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EU Council has withdrawn the vote on Chat Control
- cescott997 2y agoThe fight is not over yet, if you live in the EU, please vote these people out of office. They do not represent you, nor the general public.
- avianlyric 2y agoYou can’t vote Council Members out of office. The council is made up of the heads of state for each member country. Depending on the exact flavour of democracy your state operates, will determine if their role is directly elected or not. There are many countries where the head state isn’t directly elected, and even where they are directly elected, there many more pressing national issues that make other candidates even more unsavoury.
- toyg 2y ago> You can’t vote Council Members out of office. Well, technically you can, just not through EU institutions. Chances are the current French members, for example, will not be there for the next round of Council votes.
- margana 2y agoThis is not correct. At least in most (did not check every country) countries that do not directly elect the head of state, the head of government (who is directly elected) is the council member instead. Edit: of the 27 council members who are the representatives of their respective countries, only 4 are heads of state (all of them directly elected), the other 23 are heads of government, who are directly elected.
- avianlyric 2y agoEven heads of government are often not directly elected. Plenty of parliamentary democracies select their head of government based on which ever party got the most votes, and thus their leader becomes the head of government. In Germany for example you don’t vote for the chancellor directly, you vote for local politicians and nation wide parties, and the winning party or coalition then decides who becomes the head of government. But at no point is there a direct vote to choose the chancellor.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dbttdft 2y agoAh, so I won't just have all of private conversations monitored for no reason at birth, oh wait, but what about those 40 cameras that are on every residential street owned by Amazon and Google?
- zdragnar 2y agoThe chat applications in question are private spaces (with terms based on the owner / host of the space). Streets are public spaces, with all the possibility of observation by an observer that entails. The two are not at all similar, at least under US law. It seems the EU is taking a similar stance.
- aDyslecticCrow 2y agoI'd rather have a public camera in my bedroom than a recording of every conversation I've ever had with anyone stored and searchable by governments, police, and the inevitable dark scammer for all eternity. That is not to say that cameras everywhere aren't dystopian. But their existence doesn't undermine the added danger of chat control.
- nemo44x 2y agoThey’ll probably just rejigger it in the name of fighting the “far right” and it will pass through with celebrity and pomp.
- dinglestepup 2y agoOff-topic, but the current trend to label anything the government disagrees with or feels threatened by as "far right" is very worrisome.
- Hamuko 2y agoDid you miss the election? The parliament is more conservative than before. Why would they be happier with that packaging?
- meepmorp 2y agoBecause they're not really complaining about the specific law or circumstances around it so much as expressing their personal sense of grievance?
- Havoc 2y agoSo I guess see you in three months for another round?
- sandworm101 2y agoI'd bet good money that the bulk of European intelligence people use Signal, both personally and for non-classified work stuff. So the announcement that Signal would pull out of Europe was probably more influential than anyone will acknowledge.
- lawn 2y agoPoliticians themselves tend to use Signal too...
- sharpshadow 2y agoReading the "...European Commission proposed monitoring all chat messages and other forms of digital communication..." astonishes me every time.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- WaitWaitWha 2y ago. . . for now. "... The proposal will return to the drawing board, as the European Commission and the European Parliament continue to deliberate on the best way forward." I am always fascinated by the hubris bureaucrats have.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- rdm_blackhole 2y agoThey have to justify their jobs. I mean there are 30000 lobbyist working everyday in Brussels... They are not there to look at the architecture.
- meindnoch 2y agoThey will try again.
- ls612 2y agoIt didn't even get to the point this time where messenger apps threatened to leave. That was what ended up sinking the UK effort last year.
- jacooper 2y agoIt didn't change anything, the law passed. OFCOM just has to activate the clause in the law to backdoor e2ee apps.
- ThatMedicIsASpy 2y agoUEFA finals should be a great day!
- owisd 2y agoIt's going to keep coming back for as long as social media makes it easy for adults to find kids' they don't know's accounts.
- llm_trw 2y agoIt's going to come back as long as politicians want to control what you can think. The children are a trojan horse.
- daemin 2y agoThis will never happen in reality, but one way to make sure a bill like this doesn't get through is to not allow for any exceptions to being surveiled. So politicians and security people will be treated just like the population at large and have their communications monitored. I mean, think of the children, how bad would it be if a trusted member of society ended up peddling the bad images. So in that respect they need to be surveiled as anyone else.
- _Algernon_ 2y agoCircle of accountability
- johnisgood 2y ago> The discussions will resume after the summer, once the new Parliament is seated and Hungary assumes the Council presidency from Belgium in July. Hungary has already committed to developing a comprehensive legislative framework to prevent and combat online child sexual abuse and revising the directive against the sexual exploitation of children. Such as? Does it have anything to do with what "Chat Control" is about? What does Hungary have anything to do with it?
- thririrn 2y agoHungary is set to fight child grooming and exploitation, that is centralised in a few organisations. Very opposite from global dragnet surveillance to "protect children". And as post soviet country, they are very strict about privacy laws, and protecting civil rights!
- SkyMarshal 2y agoHungary currently seems pro-Russian and pro-authoritarian/strongman. Will they really be strict about protecting civil and privacy rights?
- redeeman 2y agowouldnt trust ANY government, but nothing to indicate they are in any way worse than the current ones, which did after all come up with the abomination that is chat control
- CAP_NET_ADMIN 2y agoI think it lacks /s at the end.
- Macha 2y agoIt's probably worth reflecting on some of the things Hungary considers to be child grooming and exploitation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_anti-LGBT_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_anti-LGBT_law
- 2y ago
- SkyMarshal 2y agoCoincidentally, a "leak" was reported yesterday suggesting EU MP's intend to exempt "confidential" govt info, as well as police, intelligence, and military personnel from Chat Control: https://www.eureporter.co/business/data/mass-surveillance-data/2024/04/15/leak-eu-interior-ministers-want-to-exempt-themselves-from-chat-control-bulk-scanning-of-private-messages/ https://www.eureporter.co/business/data/mass-surveillance-da...
- thomasdeleeuw 2y agoAhh, we are against violence, except when it is applied to people we don't agree with. We are against surveillance, it is only to be applied to people not in our group. We are for freedom of speech, but only if you agree with us. The list goes on.
- zer00eyz 2y agoI keep wanting to hand out copies of 1984. In reading your comment, it suddenly dawned on me that 1984 has turned into a how to manual for modern governments, much the way The Prince is misinterpreted today.
- phero_cnstrcts 2y agoWe’re not far off the previous Revolution mentioned in the book.
- 0rzech 2y agoPeople interested in "Nineteen Eighty-Four" by George Orwell might also be interested in "Limes inferior" by Janusz A. Zajdel, "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and "Animal Farm: A Fairy Story" by George Orwell.
- causal 2y agoPerhaps my biggest criticisms of 1984 is that it tends to make the reader fixate on some group of evil conspirators at the top, at the expense of understanding the banality of evil. I think this portrayal sows distrust in real democracy through presumption of evil intent.
- perlgeek 2y agoThis will be very unpopular with the HN crowd, please please bear with me. I really like e2e-encrypted communication. I also think that in the past decades, in general, most policies have erred too far on surveillance and too little on privacy BUT I also think that CSAM material on e2ee channels is a real problem. If we, as the pro-privacy tech community don't come up with solutions, we'll lose the battle, eventually. There'll come up a case of child exploitation or trafficing, somehow related to encrypted chats, and it'll be so horrific that the public will be swayed to action, and then what are the options? Is there any option besides client-side scanning or the end of e2ee?
- freilanzer 2y ago> If we, as the pro-privacy tech community don't come up with solutions, we'll lose the battle, eventually. No, this would be losing the battle. There is no other solution that doesn't compromise encryption.
- deutschepost 2y agoMaybe you should stop thinking that this is a technical problem to be solved. It is a problem with society, that these people can exist. You could just as well ban sharp knives, so that no one can be stabbed anymore. After that you would still live in a world where people get killed and we all use butterknives to cut our bread. Edit: also everytime a politician talks about children you should think about this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children Hungary is next in line for presidency and wants Chat Control pretty bad. Who says that these Scanners can only be used to look for CSAM? I’m pretty sure the Hungarian government is also interested in people sending pride flags. Let’s see how that works out…
- sambazi 2y agoexactly! i imagine that the demand for problematic imagery is bound by similar dynamics as the demand for murdering ppl with kitchen knifes.
- inglor_cz 2y ago
- miroljub 2y agoCall me cynical, but I'm sure the globalist centralist fascist powers of the time will not rest until this law, in one form or another, is passed at EU level and made mandatory for all member states. I hate this Nazification of the EU so much, that I would support my country leaving the EU the same moment this or similar legislation goes through. Lucky Brits, at least they can vote out the dumbest and most corrupt politicians and let their laws be enacted by their parliament, and not some international body that claims it has supremacy over national legislation.
- quitit 2y agoConsidering European modern history and how the EU white-washes all their tech legislation as "pro consumer rights" (it's protectionism¹ ² ³). One would think that the EU would be the last place on earth to introduce such obvious surveillance legislation.⁴ Similar proposals haven't got this close to passing in any other first world countries. I'm glad to see that many sane voices (particularly those affected worst by the Nazis) are leading a resistance against such obviously flawed legislation. ¹ https://itif.org/publications/2022/09/19/how-the-eu-is-using-technology-standards-as-a-protectionist-tool/ https://itif.org/publications/2022/09/19/how-the-eu-is-using... ² https://www.ft.com/content/9edea4f5-5f34-4e17-89cd-f9b9ba698103 https://www.ft.com/content/9edea4f5-5f34-4e17-89cd-f9b9ba698... ³ https://www.politico.eu/article/european-protectionism-trade-technology-defense-environment/ https://www.politico.eu/article/european-protectionism-trade... ⁴ https://sdw.space/europe-wants-to-end-encryption/ https://sdw.space/europe-wants-to-end-encryption/
- blackoil 2y agoThey have multiple politicians from different countries pushing for legislations, some can be "surveillance" and some "pro consumer" and some both. I would say likes of GDPR are pro consumer. Also, it is better than pro-business govt, that only acts if their lobbyists like it.
- okasaki 2y agoProtectionism? That's a funny idea but there's nothing to protect. EU doesn't have any tech companies. We're been reverse colonised by US tech Microsoft/Google/Oracle/Apple.
- zx8080 2y agoThis legislation is not the same, however resembles the Australian anti-encryption ¹ one. Which has some consequences ² for journalism (for context). 1 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18636076 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18636076 2 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20390192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20390192
- nexoft 2y agoI thought we safe and beyond these kind of considerations, especially in the EU, since the wikileaks/snowden/shelsea manning era? Aren’t we? Well, I guess you should never take something for granted…
- PurpleRamen 2y agoPeople are never beyond evil. Just the justification for why they strife for evil will change. And to be fair, with the justification, the impact can also change.
- Sammi 2y agoThese kinds of laws to ban encryption will continue to be pushed by those that want to prosecute more criminals. The drive will always be there. And it will always crash against the financial interests that want online commerce and banking to work. And so it will always fail in the end, because we can't kill our economy in order to catch more criminals. We will keep repeating this cycle. Around and around the merry go round we go.
- vorticalbox 2y agoare there any studies that show banning encryption would actually result in more criminals being caught?
- repelsteeltje 2y agoNo, but that doesn't cancel the desire for law enforcement to pry in unbreakable encryption. There is ample evidence that breaking or backdooring apps or devices (more or less specifically) targeting criminals, allows the cops to roll up huge crime networks. These are expensive and time consuming one off operations. Main stream messaging apps like Signal and Whatsapp of course rely one very similar technology so it's probably safe to assume some illegitimate stuff is happening there. I wager that finding those criminal messages in practice has a more serious issue beyond encryption: there is far too much data. And even if encryption were banned altogether, the criminals would surely find a way to whispers their mischiefs in stenography.
- popcorncowboy 2y agoYou look for your keys under the lamp post not because they're there.
- madacol 2y agoI don't think it's needed, pretty sure both sides agree it does help. The debate is whether it is worth it or not, banning encryption leaves the nation more vulnerable to authoritarian states, and even leaves its citizens communications more open to criminals because if they hack the state department that has the keys, they get access to all the comms
- m3kw9 2y agoYeah of course, now that they know all their chats can be scanned, they are balking
- mr_woozy 2y ago[dead]
- Ambroos 2y agoYesterday and early this morning there has luckily been a massive push from Belgian media. The proposal this time around came from the Belgian presidency, so it was up to them to withdraw the vote. It's unlikely we'll see any admission on why exactly the vote was withdrawn, but it's probable that the situation became untenable for the political parties involved, one of which lost massively in the Belgian elections about two weeks ago. In an short interview in De Tijd [1] with one of the Belgian MEPs pushing this (Hilde Vautmans, OpenVLD, liberal, lost big), and another short line in De Morgen [2] from outgoing Belgian Minister of the Interior who was part of the talks for this new version (Annelies Verlinden, CD&V, Christian democrats), both of them made it appear like they mostly just care about getting it done (because nobody else has succeeded yet). There is a lot of "but think of the children", and zero technical expertise. This morning, after the press attention, high rank party officials across the spectrum (and from the parties mentioned above) publicly called the proposal dangerous, so it's likely the pressure worked this time. Next time this can come up for the vote will likely be from Hungary. They are taking over the EU presidency in a few weeks, and have already said this is on the agenda for them. Considering the current political climate there I would assume they are more likely to bring it to a vote, but hopefully that vote is less likely to succeed. Still, there's no time to rest, the proposal isn't dead. [1] https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/technologie/fel-privacyprotest-tegen-eu-voorstel-om-kinderporno-aan-banden-te-leggen-droom-van-elke-dictator/10552092.html https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/technologie/fel-privacyprotes... [2] https://www.demorgen.be/snelnieuws/verlinden-buigt-voor-luide-kritiek-controversieel-eu-voorstel-om-je-berichten-te-scannen-uitgesteld~ba223aaa/ https://www.demorgen.be/snelnieuws/verlinden-buigt-voor-luid...
- qznc 2y agoGermany publicly announced they will vote No. I don’t know about others. Maybe it just became clear that it wouldn’t pass? It was a sneaky try anyways, right after the election.
- generic92034 2y agoAnd during the UEFA Euro 2024.
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- Oarch 2y agoIt feels like this has become an annual tradition...
- sva_ 2y agoI think biannual by now
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> biannual by now Makes sense given the Presidency of the Council of the EU "rotates among the member states of the EU every six months" [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_the_Council_of_t...
- Rinzler89 2y agoThe EU presidency doesn't have executionary powers like the US presidency. It can set up meetings and topics for discussion but can't enforce or shoot them down.
- eigenlicht 2y agoWhile I still believe it's mainly about attention seeking and remaining the topic of discussions on the part of the EU, which is not an easy task yet as such mildly effective as we see again, one could get the feeling there's somehow more to it. Like a collusion, however tacit or pragmatic, that would in general work both ways but in this case so as to provide national governments an opportunity to make a few extra points from time to time, (mainly) on domestic ground, and to look prudent or generous, at least to certain groups of voters. In this case a benefaction to the unlikely German "critics" in particular. Its ruling coalition certainly is desperate for it. For anything really. I already had this feeling years ago when we were wearing ourselves out on the darned question of so-called "upload-filters" amid the entire EU copyright law issue. What even became of it? Well, due to ultimately national implementation and copious room for legal interpretation, at least in Germany not much. A kind of nothingburger in fact, certainly relative to to the racket that went before, or shall we say, was supposed to go before. Back at the time it made (then) Merkel's big-coalition government suddenly look a little sunnier. To be blunt, it feels rather artificial to me and I don't expect anything like it being supposed to actually transpire no matter what. That is even without considering how unclear matters of technical realization remain, even if you've seen all the polito-pseudotechnical BS bingo there is to see at the moment. Like, how to even enforce client-side scanning when applications (or OS) are free software? It's just rubbish, and supposedly can be as no one never seriously planned for anything like it. But why not just talk the big talk about it? Maybe it helps. A few very optimistic quarters may even hope for some sort of (shallow) deterrence effect. For a bit of ruffling and scaring up the evil agents. Good luck as for that one.
- sva_ 2y ago> In July, the Council Presidency will transfer from Belgium to Hungary, which has stated its intention to advance negotiations on chat control as part of its work program. That does not make me very hopeful.
- pilsetnieks 2y ago"Make Europe Great Again". Seriously, that is the new slogan for the Hungarian EU presidency. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/18/europe/hungary-make-europe-great-again-motto-intl-latam/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2024/06/18/europe/hungary-make-europ...
- Maken 2y agoOrban never disappoints.
- HeckFeck 2y agoConnotations aside, using a well worn slogan 8 years later is uninspired. This makes it very ironic.
- AnimalMuppet 2y agoIt's even more ironic when Trump uses it. Like, weren't you supposed to do that 8 years ago? What happened? You didn't do it? Why should we think you'll do it this time? I mean, I guess it's become like a brand name. But if you think about it for a minute, it's carrying a subtext that Trump failed last time.
- kibwen 2y ago> well worn slogan 8 years later is uninspired Ironic considering that "Let's Make America Great Again" was Ronald Reagan's campaign slogan in 1980.
- UberFly 2y agoBill Clinton too I believe.
- interactivecode 2y agoWhat really gets me with these types of "safety" proposals is that we already have quite some ways to get someone's private information and communication if they are being investigated. Has everyone forgotten that? All that these wide reaching laws do is to allow for governments to investigate without substantiated reasons.
- tonetegeatinst 2y agoYep, same thing in most countries. Their exists a legal method to do it if they can get a warrant.... Or a FISA court order.....or a National Security Letter....or they can get around the need for this via just paying some data company or the company to access your data....
- gambiting 2y agoI'm fact even the German police force said that this law isn't necessary and they have all the tools they need to investigate.
- dleeftink 2y agoKeen to read a source on this, as this would be valuable to bring up whenever new data harvesting measures are on the table.
- Zak 2y agoChat Control is explicitly a proposal for a new mass surveillance mechanism, not a mechanism for targeted surveillance of a person suspected of a crime.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tzs 2y ago> What really gets me with these types of "safety" proposals is that we already have quite some ways to get someone's private information and communication if they are being investigated How does that work if I'm using an E2E encrypted messaging app?
- renegat0x0 2y agoUntil next time... We must win every time...
- ta1243 2y agoIt's called democracy. It's better than the alternative.
- guizzy 2y agoMore "democracy", where you must win every time and the issue will keep coming up again and again, but if you lose once whoops the matter will never find its way back onto the docket and you will never get a chance to have it reversed.
- abecedarius 2y agoSeveral replies say passing and repealing legislation (and regulation) is technically symmetrical. Who really thinks that's more than technically true?
- achenet 2y agoProbably a bad counter example but: Abortion got reversed recently.
- samatman 2y agoWhich is why laws should be made through legislation, not judicial fiat. The majority in Dobbs v. Jackson made it very clear that a law requiring the same principle as Roe v. Wade would be legitimate.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> if you lose once whoops the matter will never find its way back onto the docket and you will never get a chance to have it reversed The same dynamics govern passage as reversal. You keep trying until they slip up.
- zero0529 2y agoReally important! However it seems that the battle will continue in July with Hungary instead..
- 533ghghh 2y agoOrban is a true liberal - not a fake liberal. He opposes government control of private communications.
- notavalleyman 2y agoI think you might be being sarcastic, but here is the truth on the topic. Orban and his government spent a huge amount of time and effort, making private communications LESS liberal and more difficult to speak freely. https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/02/13/i-cant-do-my-job-journalist/systematic-undermining-media-freedom-hungary https://www.hrw.org/report/2024/02/13/i-cant-do-my-job-journ...
- SahAssar 2y agoOrban is authoritarian. During his rule the freedom and democracy of Hungary have taken huge steps back and the country is no longer considered "free" by for example Freedom House.
- qsdf38100 2y agoYou created a new account just to spontaneously share your love of Orban? He must be a great and very convincing person.
- jefozabuss 2y agoThe only context I see where Orban could be "liberal" is "siphoning of funds".
- plutokras 2y agoHe is infamously a self-proclaimed illiberal. But nice try. Also, I will leave here some recommended reading on the topic: > Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus, a powerful Israeli cyberweapon https://telex.hu/direkt36/2021/07/19/pegasus-nso-hungary-viktor-orban-cyberweapon https://telex.hu/direkt36/2021/07/19/pegasus-nso-hungary-vik...
- PaulKeeble 2y agoI am really fed up of governments constantly trying to pass stuff like this that is clearly a breach of the fundamental principles of human rights. Its also become almost impossible to get governments to adopt sensible positions that don't target certain sub groups to harm them.
- eigenket 2y agoIts not really governments, its specifically Ylva Johansson, the commissioner from Sweden who keeps pushing this, every time she does the rest of the EU apparatus slaps her down because it fundamentally won't work.
- uyzstvqs 2y ago[flagged]
- short_sells_poo 2y agoIt's these kind of people who really enable the far right to exist as well. Once you get to this level of lunacy, whether it's left or right is irrelevant.
- eigenket 2y agoI would argue she is behaving rationally. She has financial interests in organisations which sell chat monitoring software, they're going to make a shittone of money if her laws ever get passed. She's a standard corrupt slug, not a misinformed ideologist.
- jeltz 2y agoNo, she is just corrupt and she is not near as left-wing as that post tries to pretend. She just has financial interests in this.
- eigenket 2y agoI mean in this case the problem isn't realy any of that, its that she has financial and personal links to American organisations (Thorn and Co.) who are in the business of selling this chat monitoring software.
- irusensei 2y ago> The EU Council did not make a decision on chat control today, as the agenda item was removed due to the lack of a majority, confirmed by Council and member state spokespersons Wait so does it mean they will only propose when they have chance to pass? Is it just me or here is something really wrong with this? It has no chance to be rejected and gone for good?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> does it mean they will only propose when they have chance to pass? This is typically how legislative bodies work--it's why vote counting is an essential component of whipping. (Sorry, American political terminology.) > It has no chance to be rejected and gone for good? I have never seen a way to do this proposed that doesn't have horrific side effects. (One, who decides which issues are too similar to previously-mooted ones. Two, how do you avoid one side deliberately "spoiling" an issue to prevent the other from taking action on it in the future.) The best you can do is require a total process re-start each time. That doesn't prevent reintroduction, but it adds significant cost and delay.
- gpderetta 2y agoThe best way to do this is via constitutional protection that can't be overridden by ordinary law. The EU has a de-facto a constitution in the form of the ECHR and the various treaties, which do protect fundamental rights, but there are so many caveats on those rights that a carefully worded law always risks slipping through.
- arlort 2y ago> I have never seen a way to do this proposed that doesn't have horrific side effects There's some sort of fetishism of systems and technology on the internet and especially in technical forums like HN where people have this idea that technical solutions can fix social issues Governance systems have mostly been unchanged at their core for the past 100-200 years and people are under the impression that makes them somewhat antiquated so we definitely can fix this with some good code and automated judging. It helps that that's much easier than having to accept the responsibility of being involved and proactively interested in the work of institutions which most people find boring and not worth the effort to learn about
- alvincodes 2y agoMore people should know about this so there's even more push back when it comes to a vote
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- rdm_blackhole 2y agoThis law is going to pass at some point. They started this crap 4 years ago with Chat Control 1.0 and they won't stop trying. This is pure madness. I have decided I am not going to wait around to be spied upon by the EU so I am going set up my own server and move to FOSS IOS/Android clients since these ones are currently exempted from the draft. The hardest part will be to convince friends and family to move over though.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- jmull 2y agoThe wave of authoritarianism sweeping the world is pretty alarming. This bill (only temporarily sidelined) would treat every single person as a suspect of child porn crimes. Previously, you'd need substantial cause to put someone under heavy surveillance. People talked about how that was due to principles of civil liberty, human rights, and freedom. But apparently it was actually just because it wasn't feasible to watch everything everyone says and does all the time. Now that the technology is here to enable it, our "free democracies" can't rush fast enough to put the boot to everyone's neck all the time. Pretty obviously this is just the first step. CP is a tactical choice of the first step since practically everyone can agree on how horrible it is. (Come to think of it, this is low key exploiting the vulnerability of children -- nice one, government!) Once everything you say or do is sent to the government for review, you can bet it won't be for just that one thing only. BTW, I think the government policy makers blow past all the problems with false positives that will inevitably occur because, when your goal is control of the population not the prevention of child abuse, that's a feature not a bug. You want everyone nervous and afraid. You want the stories of the lives of innocent people ruined to circulate. That helps keeps everyone cowed.
- constantcrying 2y ago>since practically everyone can agree on how horrible it is. I certainly do, but the German government does not. They recently lowered the sentences for it, is now roughly on par with theft. Which makes this whole thing even more disingenuous. Either it is so bad that half a billion people need surveillance or it is a crime where you can get a couple of months in prison. The third option is, of course, that it is just a cynical argument.
- toyg 2y agoTbf, the German government also committed to a No vote on this proposal, so at least they are consistent.
- aktenlage 2y agoThe government not only lowered the sentence, but the "categorization" (lacking a better word) of it, downranking it from a felony. They did this, because with a felony it is not possible to stop prosecution for "possession of child porn" when common sense would suggest it, e.g. when minors send each other nude pictures of themselves. If you are 16, take a picture of your boobs, you are officially a criminal. According to this official page, those cases made up 41% of the cases: https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/2023/09/dontsendit.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/202... And if the possessor of the image is not a minor, as in case of a mother who reported nude pictures from her daughters WhatsApp group to the school principal, they had to be sentenced to at least a year of prison.
- kstrauser 2y agoOne enormous advantage of federated systems is that they can route around this idiocy. For example, I host a Mastodon server in California. There was zero chance I’d comply with EU’s law, any more than I would PRC’s. That’s their little policy, not mine.
- noirscape 2y agoMost federated systems likely wouldn't be affected by the proposal as-is. Since most of them are non-commercial, they'd be exempt from chat control as I understand it due to a resolution vote done in the European Parliament.
- kstrauser 2y agoNone of them outside the EU, even the commercial ones, would be affected by it.
- Zak 2y agoYou would avoid it. The criminals it's ostensibly meant to target will avoid it. Who won't avoid it is the hundreds of millions of Europeans who use WhatsApp as their primary means of telecommunication, many of whom don't even know what "end to end encryption" means, but effortlessly gain resistance to mass surveillance.
- kstrauser 2y agoThat’s all true. It’s also why we should have smaller networks that are resistant to a given jurisdiction’s laws. WhatsApp has offices and business presences all over the world and now they’re stuck complying with everyone’s laws. That’s a bad situation for us to be in.
- Zak 2y agoI won't argue with that, and I would certainly like for Matrix to get good enough to use as a primary messaging system. Right now, I think if I tried to convince non-technical people to use it, they would find the experience unsatisfactory.
- 127 2y agoBeing a constructive part of a democracy is not just standing in the way of every change without budging. It's also about solving problems and finding solutions. Most social and technological issues will not just magically go away if you wait and ignore them to the best of your ability.
- Zak 2y agoI believe standing in the way of mass surveillance is always constructive for democracy. Spying on the private communications of nearly every person is fundamentally incompatible with a free and democratic society.
- btown 2y agoAnd, notably, in any kind of government, a group with temporary political power will naturally want to optimize for the preservation of that power. A dampening function that resists rapid change, and specifically resists things like mass surveillance that can distort democratic processes, is a feature, not a bug.
- tomjen3 2y agoCorrect, but this is not a solution. Life imprisonment for pedos is. Execution would be better but that’s never going to fly
- Dah00n 2y agoYou sound like an awful human being.
- agile-gift0262 2y agochild abuse is not a technological issue, but a societal one. Child abuse won't stop or even be reduced by running a hash lookup or an AI model prediction before every single time a picture is sent in a chat platform. It will just introduce a new layer of complexity that bad actors can abuse.
- 2y ago