can I ask, do you live in NYC and take the subway?
seoulmetro 2y ago
Congestion pricing is cutting off the nose to spite the face. It's dumb, but it does "stop the problem", the same way charging 5x more for petrol would, or closing all the highways into the city.... whilst also hurting a bunch of people.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  This hasn't played out in other cities, so I don't know why you think this. Notably, NYC congestion pricing does not affect the highways into the city: if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid, where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you.
  - evanelias 2y ago
    > if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid That's technically true, but it ignores the fact that both the Lincoln Tunnel (495) and Holland Tunnel (78) require you to enter the city grid. With the way the congestion pricing was designed, if you take either of those tunnels, there's no way to avoid the congestion pricing fee -- this was confirmed multiple times in FAQs and Q+A's. I'm mostly in favor of congestion pricing, but I really think they need to figure out a better solution for that tunnel issue.
    - detourdog 2y ago
      I think you should take either the Verrazano bridge exit off 95 or continue north to 87. The idea is to avoid driving through Manhattan planning one's trip accordingly should work. The only reason to take either tunnel is to reach Manhattan.
      - spyspy 2y ago
        I really wish there was a tunnel between jersey and Brooklyn. Every option sucks for that. You either end up stuck in traffic in Staten Island, manhattan, or queens.
onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
MTA operates at a ~$600B loss. How is the city using it as a sponge to pay for other things? I'm all for funding mass transit. But the city is not using MTA revenue to pay for other things.
- mechagodzilla 2y ago
  I think you are off by a factor of 1000 - MTA lost $600M (not B!) last year.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  MTA definitely doesn’t have 600B to lose, so I’m assuming you mean million. And it’s not the city; the MTA is run by the state. So the city can’t use it to pay for other things, but the state can both divert and reappropriate its budget. Take a look at the third image in the post: both state and local funding from the MTA have been reduced in recent years, dating back to the FY before COVID. Similarly, here’s an example of the state using MTA as a piggy bank for upstate ski resorts[1]. [1]: https://jalopnik.com/new-york-mta-gave-millions-to-bail-out-upstate-ski-reso-1796789185 https://jalopnik.com/new-york-mta-gave-millions-to-bail-out-...
  - joenot443 2y ago
    If you dig in a bit, it's a fairly minor scandal. There are much, much better summaries elsewhere. I've gotta point out though, the writing in that article is truly abhorrent. This is the weird Frankenstein of The Onion and Gawker that was picked up by private equity, right? The web is a better place without this style of publication, I think. I'd encourage you to get your news somewhere else my friend :) This reporting makes Buzzfeed look Pulitzer worthy.
    - woodruffw 2y ago
      I don't normally read Jalopnik; there's a Gothamist article on the payment as well, but it was paywalled. (I happen to agree it's a fairly minor scandal. It's intended to be demonstrative of the MTA's inability to protect its budget.)

timbo1642 2y ago

Its nothing but a scam and anyone that supports it is completely heartless. It makes people poorer and nothing else. NYC has the national guard at its subways because its so dangerous. Its beyond dangerous still during many times. It is also always fucked up and is late or it breaks or other issues. Its not that reliable. Its just a scam to grab money from already broke people that are suffering and only awful people support this because they can't think for themselves and are followers.

katbyte 2y ago
Did the subway get drastically worse in the last few years or something? Last time I was in NYC I stayed in Harlem and either biked or took the subway everywhere I needed to go. It was.. fine?
- thebigman433 2y ago
  No, but the media coverage surrounding cities has decayed to an absolutely abysmal level, so every single issue on the subway gets 48 hours of coverage or more, and the current governor is awful, so she thinks things like sending in the national guard to stand around will help
- immibis 2y ago
  It's just propaganda - downvote and ignore it, but don't ignore the worrying amount of propaganda spread implied by seeing this on HN.
- lancesells 2y ago
  Not at all. Subway seems to have less people on it but it's still very safe, especially considering it's a 24/7 train.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- woodruffw 2y ago
  The subway was in a "crisis" operating mode from 2017 to 2021[1]. I've lived in the city for my entire life, and subjectively the "crisis" label was accurate for that period (in terms of timeliness, breakdowns, station decay, overcrowding pre-COVID, etc.). That ended, in part, because the MTA received a huge operating boost from federal COVID funds, which are now (4 years later) running dry. So we haven't seen the return to the 2017 subway yet, but we almost certainly will if essential maintenance and system improvements are once again deferred to keep the lights on. As with everything about public infrastructure: the best and cheapest time to fund infrastructure is before it breaks. If the subway is allowed to continue to fall into disrepair, it'll only cost us more down the road. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932021_New_York_City_transit_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%80%932021_New_York_Cit...
yunwal 2y ago
The NYC metro is a far, far safer way to travel than driving. 121 people die in traffic yearly in New York City. In the highest-crime year in recent memory (2022) there were 10 deaths in the metro. Generally it's 2 or 3 yearly.
sleepydog 2y ago
Can I ask, do you live in NYC and take the subway?

seoulmetro 2y ago

Congestion pricing is cutting off the nose to spite the face. It's dumb, but it does "stop the problem", the same way charging 5x more for petrol would, or closing all the highways into the city.... whilst also hurting a bunch of people.

woodruffw 2y ago
This hasn't played out in other cities, so I don't know why you think this. Notably, NYC congestion pricing does not affect the highways into the city: if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid, where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you.
- evanelias 2y ago
  > if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid That's technically true, but it ignores the fact that both the Lincoln Tunnel (495) and Holland Tunnel (78) require you to enter the city grid. With the way the congestion pricing was designed, if you take either of those tunnels, there's no way to avoid the congestion pricing fee -- this was confirmed multiple times in FAQs and Q+A's. I'm mostly in favor of congestion pricing, but I really think they need to figure out a better solution for that tunnel issue.
  - detourdog 2y ago
    I think you should take either the Verrazano bridge exit off 95 or continue north to 87. The idea is to avoid driving through Manhattan planning one's trip accordingly should work. The only reason to take either tunnel is to reach Manhattan.
    - spyspy 2y ago
      I really wish there was a tunnel between jersey and Brooklyn. Every option sucks for that. You either end up stuck in traffic in Staten Island, manhattan, or queens.

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago

MTA operates at a ~$600B loss. How is the city using it as a sponge to pay for other things? I'm all for funding mass transit. But the city is not using MTA revenue to pay for other things.

mechagodzilla 2y ago
I think you are off by a factor of 1000 - MTA lost $600M (not B!) last year.
woodruffw 2y ago
MTA definitely doesn’t have 600B to lose, so I’m assuming you mean million. And it’s not the city; the MTA is run by the state. So the city can’t use it to pay for other things, but the state can both divert and reappropriate its budget. Take a look at the third image in the post: both state and local funding from the MTA have been reduced in recent years, dating back to the FY before COVID. Similarly, here’s an example of the state using MTA as a piggy bank for upstate ski resorts[1]. [1]: https://jalopnik.com/new-york-mta-gave-millions-to-bail-out-upstate-ski-reso-1796789185 https://jalopnik.com/new-york-mta-gave-millions-to-bail-out-...
- joenot443 2y ago
  If you dig in a bit, it's a fairly minor scandal. There are much, much better summaries elsewhere. I've gotta point out though, the writing in that article is truly abhorrent. This is the weird Frankenstein of The Onion and Gawker that was picked up by private equity, right? The web is a better place without this style of publication, I think. I'd encourage you to get your news somewhere else my friend :) This reporting makes Buzzfeed look Pulitzer worthy.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    I don't normally read Jalopnik; there's a Gothamist article on the payment as well, but it was paywalled. (I happen to agree it's a fairly minor scandal. It's intended to be demonstrative of the MTA's inability to protect its budget.)